About deck, generaly I like everything. And about missing 4th color, I was missing black vs Company, because in those games pontiff would help me so much. In two games he had around 3-4 creatures that would die to -1/-1. Also, Anafenza would be great in this MU too. I had luck to dodge dredge in rounds and T8, here Anafenza would done the job too! Im considering to add black too.
I saw some decks run only 1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I would never consider running 1 and I think 2 is the right number. For me, he is one of best cards in this deck and I would feel so bad if I play only one copy I want to Evolution Voice/Wall for Pia and Kiran and I already have it in my hand. This card is almost never wrong to be searched. Another thing what I would change in this deck is replacing Thragtusk in main with one more Restoration Angel, and maybe I would try to fit 4th Angel in Main Deck, Ruric Thar would be replaced for 4th Angel. Ruric looks silly, but he actualy helped me few times this weekend. Problem is only that I didnt have more Resto's for Tourament. Thragusk would be moved to SB I guess. Also, I would play at least 1x Engeneered Explosives in side if I had them(Grudge would be replaced).
As it said before, this deck is really strong and it can beat any other, the problem is only his popularity. If I remmeber anything I wanted to say I'll post it again.
Why would we do this? Seems like we give up a lot to play a card that we have no upside to discarding to. Brutality does do good things, but I just don't see it.
Our deck has a lot of built in card advantage, and has trouble interacting with non-creatures. Collective Brutality lets us trade card advantage for tempo (doing more ***** than we should on turn 2), and also lets us interact with non-creatures. In a version of the deck with more dead draws late (birds), it also lets us get some use out of general cards.
You could consider that deck to be a test of the hypothesis: What if we devote most of our deck to speed and let chord carry the card-advantage part?
I was legitimately just wondering why. I like Collective Brutality a lot as a card, but usually you want it in situations where discarding cards isn't the worst or where your deck is all "good stuff" and your top-decking isn't bad. It does give us a way to interact with non spells, which is great. I think it would right at home next to Lingering Souls, if we're going that deep into black.
In general, I find four color pretty greedy. Brutality might work better in an Abzan toolbox deck.
Why would we do this? Seems like we give up a lot to play a card that we have no upside to discarding to. Brutality does do good things, but I just don't see it.
It's a good card and he wanted to test it? Doubt you need much more of a reason. I know I sound snide or condescending, but actually testing cards is so much better than 'theory-crafting'. Now for some theory-crafting: feels like it would go better in a Traverse list. You know, help with delirium and Traverse helps the splash. And speaking of traverse...
With dozens and dozens of games with various Traverse lists I've come to some conclusions:
Birds + Traverse feels like too many mana sources.
Traverse + Bolts has to be correct. The early interaction is crucial to enabling delirium.
Sigil of the Nayan Gods + Traverse = a huge mana cost to enable delirium at the beginning of the game that is rarely worth it. And before you say, "I told you so." At least I put in the effort to test it.
Despite multiple protests to the inclusions of baubles(and I've tried with varying amounts), I like 4. Having both a toolbox + a consistent deck is awesome.
So, no sigils, 4 baubles, no birds. I cut back on 3 cmc. Gave myself another 2 mana cycler and re-invited baloth back:
You'd probably have to be delirious to try it though. I had remembered the arbor elf + utopia sprawl lists; add nahiri and you naturally get lot's of card types and more ways to fill up the yard. But it was just a mental exercise more than anything. Looks real fragile.
My night on your list -
2-0 Vs. White & Colorless D&T
2-1 Vs. BW Eldrazi & Taxes
0-2 vs. Junk Bogles
1-2 Vs. Saheeli Titan
2-0 Vs. Little Kid Junk (behaved like a little kid too)
2-1 Vs. Affinity
2-0 Vs. Mono Black Whatever
2-1 Vs. Ad Naus
2-1 Vs. 8 Rack
2-1 Vs. Bant Knightfall
2-0 Vs. UWR Flash (Hoogland List)
Seemed fine against the brews people are crazy on... needs MD hate vs. Graveyard. Even 1x Scooze would suffice.
Overall I was happy with the list. 3x Prisons felt heavy in the board. At least 1x Scooze in the board + 1x in the side could heavily swap the crap MUs I saw. I felt really lucky off of my Bauble draws for the most part but in some games they definitely game the knowledge I was looking for G1 at least. Linvala was the #2 under-achiever post board. Vulshcok Sorcerer is terrible.. no if ans or butts.. even in my own testing.
I'm just not sure 3 Prisons is enough to combat Dredge. I managed to get 2 rounds in against after posting and got swept through Ghostly Prisons in both sideboard games.
Fiery Justice has always been complete pile for me outside of Kiki Pod where it was extremely easy to just ignore your opponents life total.. Forked Bolt/Marrow Shards seem pretty narrow. Lavamancer may be worth testing now that you're able to load up your yard fairly quick.
You guys dislike volshok sorcerer? That effect has been extremely strong for me - so much so that I'm currently maindecking a cunning sparkmage.
Evolution for sparkmage on turn 2 against affinity or infect is just really difficult for them to beat, not to mention its utility against abzan company, elves, soul sisters, any hatebear varient, bant spirits, lingering souls decks, the mirror, and delver decks.
Even in non-targeted matchups its killing snapcasters, pressuring ad nauseums's last life point, finishing off colonnades and goyfs, and eating eldrazi scions.
Sparkmage/sorcerer is crazy strong in a lot of common matchups, and isn't a dead draw against other decks (like rhetoric, magus of the moon, etc...) Depending on your maindeck configuration it might not be needed there, but I definitely think its fantastic to have access to in the 75
Just a polite interjection and reminder that if you are not playing Chord, CoCo or Nahiri, and Gaddock Teeg isn't in your sideboard, you're probably doing it wrong.
For the record I actually have been playing a teeg in the board, in fact I think I was the first to post about him a few weeks ago.
That being said, not playing gaddock isn't "doing it wrong". The only tier 1 deck you want him against is potentially dredge, maybe jeskai.
Play him if you want your combo hate to help in the chord/company matchups or if you're more worried about through the breach than pyromancers ascension.
Everyone's points on Collective Brutality got me thinking a bit. As well, I did fairly poorly with Traverse last night and have started to miss the reliability of chord. Right now our problem areas are spell based combo, big mana decks, and Dredge. As a result, I wanted to play with Brutalities and Lingering Souls, as they synergize well and both help in at least two of those areas. Lingering Souls can help slow down the game against dredge and give us decent blockers, as well as shore up the affinity match-up and be something decent to discard to Brutality. As you all pointed out earlier, Brutality is versatile and helps against spells, can gain us life, and kill creatures. I was thinking this as a 60 I would test soon:
Hockey - I really like the direction your list is going. Lingering souls has fantastic synergy with both chord and brutality.
Just a couple of points - you're playing a toolbox deck. Testing a 60 is not very efficient when a single sideboard card can drastically swing postboard games (pontiff and rhetoric are examples). I think you would need to test a full 75 cards to really understand the strengths and weaknesses of your list.
Secondly, the manabase you suggested is approaching unrealistic territory. You need black mana early and often for souls and brutality, so you're essentally an abzan deck "splashing" for heavy red cards. Have you considered cutting red? I know you lose some sense of identity doing that, but XGGG, 2RRR, GW, and 1B is going to lose you games.
Criticism aside, I feel like brutality and souls could be really strong. Was this your brainchild? It makes we want to take another look at my old abzan archangel chord deck.
Hockey - I really like the direction your list is going. Lingering souls has fantastic synergy with both chord and brutality.
Just a couple of points - you're playing a toolbox deck. Testing a 60 is not very efficient when a single sideboard card can drastically swing postboard games (pontiff and rhetoric are examples). I think you would need to test a full 75 cards to really understand the strengths and weaknesses of your list.
Secondly, the manabase you suggested is approaching unrealistic territory. You need black mana early and often for souls and brutality, so you're essentally an abzan deck "splashing" for heavy red cards. Have you considered cutting red? I know you lose some sense of identity doing that, but XGGG, 2RRR, GW, and 1B is going to lose you games.
Criticism aside, I feel like brutality and souls could be really strong. Was this your brainchild? It makes we want to take another look at my old abzan archangel chord deck.
I've toyed with Archangel quite a bit, and generally the combo is less versatile than Kiki, in my opinion. I have multiple ideas for some Abzan toolboxes in my head, and Brutality + Souls is definitely in there.
Back to my list, yes I realize the sideboard is very very important. And 4 colors in general is very hard to do, imo. That's why the manabase blows. Cutting red is a real thing I've considered, which I won't get into more than I have because this is a Kiki thread. I just wish the fixing was solid enough to use the kiki combo alongside an Abzan toolbox.
naclmolecule, not the actual combination of cards. I meant applying them to this archetype. Both have strong synergy with chord of calling strategies (souls makes chord more powerful and brutality can turn nonsense like wall of roots or pridemage into a removal spell).
Also I agree about lingering souls being weak against dredge. They're expensive, easy to conflagrate down, and don't make much forward progress. We need to rely on scooze or tithes game one, and we have other cards that are good at blocking 3/3s.
Have you not had success with ghostly prison? I've found it to be amazing against dredge. They need to have an answer in their opener, its fairly easy to protect with chord, and it lets you get back into the game if you draw it on turn five. Also its awesome against a ton of other decks, whereas surgical is super narrow.
There's too many directions this deck is getting pulled into lately, and it's very hard to tell what the right direction is. Starting to think I need a break from the deck to clear my head and approach it from a fresh direction.
Gotcha, yeah my list is playing 8 mana dorks so prison is usually a full turn faster.
I've also had some success with magus of the moat against dredge. They can't hit it with abrupt decay so its conflagrate or die. Combining it with teeg, selfless spirit, restoration angel, or ooze can be really affective. Again it has weaknesses, but also applications against other decks.
There's too many directions this deck is getting pulled into lately, and it's very hard to tell what the right direction is. Starting to think I need a break from the deck to clear my head and approach it from a fresh direction.
Agreed. I'll probably continue playing my no dork, 4 bolt 4 path 4 evo list for a while longer. I think it's pretty consistent. Doubt I get into the Nahiri or Traverse builds. Have considered trying a heavy Chord list, but haven't gotten around to it. I just hate the idea of drawing into multiple mana dorks mid or late game and completely regretting it. I really have no clue where Kiki will end up.
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1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Reveillark
1x Thragtusk
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Restoration Angel
3x Eternal Witness
3x Wall of Omens
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Birds of Paradise
Sorcery (4)
4x Eldritch Evolution
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
Land (22)
1x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Raging Ravine
1x Fire-Lit Thicket
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
2x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Fulminator Mage
2x Lightning Helix
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Aven Mindscensor
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Burrention Forge-Tender
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
About deck, generaly I like everything. And about missing 4th color, I was missing black vs Company, because in those games pontiff would help me so much. In two games he had around 3-4 creatures that would die to -1/-1. Also, Anafenza would be great in this MU too. I had luck to dodge dredge in rounds and T8, here Anafenza would done the job too! Im considering to add black too.
I saw some decks run only 1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I would never consider running 1 and I think 2 is the right number. For me, he is one of best cards in this deck and I would feel so bad if I play only one copy I want to Evolution Voice/Wall for Pia and Kiran and I already have it in my hand. This card is almost never wrong to be searched. Another thing what I would change in this deck is replacing Thragtusk in main with one more Restoration Angel, and maybe I would try to fit 4th Angel in Main Deck, Ruric Thar would be replaced for 4th Angel. Ruric looks silly, but he actualy helped me few times this weekend. Problem is only that I didnt have more Resto's for Tourament. Thragusk would be moved to SB I guess. Also, I would play at least 1x Engeneered Explosives in side if I had them(Grudge would be replaced).
As it said before, this deck is really strong and it can beat any other, the problem is only his popularity. If I remmeber anything I wanted to say I'll post it again.
Why would we do this? Seems like we give up a lot to play a card that we have no upside to discarding to. Brutality does do good things, but I just don't see it.
Our deck has a lot of built in card advantage, and has trouble interacting with non-creatures. Collective Brutality lets us trade card advantage for tempo (doing more ***** than we should on turn 2), and also lets us interact with non-creatures. In a version of the deck with more dead draws late (birds), it also lets us get some use out of general cards.
You could consider that deck to be a test of the hypothesis: What if we devote most of our deck to speed and let chord carry the card-advantage part?
Note the lack of Walls of Omens.
WGR Naya Rock
In general, I find four color pretty greedy. Brutality might work better in an Abzan toolbox deck.
My night on your list -
2-0 Vs. White & Colorless D&T
2-1 Vs. BW Eldrazi & Taxes
0-2 vs. Junk Bogles
1-2 Vs. Saheeli Titan
2-0 Vs. Little Kid Junk (behaved like a little kid too)
2-1 Vs. Affinity
2-0 Vs. Mono Black Whatever
2-1 Vs. Ad Naus
2-1 Vs. 8 Rack
2-1 Vs. Bant Knightfall
2-0 Vs. UWR Flash (Hoogland List)
Seemed fine against the brews people are crazy on... needs MD hate vs. Graveyard. Even 1x Scooze would suffice.
Overall I was happy with the list. 3x Prisons felt heavy in the board. At least 1x Scooze in the board + 1x in the side could heavily swap the crap MUs I saw. I felt really lucky off of my Bauble draws for the most part but in some games they definitely game the knowledge I was looking for G1 at least. Linvala was the #2 under-achiever post board. Vulshcok Sorcerer is terrible.. no if ans or butts.. even in my own testing.
Fiery Justice has always been complete pile for me outside of Kiki Pod where it was extremely easy to just ignore your opponents life total.. Forked Bolt/Marrow Shards seem pretty narrow. Lavamancer may be worth testing now that you're able to load up your yard fairly quick.
It was USA Emeria-control'ish with Saheeli + Sun Titan Combo.
Evolution for sparkmage on turn 2 against affinity or infect is just really difficult for them to beat, not to mention its utility against abzan company, elves, soul sisters, any hatebear varient, bant spirits, lingering souls decks, the mirror, and delver decks.
Even in non-targeted matchups its killing snapcasters, pressuring ad nauseums's last life point, finishing off colonnades and goyfs, and eating eldrazi scions.
Sparkmage/sorcerer is crazy strong in a lot of common matchups, and isn't a dead draw against other decks (like rhetoric, magus of the moon, etc...) Depending on your maindeck configuration it might not be needed there, but I definitely think its fantastic to have access to in the 75
That card ruins so many random decks.
WGR Naya Rock
That being said, not playing gaddock isn't "doing it wrong". The only tier 1 deck you want him against is potentially dredge, maybe jeskai.
Play him if you want your combo hate to help in the chord/company matchups or if you're more worried about through the breach than pyromancers ascension.
Definitely not an auto-include though
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
3x Voice of Resurgence
3x Wall of Omens
1x Wall of Roots
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Restoration Angel
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Reveillark
4x Path to Exile
2x Collective Brutality
4x Chord of Calling
4x Lingering Souls
Lands: 23
1x Fire-lit Thicket
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Mountain
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Probably in the board. This is just the maindeck.
Just a couple of points - you're playing a toolbox deck. Testing a 60 is not very efficient when a single sideboard card can drastically swing postboard games (pontiff and rhetoric are examples). I think you would need to test a full 75 cards to really understand the strengths and weaknesses of your list.
Secondly, the manabase you suggested is approaching unrealistic territory. You need black mana early and often for souls and brutality, so you're essentally an abzan deck "splashing" for heavy red cards. Have you considered cutting red? I know you lose some sense of identity doing that, but XGGG, 2RRR, GW, and 1B is going to lose you games.
Criticism aside, I feel like brutality and souls could be really strong. Was this your brainchild? It makes we want to take another look at my old abzan archangel chord deck.
I've toyed with Archangel quite a bit, and generally the combo is less versatile than Kiki, in my opinion. I have multiple ideas for some Abzan toolboxes in my head, and Brutality + Souls is definitely in there.
Back to my list, yes I realize the sideboard is very very important. And 4 colors in general is very hard to do, imo. That's why the manabase blows. Cutting red is a real thing I've considered, which I won't get into more than I have because this is a Kiki thread. I just wish the fixing was solid enough to use the kiki combo alongside an Abzan toolbox.
Also I agree about lingering souls being weak against dredge. They're expensive, easy to conflagrate down, and don't make much forward progress. We need to rely on scooze or tithes game one, and we have other cards that are good at blocking 3/3s.
Have you not had success with ghostly prison? I've found it to be amazing against dredge. They need to have an answer in their opener, its fairly easy to protect with chord, and it lets you get back into the game if you draw it on turn five. Also its awesome against a ton of other decks, whereas surgical is super narrow.
I've also had some success with magus of the moat against dredge. They can't hit it with abrupt decay so its conflagrate or die. Combining it with teeg, selfless spirit, restoration angel, or ooze can be really affective. Again it has weaknesses, but also applications against other decks.
Agreed. I'll probably continue playing my no dork, 4 bolt 4 path 4 evo list for a while longer. I think it's pretty consistent. Doubt I get into the Nahiri or Traverse builds. Have considered trying a heavy Chord list, but haven't gotten around to it. I just hate the idea of drawing into multiple mana dorks mid or late game and completely regretting it. I really have no clue where Kiki will end up.