One aspect is that you have to wait a turnthe second is, that you have to fill your graveyard before you are able to flip him, which means, that rarely you would be able to go off on turn 3 with this.
Someone recently asked about UB Mill matchup, here is my sb plan (I run Finkel list with fourth Empty instead of Defense Grid):
+4 Empty
+4 Bolt
+ Truth
-4 Scour
-2 Past
- Grapeshot
-2 Ravings
Basically the plan is to kill them using the win con they don't catch with extraction effect - usually Bolt.
Back on Storm for good during the Summer. I'll be playing the deck intensively to get as sharp as possible with the mechanic as I don't feel like I'm always piloting it the right way. It mostly comes down to sequencing cards and even sometimes keeping greedy hands. I'll run this :
However, I've considered cutting down on Desperate Ravings and replace them with either Looting or Tormenting Voice. I'm really experimenting with the deck right now and I've considered running 4 Grapeshot in the main. I'll keep pushing forward with the idea as I know it's done by some players.
I've never really liked looting, just seemed subpar most of the time. Tormenting voice while I liked it to begin with I think is worse than ravings as well. I would like to hear what you think when you test though. 4 grapeshot transfers you more to a smaller mini combo style more often, a lot of time pointing the first 1-2 at the board and just slowly pecking away until you get the PiF, at least when I played that way. Usually 2 grapeshot is fine when we combo since we rarely ever need to draw more than one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Dusted Storm off for a random local modern tourney and remembered why I love this deck so much. So many little decisions and so many different paths to victory. Killed someone by going into beatdown with two Electromancers then finished them with Bolt -> PiF -> Bolt. Felt amazing.
Also remembered why I put the deck down in the first place. Staring down a T1 Goblin Guide is just such a horrible feeling. I'll probably continue to play it here and there when I notice that the Burn players aren't in attendance (this guy was new, didn't know what he was on before it was too late).
@The0retico That's pretty much how I board but I like to leave in two copies of PiF and take out the third ravings depending on what the 15th card I have is.
@TomCourtenay Looting has always been bad when I've tested it. Voice felt good but I foudn too often it got remanded and I just lost.
@Risumu Empty number 4 is interesting. I initially liked it because of eldrazi and played it a lot while they were legal. Now that they aren't it's something I go back and forth on. It helps in the matchups where empty is really good but it has some issues in some matchups. I helps out a lot in matchups that are about drawing action like discard decks but I've found it a bit lackluster against zoo because you can easily become empty flooded and not be able to do anything.
As lordoftheshadows mentioned, fourth Empty is good against midrange BGx matchups. I also prefer it over Defense Grid against blue decks.
Btw. I had a chance to play some games against Abzan Company player, who always got the combo before I did (I guess a strike of unfortunate games) and I remembered that I read it is possible to mill them out with Scour while they have infinite life. I tried it four times, but I always failed - the problems I encountered:
- having too few cards in library, because it usually takes some cantrips to get t omultiple ascensions and their activation
- having multiple ascensions in graveyard
- not being able to defend against them (Pontiff for Goblins and Anafenza to deal lethal)
- milling has t obe immidiate win, because they can still scry to get chord and redcap
- this plan takes a lot of time to perform
What are your experiences? were you able to do it? How did you overcome the problems i encountered?
Think of Electromancer as a sorcery that makes all your spells cost 1 less to cast, rather than a creature with that ability since most of the time it'll be killed before your next turn. Only 3 copies isn't enough, which is why 4 is the best. Finkel's article on Storm also explains why you always run 4 Electromancer, I recommend you check it out, multiple people have put the link in this thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks:
Modern UR Storm
Legacy BG Manaless Dredge
EDH: WUBSen Triplets Control GPolukranos Super Ramp Monstrosity RWU Narset Turns
Hey guys wanted to hear your thoughts on the affinity matchup I've never run shatterstorm in my Sideboard but I haven't played against affinity very often with storm
My current Sideboard is
4 lightning bolt
3 blood moon
3 empty the Warrens
2 echoing truth
2 pyroclasm
1 defense grid
Multiple electromancer can be used to overload counters and removal. There's been a few times where I use electromancer to bait a removal spell so I can resolve ascension against a control deck. If they don't deal with it they will often just die to the massive amount of mana it generates. You rarely want to play it on turn two if there is any chance of the opponent having removal. In some matchups it's fine though.
