I'm now considering SB with Caldera Hellion for Aggro deck such as affinity, elves, vizir combo, etc..
Also considering Angel of sanctions to remove a big creature or any non-land permanent (Karn, Blood Moon, Lili, Ensnaring Bridge, etc...)
I think both those cards cost to much and has to little inpact. Helion destroys your own board, and cost to much. Also afinaty has much that dodges it, burn does not care etc.
Angel is bad for 5 mana. All those decks would just remove her and you are back to square one. Check back to the index and find good fringe creatures. There.is no need to re invent the wheel.
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Magus of the Moat is a reasonable option for the swarmy creature decks that also hits the various Eldrazi decks to a reasonable extent. I also lean heavily on Linvala, Keeper of Silence for each of the decks you mentioned.
I've been looking into this deck a bit and it looks really fun! My meta consists of 2 Lantern players, mono white Prison, Eldrazi Taxes, and Jund Death shadow, so I'm wondering which form of Kiki to build?
Notable points:
Lands: No changes, I'm very comfortable with this manabase. Tested Grove of the Burnwillows and simply don't like it. As I said above I am interested in testing the new GQ thing as a 23rd utility land come Ixalan.
Ramp: Still like 4 Birds/2 Noble. It seems like every deck I see nowadays is playing 1 Wall of Roots and I just didn't see the added benefit. Especially since I'm not running township I don't want too many ramp spells and I want 1 drops more to power out my 3s on time.
Core: First time I've cut down to 1 Witness from 2, the combo-chain plan is happening less than ever for me (in the value matchups just grabbing Rev or P&K immediately is usually better) so it was a bit slow and I wanted the room for a last flex card (Mindcensor). Haven't fully tested this though.
Flex: 2nd Scavenging Ooze is very good right now imo. Recently added Mindcensor as a maindeck help against Titanshift and Storm (neither are great matchups) that is reasonable on its own (messes with random fetches and the flash body is fine), it's been good so far. I kind of want to be on one less flex card maindeck but not sure what is best to cut. The Huntmaster slot has been flipping between it/Lone Missionary/Baloth as the lifegain card for burn, but could possibly simply cut it and put back the 2nd EWit or something, I've found burn to be reasonable and we have a huge number of SB cards for it in this configuration.
Spells: I liked the 1 Fiery Justice and I think it's perfectly fine but there's not much Coco or Affinity at my FNM so I have it out right now. I like 10 spells and I think the 2nd Evolution or the 1st Justice is a flex slot depending on what I'm expecting to play.
Sideboard: I think 4 Unified Will/Keranos/Linvala/Kataki/Forge-Tender/Rec Sage are mandatory. That leaves Glen Elendra and the 5 spells as pretty flex slots. The spells have all been great for me (I think an EE can definitely sneak in there depending on your meta) and Glen is super value in a lot of matchups and great against combo.
Other options: I don't have any UW in my meta but I think a Selfless Spirit is probably fine somewhere if you do. When I was playing it I cut either the 4th Wall or the 4th Voice. I tested Inferno Titan a bit and I think it's ok but better in the Moon build with more ramp. I did a tiny bit of work on the black splash with Pontiff/Sin Collector/etc. but honestly can't see a case for it over blue right now, Unified Will and Keranos are just such massive players for me in so many matchups and black doesn't offer that much that I can't find elsewhere. Another option that I think is reasonable are SB enchantments like Worship or Ghostly Prison, I tested both and like them in the right meta so something to be aware of.
Hi guys. Ive been playing different version of Kiki Chord for a while already and has been following this thread.
I know the deck is pretty versatile, being able to have responses for most matchups. But one thing in particular Ive found that our toolbox seems to be really lacking of is something to deal with plainswalkers in general. I faced an opponent who plays a mardu deck, rushing some planeswalker like Nahiri and Liliana on turn 2 or 3 with simian spirit guides. Even with a powerful hand with all the cards to search our toolbox I just struggled so hard, trying to win some time but in the hand they can succeed in defending their planeswalker until they are able to activate the ultimate ability for the win. I know that sadly there just isnt that many creatures that have good ETB effect agains planewalker. The few I can think of is first Angel of Sanctions. This one Ive tried it one of maindeck before, but basicly its just a slow card that is average in pretty much all non-planeswalker based matchup and is vulnerable to path to exile. There is also Devout Lightcaster which is an extremly powerful card but only deal with black planeswalker and not sure I want a sideboard spot for him. What others option do we have? Phyrexian revoker is just too vulnerable. Vampire Hexmage seems to be only good agains planewalkers or is it of any use in any other matchup? Now im not asking for some spells suggestion that can get rid of planeswalkers but of course a creature that we can pick with our tutors.
Let me know what are you guys experience dealing with planewalker with kiki? Any cards suggestion for the sideboard?
Hey man, I agree that walkers can be an issue for this deck. Personally I don't have much trouble with Liliana (we typically have bodies that are fine to sac like Walls or Voices and can play grindy against discard) but Nahiri and Jace/Gideon out of UW are quite annoying. I like playing SB Lightning Helix and boarding them in against these slower decks where Path is mostly useless as they can be both reach and finish off a planeswalker that gets low. Fiery Justice can also do 5 to walkers although its utility in these matchups is not nearly as good. In general I think the best way to fight the Nahiri/Jace controlling decks is to just ensure that we can stick some resilient creatures so that we can chip away at the walkers, so stuff like Sigarda, Thrun, Raging Ravine and Voice of Resurgence are good because it makes it harder for the opponent to keep the board clear and the walker at a high loyalty. Otherwise I think Revoker is reasonable but it's better against stuff like Tron (with less single-target removal) than like a mardu Nahiri deck which will have oodles of bolts and such.
If you're having trouble with Nahiri and Lili specifically I can recommend Celestial Purge in the side which is nice in a few important matchups (GDS for example) and possibly Detention Sphere in the main if you're on the blue splash (I did some testing with the card and liked it quite a bit), but unfortunately not sure what else. Let us know if you find something that works.
Hey thanks for the reply. Yeah its pretty much what I though. But mainly I was asking about chord target that you can pick in your deck thats good agains plainswalker. For spells yes I do play Celestial Purge and Fiery Justice in the sideboard but just dont draw them or often I just lost them to a discard spell. Anyways I think Im gonna focus more on learning the blue splash version. I believe this deck just need plain counterspells (Unified Will) for games 2 and 3 agains deck that play big powerful cards, its also so good at protecting our combo. I though black was a strong addition to the deck but after practicing with blue instead oh wow I just feel its so much more impactful. I really think the deck needs Glen elendra archmage and Unified Will for the bad matchups, otherwise we feel just too helpless when they hit the board with GG cards.
Oh wow this list sure is something. I must be honest here and say Im quite surprise he did perform so well with this list and hitting top 8 of a major event. Because in my eyes theres so much things that seems wrong with his list. For exemple, so many triple mana drops, that is so slow, Im a big fan of kitchen finks myself, but the card is just useless for too many matchups and is just really slow for this current meta. Doesnt play many mana dork to get his many 3 drops on turn 2. Also he isnt playing enought 2 drops IMO to have interaction with Renegade Rallier. The Orzhov Pontiff main and the Izzet Staticaster side is also weird, only one of in the 75 should be enough and the Staticaster is superior IMO. The full set of Lightning Bolt instead of Path to Exile; how does he deal with the hundreds fatty creatures in the format? Archangel of Tithes in a 5 colors version. And so on... Anyways im not here just to bash his list, Im just curious about his cards choice! But all that being said, congrats to him, Its always nice to see players performing so well with this fair deck in a meta full of unfair decks.
Unless you have a way to protect Aegis himself, they will simply kill it, and then deal with you. Specifically: Scapeshift will have number of bolts and removal post sideboard, and recent version don't rely on combo heavily, as they also have Titans, which can deal damage incrementally; Ad nauseam - if they've drawn full deck, they will have access to Pacts (of negation, slaughter), so Aegis won't stand a chance there; Storm I believe is not relying on just Grapeshots, but also on Empty the warrens, which again, Aegis is quite useless against. Even if you survive one wave, they will simply rebuild, and kill you again.
Against Scapeshift Blood Moon is the best card, against Ad Nauseam and Storm Eidolon of rhetoric is your best bet. Scavenging ooze is also quite good against Storm (if it survives couple of turns, to keep their graveyard in check). Worship is also a strong consideration against Storm, but not against Scapeshift (with enough valakuts and anger of the gods they can just clear your board) and Ad Nauseam (they can win via Laboratory Maniac).
Aegis of the Gods is fairly useless against Scapeshift. Even if you chord for it in response to their combo turn, they just destroy all your creatures and now every mountain they play is a bolt to the face. If there are two empty boards and they have valakut/lots of mountains the game is already over. We have to aggressively pressure their life total and then counter their business spells to kill them before they can get there. Playing reactively against them is a death sentence because their deck has more inevitability than almost any deck in modern.
That's kind of ok if they go for Scapeshift. If they play Titan, Aegis is useless.
Also, to your previous comment "Same thing for Ad Nauseam, you cast Chord before Ad Nauseam resolve, he have no way to kill your aegis." - they will literally have, once they've drawn their whole library.
I could potentially see Aegis as a counter for Lantern Control, but again, they side decays/creature removal against Chord, and it's kind of a fringe deck. I think it's just too narrow and fragile.
For Storm - what do you do with 20 goblins with Aegis?
I play agains TitanShift multiple time a week, Its clearly our worst matchup and Im pretty sure Aegis of the Gods will not do much here. You die to scapeshift maybe a fourth of the time. With cards like prismatic omen into plays, almost any cards they play will get their valakut or lands to kill your aegis and then continue their business like nothing happen. I think the best cards agains Titanshifts are probably enchantments like Leyline of sanctity and runned halo. Then crumble to dust and mindcensor can be good as well. Game one is just a joke for them, get lucky otherwise just go to G2. Now you can bring a full set of Unified Will, Glen Elendra Archmage and maybe fulminator/magus of the moon. Then pressure your opponent has hard as you can while holding your counters/chords to respond to their key cards.
That's kind of ok if they go for Scapeshift. If they play Titan, Aegis is useless.
For Storm - what do you do with 20 goblins with Aegis?
They will for Grapeshot everytime they can (which is always), and again, IN RESP of all the copy of Grapeshot in the stack, you cast Chord for Aegis.
Do you know, that they sometimes do it in two waves (with the help of Past in Flames)? Do you know that Storm usually boards in some amount of Empty the Warrens? And can you explain why is it better to wait for him to go off, and then Chord hoping that they go specifically for Grapeshot, instead of Chording for Eidolon after they cast first spell, and covering your bases much better? Thing about Eidolon of Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist, is that they require specifically removal spell, while Aegis of the Gods can be answered with a single Grapeshot (or Pyroclasm).
Hey there, first time poster in this thread. I've been looking to pick up this deck after coming over from the Saheeli Evolution-based lists. I've noticed there seem to be two main archetypes running around - the older/traditional version that runs Path to Exile, and then the newer high-placing lists that run mana denial in the form of Avalanche Rider, Blood Moon, and Fiery Justice. With the experience and play-testing within this thread, is one "better" positioned at the moment (or just a more competitive deck in general)? Anything special I should know about collecting/playing one list versus the other?
Hey there, first time poster in this thread. I've been looking to pick up this deck after coming over from the Saheeli Evolution-based lists. I've noticed there seem to be two main archetypes running around - the older/traditional version that runs Path to Exile, and then the newer high-placing lists that run mana denial in the form of Avalanche Rider, Blood Moon, and Fiery Justice. With the experience and play-testing within this thread, is one "better" positioned at the moment (or just a more competitive deck in general)? Anything special I should know about collecting/playing one list versus the other?
If your local field is too aggro(burn, affinity, dredge, ...), don't play my list
For big tournament like GP, nobody will expect MD blood moon, it will give you a big advantage
Hey, I've been playing your list for a couple of weeks and have had a blast, thank you. I t2 blood moon half of the games, and the other half I usually catch my opponents off-guard with fiery justice. The only drawback I have had from playing the deck has been having to hear complaints about both previously mentioned cards and how unfair they are.
I have two questions about the list. 1- If you had to choose as a MD option between Huntmaster of the fells and Pia and Kiran Nalaar, which one would you choose and why? 2- Have you ever casted Devout lightcaster succesfully? Was it a reliable tool during your testing?
Thanks!
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I think both those cards cost to much and has to little inpact. Helion destroys your own board, and cost to much. Also afinaty has much that dodges it, burn does not care etc.
Angel is bad for 5 mana. All those decks would just remove her and you are back to square one. Check back to the index and find good fringe creatures. There.is no need to re invent the wheel.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Raging Ravine
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Spells (10)
4 Chord of Calling
2 Eldritch Evolution
4 Path to Exile
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Wall of Omens
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Restoration Angel
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Creature Flex (7)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Reveillark
4 Unified Will
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Lightning Helix
2 Dusk // Dawn
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Reclamation Sage
Notable points:
Lands: No changes, I'm very comfortable with this manabase. Tested Grove of the Burnwillows and simply don't like it. As I said above I am interested in testing the new GQ thing as a 23rd utility land come Ixalan.
Ramp: Still like 4 Birds/2 Noble. It seems like every deck I see nowadays is playing 1 Wall of Roots and I just didn't see the added benefit. Especially since I'm not running township I don't want too many ramp spells and I want 1 drops more to power out my 3s on time.
Core: First time I've cut down to 1 Witness from 2, the combo-chain plan is happening less than ever for me (in the value matchups just grabbing Rev or P&K immediately is usually better) so it was a bit slow and I wanted the room for a last flex card (Mindcensor). Haven't fully tested this though.
Flex: 2nd Scavenging Ooze is very good right now imo. Recently added Mindcensor as a maindeck help against Titanshift and Storm (neither are great matchups) that is reasonable on its own (messes with random fetches and the flash body is fine), it's been good so far. I kind of want to be on one less flex card maindeck but not sure what is best to cut. The Huntmaster slot has been flipping between it/Lone Missionary/Baloth as the lifegain card for burn, but could possibly simply cut it and put back the 2nd EWit or something, I've found burn to be reasonable and we have a huge number of SB cards for it in this configuration.
Spells: I liked the 1 Fiery Justice and I think it's perfectly fine but there's not much Coco or Affinity at my FNM so I have it out right now. I like 10 spells and I think the 2nd Evolution or the 1st Justice is a flex slot depending on what I'm expecting to play.
Sideboard: I think 4 Unified Will/Keranos/Linvala/Kataki/Forge-Tender/Rec Sage are mandatory. That leaves Glen Elendra and the 5 spells as pretty flex slots. The spells have all been great for me (I think an EE can definitely sneak in there depending on your meta) and Glen is super value in a lot of matchups and great against combo.
Other options: I don't have any UW in my meta but I think a Selfless Spirit is probably fine somewhere if you do. When I was playing it I cut either the 4th Wall or the 4th Voice. I tested Inferno Titan a bit and I think it's ok but better in the Moon build with more ramp. I did a tiny bit of work on the black splash with Pontiff/Sin Collector/etc. but honestly can't see a case for it over blue right now, Unified Will and Keranos are just such massive players for me in so many matchups and black doesn't offer that much that I can't find elsewhere. Another option that I think is reasonable are SB enchantments like Worship or Ghostly Prison, I tested both and like them in the right meta so something to be aware of.
Hi guys. Ive been playing different version of Kiki Chord for a while already and has been following this thread.
I know the deck is pretty versatile, being able to have responses for most matchups. But one thing in particular Ive found that our toolbox seems to be really lacking of is something to deal with plainswalkers in general. I faced an opponent who plays a mardu deck, rushing some planeswalker like Nahiri and Liliana on turn 2 or 3 with simian spirit guides. Even with a powerful hand with all the cards to search our toolbox I just struggled so hard, trying to win some time but in the hand they can succeed in defending their planeswalker until they are able to activate the ultimate ability for the win. I know that sadly there just isnt that many creatures that have good ETB effect agains planewalker. The few I can think of is first Angel of Sanctions. This one Ive tried it one of maindeck before, but basicly its just a slow card that is average in pretty much all non-planeswalker based matchup and is vulnerable to path to exile. There is also Devout Lightcaster which is an extremly powerful card but only deal with black planeswalker and not sure I want a sideboard spot for him. What others option do we have? Phyrexian revoker is just too vulnerable. Vampire Hexmage seems to be only good agains planewalkers or is it of any use in any other matchup? Now im not asking for some spells suggestion that can get rid of planeswalkers but of course a creature that we can pick with our tutors.
Let me know what are you guys experience dealing with planewalker with kiki? Any cards suggestion for the sideboard?
Thanks
If you're having trouble with Nahiri and Lili specifically I can recommend Celestial Purge in the side which is nice in a few important matchups (GDS for example) and possibly Detention Sphere in the main if you're on the blue splash (I did some testing with the card and liked it quite a bit), but unfortunately not sure what else. Let us know if you find something that works.
Against Scapeshift Blood Moon is the best card, against Ad Nauseam and Storm Eidolon of rhetoric is your best bet. Scavenging ooze is also quite good against Storm (if it survives couple of turns, to keep their graveyard in check). Worship is also a strong consideration against Storm, but not against Scapeshift (with enough valakuts and anger of the gods they can just clear your board) and Ad Nauseam (they can win via Laboratory Maniac).
Also, to your previous comment "Same thing for Ad Nauseam, you cast Chord before Ad Nauseam resolve, he have no way to kill your aegis." - they will literally have, once they've drawn their whole library.
I could potentially see Aegis as a counter for Lantern Control, but again, they side decays/creature removal against Chord, and it's kind of a fringe deck. I think it's just too narrow and fragile.
For Storm - what do you do with 20 goblins with Aegis?
Do you know, that they sometimes do it in two waves (with the help of Past in Flames)? Do you know that Storm usually boards in some amount of Empty the Warrens? And can you explain why is it better to wait for him to go off, and then Chord hoping that they go specifically for Grapeshot, instead of Chording for Eidolon after they cast first spell, and covering your bases much better? Thing about Eidolon of Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist, is that they require specifically removal spell, while Aegis of the Gods can be answered with a single Grapeshot (or Pyroclasm).
Hey, I've been playing your list for a couple of weeks and have had a blast, thank you. I t2 blood moon half of the games, and the other half I usually catch my opponents off-guard with fiery justice. The only drawback I have had from playing the deck has been having to hear complaints about both previously mentioned cards and how unfair they are.
I have two questions about the list. 1- If you had to choose as a MD option between Huntmaster of the fells and Pia and Kiran Nalaar, which one would you choose and why? 2- Have you ever casted Devout lightcaster succesfully? Was it a reliable tool during your testing?
Thanks!