I had a miserable time with Infect, Affinity and Delver playing Hoogland's Blue list. Like 20-30% win rate pre/post board miserable vs. all in testing. Nahiri is great and all but she's extremely clunky without a turn 1 dork.
Yeah, so not putting staticaster in the main is basically a totally boneheaded move. I moved it to the main, and went 61/14. Doesn't hurt me much pre-board (I have a ton of ways to cycle it), helps a lot post-board. I can't compare it to playing your list, tbh, because I suck nuts at your list. =)
But I can compare it to the black list. Here are the relevant differences:
Staticaster vs. Pontiff - sort of a wash. Maybe pontiff's a bit better vs. affinity/infect. Depends how the game plays out.
Maindeck P+K Nalaar: Good to draw in both matchups. You never chord for it.
1 more resto: Good to draw.
Nahiri is another removal spell, albeit a ****in' slow and conditional one.
Other than that, curve's effectively the same and bullets are effectively the same. Post board, I think the unified wills do more than anything black is bringing along, and you can pitch as many Nahiris as you like.
So: It's totally possible that Hoogland's chord just sucks vs. infect, but I've found that it's pretty much a coin flip. I can't really see why blue is particularly worse than black, seems like about a wash. Infect's probably a 55/45 favorite, but 20-3% seems like a bit much.
Hmm I have a complete infect and kiki chord deck both fully built without having to substitute cards from one to the other. I also have 4 of anything infect would ever run and just about every silver bullet kiki (black or blue) could run... Maybe I should start testing against myself I still feel like if I go somewhere and really want the best chance to win I'm bringing infect though. Of course whether or not you make room for a melira drastically changes your chance of winning. I would probably maindeck Melira if I knew I was playing infect against myself. lol
I mean. I don't think anybody arguing that kiki-chord is a better deck than infect. Infect's best draws just blow us the @#$% out of the water - it's the fastest quasi-consistent deck in modern. Cheerily, it also has awful matchups against most aggro decks and some popular grindy decks (jeskai control, jund), which prevents it from just running roughshod over entire tournaments. We have game against it, but it's not clear that any version of chord is actually favored unless we're maindecking Melira.
Dan - we were talking about Infect/Affinity/Delver, a MU where Glen Elendra is pretty much a dead card because of CMC and activation. I didn't bother comparing against Sin Collector because they are both pretty bad in this matchup.
Welcome to the thread/board, though! Good to have more chord players!
I had a miserable time with Infect, Affinity and Delver playing Hoogland's Blue list. Like 20-30% win rate pre/post board miserable vs. all in testing. Nahiri is great and all but she's extremely clunky without a turn 1 dork.
Yeah, so not putting staticaster in the main is basically a totally boneheaded move. I moved it to the main, and went 61/14. Doesn't hurt me much pre-board (I have a ton of ways to cycle it), helps a lot post-board. I can't compare it to playing your list, tbh, because I suck nuts at your list. =)
But I can compare it to the black list. Here are the relevant differences:
Staticaster vs. Pontiff - sort of a wash. Maybe pontiff's a bit better vs. affinity/infect. Depends how the game plays out.
Maindeck P+K Nalaar: Good to draw in both matchups. You never chord for it.
1 more resto: Good to draw.
Nahiri is another removal spell, albeit a ****in' slow and conditional one.
Other than that, curve's effectively the same and bullets are effectively the same. Post board, I think the unified wills do more than anything black is bringing along, and you can pitch as many Nahiris as you like.
So: It's totally possible that Hoogland's chord just sucks vs. infect, but I've found that it's pretty much a coin flip. I can't really see why blue is particularly worse than black, seems like about a wash. Infect's probably a 55/45 favorite, but 20-3% seems like a bit much.
Played with the blue Chord last night (2 Nahiri and no Emrakul), and I'll definitely find some room for the staticaster mainboard, I've litteraly sided it in all MUs.
But I'm not sure if the blue version is worth it without the full Nahiri playset, thoughts?
I think the blue version is fine to play without 4 Nahiri, but I would play Reveillark over Emrakul at anything less than 4 Nahiri. Instead of 4 Nahiri + Emrakul, I would probably go 3 Nahiri + Resto + Reveillark. At 2 Nahiri, I'd probably say @#$% it and go back to black to have a little bit better mana so I could play P+K maindeck instead of a third Nahiri. But you could stay blue there too.
Deceiver exarch is a sneakily good card in an awful lot of matchups. I've won games just by tapping down a tron land during their upkeep - keeping them to 4-5 mana instead of 7 once they've assembled tron, even for 1 turn, is pretty valuable.
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As an addendum to my previous post, I forgot about my other change to Hoogland's list: I play 1 Kataki, 1 Stony Silence over 2 Stony Silences (and I MD the staticaster, with 14 in the sideboard, as mentioned earlier). This improves the post-board affinity matchup a ton, as it makes chords game-winning hate cards. I'm pretty sure, with those changes, the deck is just fine against affinity/infect. Not amazing, but not a huge dog.
If there's a creature silver bullet and a spell silver bullet, and both are in my sideboard, I tend to prefer running one of the creature (to keep chords live), and the rest spells. The exception is Fulminator Mage/Crumble to Dust, because fulminator's frequently just a better draw than crumble.
I'm currently running the Blue version with 2 Nahiri and I also ended up main-decking the Staticaster. It turns out we just need that kind of an effect in our deck to combat Infect, Affinity and decks that go wide; you'll win because of it much more often than you'll lose because of it. I ended up taking the Exarch out and putting back the 3rd Restoration Angel. Exarch isn't worth it without the full playset of Nahiris IMO.
Any thoughts on 2 Nahiris (with Reveillark) vs. 4 Nahiris (with Emrakul)? I know Hoogland advocates for the full playset. Wondering if others agree?
Decided to test Village Bell-Ringer instead of Deceiver Exarch in the CoCo version but I'm still not convinced. Enlighten me Luda - apart from the surprise factor (which is also quite a valid argument for Exarch, honestly) how is it that much better? Exarch is amazing as a disruptive addition to our game plan.
I'm currently running the Blue version with 2 Nahiri and I also ended up main-decking the Staticaster. It turns out we just need that kind of an effect in our deck to combat Infect, Affinity and decks that go wide; you'll win because of it much more often than you'll lose because of it. I ended up taking the Exarch out and putting back the 3rd Restoration Angel. Exarch isn't worth it without the full playset of Nahiris IMO.
Any thoughts on 2 Nahiris (with Reveillark) vs. 4 Nahiris (with Emrakul)? I know Hoogland advocates for the full playset. Wondering if others agree?
The Nahiri/Emrakul argument boils down to the meta you expect to play in, if it's very narrow and you don't expect to need a lot of silver bullets the Nahiri/Emrakul package is great. If you think you're going to have to run a few more bullets/high impact cards then trimming down to 3 Nahiri/No Emrakul is probably where you want to be. That said, Nahiri is a card you probably almost want every single game, but there are going to be times where you'll draw the Emrakul and never see a Nahiri a few games in a row and you'll hate the damn thing. The Emrakul line offers less diversity and more chance of being susceptible to some game plan that could've been blown out by a silver bullet, but the inevitability it offers can often be fantastic.
Decided to test Village Bell-Ringer instead of Deceiver Exarch in the CoCo version but I'm still not convinced. Enlighten me Luda - apart from the surprise factor (which is also quite a valid argument for Exarch, honestly) how is it that much better? Exarch is amazing as a disruptive addition to our game plan.
I've always played a Bell-Ringer because I don't have a 3rd Angel; my observations:
1) Works well with Voice of Resurgence, I've often attacked with VoR leaving Bell-Ringer mana up so that I can trade the Voice for a large token, it's a decent trick against creature strategies.
2) Efficient early blocker against Zoo/Burn variants.
3) Would much rather it was an Exarch/Angel against non-creature based decks.
4) Can occasionally facilitate the combo earlier, but very low occurrence.
I feel like big game hunter could be good again, especially with Nahiri making him super easy to discard. The current non-blue version feels like it barely has any good chord targets anymore besides just the combo pieces. I've been playing a bunch of games with a friend (been out of real competitive play still) and I kept getting chords in my hand and looking over all my options there was really nothing worth getting besides Eternal Witness, Angel or Kiki. It's really consistent at winning so I guess that's all that really matters, but seems like I am missing answers to a lot of things. Also that new Thalia from Eldritch Moon is probably going to have to go in the deck.
that new Thalia from Eldritch Moon is probably going to have to go in the deck.
I'm sure it's worth testing, but I'm not a huge fan. In my experience, we want to chord for cards that are very high value because they're silver bullets that fit a matchup well or they're just very high value cards in general (EWit etc.). I don't think she's either of those things, and I can't imagine it'll slow down aggro decks as much as we'd like it to.
I dunno... There's a lot of nonbasic lands out there, kinda screws your opponents fetch lands and tron lands and anything affinity is playing. All creatures coming into play tapped seems kinda good and then makes them Nahiri targets as well. She doesn't have to be a chord target, but could be pretty useful in a lot of cases I think.
3 mana is a bit too expensive, and she'll cause a loss of tempo against Burn/Jund/Abzan/Zoo because she'll just eat a 1-2 mana removal spell without having done anything. If she cost 2 I'd agree but at 3 she drops a turn too late to help against most aggressive strategies.
Deserves some testing though, I could be wrong, might end up being insane if you get to effectively time walk your opponent for as long as she's out. A lot of non-basics in modern so I could see it working out.
The Nahiri/Emrakul argument boils down to the meta you expect to play in, if it's very narrow and you don't expect to need a lot of silver bullets the Nahiri/Emrakul package is great. If you think you're going to have to run a few more bullets/high impact cards then trimming down to 3 Nahiri/No Emrakul is probably where you want to be. That said, Nahiri is a card you probably almost want every single game, but there are going to be times where you'll draw the Emrakul and never see a Nahiri a few games in a row and you'll hate the damn thing. The Emrakul line offers less diversity and more chance of being susceptible to some game plan that could've been blown out by a silver bullet, but the inevitability it offers can often be fantastic.
Sort of related, but would it be terrible to attempt running 3 Nahiri/1 Emrakul?
I don't think so. I run a 3/1 split and it never seems like it hurts the amount of times that I draw Nahiri. It lets me sneak one more Bullet in the deck and still have a good chance of drawing Her . I will say that im testing the full set at the moment.
The Nahiri/Emrakul argument boils down to the meta you expect to play in, if it's very narrow and you don't expect to need a lot of silver bullets the Nahiri/Emrakul package is great. If you think you're going to have to run a few more bullets/high impact cards then trimming down to 3 Nahiri/No Emrakul is probably where you want to be. That said, Nahiri is a card you probably almost want every single game, but there are going to be times where you'll draw the Emrakul and never see a Nahiri a few games in a row and you'll hate the damn thing. The Emrakul line offers less diversity and more chance of being susceptible to some game plan that could've been blown out by a silver bullet, but the inevitability it offers can often be fantastic.
Sort of related, but would it be terrible to attempt running 3 Nahiri/1 Emrakul?
I'd definitely give it a shot, I think it could be a good idea. When the Nahiri/Emrakul package first became an option I initially said I thought the list might settle on 3 Nahiri (w/ or w/o Emrakul) - but I haven't tested that, I've just been testing full 4 Nahiri. I may trim one and put in another bullet to see how it works out, I've noticed in a few matches that I end up drawing 2-3 and usually pitching at least one to a resolved Nahiri's +1, so it's worth looking at.
Decided to test Village Bell-Ringer instead of Deceiver Exarch in the CoCo version but I'm still not convinced. Enlighten me Luda - apart from the surprise factor (which is also quite a valid argument for Exarch, honestly) how is it that much better? Exarch is amazing as a disruptive addition to our game plan.
I'm not convinced on either to be honest.. I switch back and forth all the time. Exarch has a lot of utility but Bell-Ringer allows you to just combo out of nowhere and makes for insane combat tricks. The icing on the cake for me is just not having another blue requirement in my deck.. I very rarely fetch Breeding Pool in the first 4 turns of a game which can get awkward if your dorks are getting bolted left and right.
I think the new Thalia is awesome and definitely worth testing. Is it great? or even good? Hell if I know.. Testing will tell. It does interact fantastically with a large percentage of the format though.
I think the new Thalia is awesome and definitely worth testing. Is it great? or even good? Hell if I know.. Testing will tell. It does interact fantastically with a large percentage of the format though.
Works especially nicely with Nahiri on creatures. I'll definitely be playing it in this deck and also in my Bant CoCo deck.
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Yeah, so not putting staticaster in the main is basically a totally boneheaded move. I moved it to the main, and went 61/14. Doesn't hurt me much pre-board (I have a ton of ways to cycle it), helps a lot post-board. I can't compare it to playing your list, tbh, because I suck nuts at your list. =)
But I can compare it to the black list. Here are the relevant differences:
Staticaster vs. Pontiff - sort of a wash. Maybe pontiff's a bit better vs. affinity/infect. Depends how the game plays out.
Maindeck P+K Nalaar: Good to draw in both matchups. You never chord for it.
1 more resto: Good to draw.
Nahiri is another removal spell, albeit a ****in' slow and conditional one.
Other than that, curve's effectively the same and bullets are effectively the same. Post board, I think the unified wills do more than anything black is bringing along, and you can pitch as many Nahiris as you like.
So: It's totally possible that Hoogland's chord just sucks vs. infect, but I've found that it's pretty much a coin flip. I can't really see why blue is particularly worse than black, seems like about a wash. Infect's probably a 55/45 favorite, but 20-3% seems like a bit much.
WGR Naya Rock
WGR Naya Rock
Welcome to the thread/board, though! Good to have more chord players!
WGR Naya Rock
Played with the blue Chord last night (2 Nahiri and no Emrakul), and I'll definitely find some room for the staticaster mainboard, I've litteraly sided it in all MUs.
But I'm not sure if the blue version is worth it without the full Nahiri playset, thoughts?
Deceiver exarch is a sneakily good card in an awful lot of matchups. I've won games just by tapping down a tron land during their upkeep - keeping them to 4-5 mana instead of 7 once they've assembled tron, even for 1 turn, is pretty valuable.
------------------
As an addendum to my previous post, I forgot about my other change to Hoogland's list: I play 1 Kataki, 1 Stony Silence over 2 Stony Silences (and I MD the staticaster, with 14 in the sideboard, as mentioned earlier). This improves the post-board affinity matchup a ton, as it makes chords game-winning hate cards. I'm pretty sure, with those changes, the deck is just fine against affinity/infect. Not amazing, but not a huge dog.
If there's a creature silver bullet and a spell silver bullet, and both are in my sideboard, I tend to prefer running one of the creature (to keep chords live), and the rest spells. The exception is Fulminator Mage/Crumble to Dust, because fulminator's frequently just a better draw than crumble.
WGR Naya Rock
Any thoughts on 2 Nahiris (with Reveillark) vs. 4 Nahiris (with Emrakul)? I know Hoogland advocates for the full playset. Wondering if others agree?
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
The Nahiri/Emrakul argument boils down to the meta you expect to play in, if it's very narrow and you don't expect to need a lot of silver bullets the Nahiri/Emrakul package is great. If you think you're going to have to run a few more bullets/high impact cards then trimming down to 3 Nahiri/No Emrakul is probably where you want to be. That said, Nahiri is a card you probably almost want every single game, but there are going to be times where you'll draw the Emrakul and never see a Nahiri a few games in a row and you'll hate the damn thing. The Emrakul line offers less diversity and more chance of being susceptible to some game plan that could've been blown out by a silver bullet, but the inevitability it offers can often be fantastic.
I've always played a Bell-Ringer because I don't have a 3rd Angel; my observations:
1) Works well with Voice of Resurgence, I've often attacked with VoR leaving Bell-Ringer mana up so that I can trade the Voice for a large token, it's a decent trick against creature strategies.
2) Efficient early blocker against Zoo/Burn variants.
3) Would much rather it was an Exarch/Angel against non-creature based decks.
4) Can occasionally facilitate the combo earlier, but very low occurrence.
I'm sure it's worth testing, but I'm not a huge fan. In my experience, we want to chord for cards that are very high value because they're silver bullets that fit a matchup well or they're just very high value cards in general (EWit etc.). I don't think she's either of those things, and I can't imagine it'll slow down aggro decks as much as we'd like it to.
Deserves some testing though, I could be wrong, might end up being insane if you get to effectively time walk your opponent for as long as she's out. A lot of non-basics in modern so I could see it working out.
Sort of related, but would it be terrible to attempt running 3 Nahiri/1 Emrakul?
I'd definitely give it a shot, I think it could be a good idea. When the Nahiri/Emrakul package first became an option I initially said I thought the list might settle on 3 Nahiri (w/ or w/o Emrakul) - but I haven't tested that, I've just been testing full 4 Nahiri. I may trim one and put in another bullet to see how it works out, I've noticed in a few matches that I end up drawing 2-3 and usually pitching at least one to a resolved Nahiri's +1, so it's worth looking at.
I'm not convinced on either to be honest.. I switch back and forth all the time. Exarch has a lot of utility but Bell-Ringer allows you to just combo out of nowhere and makes for insane combat tricks. The icing on the cake for me is just not having another blue requirement in my deck.. I very rarely fetch Breeding Pool in the first 4 turns of a game which can get awkward if your dorks are getting bolted left and right.
I think the new Thalia is awesome and definitely worth testing. Is it great? or even good? Hell if I know.. Testing will tell. It does interact fantastically with a large percentage of the format though.
PS: I'm the guy who made the ugly banner.
Works especially nicely with Nahiri on creatures. I'll definitely be playing it in this deck and also in my Bant CoCo deck.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU