From everything I've heard there is a translation error on mythic spoilers side and they do come in tapped, neither they nor mtgsalv have corrected it so maybe the translation is correct, but that would also be out of character for this type of spell. I don't speak the language it was spoiled in so I can't say for sure.
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(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
The only use I can think of for it is the sideboard against a control deck or something similar that doesn't have a fast clock and tries to drag the game out. But something like Defense Grid is probably better in those matchups.
I don't like the card very much for a few reasons:
1) it's 3CMC. I don't want to be using all my third turn to play this card. I want to use T3 to get all the pieces in place for a T4 kill.
2) It's an enchantment, which means it's not discounted by Electromancer and neither does it contribute towards activating Ascension.
3) You still have pay the costs for the copy. Yeah they don't get exiled, but that's not really ideal.
I've seen the PiF comparison in a few places and I don't think that's really accurate. PiF is the big finisher in the deck; you play out your hand and then play PiF to effectively re-draw your entire yard. You can also flashback PiF if it gets countered, is discarded, or you just need to flashback a bunch more spells that you drew off of all your flashbacked cantrips.
Finally, what would you take out to make space for it? The deck (Finkel's version) is very precisely tuned; in a perfect world I'd really only want to swap out the cantrips for better cantrips.
Yeah, I honestly read the card thinking we just cast it from the yard w/o paying. I think that would've been great, but this sounds real lame. Thanks for the input!
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Does anyone have a more budget version that doesn't run the Scalding Tarns and Blood Moons?
I have 4 Shivan Reefs and 4 Steam Vents, and 1 Blood Moon... The rest of the pieces don't seem so expensive. Does anyone have a list I can build without the Tarns and SB blood moons?
If you have any blue fetches, run those. Scalding Tarn is the best only because of the option to fetch both Island and Mountain, but as long as you have blue fetches you'll be fine. Everything else should depend on the number of fetches you have. Basically any land that comes in untapped is what you should play
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Decks:
Modern UR Storm
Legacy BG Manaless Dredge
EDH: WUBSen Triplets Control GPolukranos Super Ramp Monstrosity RWU Narset Turns
Could you guys give some insight into this first turn: you're on the play and have a Serum Visions and a Gitaxian Probe. You have no idea what deck the opponent is playing. Do you lead with the Visions in order to get a potentially better draw with the follow-up Probe, or do you lead with the Probe in order to have a more informed scry with the Visions? I fell like this is a really subtle decision, but comes up a lot.
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Modern UR Storm URB Grixis Delver W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Generally yeah, most everything else is pretty cheap/important. Blue fetches are what you want if you can. Blood moon I would replace with another empty and some other silver bullet for your meta, tarns can be any blue fetch, or a red but that is less advised since you want to fetch basic island a lot.
Edit, I rarely cast probe on turn one, usually I use it to decide if I'm resolving an ascension or something else. Also, fetch island visions let's people know a bit less what you are playing as well, but you cant pretend to be twin anymore.
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(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Really, I like to probe before visions, mostly because it gives you more information when resolving the scry because 1) you have a different card in your hand and 2) You have a better idea what you need to play around. For instance, if I'm playing against Burn I know I'm going to push the second Ascension to bottom, whereas if I'm up against Jund, I'll leave it on top because it's likely that my first will be dealt with.
Naturally this changes if you know what you're playing against, but that's my thought against a random opponent.
Very interested to hear other lines of thought, though.
I do believe it does matter on the play vs draw as well. If I am on the play I try to minimize my life loss in the dark, and once you see their first turn it lets you know what you are probing to check for. Sometimes I cycle turn one, but my preference is waiting turn two.
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(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
I think the question is more about if you are playing the Probe on turn one at all. In game one, if I have only one land in hand, I play Probe even before the land. Also I Probe if I have multiple Probes in hand. Otherwise it is better to wait with Probe.
You might want to play Probe second during the combo, because you can get the card you are looking for, if you find it in scry from Visions.
Before the bans, Storm was much more potent and we saw more dedicated hate like Mindbreak Trap, Counterflux, Rule of Law etc. Nowadays Storm can be easily disrupted and it comprises just a small sliver of (world's/GP) meta, therefore players utilize just graveyard and splash hate.
If your local meta evolves t obring dedicated hate against Storm, you might still try to play around it, but a more reasonable choice would be to bring a different deck now and then.
Remand sees no play in current standard (Finkel's) build, because unlike pre-ban versions, it cannot really win using just cards in hand.
It's not good. Electromancer makes more mana, it doesn't have flashback. Doesn't help with ascension, and is only lose a turn for just plus one mana. I don't think it fits at all.
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(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Electromancer doesn't have flashback and doesn't help with Ascension either. Electromancer also costs you a turn. Vessel makes plus two mana.
Some pluses and minuses for Vessel in comparision to Electromancer:
+ it isn't a creature, so it is safe from removal on turn 2 or at the beginning of the combo
+ it doesn't require blue mana
+ the ability provides uncounterable four mana for early Empty the Warrens
+ multiples stack better
+ it can be cast and activated for storm without losing mana
- it makes less mana in the long run
- it cannot attack, block or soak up burn or Path
- it cannot net mana the turn you cast it
"So it's like a Manamorphose by replacing the mana used to cast, but it doesn't fix mana like Manamorphose does and it doesn't replace itself with another card. Electromancer doesn't make it cheaper so we can actually net mana off it. Ascension doesn't copy it. I suppose it could be dropped a turn early and used after to net 2 mana, but that is loose at best. I wouldn't run it in storm but it could be an interesting way to ramp into a through the breach?"
It is not even remotely close suggesting to switch this for electromancer. Electromancer is loads better in storm, he basically produces 1 mana every time we cast a spell. You really aren't getting the same value with this card. The only benefit I see of this card is that perhaps ascension will stick if they have to use relevant removal on this instead of ascension.
Electromancer doesn't cost you a turn since you can net mana from it the turn you play it. It also can power out a turn three empty, but an empty for 2-4 isn't very good. When we are looking for red rituals they have to be plus mana, or have extra utility. Electromancer is the best ritual in the deck. The red blue version doesn't want this, but the mono red version might like it, along with any other red ramp deck.
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UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Modern UR Storm
Legacy BG Manaless Dredge
EDH:
WUBSen Triplets Control
GPolukranos Super Ramp Monstrosity
RWU Narset Turns
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Yeah, I honestly read the card thinking we just cast it from the yard w/o paying. I think that would've been great, but this sounds real lame. Thanks for the input!
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
I have 4 Shivan Reefs and 4 Steam Vents, and 1 Blood Moon... The rest of the pieces don't seem so expensive. Does anyone have a list I can build without the Tarns and SB blood moons?
Modern UR Storm
Legacy BG Manaless Dredge
EDH:
WUBSen Triplets Control
GPolukranos Super Ramp Monstrosity
RWU Narset Turns
UR Storm
URB Grixis Delver
W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Edit, I rarely cast probe on turn one, usually I use it to decide if I'm resolving an ascension or something else. Also, fetch island visions let's people know a bit less what you are playing as well, but you cant pretend to be twin anymore.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Naturally this changes if you know what you're playing against, but that's my thought against a random opponent.
Very interested to hear other lines of thought, though.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Modern UR Storm
Legacy BG Manaless Dredge
EDH:
WUBSen Triplets Control
GPolukranos Super Ramp Monstrosity
RWU Narset Turns
You might want to play Probe second during the combo, because you can get the card you are looking for, if you find it in scry from Visions.
If your local meta evolves t obring dedicated hate against Storm, you might still try to play around it, but a more reasonable choice would be to bring a different deck now and then.
Remand sees no play in current standard (Finkel's) build, because unlike pre-ban versions, it cannot really win using just cards in hand.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Some pluses and minuses for Vessel in comparision to Electromancer:
+ it isn't a creature, so it is safe from removal on turn 2 or at the beginning of the combo
+ it doesn't require blue mana
+ the ability provides uncounterable four mana for early Empty the Warrens
+ multiples stack better
+ it can be cast and activated for storm without losing mana
- it makes less mana in the long run
- it cannot attack, block or soak up burn or Path
- it cannot net mana the turn you cast it
"So it's like a Manamorphose by replacing the mana used to cast, but it doesn't fix mana like Manamorphose does and it doesn't replace itself with another card. Electromancer doesn't make it cheaper so we can actually net mana off it. Ascension doesn't copy it. I suppose it could be dropped a turn early and used after to net 2 mana, but that is loose at best. I wouldn't run it in storm but it could be an interesting way to ramp into a through the breach?"
It is not even remotely close suggesting to switch this for electromancer. Electromancer is loads better in storm, he basically produces 1 mana every time we cast a spell. You really aren't getting the same value with this card. The only benefit I see of this card is that perhaps ascension will stick if they have to use relevant removal on this instead of ascension.
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears