If that's the case you should probably reign your focus to be more combo oriented G1 rather than adding additional removal on top of Path and trying to maintain a toolbox as wide as I'm seeing. Also worth noting that lowering your creature count to 23-24 creatures is only weakening your ability to chord in the first 3-4 turns of a game.
This was my thinking, which is why my version is more combo-oriented, cutting most of the utility creatures and playing the bare minimum removal in favor of manadorks to ramp, walls to protect walkers and accelerate chord, Oath of Nissa to dig and ease our mana.
That being said, I cannot stress enough that this was a ROUGH DRAFT I cooked up in about 5 minutes. I'd like to test and tune it but don't have much time at the moment. I would urge others to give it a shot though. It may be that it doesn't work out at all, but we won't know until we try.
I have been testing the Kiki-coco build on xmage(ludafish's older blood moon build) lately because I felt that the magus and blood moon will be great for the upcoming expected tron and eldrazi decks. I noticed that there are tons of fatul push decks right and and it just feels bad to play against. Mainly because my mana dork gets instankilled then my turn 2 fauna shaman gets fatal pushed and I have very little mana and options to do from there besides hitting a lucky chord. It may just be because I am newer to this build (played the chord build a while) but I miss playing walls (roots and omens). If wall of omens and voice of resurgence are the main 2 drops, getting fatal pushed feel a lot less bad. Roots is similar to fauna shaman where it doesn't do much if Instakilled, but at least has the ability to ramp another dork out that turn. I know it is still very early in the new meta and there may be an abundance of people trying out fatal push but I'm wondering about trying wall of omens or wall of roots in place of fauna shaman in the coco build.. is this dumb?
It is porbably not dumb, but you will have a harder time finding silver bullits. Wall of roots interacts more with Chord of Calling. Wall of omens is a cantrip, and probably a bit out of place. You already have a lot of creatures on the ground. Once CoCo is in the picture I asume the deck is better at attacking.
I would rather run Selfles Spirit as Coco builds can have a blowout vs sweepers.
Renegade Rallier and Knight of the Reliquery also seems good.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
I have been testing the Kiki-coco build on xmage(ludafish's older blood moon build) lately because I felt that the magus and blood moon will be great for the upcoming expected tron and eldrazi decks. I noticed that there are tons of fatul push decks right and and it just feels bad to play against. Mainly because my mana dork gets instankilled then my turn 2 fauna shaman gets fatal pushed and I have very little mana and options to do from there besides hitting a lucky chord. It may just be because I am newer to this build (played the chord build a while) but I miss playing walls (roots and omens). If wall of omens and voice of resurgence are the main 2 drops, getting fatal pushed feel a lot less bad. Roots is similar to fauna shaman where it doesn't do much if Instakilled, but at least has the ability to ramp another dork out that turn. I know it is still very early in the new meta and there may be an abundance of people trying out fatal push but I'm wondering about trying wall of omens or wall of roots in place of fauna shaman in the coco build.. is this dumb?
I'm actually on the opposite side of this.. More decks thinking they can get by on 4 copies of Fatal Push and limited other removal makes cards like Voice, Finks and Eternal Witness and Collected Company that much better. If my opponent is wasting all of their removal on 1-CMC Mana Dorks and Fauna Shaman with no huge tempo-gain, the less likely they are to have answers to sticky creatures down the line.
I don't think Walls are the answer to the issue you're having though. Try it, and let me know what you think. I've tested Wall of Roots in the Shaman slots in the past and it was just way too much air that normally I'd typically be cycling through with Fauna Shaman.
I still think Fatal Push will have a much harder time to take out 3 and 4 CC creatures. If true, this will be much better for our deck then bolt is. Bolt could kill Kiki, FP kan not. Having Kiki in play for 1 to 3 turns is often enough to win.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
I have been testing the Kiki-coco build on xmage(ludafish's older blood moon build) lately because I felt that the magus and blood moon will be great for the upcoming expected tron and eldrazi decks. I noticed that there are tons of fatul push decks right and and it just feels bad to play against. Mainly because my mana dork gets instankilled then my turn 2 fauna shaman gets fatal pushed and I have very little mana and options to do from there besides hitting a lucky chord. It may just be because I am newer to this build (played the chord build a while) but I miss playing walls (roots and omens). If wall of omens and voice of resurgence are the main 2 drops, getting fatal pushed feel a lot less bad. Roots is similar to fauna shaman where it doesn't do much if Instakilled, but at least has the ability to ramp another dork out that turn. I know it is still very early in the new meta and there may be an abundance of people trying out fatal push but I'm wondering about trying wall of omens or wall of roots in place of fauna shaman in the coco build.. is this dumb?
I'm actually on the opposite side of this.. More decks thinking they can get by on 4 copies of Fatal Push and limited other removal makes cards like Voice, Finks and Eternal Witness and Collected Company that much better. If my opponent is wasting all of their removal on 1-CMC Mana Dorks and Fauna Shaman with no huge tempo-gain, the less likely they are to have answers to sticky creatures down the line.
I don't think Walls are the answer to the issue you're having though. Try it, and let me know what you think. I've tested Wall of Roots in the Shaman slots in the past and it was just way too much air that normally I'd typically be cycling through with Fauna Shaman.
I totally agree here, our deck is already good at fighting through removal heavy decks, and if the meta shifts towards Fatal Push, I belive our deck will be well positioned. Even if it dosen't, I do love a grind battle, and if the card enables new color combinations, previously unplayable, it'll be a good adition to the format
i think cards like Fatal Push make annoying creatures like Voice and Finks great. Getting your bird bolted is bad but I usually never keep 1 land 1 bird hands. Unless you know what your are playing against i think its a mistake to keep.
I have been testing the Kiki-coco build on xmage(ludafish's older blood moon build) lately because I felt that the magus and blood moon will be great for the upcoming expected tron and eldrazi decks. I noticed that there are tons of fatul push decks right and and it just feels bad to play against. Mainly because my mana dork gets instankilled then my turn 2 fauna shaman gets fatal pushed and I have very little mana and options to do from there besides hitting a lucky chord. It may just be because I am newer to this build (played the chord build a while) but I miss playing walls (roots and omens). If wall of omens and voice of resurgence are the main 2 drops, getting fatal pushed feel a lot less bad. Roots is similar to fauna shaman where it doesn't do much if Instakilled, but at least has the ability to ramp another dork out that turn. I know it is still very early in the new meta and there may be an abundance of people trying out fatal push but I'm wondering about trying wall of omens or wall of roots in place of fauna shaman in the coco build.. is this dumb?
Let us know how you get on. Most of my testing has been on xmage and after 40-50 games I've come to the conclusion that Luda's version is the best way to go.
I tested 3 versions of the deck to start with. Luda's list from about 1 month ago (the testing was about a month ago) a list which focused on chord and restoration angel instead of Company, and a hybrid list I came up with. My list was basically Luda's with wall of roots and omens in place of nobles and Voices.
Not surprisingly my version was the worst. The wall of roots were pretty bad to be honest. They were 'ok' in the slower fully chord version but luda's they had many drawbacks. First, they are a terrible card to hit with Company. Second, you can only really use them once or twice before they can't effectively block anything anyway. At that point you're better off running noble. I was also suprised by how relevant noble's exalted was as well, I really missed noble in a lot of spots.
The Chord/Resto I could see as good for a FNM type tourny, as it does have heavier hitters, (and I wish I could effectively run Pia and Siege Rhino in Luda's list ) but in a bigger tourny, you need to be doing more powerful things earlier on, and with the arrival of push, Voice just got so much better.
While i agree it has problems, i think people are sleeping on 1 huge boon of the saheeli combo: just how cheap it is with evo.
You can combo with a wall of roots and 4 lands in play. Immediately. Thats (at least a little) absurd.
U can kill turn 3 several ways without a lot of difficulty (at least, compared to some other turn 3 sequencez).
That tights up the deck quite a bit. You do go a lot more all in on the combos, since your plan b becomes so weak without resto, but theres still voice -> evo -> pia, which isnt too bad.
Idk still thinking, it just came to me that saheeli + evo is 5 mana. SO little.
Working on a list now for gp vanc.
Tho the more combo version might just plain be a worse meta call, if its all fatal push decks.
Also not sure if voice is getting tons better from fatal push, since fatal push means a lot more kalitas'.
Sure, in magical chrismas land. To do that consistantly you're going to need something like 4 walls, 4 saheeli, and 4 evo, and i guess 1 Felidar.
Now picture this, a hand full of saheelis. Or Evo's. Or in a top deck war, either of those or a wall of roots is a TERRIBLE topdeck. They do nothing on their own. You're sacrificing a hell of a lot for the possibility of maybe a turn earlier, and which combos off at sorcery speed.
Have u never played bird into wall? Thats all it takes. Or even just bird turn 1. Im not saying u need 5-6 specific cards, or multiples of the same card. Just cards we normally play. We are like 25% to have that draw.
Also my point was that u can go off with just a wall in play from absolutely nothing, and win on the spot. Thats 3 total cards. Hardly magical christmas land, which is usually 5-6 specific cards. Also wins instantly, instead of a turn later.
U dont have to play 4 at all to make that happen.
And turn 3 is a lottttt earlier than turn 5. Or even turn 4 with 3 cards, instead of needing more cards in order to have a chord turn at that point.
My point was less cards, not more.
Your argument at the end is also flawed. A handful of 4 restos is terrible against 99% of moderb draws, so it must be bad. Habing 3 chords in hand turn 3 is also bad. So is having 3 collected companies in hand turn 3.
Guess all those cards are bad. Can u imagine drawing a birds turn 5? Cards bad then, so cut it.
Now, it might not be good. But your argument against it wasnt great.
Also my point was that u can go off with just a wall in play from absolutely nothing, and win on the spot. Thats 3 total cards. Hardly magical christmas land, which is usually 5-6 specific cards. Also wins instantly, instead of a turn later.
How can you go off with just a wall in play, if half of your combo is a planeswalker?
Have u never played bird into wall? Thats all it takes. Or even just bird turn 1. Im not saying u need 5-6 specific cards, or multiples of the same card. Just cards we normally play. We are like 25% to have that draw.
Also my point was that u can go off with just a wall in play from absolutely nothing, and win on the spot. Thats 3 total cards. Hardly magical christmas land, which is usually 5-6 specific cards. Also wins instantly, instead of a turn later.
U dont have to play 4 at all to make that happen.
And turn 3 is a lottttt earlier than turn 5. Or even turn 4 with 3 cards, instead of needing more cards in order to have a chord turn at that point.
My point was less cards, not more.
Your argument at the end is also flawed. A handful of 4 restos is terrible against 99% of moderb draws, so it must be bad. Habing 3 chords in hand turn 3 is also bad. So is having 3 collected companies in hand turn 3.
Guess all those cards are bad. Can u imagine drawing a birds turn 5? Cards bad then, so cut it.
Now, it might not be good. But your argument against it wasnt great.
Feel free to prove me wrong, I'll all for new things but I don't think this is it
My argument isnt perfect I'll concede, but there are so many things worse about your combo which you don't seem to see, at such a small gain.
You still need to draw a specific selection of cards to combo off, and you seem a lot more all in for your combo to work.
I'm actually on the opposite side of this.. More decks thinking they can get by on 4 copies of Fatal Push and limited other removal makes cards like Voice, Finks and Eternal Witness and Collected Company that much better. If my opponent is wasting all of their removal on 1-CMC Mana Dorks and Fauna Shaman with no huge tempo-gain, the less likely they are to have answers to sticky creatures down the line.
I don't think Walls are the answer to the issue you're having though. Try it, and let me know what you think. I've tested Wall of Roots in the Shaman slots in the past and it was just way too much air that normally I'd typically be cycling through with Fauna Shaman.
After reading replies and some thought, I decided to just cut one fauna shaman and bump up the Voice of resurgence count to 4. I realize that fauna is amazing late game to company into and its a mistake to cut her, but I still wanted some early game value creatures i don't mind getting fatal pushed. Also getting a wall from a company feels really bad so I didn't go that route. I may have also been keeping un-optimal hands before due to lack of deck experience, but so far the testing for this list is going pretty well. Im enjoying your deck and plan to test it over the chord variant for a while unless there are big meta changes.
2-1 some kind of BUG deck
2-0 dredge (with the banned grave troll)
2-0 GB Eldrazi
I know this is to adorable to rwalibly work but...
Get god of the forge out.
Then resto/felidar for infinite damangw.
i am already trying this. even without the combo, god of forge is able to close the game out by itself with its triggers.
only problem i have during testing with the deck is i really hate cutting og sigarda and inferno titan in my naya build. i also run thragtusk and reveillark so eventually i need to cut a few of these top heavy cards for felidar and Purphoros to really streamline it.
I know this is to adorable to rwalibly work but...
Get god of the forge out.
Then resto/felidar for infinite damangw.
i am already trying this. even without the combo, god of forge is able to close the game out by itself with its triggers.
only problem i have during testing with the deck is i really hate cutting og sigarda and inferno titan in my naya build. i also run thragtusk and reveillark so eventually i need to cut a few of these top heavy cards for felidar and Purphoros to really streamline it.
I run a very odd list of kiki-chord that runs heavy on defender creatures. So i am able to sneak it out. My deck may be a very odd homebrew version of this deck, but have gone x-0 at my local game store last 5 weeks. I will post decklist once i figure ir out perfect.
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Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern RWGKiki's CastleRWG UB Turns UB GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Which problematic / tier 1 matchups does she solve? How do you expect her to stick around?
Titanshift can just bolt / anger her away, and even if you somehow manage to deal with all that, what do you name? Primeval Titan? TTB? Scapeshift?
Tron doesn't give two *****s about Meddling Mage, you name Karn they play Ugin, you name Ugin they play Wurmcoil, you name Wurmcoil they Oblivion Stone you.
In Dredge it's an obvious choice in Conflagrate. But then what? Burrenton Forge-Tender serves a similar purpose and is at least useful against bolt and anger as well. We need hardcore grave hate against them, not a needle.
Infect - useless.
Jund - completely useless.
Burn - completely useless.
She's too slow against Bant Eldrazi and again, there's nothing to name that actually impacts their gameplan enough. I don't consider that a bad matchup anyway.
On turn 2 I want to either be ramping with dorks + EWit or playing Voice / Fauna Shaman.
I would say he might be really good in a list with CoCo Phantasmal Image and/or spellscyte. Because the mage can blank the actual dangerush card, and Phantasmal or Spellscyte can deal with the one mana removal spell. And usually you can not spare the card, but CoCo generates card advantage.
I do not if Kiki-Chord is the deck for it. Perhaps Bant Spirits could pull it off.
As for naming: If you name the removal spell it just stops the removal spell, and if you name the other card you just buy tempo. Works a lot like Tidehollow Sculler.
Against tron I would just start naming Ulamog, Oblivion Stone, Karn or Ugin, but as you can see, it is rather like trying to hold a rising tide at bay.
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This was my thinking, which is why my version is more combo-oriented, cutting most of the utility creatures and playing the bare minimum removal in favor of manadorks to ramp, walls to protect walkers and accelerate chord, Oath of Nissa to dig and ease our mana.
That being said, I cannot stress enough that this was a ROUGH DRAFT I cooked up in about 5 minutes. I'd like to test and tune it but don't have much time at the moment. I would urge others to give it a shot though. It may be that it doesn't work out at all, but we won't know until we try.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I would rather run Selfles Spirit as Coco builds can have a blowout vs sweepers.
Renegade Rallier and Knight of the Reliquery also seems good.
I'm actually on the opposite side of this.. More decks thinking they can get by on 4 copies of Fatal Push and limited other removal makes cards like Voice, Finks and Eternal Witness and Collected Company that much better. If my opponent is wasting all of their removal on 1-CMC Mana Dorks and Fauna Shaman with no huge tempo-gain, the less likely they are to have answers to sticky creatures down the line.
I don't think Walls are the answer to the issue you're having though. Try it, and let me know what you think. I've tested Wall of Roots in the Shaman slots in the past and it was just way too much air that normally I'd typically be cycling through with Fauna Shaman.
I totally agree here, our deck is already good at fighting through removal heavy decks, and if the meta shifts towards Fatal Push, I belive our deck will be well positioned. Even if it dosen't, I do love a grind battle, and if the card enables new color combinations, previously unplayable, it'll be a good adition to the format
Let us know how you get on. Most of my testing has been on xmage and after 40-50 games I've come to the conclusion that Luda's version is the best way to go.
I tested 3 versions of the deck to start with. Luda's list from about 1 month ago (the testing was about a month ago) a list which focused on chord and restoration angel instead of Company, and a hybrid list I came up with. My list was basically Luda's with wall of roots and omens in place of nobles and Voices.
Not surprisingly my version was the worst. The wall of roots were pretty bad to be honest. They were 'ok' in the slower fully chord version but luda's they had many drawbacks. First, they are a terrible card to hit with Company. Second, you can only really use them once or twice before they can't effectively block anything anyway. At that point you're better off running noble. I was also suprised by how relevant noble's exalted was as well, I really missed noble in a lot of spots.
The Chord/Resto I could see as good for a FNM type tourny, as it does have heavier hitters, (and I wish I could effectively run Pia and Siege Rhino in Luda's list ) but in a bigger tourny, you need to be doing more powerful things earlier on, and with the arrival of push, Voice just got so much better.
You can combo with a wall of roots and 4 lands in play. Immediately. Thats (at least a little) absurd.
U can kill turn 3 several ways without a lot of difficulty (at least, compared to some other turn 3 sequencez).
That tights up the deck quite a bit. You do go a lot more all in on the combos, since your plan b becomes so weak without resto, but theres still voice -> evo -> pia, which isnt too bad.
Idk still thinking, it just came to me that saheeli + evo is 5 mana. SO little.
Working on a list now for gp vanc.
Tho the more combo version might just plain be a worse meta call, if its all fatal push decks.
Also not sure if voice is getting tons better from fatal push, since fatal push means a lot more kalitas'.
Now picture this, a hand full of saheelis. Or Evo's. Or in a top deck war, either of those or a wall of roots is a TERRIBLE topdeck. They do nothing on their own. You're sacrificing a hell of a lot for the possibility of maybe a turn earlier, and which combos off at sorcery speed.
Have u never played bird into wall? Thats all it takes. Or even just bird turn 1. Im not saying u need 5-6 specific cards, or multiples of the same card. Just cards we normally play. We are like 25% to have that draw.
Also my point was that u can go off with just a wall in play from absolutely nothing, and win on the spot. Thats 3 total cards. Hardly magical christmas land, which is usually 5-6 specific cards. Also wins instantly, instead of a turn later.
U dont have to play 4 at all to make that happen.
And turn 3 is a lottttt earlier than turn 5. Or even turn 4 with 3 cards, instead of needing more cards in order to have a chord turn at that point.
My point was less cards, not more.
Your argument at the end is also flawed. A handful of 4 restos is terrible against 99% of moderb draws, so it must be bad. Habing 3 chords in hand turn 3 is also bad. So is having 3 collected companies in hand turn 3.
Guess all those cards are bad. Can u imagine drawing a birds turn 5? Cards bad then, so cut it.
Now, it might not be good. But your argument against it wasnt great.
How can you go off with just a wall in play, if half of your combo is a planeswalker?
Feel free to prove me wrong, I'll all for new things but I don't think this is it
My argument isnt perfect I'll concede, but there are so many things worse about your combo which you don't seem to see, at such a small gain.
You still need to draw a specific selection of cards to combo off, and you seem a lot more all in for your combo to work.
After reading replies and some thought, I decided to just cut one fauna shaman and bump up the Voice of resurgence count to 4. I realize that fauna is amazing late game to company into and its a mistake to cut her, but I still wanted some early game value creatures i don't mind getting fatal pushed. Also getting a wall from a company feels really bad so I didn't go that route. I may have also been keeping un-optimal hands before due to lack of deck experience, but so far the testing for this list is going pretty well. Im enjoying your deck and plan to test it over the chord variant for a while unless there are big meta changes.
2-1 some kind of BUG deck
2-0 dredge (with the banned grave troll)
2-0 GB Eldrazi
Get god of the forge out.
Then resto/felidar for infinite damangw.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
i am already trying this. even without the combo, god of forge is able to close the game out by itself with its triggers.
only problem i have during testing with the deck is i really hate cutting og sigarda and inferno titan in my naya build. i also run thragtusk and reveillark so eventually i need to cut a few of these top heavy cards for felidar and Purphoros to really streamline it.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I run a very odd list of kiki-chord that runs heavy on defender creatures. So i am able to sneak it out. My deck may be a very odd homebrew version of this deck, but have gone x-0 at my local game store last 5 weeks. I will post decklist once i figure ir out perfect.
Standard
BUG SuperFriends
Modern
RWGKiki's CastleRWG
UB Turns UB
GRBU HulkBreach GRBU
Legacy
GRWBNic-ShiftGRWB
Titanshift can just bolt / anger her away, and even if you somehow manage to deal with all that, what do you name? Primeval Titan? TTB? Scapeshift?
Tron doesn't give two *****s about Meddling Mage, you name Karn they play Ugin, you name Ugin they play Wurmcoil, you name Wurmcoil they Oblivion Stone you.
In Dredge it's an obvious choice in Conflagrate. But then what? Burrenton Forge-Tender serves a similar purpose and is at least useful against bolt and anger as well. We need hardcore grave hate against them, not a needle.
Infect - useless.
Jund - completely useless.
Burn - completely useless.
She's too slow against Bant Eldrazi and again, there's nothing to name that actually impacts their gameplan enough. I don't consider that a bad matchup anyway.
On turn 2 I want to either be ramping with dorks + EWit or playing Voice / Fauna Shaman.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I would say he might be really good in a list with CoCo Phantasmal Image and/or spellscyte. Because the mage can blank the actual dangerush card, and Phantasmal or Spellscyte can deal with the one mana removal spell. And usually you can not spare the card, but CoCo generates card advantage.
I do not if Kiki-Chord is the deck for it. Perhaps Bant Spirits could pull it off.
As for naming: If you name the removal spell it just stops the removal spell, and if you name the other card you just buy tempo. Works a lot like Tidehollow Sculler.
Against tron I would just start naming Ulamog, Oblivion Stone, Karn or Ugin, but as you can see, it is rather like trying to hold a rising tide at bay.