Shatterstorm is good compared to class and anger because it blanks ravager, and it also gets rid of plating and other artifacts that can help top deck cards become live. If you don't have a lot of affinity you can use those slots for something else and just accept a slightly worse affinity matchup.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
@Risumu I think you have the wrong eidolon They use eidolon of rhetoric normally. Anyways kiki chord should be a good matchup. I do something like +3 Empty, +4 Bolts, +1 Echoing Truth, -1 Grapeshot, -1 Past in Flames, -3 Desperate Ravings, -3 Thought Scour. Sometimes I cut an ascenion or two but I go back and forth on that. The really useful cards to have in the board for this matchup are Echoing Truth, Dispel and Rending Volley. The matchup is favorable because they have too many moving parts. We can pretty easily go under them with empty or a fast combo since they don't have a ton of hate. Obviously Eidolon is a problem but I have beaten a resolved eidolon many times. You can echoing truth it, double bolt it (ascension) or any number of things. Plus they'll keep sketchy hands on the back of eidolon which give us they time to sculpt a hand that can bounce and win in one turn.
"if a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard a card you may reveal that card and put it on top of your library instead of putting it anywhere else
tadd C to your mana pool"
The problem is you can't tutor it and its most useful right from the start of the game. also doesn't tap for colours
I probably wouldn't since you can't cast anything off it super early. It also reads, if you discard time walk yourself. Sometimes that's what you want to keep the ascension, but it isn't free. If we really wanted to fight discard effects i think we would board leyline before this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
I've got a chance to test against Kiki-Chord. The version I encountered was quite greedy going five colors with Glen Elendra and Pontiff. I tend t oside in few Empties, Bolts, Truth and Moons, because although they usually have a bird, they usually require two different colored mana and core of the combo has more requirements on mana colors.
As mentioned above, Leyline might be a better way to deal with targeted discard, another way is Ignorant Bliss. But to be honest targeted discard isn't usually the problem for storm, because we are very consistent, run lots of cantrips and can use card in our graveyard. For untargeted discard Ravings works just fine.
Nobody any suggestions to the problems I got milling Melira combo?
I must have missed the milling question, it's a rough kill to pull off. You only need half as many cards as they have. You want to get the ascensions as quick as possible, but let's say it's been a longer game, and they have 30 cards left in their deck. You need 15 scours to kill the, which is just casting it 3 times with 4 ascensions, 4 times with 3 ascensions, 5 times with 2 ascensions etc. So not unreasonable to figure out, but can be rough or impossible if your deck has all the ascensions on the bottom. You have to stop saying yes to some ascension triggers if you are running low on cards. I believe I have a YouTube video that I demonstrate the kill against elves. If you have a more specific question I can try to answer it for you, or if I missed something, which is likely.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Btw. I had a chance to play some games against Abzan Company player, who always got the combo before I did (I guess a strike of unfortunate games) and I remembered that I read it is possible to mill them out with Scour while they have infinite life. I tried it four times, but I always failed - the problems I encountered:
- having too few cards in library, because it usually takes some cantrips to get t omultiple ascensions and their activation
- having multiple ascensions in graveyard
- not being able to defend against them (Pontiff for Goblins and Anafenza to deal lethal)
- milling has t obe immidiate win, because they can still scry to get chord and redcap
- this plan takes a lot of time to perform
What are your experiences? were you able to do it? How did you overcome the problems i encountered?
Not really. I have only played against the 5C one once where he comboed me on 4 twice so that wasn't much of a game. However against normal kiki chord (and I assume this applies to the 5C one as well) you will usually have the time to sculpt a hand that can win in one turn. You also have empty the warrens which can easily win on it's own. Although I empty for 12 is much much much better than empty for 10 because that will almost always be a 2 turn clock while 10 can be a 3 turn clock if they have a good board presence. My general strategy against Kiki chord is to force them to interact a little by playing out and ascension early then when they tap out for something to kill them the next turn. You want to bait them into tapping low or using up all of their resources and then win. You can afford to take it pretty slow in this matchup and get full value out of your cantrips. One of my favorite plays is to pass the turn without having played anything and hope they tap out for Nahiri. They will often do it if it's turn 4-6 and we can untap and kill/empty pretty easily.
TL;DR - Get full value out of your spells and try to wait for them to tap out/run low on resources. Also bolt is amazing in this matchup. Bolt the bird every single time not matter what. Slowing them down a turn is amazing.
Thoughts on the newly spoiled Chaos Reveler? It's not doubled by ascension, but feels like it would often be a red 2 mana draw 3. I'm not sure what my opinion is on it as of yet though
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UR Storm URB Grixis Delver W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Btw. I had a chance to play some games against Abzan Company player, who always got the combo before I did (I guess a strike of unfortunate games) and I remembered that I read it is possible to mill them out with Scour while they have infinite life. I tried it four times, but I always failed - the problems I encountered:
1 having too few cards in library, because it usually takes some cantrips to get t omultiple ascensions and their activation
2 having multiple ascensions in graveyard
3 not being able to defend against them (Pontiff for Goblins and Anafenza to deal lethal)
4 milling has t obe immidiate win, because they can still scry to get chord and redcap
5 this plan takes a lot of time to perform
What are your experiences? were you able to do it? How did you overcome the problems i encountered?
Sorry I took so long to respond to this. I numbered your points to make it more clear what I was responding to. I also agree with what LordOfTheShadows said.
1) You can use the cantrips to dig to the ascensions, but you want to have rituals to turn them on. You only need half the cards that they have, but thats not that difficult. Usually if you have 20 cards left by the time you have 2-3 ascensions online you are good. You also want to make blue mana early into the combo since once you hit that half their deck size point you can no longer cast manamorphose. I would recommend trying to goldfish it for practice, since it is the hardest kill to pull off.
2) With just two ascensions you can mill for 48, which is generally enough to win, the kill is much faster with more ascensions online though. Generally they only have ~3 ways to kill ascension, so if you can get two going with slightly more than 24 cards left in your deck you are probably fine.
3) Bolt does wonders here. I would recommend siding anger if you play against it a lot and you are having trouble winning fast enough. Bolt is usually enough for a while, but anger does the job better.
4) If you are milling them you should be able to empty their library and pass the turn. I guess I don't understand what you mean by immediate, since that is the only way you can win by mill.
5) Yes, it does take upwards of 5-10 minutes. It can be faster with practice. How I would start that kill is by asking them to count their library while you count yours. At that point you know your numbers and can calculate how many scours you need to cast by (their deck size)/2. From there the minimum number of ascensions needed is that number divided by (8 - number of scours cast) and then subtract one since you cast the original copy. That math is relatively straight forward and you just have to make sure you have ~6-8 blue by the time you reach half their deck size and the rest shouldn't be too bad. You can also just set up ascensions right when you draw them using rituals. You also don't have to cast ascension copies when turning on other ascensions, which makes not decking with cantrips a bit easier to do.
I could be wrong but I think Chaos Reveler is a sideboard card at best. It is good in the G/B/x and control matchups where we can sometimes run out of cards, but you rarely want to cast it in any other matchup since with all the other selection we have you should have 3 or more good cards in hand already. It is another interesting one to try though.
+4 Empty
+4 Bolt
+ Truth
-4 Scour
-2 Past
- Grapeshot
-2 Ravings
Basically the plan is to kill them using the win con they don't catch with extraction effect - usually Bolt.
4 Goblin Electromancer
Spells (40)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Thought Scour
3 Past in Flames
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Grapeshot
3 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Shivan Reef
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Shatterstorm
2 Dispel
2 Blood Moon
1 Echoing Truth
However, I've considered cutting down on Desperate Ravings and replace them with either Looting or Tormenting Voice. I'm really experimenting with the deck right now and I've considered running 4 Grapeshot in the main. I'll keep pushing forward with the idea as I know it's done by some players.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Also remembered why I put the deck down in the first place. Staring down a T1 Goblin Guide is just such a horrible feeling. I'll probably continue to play it here and there when I notice that the Burn players aren't in attendance (this guy was new, didn't know what he was on before it was too late).
@TomCourtenay Looting has always been bad when I've tested it. Voice felt good but I foudn too often it got remanded and I just lost.
@Risumu Empty number 4 is interesting. I initially liked it because of eldrazi and played it a lot while they were legal. Now that they aren't it's something I go back and forth on. It helps in the matchups where empty is really good but it has some issues in some matchups. I helps out a lot in matchups that are about drawing action like discard decks but I've found it a bit lackluster against zoo because you can easily become empty flooded and not be able to do anything.
Btw. I had a chance to play some games against Abzan Company player, who always got the combo before I did (I guess a strike of unfortunate games) and I remembered that I read it is possible to mill them out with Scour while they have infinite life. I tried it four times, but I always failed - the problems I encountered:
- having too few cards in library, because it usually takes some cantrips to get t omultiple ascensions and their activation
- having multiple ascensions in graveyard
- not being able to defend against them (Pontiff for Goblins and Anafenza to deal lethal)
- milling has t obe immidiate win, because they can still scry to get chord and redcap
- this plan takes a lot of time to perform
What are your experiences? were you able to do it? How did you overcome the problems i encountered?
Modern UR Storm
Legacy BG Manaless Dredge
EDH:
WUBSen Triplets Control
GPolukranos Super Ramp Monstrosity
RWU Narset Turns
My current Sideboard is
4 lightning bolt
3 blood moon
3 empty the Warrens
2 echoing truth
2 pyroclasm
1 defense grid
Shatterstorm is good compared to class and anger because it blanks ravager, and it also gets rid of plating and other artifacts that can help top deck cards become live. If you don't have a lot of affinity you can use those slots for something else and just accept a slightly worse affinity matchup.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
nephalia academy
"if a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard a card you may reveal that card and put it on top of your library instead of putting it anywhere else
tadd C to your mana pool"
The problem is you can't tutor it and its most useful right from the start of the game. also doesn't tap for colours
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
As mentioned above, Leyline might be a better way to deal with targeted discard, another way is Ignorant Bliss. But to be honest targeted discard isn't usually the problem for storm, because we are very consistent, run lots of cantrips and can use card in our graveyard. For untargeted discard Ravings works just fine.
Nobody any suggestions to the problems I got milling Melira combo?
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Btw. I had a chance to play some games against Abzan Company player, who always got the combo before I did (I guess a strike of unfortunate games) and I remembered that I read it is possible to mill them out with Scour while they have infinite life. I tried it four times, but I always failed - the problems I encountered:
- having too few cards in library, because it usually takes some cantrips to get t omultiple ascensions and their activation
- having multiple ascensions in graveyard
- not being able to defend against them (Pontiff for Goblins and Anafenza to deal lethal)
- milling has t obe immidiate win, because they can still scry to get chord and redcap
- this plan takes a lot of time to perform
What are your experiences? were you able to do it? How did you overcome the problems i encountered?
TL;DR - Get full value out of your spells and try to wait for them to tap out/run low on resources. Also bolt is amazing in this matchup. Bolt the bird every single time not matter what. Slowing them down a turn is amazing.
UR Storm
URB Grixis Delver
W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Sorry I took so long to respond to this. I numbered your points to make it more clear what I was responding to. I also agree with what LordOfTheShadows said.
1) You can use the cantrips to dig to the ascensions, but you want to have rituals to turn them on. You only need half the cards that they have, but thats not that difficult. Usually if you have 20 cards left by the time you have 2-3 ascensions online you are good. You also want to make blue mana early into the combo since once you hit that half their deck size point you can no longer cast manamorphose. I would recommend trying to goldfish it for practice, since it is the hardest kill to pull off.
2) With just two ascensions you can mill for 48, which is generally enough to win, the kill is much faster with more ascensions online though. Generally they only have ~3 ways to kill ascension, so if you can get two going with slightly more than 24 cards left in your deck you are probably fine.
3) Bolt does wonders here. I would recommend siding anger if you play against it a lot and you are having trouble winning fast enough. Bolt is usually enough for a while, but anger does the job better.
4) If you are milling them you should be able to empty their library and pass the turn. I guess I don't understand what you mean by immediate, since that is the only way you can win by mill.
5) Yes, it does take upwards of 5-10 minutes. It can be faster with practice. How I would start that kill is by asking them to count their library while you count yours. At that point you know your numbers and can calculate how many scours you need to cast by (their deck size)/2. From there the minimum number of ascensions needed is that number divided by (8 - number of scours cast) and then subtract one since you cast the original copy. That math is relatively straight forward and you just have to make sure you have ~6-8 blue by the time you reach half their deck size and the rest shouldn't be too bad. You can also just set up ascensions right when you draw them using rituals. You also don't have to cast ascension copies when turning on other ascensions, which makes not decking with cantrips a bit easier to do.
I could be wrong but I think Chaos Reveler is a sideboard card at best. It is good in the G/B/x and control matchups where we can sometimes run out of cards, but you rarely want to cast it in any other matchup since with all the other selection we have you should have 3 or more good cards in hand already. It is another interesting one to try though.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears