Been messing around a lot with "Pyromancer Ascension" / "Cloud Key" / "Locket of Yesterdays" -as well as- Main decking Pieces of the Puzzle, & even Splashing Black for 8 Discard Spells, +Infernal Tutor
Pyromancer Ascension is absolutely ridiculous once it gets going! And it's not vulnerable to the creature removal that's everywhere.
Ascension at 2 counters with Pieces of the Puzzle in the deck pretty much means drawing the entire deck, it's absolutely stupid!
Been messing around a lot with "Pyromancer Ascension" / "Cloud Key" / "Locket of Yesterdays" -as well as- Main decking Pieces of the Puzzle, & even Splashing Black for 8 Discard Spells, +Infernal Tutor
Pyromancer Ascension is absolutely ridiculous once it gets going! And it's not vulnerable to the creature removal that's everywhere.
Ascension at 2 counters with Pieces of the Puzzle in the deck pretty much means drawing the entire deck, it's absolutely stupid!
Yes i strongly advocate 2x mainboard Ascension + 2 mainboard Empty the warrens
Been messing around a lot with "Pyromancer Ascension" / "Cloud Key" / "Locket of Yesterdays" -as well as- Main decking Pieces of the Puzzle, & even Splashing Black for 8 Discard Spells, +Infernal Tutor
Pyromancer Ascension is absolutely ridiculous once it gets going! And it's not vulnerable to the creature removal that's everywhere.
Ascension at 2 counters with Pieces of the Puzzle in the deck pretty much means drawing the entire deck, it's absolutely stupid!
If you love ascension this much now, you should have seen what it did while Probe was still legal.
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Currently messing around a lot with the following: (This is a work in progress, nothing is definitive. Although one can say that about anything in life regardless.)
Sorceries: (23)
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Shimmer of Possibility
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
Cards that have gone in and out in testing already:
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Locket of Yesterdays
4 Cloud Key
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Pieces of the Puzzle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 total Grapeshot
2 total Past in Flames
I've been purposely avoiding the Baral / Goblin mana dudes since they're well established. I'm trying to push for a version that doesn't use any creatures, as well as uses the graveyard less. Graveyard hate is everywhere in this format, people are maindecking Relic of Progenitus. As well as the fact that creature removal is going to be even more of an obstacle, so I'm trying to play around the format and make the deck's core 60 as hard to interact with as possible. It fits my playstyle! Good luck out there in the mean time & I'll keep in touch on here.
(Not worried about a sideboard at the current time, still working on a main 60, this will take a lot of time & I'll keep in touch, playing like 50+ games a day right now putting and taking out different things I can think of/find/etc)
Hi, I would like someone to prove me wrong on this one. I always heard that having a bear in play, 6 Mana and gifts ungiven is a deterministic kill. But I can not find the line, I don't think is possible if I cast it with an empty graveyard and they give me manamorphose and pif in hand.
I would cast manamorphose and pif, going to 1 red, then cast pyretic, desperate and manamorphose again, going up to 6 mana, then pay 3 to play gifts. Is there any gift pile that wins the game from there?
Hi, well thanks for your time but you are explaining something different to the question I asked. We all know that having a manamorphose and ritual in the gy solves the issue. My point was that having only 3 Mana and resolving gifts is not enough, you must have also something relevant in the yard (to produce 3 extra mana for the worst case scenario).
I still think this is true, so if maybe you have 6 lands one bear and gifts, after your opponent cracked a relic, mind that you will only win if the opponent gives you the wrong piles.
The deterministic kill presumes 2 things - it ignores the draws off mm, but it also presumes u are not being interacted with. If we're talking interaction why not just have the opponent crack the relic with your PIF on the stack? Or how about the opponent has damping sphere or leyline of sanctity?
Your scenario of 6 lands and no graveyard is also unrealistic, and working that scenario out is impractical. how are you still alive? Did you cast 0 cantrips? is the concern a RIP on the field? If you had that much time to sculpt a hand, is it not going to be a remand kill instead of gifts/pif? Why would i want to spend time answering a question that would never be asked of me in reality?
The problems you might want to worry about that actually happen - how can you deal with 1-3 hand discards in your early turns? Can you goldfish a turn 3-4 kill consistently without being interacted with?
Wow... I'm speachless. I ask a theroetical question on gifts piles and you answer why to bother if that never comes up, and that the real questions are bla bla... Actually this came up against tron. Anyway, you didn't get my point, forget it.
For those interested in what is really needed for a deterministic kill, after running all the combinations (would love if anyone sees something I miss), you need a bear, a gift, 3 mana in the pool and a way to add at least 3 extra mana on the way... Or your opponent to miss.
And no relic on the board.
And no leyline
And no rest in peace
No ooze
No sphere
No Thalia
No meddling mage
No counter magic
.
.
.
Then you should have painted the scenario instead of asking us to imagine a board state that will come up every.... how many games?
Your point is not difficult to get. You want to know how to get to the kill from this point. But the point you've named is very very strange. Its like asking to get to the Empire State building.... from Narnia.
So here's the answer you want. You have 3 mana, gifts on the stack, NO other resources in the hand or GY. No, you cannot do the 20 damage you are looking for. And yes, your best lines are still the rit, rit, mm, pif pile followed by the grape, mm, gift/noxious, remand pile. This of course also assume no disruption from your opponent.
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Then you should have painted the scenario instead of asking us to imagine a board state that will come up every.... how many games?
Your point is not difficult to get. You want to know how to get to the kill from this point. But the point you've named is very very strange. Its like asking to get to the Empire State building.... from Narnia.
So here's the answer you want. You have 3 mana, gifts on the stack, NO other resources in the hand or GY. No, you cannot do the 20 damage you are looking for. And yes, your best lines are still the rit, rit, mm, pif pile followed by the grape, mm, gift/noxious, remand pile. This of course also assume no disruption from your opponent.
Coming from the scenario I described, you could have, after casting the second gift, max of 5 (they give you ritual-ritual with the first gift), minimum of 3 mana left (pif-manamorphose). If your second gift pile is grapeshot-manamorphose-noxious/gift-remand, your opponent can mana screw you giving you gifts and remand or noxious remand even if you have max mana...
I would go for gifts-pif-ritual-grapeshot for the second pile. Then at least all the lines are deterministic if you had 5 mana after casting the second gift, and some more lines if you had 4 mana (they give you ritual-pif or ritual-manamorphose with the first gift). Pif-manamorphose ends in a choke point unless you draw something.
Anyway, glad you agree we can not deal the 20 damage coming from gifts/3 mana/bear unless we have at least +3 mana in the graveyard or we draw something on the way. I think this deck really rewards knowing the in and outs, and memorizing those can prevent you from making mistakes.
If you trawl reddit you will actually find many people have asked for directions from Narnia to the Empire state building. It seems like a valid question when you're new to storm, but after playing a couple hundred games you realize all that theorycrafting doesn't matter. You'll seldom have literally nothing else - you'll have something in the GY, you'll have something else in your hand, you'll have drawn something from manamorphose.
By and large the kill IS deterministic barring interaction from the opponent, such as GY hate as you have kindly pointed out, or any of the number of hindrances from taxing effects to rule of law.
Regarding the second gifts pile, it depends a lot on what your opponent has given you and what else you have in the GY or hand. Just like in my first paragraph, this is seldom going to be nothing. So i wouldn't worry too much about
we can not deal the 20 damage coming from gifts/3 mana/bear unless we have at least +3 mana in the graveyard or we draw something on the way.
because per my last post, you have much more real things to burn brain cells over.
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Man it's important to squeeze the deck to get the better results. Knowing the deterministic lines and knowing how to play against hate are different topics... But not exclusive.
The second pile you gave is easy to disrupt even with max mana... better to not to stay on the surface so we can find those tough kill lines.
By the way, I've been playing since Odyssey...long time storm player
Man it's important to squeeze the deck to get the better results. Knowing the deterministic lines and knowing how to play against hate are different topics... But not exclusive.
The second pile you gave is easy to disrupt even with max mana... better to not to stay on the surface so we can find those tough kill lines.
By the way, I've been playing since Odyssey...long time storm player
I started ice age. I think our experience only counts from when gifts was printed though. I'm not trying to put you down, its just that questions on gifts piles don't tend to come from experienced gifts players.
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It's pretty popular in my circle (both boros burn and mono red burn) and even when they don't get eidolon I find it very hard to outpace them since they can just bolt the medallion bears.
I play with 4 barals and 3 goblins maindeck, 2 grapeshot and 1 empty maindeck. Post side I usually bring out 1 grapeshot and 1 goblin for 2 more empty and also bring in the madcap/emperion package and 2 bolts.
I've been toying with the idea of replacing the goblins with pyromancer's ascension but it makes the deck so much more vulnerable to graveyard hate. Cloud key sounds nice but the CCM3 is prohibitive.
It's pretty popular in my circle (both boros burn and mono red burn) and even when they don't get eidolon I find it very hard to outpace them since they can just bolt the medallion bears.
I play with 4 barals and 3 goblins maindeck, 2 grapeshot and 1 empty maindeck. Post side I usually bring out 1 grapeshot and 1 goblin for 2 more empty and also bring in the madcap/emperion package and 2 bolts.
I've been toying with the idea of replacing the goblins with pyromancer's ascension but it makes the deck so much more vulnerable to graveyard hate. Cloud key sounds nice but the CCM3 is prohibitive.
Board in 3-4 lightning bolts and pray.
If the bears eat a bolt that's OK, since it's 3 less damage for you. What really gets the tears flowing is searing blaze.
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Had a thought but havent tested yet: running a 1 or 2 of Curious Homunculus as an alternate win-con/more resilient mana bear. Might make the deck slower but it gets through most removal once it flips + prowess to minimize risk of fizzle mid combo. Any thoughts?
After feeling the pain of getting all of my wincons removed from my deck a couple times, I'm experimenting with a one of, main deck, Thing in the Ice in place of an Electromancer (Currently running 4 Barals, 2 Electromancers and 1 Thing). Here's my thinking, it's a good card, it's worked well in the sideboard of the deck before it almost never feels like a bad play, if you throw it out while you're still trying to assemble your hand you have the bonus of worst case scenario (well, other than it being countered or removed) it can give you a chance to win just in the attempt to gather the bits needed for a typical storm win.In game one it can give us a third wincon for a gifts pile and in the common game two scenario of pieces of the puzzle + empty the warrens it can have the pleasant effect of clearing the way for our horde of goblins. After just a bit of playtesting / goldfishing it seems like a pretty solid. Part of me wants to squeeze in a second (I wouldn't eliminate any more manna reducers, it'd be some other spell, as if I was running 4 Electromancers) because things get removed because at what point does deviating from our focus on storming out become detriment? I guess the point is, what are your thoughts on one (or two) maindeck Thing in the Ice in the current environment?
Hey, couple of thoughts about curious homunculus and thing I. The ice.
First, the obvious. The curious doesn't play as a combo creature the turn it comes in play. When is this a drawback? I would say any time we are playing around interaction. I guess is a tool to keep in our storm box, any time the format is in a hyper linear spot, let's say a zoo deck with little to no interaction is the tier 1 deck, having a big body that can block a nacalt is something with it. But I think in general both baral and electro are better options, more versatile, and allow more difficult to play around patterns for our opponent.
Thing main deck is something I've considered too, I played for a while a version with 4 baral, 4 thing in the ice, no empty and 4 pieces of the puzzle. So not your exact idea. I thought that was a viable deck indeed, the nombo is not a big deal I felt. But had a worse g1 than traditional storm overall. About playing 2 in the main, I have to say I don't like the idea of being a deck that has all the answers. Gifting for a pile with the 3 win cons...don't like it so much. I think loosing against double surgical (they also need both wincons in the graveyard) is a good spot to be. I have 2 thing in the side and win so many games on their own against creature decks...and sometimes against mill, lantern...when I fear surgicals
i like it a lot. if everything you cast/copy deals 1 damage, it means you need to copy grapeshot half the amount of times that you usually need cos each copy is dealing 2. all considered, even less than that, because your mana accelerators and your cantrips will be dealing 1 damage each too.
having said that, I have no experience with the deck, I have just bought all the pieces to put it together and haven't played it yet, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I will be replacing Noxious Revival with Finale of Promise. In return for not being able to get a bear off of a gifts pile I get something quite bit more interesting. Gifts piles with Finale in the equations become quite a bit exciting.
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I will be replacing Noxious Revival with Finale of Promise. In return for not being able to get a bear off of a gifts pile I get something quite bit more interesting. Gifts piles with Finale in the equations become quite a bit exciting.
How have you been doing with final promise main deck?
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Pyromancer Ascension is absolutely ridiculous once it gets going! And it's not vulnerable to the creature removal that's everywhere.
Ascension at 2 counters with Pieces of the Puzzle in the deck pretty much means drawing the entire deck, it's absolutely stupid!
Yes i strongly advocate 2x mainboard Ascension + 2 mainboard Empty the warrens
If you love ascension this much now, you should have seen what it did while Probe was still legal.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Lands: (16)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
Enchantments: (4)
4 Pyromancer Ascension
Instants: (17)
4 Opt
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
1 Echoing Truth
Sorceries: (23)
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Shimmer of Possibility
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
Cards that have gone in and out in testing already:
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Locket of Yesterdays
4 Cloud Key
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Pieces of the Puzzle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 total Grapeshot
2 total Past in Flames
I've been purposely avoiding the Baral / Goblin mana dudes since they're well established. I'm trying to push for a version that doesn't use any creatures, as well as uses the graveyard less. Graveyard hate is everywhere in this format, people are maindecking Relic of Progenitus. As well as the fact that creature removal is going to be even more of an obstacle, so I'm trying to play around the format and make the deck's core 60 as hard to interact with as possible. It fits my playstyle! Good luck out there in the mean time & I'll keep in touch on here.
(Not worried about a sideboard at the current time, still working on a main 60, this will take a lot of time & I'll keep in touch, playing like 50+ games a day right now putting and taking out different things I can think of/find/etc)
Wow... I'm speachless. I ask a theroetical question on gifts piles and you answer why to bother if that never comes up, and that the real questions are bla bla... Actually this came up against tron. Anyway, you didn't get my point, forget it.
For those interested in what is really needed for a deterministic kill, after running all the combinations (would love if anyone sees something I miss), you need a bear, a gift, 3 mana in the pool and a way to add at least 3 extra mana on the way... Or your opponent to miss.
And no relic on the board.
And no leyline
And no rest in peace
No ooze
No sphere
No Thalia
No meddling mage
No counter magic
.
.
.
(Sorry if remarking this sounds stupid)
Your point is not difficult to get. You want to know how to get to the kill from this point. But the point you've named is very very strange. Its like asking to get to the Empire State building.... from Narnia.
So here's the answer you want. You have 3 mana, gifts on the stack, NO other resources in the hand or GY. No, you cannot do the 20 damage you are looking for. And yes, your best lines are still the rit, rit, mm, pif pile followed by the grape, mm, gift/noxious, remand pile. This of course also assume no disruption from your opponent.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Coming from the scenario I described, you could have, after casting the second gift, max of 5 (they give you ritual-ritual with the first gift), minimum of 3 mana left (pif-manamorphose). If your second gift pile is grapeshot-manamorphose-noxious/gift-remand, your opponent can mana screw you giving you gifts and remand or noxious remand even if you have max mana...
I would go for gifts-pif-ritual-grapeshot for the second pile. Then at least all the lines are deterministic if you had 5 mana after casting the second gift, and some more lines if you had 4 mana (they give you ritual-pif or ritual-manamorphose with the first gift). Pif-manamorphose ends in a choke point unless you draw something.
Anyway, glad you agree we can not deal the 20 damage coming from gifts/3 mana/bear unless we have at least +3 mana in the graveyard or we draw something on the way. I think this deck really rewards knowing the in and outs, and memorizing those can prevent you from making mistakes.
By and large the kill IS deterministic barring interaction from the opponent, such as GY hate as you have kindly pointed out, or any of the number of hindrances from taxing effects to rule of law.
Regarding the second gifts pile, it depends a lot on what your opponent has given you and what else you have in the GY or hand. Just like in my first paragraph, this is seldom going to be nothing. So i wouldn't worry too much about
because per my last post, you have much more real things to burn brain cells over.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The second pile you gave is easy to disrupt even with max mana... better to not to stay on the surface so we can find those tough kill lines.
By the way, I've been playing since Odyssey...long time storm player
I started ice age. I think our experience only counts from when gifts was printed though. I'm not trying to put you down, its just that questions on gifts piles don't tend to come from experienced gifts players.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
It's pretty popular in my circle (both boros burn and mono red burn) and even when they don't get eidolon I find it very hard to outpace them since they can just bolt the medallion bears.
I play with 4 barals and 3 goblins maindeck, 2 grapeshot and 1 empty maindeck. Post side I usually bring out 1 grapeshot and 1 goblin for 2 more empty and also bring in the madcap/emperion package and 2 bolts.
I've been toying with the idea of replacing the goblins with pyromancer's ascension but it makes the deck so much more vulnerable to graveyard hate. Cloud key sounds nice but the CCM3 is prohibitive.
Board in 3-4 lightning bolts and pray.
If the bears eat a bolt that's OK, since it's 3 less damage for you. What really gets the tears flowing is searing blaze.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Modern: Goblins,Storm
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Simic Merfolk
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
First, the obvious. The curious doesn't play as a combo creature the turn it comes in play. When is this a drawback? I would say any time we are playing around interaction. I guess is a tool to keep in our storm box, any time the format is in a hyper linear spot, let's say a zoo deck with little to no interaction is the tier 1 deck, having a big body that can block a nacalt is something with it. But I think in general both baral and electro are better options, more versatile, and allow more difficult to play around patterns for our opponent.
Thing main deck is something I've considered too, I played for a while a version with 4 baral, 4 thing in the ice, no empty and 4 pieces of the puzzle. So not your exact idea. I thought that was a viable deck indeed, the nombo is not a big deal I felt. But had a worse g1 than traditional storm overall. About playing 2 in the main, I have to say I don't like the idea of being a deck that has all the answers. Gifting for a pile with the 3 win cons...don't like it so much. I think loosing against double surgical (they also need both wincons in the graveyard) is a good spot to be. I have 2 thing in the side and win so many games on their own against creature decks...and sometimes against mill, lantern...when I fear surgicals
i like it a lot. if everything you cast/copy deals 1 damage, it means you need to copy grapeshot half the amount of times that you usually need cos each copy is dealing 2. all considered, even less than that, because your mana accelerators and your cantrips will be dealing 1 damage each too.
having said that, I have no experience with the deck, I have just bought all the pieces to put it together and haven't played it yet, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
How have you been doing with final promise main deck?