@TheGreatGodLoki - Are you running a cascade package to cast Balance? The way you've worded your reply makes me think you're not running Electrodominance and As Foretold. Also, have you ever used Gideon's bottom 0 ability so you can't lose the game? Seems kinda fringe but I like it. Typically I would assume Gideon just acts as a 4-5 turn clock once you Balance. I don't think it's the best option myself but he seems ok.
Would you mind posting your list?
I do not run the new Electrodomanic list, I've stuck true to the orignal Borderpost list. That said, Gideons 0 ability mainly helps buy me a turn since he will generally direct at least +3 damage away from my face, and after a restore balance he acts as a beater which is hard to remove alongside after a good Balance his 0 ability often times helps seals victory . Since I don't have a lot of wiggle room with the old version, I like to get as much flexability out of each card I put into the deck. It either has to do more than one thing, or be so good at the one thing it can do (Blood Moon and Supreme Will as examples) With how power creep-ish Wizards is getting these days, I don't find myself at a loss for cards to mull around with. Any questions you have I'll be more than happy to answer.
@SunTzu - Do you ever find opening hands where you're not able to play Astrolabe turn 1? Seems pretty tough only running 3 snow lands. I know you have quite a few fetches I'm just curious if it ever comes up.
Idk maybe I need to see Symmetry in action before being too judgmental. Tutors have always been very powerful, getting the answers you need when you need them. I'm just worried if it's too slow and consistent enough to be worth it. Like I said, you almost have to have Codex or it isn't going to be worth it. Some food for thought, have you ever considered adding the Lantern control shell? Could swap out the Baubles/Astrolabes for Lantern of Insight and Ghoulcaller's Bell. They would also act as a pseudo wincon, making sure once you Balance the opponent never sees another land. I'm actually more keen to that than Crucible. Symmetry would get the added bonus of having Ghoulcaller's and Lantern. Dangit now I'm thinking about this more than LD! Haha
@skulls7 - Honestly I don't think it's worth it for the price you're going to pay. For 5 mana to basically scry 4 and draw a card. I don't think it's worth it. If you're going to be holding mana up on turn 2 I'd rather be playing some sort of counterspell than trying to scry. Just my opinion though.
@TheGreatGodLoki - Thanks for sharing your list! Have you considered running Bloodbraid Elf? I know she's not going to consistently cascade into Balance but I did try her out before she got banned. Even if you Bloodbraid into a Siege/Gideon/D.Sphere/post it still seems pretty valuable. If you are lucky and hit an Ardent Plea though you'll be able to swing for her with 4 directly after a Balance. I've kinda wondered why no one uses her since she's been unbanned. She's complete value-town. I like your list btw, but I can tell you after playing a list very similar that if you play 2 posts on turns 1 & 2, and they get Ancient Grudge'd it's almost a guarantee that you'll lose that game. Same for Force of Vigor. They're trading 1 turn to delay you essentially 3 turns.
@everyone - What about Crashing Footfalls? I did see in previous pages of this thread that some people are using it. It seems like a really strong turn 2 play. Especially if it's at the end of the opponents turn 2 with Electrodominance. They would make good blockers if we need to stall, and it's 8 power with trample. Seems legit.
@TheGreatGodLoki - Thanks for sharing your list! Have you considered running Bloodbraid Elf? I know she's not going to consistently cascade into Balance but I did try her out before she got banned. Even if you Bloodbraid into a Siege/Gideon/D.Sphere/post it still seems pretty valuable. If you are lucky and hit an Ardent Plea though you'll be able to swing for her with 4 directly after a Balance. I've kinda wondered why no one uses her since she's been unbanned. She's complete value-town. I like your list btw, but I can tell you after playing a list very similar that if you play 2 posts on turns 1 & 2, and they get Ancient Grudge'd it's almost a guarantee that you'll lose that game. Same for Force of Vigor. They're trading 1 turn to delay you essentially 3 turns.
@everyone - What about Crashing Footfalls? I did see in previous pages of this thread that some people are using it. It seems like a really strong turn 2 play. Especially if it's at the end of the opponents turn 2 with Electrodominance. They would make good blockers if we need to stall, and it's 8 power with trample. Seems legit.
IMO Bloodbraid Elf just isn't as value train as she once was. 4 cmc in todays meta is too slow, and you have so many better cards to play with now. I don't use her because she's a creature that will just instantly get wiped away *IF* I cascade into a Restore balance. I'd also rather make sure I'm guareented to hit my balances on the first try, rather than hit something dumb. Like a borderpost which just screws me over if I don't need it.
ya, I'm well aware of my issues against artifact hate, but the interesting thing is most poeple don't board in the hate until G2 which usually helps me at least go to G3. Then I just aggresivly mulligan, and it happens more often than not, 1 SSG, 1 Island, 1 Monastery Siege, and either a post or a 2nd SSG. Then I'm pretty much safe against all hate for a while. But I also don't mind going for a slower match and relying on my As Foretolds, basic lands, and Gargadons to help me out.
One card I really wanna add to this deck to make it faster, other than converting it over to Electrodomanic, is Prismatic Vista to replace my 4 Terramorphics. This would give me access to a lot more of my spells sooner, as well as playing my Posts a turn earlier. That said, at around ~$50/ea I'm a long way off of that.
As far as Crashing Footfalls go, it's a super powerful card in the Electrodomanic build. As you said, you play them after a Balance and suddenly your opponent is on their back foot, or you play them in response whether it's EoT or Battle phase against your opponent off a Electrodomanic and you're in shape. I personally don't like them, the only downside is you're making bodies on the board you either hope can get off the board to balance, or trying to beat them down asap. It's situation because against Token decks, humans, Affinity, and even Boggles, having 2 bodies on the board you're hoping to have killed off (This being the case if you don't have Greater Gargadon out/suspeneded) your opponent could just ignore until their board state is perfect enough to beat you back with makes me kinda frustrated.
@TheGreatGodLoki - If you play BBE and happen to cascade into Balance, Balance resolves before she hits the board. If you luck out and cascade into Ardent Plea then she's a turn 5 clock due to exalted. Not bad right after wiping the board.
I do have to admit the new mulligan has helped the deck, being able to keep better hands, even if you need to mull.
I do agree with you on Crashing Footfalls. It seems like a good card, but I'm not sure if it really aligns with the deck, even in the Electro/Foretold build. It's good but it doesn't impact the game like Balance does. I was merely curious if people have tested it and if so if it's worth the deck space.
@SunTzu - Do you ever find opening hands where you're not able to play Astrolabe turn 1? Seems pretty tough only running 3 snow lands. I know you have quite a few fetches I'm just curious if it ever comes up.
Idk maybe I need to see Symmetry in action before being too judgmental. Tutors have always been very powerful, getting the answers you need when you need them. I'm just worried if it's too slow and consistent enough to be worth it. Like I said, you almost have to have Codex or it isn't going to be worth it. Some food for thought, have you ever considered adding the Lantern control shell? Could swap out the Baubles/Astrolabes for Lantern of Insight and Ghoulcaller's Bell. They would also act as a pseudo wincon, making sure once you Balance the opponent never sees another land. I'm actually more keen to that than Crucible. Symmetry would get the added bonus of having Ghoulcaller's and Lantern. Dangit now I'm thinking about this more than LD! Haha
@skulls7 - Honestly I don't think it's worth it for the price you're going to pay. For 5 mana to basically scry 4 and draw a card. I don't think it's worth it. If you're going to be holding mana up on turn 2 I'd rather be playing some sort of counterspell than trying to scry. Just my opinion though.
@TheGreatGodLoki - Thanks for sharing your list! Have you considered running Bloodbraid Elf? I know she's not going to consistently cascade into Balance but I did try her out before she got banned. Even if you Bloodbraid into a Siege/Gideon/D.Sphere/post it still seems pretty valuable. If you are lucky and hit an Ardent Plea though you'll be able to swing for her with 4 directly after a Balance. I've kinda wondered why no one uses her since she's been unbanned. She's complete value-town. I like your list btw, but I can tell you after playing a list very similar that if you play 2 posts on turns 1 & 2, and they get Ancient Grudge'd it's almost a guarantee that you'll lose that game. Same for Force of Vigor. They're trading 1 turn to delay you essentially 3 turns.
@everyone - What about Crashing Footfalls? I did see in previous pages of this thread that some people are using it. It seems like a really strong turn 2 play. Especially if it's at the end of the opponents turn 2 with Electrodominance. They would make good blockers if we need to stall, and it's 8 power with trample. Seems legit.
@viking Nah I had trouble before but I changed the list to include a lot of fetches. Between those and the snow lands that are already in there I dont have issues. And even if you dont land it on turn 1 its totally fine, not like its mandatory or anything. You can land it any turn and it will be easy on your curve AND net you another card (plus its food for gargadon). Symmetry is a great card. And honestly you don't even need to worry about what card they fetch in most scenarios because they will have to wait for their turn to cast it, and by that time you will have (hopefully) had some way to draw a single card (not hard.. just build around it a bit) and cast the balance THAT TURN so whatever card they tutor up had better be good cuz its either in your graveyard from codex or you are top decking a card that costs mana when you have no mana in play. I mean.. maybe if they get bloodghast they could hope you mill it into their graveyard to finish you off if you are low enough? The only deck this is especially bad against will be control, and will require building the SB to accommodate that matchup. OFC with 4+ ways to deal with Karn as well since that guy just bricks us.
The card Ive been doing the most experimenting with as of late is Treasure Map becuase of how well it feeds gargadon (4 food for 1 card O.O). You can also use Voltaic Key and Manifold Key to 'turbo' the activation. Plus both can be sacrificed to gargadon and both costs just 1 mana to cast.
If we Restore Balance and cant attack with gargadon THAT TURN our deck becomes much much worse, especially if we have to wait 2 turns or w/e, then they are probably just stabilizing; or drawing that mountain + l.bolt to finish us or w/e. We absolutely have to try to Restore Balance almost the exact same turn as our Gargadon will come into play and attack a clean board, or our deck just wont be nearly as good.
As for Crashing Footfalls, its a decent card but its too cute / not mandatory. Sure they might extract our gargadons and win that way but thats honestly pretty rare. We will rarely need the extra power for attacking and even though 2 'food' for gargadon out of 1 card is pretty good, its not 'needed'. And if we dont have some way to combo-out the card its mediocre. Especially if our 'combo' piece to slam Crashing goes to the graveyard, like Electrodominance.
Another thing Ive moved back to is Brain in a Jar. This card can slot into any deck not using cascade. Just have Gargadon suspended, then put Brain trigger on stack; then sac brain in response.. then you get essentially a 1 mana (cost to use brain) Restore Balance since when the trigger resolves you have 0 counters so it casts a 0 spell. This should be faster than As Foretold since not only do you get to cast the spell, you also get 1 food to feed gargadon.
Ive been experimenting with cards like thirst for knowledge and thoughtcast. Thirst is honestly kind of expensive at 3 mana, but it is great for card advantage and finding things.
@ Loki why only 3 gargadon in your list? Surely you need 4 so you can kill all your lands when you balance so they don't stabilize. And why bow of nylea? Wouldn't monastery siege or another land or the gargadon you are missing be much better? Do you have trouble ending the game after balance? Seems like you are very light on things to feed to gargadon before and after you balance. That's the main reason I like the artifacts lists so much: You damn near always have perfect timings on gargadon. Nowso (for me) more than ever because Im tweaking the list to draw enough cards that I need. And be a tiny bit faster like with Brain in a Jar instead of As foretold.
(Lmao and I went ahead and made a legacy version using paradoxical outcome and gustha's scepter hahahahha its such a funny list.)
@SunTzu - Do you have any problems against burn when you play them? With all of those fetches pinging yourself seems pretty bad against them. Same for Death's Shadow. Restore Balance only removes Bloodghast for so long.
Treasure Map is too slow and too costly, imo. You like that it's 4 'food' for Gargadon on one card but you're not considering that you're spending 5 mana and 3 turns as well. Running the untap artifacts is just diluting the rest of the deck because it's only going to be useful on the Map. For the cost, there's more we could be doing with that mana/time. In addition, it's not actually supporting your board control or winning the game. Sure you can argue that Gargadon will come down sooner but if you're spending that amount of time to get him out, there's better cards to play. My two cents.
As for Brain in a Jar, I can see why it would be more appealing than As Foretold. My issue with it is that you're still spending 3 mana to cast Balance with it. Jar can only cast Balance once, where As Foretold plays it no matter what. Jar is a one-trick pony and then you have to sac it. For the same mana, I'd rather have a free spell engine. Last but not least, Karn hoses Jar but not As Foretold.
I finally have to write off the Scheming plan in my book. With Eldrazi Tron on the rise (4 Chalice & 4 Karn maindeck), you can't afford to let them get either. They can play Chalice with no lands and you have to find an answer. Then they just play Karn and you die a little inside. They also have Thoughtknot to make sure you don't get what you need. And it's a 5 turn clock right there. If that isn't bad enough, they also have Warping Wail which counters Balance.
Are there any cards we can play that hoses Eldrazi Tron other than Blood Moon? Ghost Quarter only slows them down so much.
@Loki - Do you find that 2x Bow of Nylea is enough lifegain for matches like Burn or UR control? I've actually considered moving back to the cascade version because you can throw in multiple Kor Firewalker/Sun Droplet into the board and side out the Balances and that will pretty much ensure they can't kill you. I ran a single Bow back when I was playing the cascade version because it was really good against Delver decks. There are still some prominent flyers that it takes care of. Curious how you're liking it.
Also, have you played against Eldrazi Tron much with your list? I'd like to know how it stands up.
@Loki - Do you find that 2x Bow of Nylea is enough lifegain for matches like Burn or UR control? I've actually considered moving back to the cascade version because you can throw in multiple Kor Firewalker/Sun Droplet into the board and side out the Balances and that will pretty much ensure they can't kill you. I ran a single Bow back when I was playing the cascade version because it was really good against Delver decks. There are still some prominent flyers that it takes care of. Curious how you're liking it.
1. So I actually use the Monastery Sieges, Supreme Wills, and Detention Spheres against burn more than the Bow. The Bow I do use for life gain, but its primary use is to shoot down Ornithopters, Kitesail Freebooters, and Vault Skirge s and the like since I have no way of interacting with flyers unless I use Restore balance. And since a lot of decks use mini-flyers to help I've never had an issue with it. If I'm facing a deck that doesn't run any of those, I usually play if for the tuck feature to resupply against Affinity, Tron, Humans, and Boggles. Then if they start to slow down, then I use the gain life feature. I love it. I've made my deck tuned to where a lot of the cards need to pull double duty to get considered in. Bow does that well. With a not to hard casting cost of 1GG which I can produce off 8/16 posts and 1 basic. The only downside is it is weak to a lot of common removal being a artifact/enchantment plus being legendary status. It can be slow against certain decks but usually always lands and is always relevant. Again, if you need more of toolboxy style of card this is a really good one to add.
Also, if you look at my list I post a page or so back, I don't run anything under 3cmc. I like to ensure I always hit my combo, and I hate leaving hitting the Kor Firewalkers, or any other tech piece I've hit up to chance.
Also, have you played against Eldrazi Tron much with your list? I'd like to know how it stands up.
2. Tron I haven't had too much issue with. Blood Moon helps, I don't run Ghost Q at all because I already have such a tiny manabase I don't have room for it. But my cascade version handles it nicely since they usually can Tron out around the same turn I can combo off. So as soon as they land Tron land 2/3 I insta-cast my casade card. It sets them back, because usually, and this is from my two friends that play the deck, they only hold 1-2 copies of other lands in their hands and then have to go back and dig for that 3rd again. And due to that, they usually hold a large hand and I don't so I force them to discard.
I've found that if any deck is reliant on their mana base, we are super easy to beat them. Be it Scapeshift, Titan Amulet, or Tron.
@SunTzu - Do you have any problems against burn when you play them? With all of those fetches pinging yourself seems pretty bad against them. Same for Death's Shadow. Restore Balance only removes Bloodghast for so long.
Treasure Map is too slow and too costly, imo. You like that it's 4 'food' for Gargadon on one card but you're not considering that you're spending 5 mana and 3 turns as well. Running the untap artifacts is just diluting the rest of the deck because it's only going to be useful on the Map. For the cost, there's more we could be doing with that mana/time. In addition, it's not actually supporting your board control or winning the game. Sure you can argue that Gargadon will come down sooner but if you're spending that amount of time to get him out, there's better cards to play. My two cents.
As for Brain in a Jar, I can see why it would be more appealing than As Foretold. My issue with it is that you're still spending 3 mana to cast Balance with it. Jar can only cast Balance once, where As Foretold plays it no matter what. Jar is a one-trick pony and then you have to sac it. For the same mana, I'd rather have a free spell engine. Last but not least, Karn hoses Jar but not As Foretold.
I finally have to write off the Scheming plan in my book. With Eldrazi Tron on the rise (4 Chalice & 4 Karn maindeck), you can't afford to let them get either. They can play Chalice with no lands and you have to find an answer. Then they just play Karn and you die a little inside. They also have Thoughtknot to make sure you don't get what you need. And it's a 5 turn clock right there. If that isn't bad enough, they also have Warping Wail which counters Balance.
Are there any cards we can play that hoses Eldrazi Tron other than Blood Moon? Ghost Quarter only slows them down so much.
@Loki - Do you find that 2x Bow of Nylea is enough lifegain for matches like Burn or UR control? I've actually considered moving back to the cascade version because you can throw in multiple Kor Firewalker/Sun Droplet into the board and side out the Balances and that will pretty much ensure they can't kill you. I ran a single Bow back when I was playing the cascade version because it was really good against Delver decks. There are still some prominent flyers that it takes care of. Curious how you're liking it.
Also, have you played against Eldrazi Tron much with your list? I'd like to know how it stands up.
Burn and insanely fast aggro decks will always be a hard matchup. If they are super super fast aggro its not going to be easy at all.
If its "just" aggro we have a much much better chance. Just not "Hyper" aggro.
Treasure map has been great for me. I think you misunderstand why its so good. All of the individual parts of the card are great. 1 mana to activate is ez and very nice on a curve. 1 scry per turn when I'm looking for specific cards, also great. Then; when I'm comboing off I either have all the mana in the world, OR all the artifacts in the world to Balance + Garg in the same turn. Or maybe I'm just drawing 1 extra card per turn when its flipped. The reason its worth testing is because our deck is very similar to a 'hard control' list where, we are either at 0 life, or we have enough life to win the game. That's almost where I'm at almost every game. I either combo off or I'm 1 turn too late. So I try to be fast and consistent with draw, a lot of synergy, and search spells. I try to stick to my gameplan pretty hard: Balance ASAP with Garg suspended, ideally with 0 lands in play and 0 cards in hand, and ideally with Gargadon attacking THAT turn.
In all scenarios where 1 balance will get the job (aka, most of them; if you set up fully), Brain is just a strict upgrade for me because of how fast it is. And small things, like with treasure map, how it enables metalcraft, or maybe reduces the price of thoughtcast, or could be discarded to cards like thirst for knowledge. Youre right about Karn, though. But for my list he just auto-wins if I dont have an answer anyway. Which is why a lot of my SB is dedicated towards either dealing with him THAT TURN he hits play, or maybe something like Remand, etc. Brain also lets us instant speed the balance out, too.
I havent really played a lot of Eldrazi Tron matchup tbh. The black version was just an experiment using a new card. Really the deck works without even resolving Scheming at all. Its def more hilarious than good. Super fun to play though.
Against eldrazi tron we should just try to be faster, probably. Our 'full' combo should wreck them, assuming they haven't won on the spot with Karn or w/e.
So there is a lot to cover in this question, I'll try to answer them all, and this is all based on factors such as my personal play group of friends, their suggestions, my local LGS, my own personal play testing, and what I wanted the deck to do.
1.
@Loki why only 3 gargadon in your list? Surely you need 4 so you can kill all your lands when you balance so they don't stabilize.
So I dropped down to 3 Gargadons because I found I was always starting with 1-2 in my opening hands very often, I'd say on average 6 hands I'd have 2 gargadons. This hurts my opener because they would clutter a hand and I was always wishing I started with something else. While they are useful for closing the games out, I saw them more as a personal land clearer/creature clearer more than a wincon. My win con comes from resetting the board, Gideon or Nahiri. He hasn't aged well since he doesn't have any inherent trample, flying, protection. He also can get removed super easliy, and since he is a relic of a card I wanted to move onto a better style of wincon. I found he doesn't close out the game like he use to.
2.
And why bow of nylea? Wouldn't monastery siege or another land or the gargadon you are missing be much better?
So Bow of Nylea comes from wanting more options to deal with threats. In my above post, I've mentioned taking out small flyers. I'd rather not constantly have to blow restore balances every time someone plays a Thopter, Freebooter, etc. Having Bow shoot them down means I can save my Balances for later more advantagous board states. It also hearlds back to an earlier card this deck played. Mistveil Plains. Having the ability to cycle up to 4 cards in the late game, whether its Balances, posts, Supreme Wills, even against stalemates, I won't mill out. Gaining life against late game burn is useful, even aginst some aggro decks. The +1/+1 counter isn't needed, but on the occasion Gargadon/Gideon does come online, getting 1 more point of damage in to seal the game. I only run 4 lands because I never wanted to have more than my opponent, and with 2 As Foretolds, I don't need a million lands to cast any card in my deck. And I never found I wanted more than 2 Sieges. Their protection buff is fine a +4, any more and it becomes super overkill. And I don't need more than 2 loot effects since I personally don't like discarding cards in tight games and I have 4 Supreme Wills.
3.
Do you have trouble ending the game after balance? Seems like you are very light on things to feed to gargadon before and after you balance.
I often times do not. With such a low inherent mana base, lots of control pieces in Sieges, Spheres, Nahiri, Gideon, and Bows, once I balance they simple don't have the mana base to rebuild, or if they do they really need to delay so many turns. Again, I rarely feed gargadon. I only feed if I have excess posts, I've been Stony Silenced, or I need an emergancy blocker. Again, I use Nahiri and Gideon as my win cons. Gargadon will never leave my list, since I do need that removal aspect for this deck to take full advantage of the combo.
4.
That's the main reason I like the artifacts lists so much: You damn near always have perfect timings on gargadon
What is your current list? I strayed away from as many artifacts as I could because so much hate is out there. Stony, Grudge, Vigor, Revely, and so on. Combind with so many lists able to produce blockers from nowhere, I've rarely seen openings with Gargadon. Remember, balance doesn't do Artifacts, Enchantments, or Planeswalkers. So if you have a deck that makes tokens off those, Gargadon gets stuffed or overwhelmed so many times.
5.
Nowso (for me) more than ever because Im tweaking the list to draw enough cards that I need. And be a tiny bit faster like with Brain in a Jar instead of As foretold
I disagree. As Foretold is wayyy better than Brain. Brain cannot cast Restore balance off itself.
1, T: Put a charge counter on Brain in a Jar, then you may cast an instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Brain in a Jar from your hand without paying its mana cost.
once you use this ability, the charge count will be at 1 and you cannot cast anything with less than 1 cmc. It's simple a dead card that has anti-synergy with the overall combo. Whereas As Foretold allows you cast any cmc 0 the moment you land it, so if you run out of cascade spells it in itself works in a pinch and won't reset it and allows for casting spells below its charge counter.
If you want the deck to be faster, I reccomend the Electrodomanic version. It allows you to play any cmc card you want and in doing so can play Preodains, Opts, Search fors, etc. The cascade version will always be locked into 3+ cmc.
@SunTzu --
So is the whole point of your deck ideas to run artifacts to purely feed Gargadon? How do you respond to threats or interact. Again, Brain in a Jar doesn't work with its ability UNLESS you have a way to sac it reliably. With only 4 Gargadons as your sac outlet you run that risk you won't be able to use it and even then it's a once time effect that is a less than okay parlor trick.
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So there is a lot to cover in this question, I'll try to answer them all, and this is all based on factors such as my personal play group of friends, their suggestions, my local LGS, my own personal play testing, and what I wanted the deck to do.
1.
@Loki why only 3 gargadon in your list? Surely you need 4 so you can kill all your lands when you balance so they don't stabilize.
So I dropped down to 3 Gargadons because I found I was always starting with 1-2 in my opening hands very often, I'd say on average 6 hands I'd have 2 gargadons. This hurts my opener because they would clutter a hand and I was always wishing I started with something else. While they are useful for closing the games out, I saw them more as a personal land clearer/creature clearer more than a wincon. My win con comes from resetting the board, Gideon or Nahiri. He hasn't aged well since he doesn't have any inherent trample, flying, protection. He also can get removed super easliy, and since he is a relic of a card I wanted to move onto a better style of wincon. I found he doesn't close out the game like he use to.
2.
And why bow of nylea? Wouldn't monastery siege or another land or the gargadon you are missing be much better?
So Bow of Nylea comes from wanting more options to deal with threats. In my above post, I've mentioned taking out small flyers. I'd rather not constantly have to blow restore balances every time someone plays a Thopter, Freebooter, etc. Having Bow shoot them down means I can save my Balances for later more advantagous board states. It also hearlds back to an earlier card this deck played. Mistveil Plains. Having the ability to cycle up to 4 cards in the late game, whether its Balances, posts, Supreme Wills, even against stalemates, I won't mill out. Gaining life against late game burn is useful, even aginst some aggro decks. The +1/+1 counter isn't needed, but on the occasion Gargadon/Gideon does come online, getting 1 more point of damage in to seal the game. I only run 4 lands because I never wanted to have more than my opponent, and with 2 As Foretolds, I don't need a million lands to cast any card in my deck. And I never found I wanted more than 2 Sieges. Their protection buff is fine a +4, any more and it becomes super overkill. And I don't need more than 2 loot effects since I personally don't like discarding cards in tight games and I have 4 Supreme Wills.
3.
Do you have trouble ending the game after balance? Seems like you are very light on things to feed to gargadon before and after you balance.
I often times do not. With such a low inherent mana base, lots of control pieces in Sieges, Spheres, Nahiri, Gideon, and Bows, once I balance they simple don't have the mana base to rebuild, or if they do they really need to delay so many turns. Again, I rarely feed gargadon. I only feed if I have excess posts, I've been Stony Silenced, or I need an emergancy blocker. Again, I use Nahiri and Gideon as my win cons. Gargadon will never leave my list, since I do need that removal aspect for this deck to take full advantage of the combo.
4.
That's the main reason I like the artifacts lists so much: You damn near always have perfect timings on gargadon
What is your current list? I strayed away from as many artifacts as I could because so much hate is out there. Stony, Grudge, Vigor, Revely, and so on. Combind with so many lists able to produce blockers from nowhere, I've rarely seen openings with Gargadon. Remember, balance doesn't do Artifacts, Enchantments, or Planeswalkers. So if you have a deck that makes tokens off those, Gargadon gets stuffed or overwhelmed so many times.
5.
Nowso (for me) more than ever because Im tweaking the list to draw enough cards that I need. And be a tiny bit faster like with Brain in a Jar instead of As foretold
I disagree. As Foretold is wayyy better than Brain. Brain cannot cast Restore balance off itself.
1, T: Put a charge counter on Brain in a Jar, then you may cast an instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Brain in a Jar from your hand without paying its mana cost.
once you use this ability, the charge count will be at 1 and you cannot cast anything with less than 1 cmc. It's simple a dead card that has anti-synergy with the overall combo. Whereas As Foretold allows you cast any cmc 0 the moment you land it, so if you run out of cascade spells it in itself works in a pinch and won't reset it and allows for casting spells below its charge counter. Its not a parlor trick, its 1/3rd of our combo. In artifact form (enables metalcraft, reduces price of thoughtcast, AND discards to thirst for knowledge). Heck, you could even use Tribute Mage to find it if you need to (and he jumps right into gargadon's mouth, too). Or if youre really in a pinch Eladamri's -> Tribute -> Brain. Havent tried him yet tbh. I feel like just raw draw spells will work better. Thoughtcast / Thirst for knowledge.
If you want the deck to be faster, I reccomend the Electrodomanic version. It allows you to play any cmc card you want and in doing so can play Preodains, Opts, Search fors, etc. The cascade version will always be locked into 3+ cmc.
I view my deck with the goal of a 'full combo' in mind. Garg suspended, Balance in hand, way to cast balance, and being able to ATTACK with gargadon the same turn I sacrifice all my lands -> balance. That's why I always run 4 gargadon. Sure it sucks when you draw 2 or more of them together but its 1000x better than drawing 0 in a game because its so essential to our combo. Which is why not only do I run 4 gargadon baseline (Turn 1 gargadon is very good for us), I also run either a grip of draw spells OR eladamris in 2+ so I can go grab him immediately. I want to suspend him super early so he doest need to eat as much later.
Without gargadon suspended we still have lands in play and when we still have lands in play they get to stabilize. Same thing with cards in hand, thats more chances they can stabilize. So I'm viewing this as an 'all in' combo deck. You could slow it down a bit for different things but Id rather be both consistent AND fast.
And youre right, brain + garg is a must to cast the balance, but thats 100% of the goal of my deck. Without garg suspended I dont balance. A+B+C combo. Without any part of these 3 (garg,balance,way to cast balance) the other parts don't work. You need all 3 **AND** sometimes like 7 or 8 or even 9 permanents to throw into gargadons mouth. Which is why Treasure map is so great here. Because not only does it smooth your mana, it also filters your draws, AND gives gargadon essentially about HALF the food he needs in one single card. And if I'm not dead, really don't care how much mana or turns I'm spending so long as Im faster than they clock me to 0 life. 1 time combo'ing off and almost all of my opponents just lose on the spot. Its so very rare that they can bounce back after I full combo.
And in this context, when I only need to resolve 1 balance to close the game, Brain in a jar is a strict upgrade. Why balance twice or more when 1 is all you need? The 2nd balance kills our gargadon.. And the first one WITHOUT gargadon in play reduces our balances in play for when we can combo off completely. It even lets me cheat the sorcery at instant speed. Its food for gargadon, as another huge upside. There might be a time where the extra mana could be an issue but almost all of the time its not going to be an issue. The case would be for a turn where you need 4 mana because of brain + tolaria west, for example. My deck is geared towards being low to the ground / fast start up so its not a huge issue IMO. I never have to mess with brain tokens unless I have 2 in play and extra mana to help me scry a bit. Its not needed to mess with tokens at all. Its there to be just 1 piece of the puzzle, not cast all the spells. I don't have any trouble casting spells.
Youre def right about things like Bitterblossom potentially being dangerous for us. Or a very similar card. Planeswalkers that make tokens are not an issue cuz you just kill them with gargadon in 1 attack.
I did post 2 lists above. Try one of the bottom 2 lists out (black one is just silly/fun version) and see how they play. Im liking the more streamlined approach. No fluff/filler.
As a long time player of the cascade version and a new player for the Electro version I'd like to point out a few key differences in how the deck plays according to either version.
Cascade: If you play this version you have to play at least 9 borderposts. The thing with the posts is, they keep your land count low allowing your Balances to wreak havoc on the opponent's land base. They also progress your board state. Once you Balance you're in a healthy position to keep playing threats. By threats I'm not including GG, even though it is one. You'll never be hardcasting it, and often you won't want to sac your posts because you'll need them to either respond to enemy threats, or play your own. When Loki is talking about cards pulling double duty like the Bow, the reason this is so relevant is that there's only so much room in the deck for the main combo, interaction, and threats. Cards like Bow will help with multiple aspects, making it really useful. Planeswalkers operate in much the same fashion. They provide immense value by having options, and they typically can't be dealt with post-Balance.
The main drawback to cascade version is that you must play 3+ CMC. Fortunately however they keep printing a slew of wonderful 3+ CMC cards like Monastery Siege/Supreme Will which pull double duty. It's what the deck needs more of honestly.
One of the benefits of the cascade version is that you're not required to have the Balance in hand, which is very beneficial. Instead of needing A+B+C=win, you only need a cascade spell and a couple posts. It does hurt more though when they Thoughtseize a cascade spell. With not needing as many cards to Balance, the deck can find other cards to fit in which help the deck. Having a couple different planeswalkers/threats/answers allow us to not be super reliant on the combo to close out the game.
I won many games off the back of Detention Sphere, Bow of Nylea, and Thassa, God of the Sea. I also ran Culling Scales in my version so I could consistently blow up anything less than 3 CMC. It was slow, but was devastating once you got going. Thassa has the added benefit of scry 1 every turn, AND can make herself unblockable in the late game. Bow was able to give her +1/+1 counters and typically I had at least 1 Ardent Plea on the field to turn her into an unblockable beast.
I know Thassa/Scales is completely off for most cascade versions, but I had a lot of fun with them.
Electro : The main benefit of this version is that you can play anything under 3 CMC. Namely this is Mox Opal/Mishra's Bauble/Astrolabe. They add a tad more speed to the deck and the extra draw that the cascade version doesn't have. In addition, lists that are spell heavy get the benefit of having As Foretold in the list. Once you get Foretold up to 3 counters, the opponent is going to have a hard time. You have counter mana available and free spells are free spells.
The biggest thing I notice about this version is that it's an all-or-nothing proposition. Once you Balance, you have to close out the game very quickly because you don't have many threats/answers. It's so devoted to the 'combo' that if you don't slam GG down after a Balance you're not likely to win. The problem with it is that GG is the only wincon. It's so easy for other decks to keep GG at bay because all they have to do is chump block him until they stabilize.
The problem I have with it is even though you have added speed, 3 card combo decks have never been competitive. It's too hard to find all 3 pieces of the combo, as well as interact early in the game. Splinter Twin was so successful because they could play the interaction game on turns 1-3 -> EoT on turn 3 play Exarch -> turn 4 combo and win. Pod was so resilient because it could find any answer quite easily, then combo out to close the game. This deck is a 3 card combo deck; if you don't have GG, Balance, and enabler, you will fold to pretty much every deck. It's so committed to the combo that a single counterspell or Remand is enough to ruin a game. It also has a very hard time interacting post-Balance because it's so committed to winning directly after Balance. In situations where you have to Balance to avoid losing, if you don't have GG it's just a matter of time before they land a 'walker or Tarmo or whatever. Then you're back to needing to Balance to survive.
Lastly, I would like to point out a few things about the borderposts that need to be noted. Borderposts are both a blessing and a curse. In the cascade version, they help keep the land count low so that you don't have to have GG in order to keep decks from getting to 4-5 lands. The downside is that if you take 2 turns to play posts and you get Stony Silenced, or Ancient Grudged it hurts, real bad. You basically start off on turn 1 even though it's turn 4. This is one of the reasons Mox Opal and company make the Electro version good. If someone blows up your Opal you haven't lost 2-3 turns playing it. You've only lost a 0 mana artifact and your opponent spent time playing their hate, which means they didn't play a threat. In the end, I honestly can't say either version is better than the other. I do think the cascade version is more well-rounded, but it definitely isn't perfect.
Sorry this post is a little long winded but I think it serves to demonstrate a few of the key differences between the two versions.
After typing this whole thing up, I ponder... is it possible to play a borderpost version with Electro? Food for thought until next time.
P.S. WotC please print Zuran Orb in modern.
So the only thing I found, when I played the very early version of the deck, The one back on page 1. I found being so hyper aggresive leaves you so vulnerable to everything else. The reason, as mentioned by vikingtraders, is that other combo decks can still protect/interact with the opponent. Restore balance only interacts with Restore balance. I like the hyper style you're going for, but I don't know if that is a viable option these days. Often times 1 balance isn't enough to seal games. Boggles, Affinity, Harden Scales (green affinity), and even Tron can rebound so quickly against us that wiping them constantly is our only way. But if you've blown through your gargadons, Brains, and even balances what else do you do.
Again, this is all dependant on your meta and your play style.
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It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else.
I've found the cascade version to be a bit more consistant that Electro. Mainly for the reasons you've listed.
One way I've played around artifact hate, is to never play them in G2. I usually lean into a more heavy hand of lands/fetches for slower but less set back turns, not if I can ever afford 4 Prismatic Vista we can easily boost our mana base against such matchups since we'll be able to (or at least myself) play our basics way faster to pump out the posts way faster too.
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It's easy to believe you're a god when you're twice as powerful as everyone else.
Relatively new balance player here - looking at some of the theros spoilers.
Klothys looks tempting as it dodges most of our board wipes and allows mana generation post-balance?
Also Underworld Breach made me pause for a moment, seems very similar to finale of dominance, and has additional requirements so not convinced...
Thoughts on Klothys fitting balance shell as a clock? I'm not sure precisely what to swap out frankly but as it is a damage outlet could even consider rhinos/planeswalkers(?) maybe... Might also help the burn matchup? It does land at that 3 mana drop spot where we want to be dropping 'as foretold' or a cascade card but looks damn hard to remove at the same time... Maybe an 'ok' card to drop when behind(?) as opposed to Chandra etc.
I would just try one of my lists at least guys. It feels pretty good tbh. Another thing to consider would be Timely Reinforcements for the more aggro environments. Feeds gargadon very well, too!
I tried borderposts but like you said they are vulnerable to ancient grudge type cards. I do run a lot of artifacts but I got a pretty decent sideboard for such things, and the only real bad hate cards would be like stony silence and karn. Another 'odd' drawback of borderposts is that they put things back in your hand when IMO ideally you want to dump your hand entirely pre-balance.
Like I said, I don't really have a problem with people stabilizing post-balance. If I balance its GG every single time. I have yet to see someone stabilize afterwards. Even decks that have me low HP, with mountain+bolt or plains+path.
Def have not ran into the artifacts/enchantments that help chump block. Faeries would be a bad matchup for this reason (among others).
Relatively new balance player here - looking at some of the theros spoilers.
Klothys looks tempting as it dodges most of our board wipes and allows mana generation post-balance?
Also Underworld Breach made me pause for a moment, seems very similar to finale of dominance, and has additional requirements so not convinced...
Thoughts on Klothys fitting balance shell as a clock? I'm not sure precisely what to swap out frankly but as it is a damage outlet could even consider rhinos/planeswalkers(?) maybe... Might also help the burn matchup? It does land at that 3 mana drop spot where we want to be dropping 'as foretold' or a cascade card but looks damn hard to remove at the same time... Maybe an 'ok' card to drop when behind(?) as opposed to Chandra etc.
Klothys is too slow. Why not just win with gargadon post balance? And at 3 mana hes pretty clunky.
And that enchantment is just worse than Any of our enablers. Only upside is it only costs 1 red mana instead of 2 and thats really not hard to achieve. The 'exile 3 from your GY' is easy task to hit, its just not as good as electro, or as foretold, or brain, or bring to light, or finale, or any cascade in a cascade version.
@orkswubwub - Welcome! Which version are you currently playing? I would assume you're playing the Electro version since you're looking at 2 CMC spells.
I actually really like Klothys, God of Destiny for the cascade version. The upsides are: GY interaction, it's a wincon (even if it's really slow), mana post-Balance, lifegain, and if I understand the rules correctly would be able to deal 2 dmg to a 'walker per turn. It's devotion cost is high enough too where you wouldn't have to hold back on playing stuff worrying about it becoming a creature.
The downsides are it's pretty slow. It doesn't put a whole lot of pressure onto opponents either. It doesn't truly advance your board state even if it does stick around after Balance. All in all, it seems worthy of testing to me. I think 2 copies would be good for testing, but if I was to put it in a list I'd run only one. It gives multiple options, and that's never a bad thing.
Underworld Breach just seems bad to me. You'll only really use it to Balance. For the same cost I'd rather just play Finale.
@SunTzu - Do you ever run into people who know your deck? The reason I ask, people at my LGS who play hyper aggro like affinity can play differently to improve their odds against us. If an affinity player is smart they keep hands with Springleaf Drum, Mox Opal & Ornithopter. They'll sandbag the thopter in hand so if you can't remove it they have access to 2 mana post-Balance, even if you remove all lands. I've seen good affinity players that slow down a little bit and just play 1-2 threats and beat you with attrition rather than going for the quick kill. Might not be an issue for you if you can guarantee that GG is going to be swinging once you Balance. I've had players play me that study the deck and learn it's weaknesses. If the deck ever 'goes big' and becomes a good portion of the meta, you will see other decks adapt. Your version cannot be tuned to the meta. It's all-in or bust.
The biggest downside to your version is that you're so committed to Balancing that if you can't it's almost a 100% chance you're going to lose. There are so many decks that all they have to do is just play 1 threat and you literally HAVE to answer it or lose. For example, let's say you draw a nut hand of A+B+C. You suspend garg turn 1. My turn 1 I Thoughtseize removing Electrodominance. Then on my turn 2 I play Dark Confidant. Your ONLY option at this point is to hope and pray that you draw another Electrodominance or As Foretold. That's a pretty common thing I'd run into over the years, and your version has no way to protect itself against this. Me being the Confidant player, I will draw into more gas like Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Collector Ouphe, and/or more discard. You really have no way of beating me if I set this up on you. I know because it's been done to me, a lot.
Another good example would be Grixis Death's Shadow. If they do their typical 'kill myself' strategy and leave up a blue mana for Stubborn Denial, you literally have no way to win. They also have 7 main discard spells, and Drown in the Loch. I am fairly sure that you would only win 1 game out of 5 against this deck, with your version.
If you play the deck long enough you'll find there are situations where you literally must Balance before being able to suspend GG. Humans, Hardened Scales, Affinity, Burn, Bogles, Merfolk, and Infect all have the ability to win on the play very early. Sure it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough where they can rush you into Balancing early. If you Balance once before being able to suspend GG, how are you going to make sure they don't play 1-2 threats and beat you down in 4-5 turns? Having GG as your only wincon means you must 'combo' correctly every time or you will lose.
In addition, against all of these decks Scheming Symmetry gives them an answer to your deck on a silver platter. Sure they have to wait until their turn to draw it. I like the idea as a rogue deck player, I really do. There's a reason that it doesn't get used in competitive decks. Giving the opponent a free card from their deck is literal mtg suicide. If it was an instant, it would be way different. The thing is, you have to have either a way to draw the card after casting it, or be able to Codex their card away so they don't get their answer. It sets up your combo nicely but what it doesn't do is slow your opponent down.
As you play the deck more against a variety of decks I think you'll see what I mean. There are some decks you just won't be able to beat.
So I was just looking at the top metagame decks of Modern as of right now (1/1/20) and I wanted to point out some of the advantages that some of the other top decks have over us right now that need to be acknowledged. No matter which version you play, I think we need to discuss answers to some of these cards/decks.
First we have Eldrazi Tron showing up 8.29% of the time. They're packing 4x Chalice of the Void, 4x Karn, the Great Creator, 4x Thought-knot Seer, and 2x Warping Wail. Ouch; before sideboard even. Imprisoned in the Moon is a decent answer to this deck but honestly I'm not sure if it's enough. I'm thinking countermagic might be a good option here. If we can't Balance away their lands we need a good backup plan imo.
Third, Bant Snow Control showing up 4.08%. This one isn't quite as bad with 3x Spell Queller, 3x Oko, Thief of Crowns, 3x Teferi, Time Raveler, 2x Force of Negation, and 2x Mystical Dispute. They also have 3x Damping Sphere in the side. The big one here is Teferi. With him on the field we won't ever get to Balance. They can also protect it with Dispute.
These 3 top decks represent about 20% of the competitive meta. Some of the other decks showing up are 4 color Death's Shadow, Amulet Titan, Infect, Burn, Dredge, Humans, and Jund. Each of them has little advantages against us except for Amulet Titan.
My thoughts are having a basic Balance shell while being able to include really good cards, which will make us a bit more competitive if the Balance plan gets hated on. I think planeswalkers are a solid option as they provide a lot of value post-Balance and most of them are decent wincons on their own. A careful selection of the right colors and abilities should be discussed. We want walkers that provide extreme value in keeping our board state in control, and also act as wincons.
For countermagic, I think around 7-8 spots sounds ideal. We want to be able to keep key threats off the board. We are able to run the same package of either Mystical Dispute or Metallic Rebuke. I also like Remand as it replaces itself. Cryptic Command seems legit but at 4 CMC and UUU to boot I think it should be left out myself.
The more I look at what's going on in the meta, I think a borderpost version that runs As Foretold and Electrodominance is going to be the best option. It gives it upsides of being able to play posts (keep land count low without garg) and also contributes to Mox Opal. In addition, that would give us more opportunity to experiment with cheap spells that do a lot of work like Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, Path to Exile, countermagic, etc.
What do you guys think? How do we handle some of the nasty cards in the meta like Chalice, Karn, Teferi, Spell Queller etc?
Myself I want a good amount of interaction, the balance shell, and a fair amount of threats to keep up. The problem is our deck only has so much room to work with!
Enemy Planeswalkers are a pain - ecsp. in the age of oko where even if you balance and they are on the play typically you will be facing an army of elks shortly...
Current list I am using has 4x finale of promise which feels better against control/discard matchups. Also I have izzet charm to help me pitch the awful 3x gargadon hand or if I have finale and need to pitch balance etc. I've tried pulling out the serum visions / opts for other control cards but then the list feels clunky.
The exclusion of simian spirit guide is back and forth - the extra speed can be ok but I find it is a bit 'all in' if the spell the guide was pitched for gets countered - also drawing these in multiples is pure pain...
Any thoughts on mystic sanctuary? I know we nuke our lands but as mystic sanctuary itself counts as an island(?) you should only need 2 in play beforehand(??) and it can be a nice way to recur balance / ancestral vision / footfalls depending on need. As noted not every game ends with the first balance. Also since it is an island being able to grab it with a fetchland can make it into a silver bullet... On the flip side we run low land counts typically and having it come into play tapped can be death in certain MU/draws...
I do not run the new Electrodomanic list, I've stuck true to the orignal Borderpost list. That said, Gideons 0 ability mainly helps buy me a turn since he will generally direct at least +3 damage away from my face, and after a restore balance he acts as a beater which is hard to remove alongside after a good Balance his 0 ability often times helps seals victory . Since I don't have a lot of wiggle room with the old version, I like to get as much flexability out of each card I put into the deck. It either has to do more than one thing, or be so good at the one thing it can do (Blood Moon and Supreme Will as examples) With how power creep-ish Wizards is getting these days, I don't find myself at a loss for cards to mull around with. Any questions you have I'll be more than happy to answer.
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
Borderposts = 12
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Firewild Borderpost
4 Wildfield Borderpost
Other Artifacts = 2
2 Bow of Nylea
Planeswalkers = 5
2 Gideon of the Trials
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Greater Gargadon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Instants = 8
4 Violent Outburst
4 Supreme Will
Sorcery = 4
4 Restore Balance
Enchantment = 10
2 Monastery Siege
2 As Foretold
2 Detention Sphere
4 Ardent Plea
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Wear // Tear
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
2 Blood Moon
2 Ricochet Trap
Idk maybe I need to see Symmetry in action before being too judgmental. Tutors have always been very powerful, getting the answers you need when you need them. I'm just worried if it's too slow and consistent enough to be worth it. Like I said, you almost have to have Codex or it isn't going to be worth it. Some food for thought, have you ever considered adding the Lantern control shell? Could swap out the Baubles/Astrolabes for Lantern of Insight and Ghoulcaller's Bell. They would also act as a pseudo wincon, making sure once you Balance the opponent never sees another land. I'm actually more keen to that than Crucible. Symmetry would get the added bonus of having Ghoulcaller's and Lantern. Dangit now I'm thinking about this more than LD! Haha
@skulls7 - Honestly I don't think it's worth it for the price you're going to pay. For 5 mana to basically scry 4 and draw a card. I don't think it's worth it. If you're going to be holding mana up on turn 2 I'd rather be playing some sort of counterspell than trying to scry. Just my opinion though.
@TheGreatGodLoki - Thanks for sharing your list! Have you considered running Bloodbraid Elf? I know she's not going to consistently cascade into Balance but I did try her out before she got banned. Even if you Bloodbraid into a Siege/Gideon/D.Sphere/post it still seems pretty valuable. If you are lucky and hit an Ardent Plea though you'll be able to swing for her with 4 directly after a Balance. I've kinda wondered why no one uses her since she's been unbanned. She's complete value-town. I like your list btw, but I can tell you after playing a list very similar that if you play 2 posts on turns 1 & 2, and they get Ancient Grudge'd it's almost a guarantee that you'll lose that game. Same for Force of Vigor. They're trading 1 turn to delay you essentially 3 turns.
@everyone - What about Crashing Footfalls? I did see in previous pages of this thread that some people are using it. It seems like a really strong turn 2 play. Especially if it's at the end of the opponents turn 2 with Electrodominance. They would make good blockers if we need to stall, and it's 8 power with trample. Seems legit.
IMO Bloodbraid Elf just isn't as value train as she once was. 4 cmc in todays meta is too slow, and you have so many better cards to play with now. I don't use her because she's a creature that will just instantly get wiped away *IF* I cascade into a Restore balance. I'd also rather make sure I'm guareented to hit my balances on the first try, rather than hit something dumb. Like a borderpost which just screws me over if I don't need it.
ya, I'm well aware of my issues against artifact hate, but the interesting thing is most poeple don't board in the hate until G2 which usually helps me at least go to G3. Then I just aggresivly mulligan, and it happens more often than not, 1 SSG, 1 Island, 1 Monastery Siege, and either a post or a 2nd SSG. Then I'm pretty much safe against all hate for a while. But I also don't mind going for a slower match and relying on my As Foretolds, basic lands, and Gargadons to help me out.
One card I really wanna add to this deck to make it faster, other than converting it over to Electrodomanic, is Prismatic Vista to replace my 4 Terramorphics. This would give me access to a lot more of my spells sooner, as well as playing my Posts a turn earlier. That said, at around ~$50/ea I'm a long way off of that.
As far as Crashing Footfalls go, it's a super powerful card in the Electrodomanic build. As you said, you play them after a Balance and suddenly your opponent is on their back foot, or you play them in response whether it's EoT or Battle phase against your opponent off a Electrodomanic and you're in shape. I personally don't like them, the only downside is you're making bodies on the board you either hope can get off the board to balance, or trying to beat them down asap. It's situation because against Token decks, humans, Affinity, and even Boggles, having 2 bodies on the board you're hoping to have killed off (This being the case if you don't have Greater Gargadon out/suspeneded) your opponent could just ignore until their board state is perfect enough to beat you back with makes me kinda frustrated.
I do have to admit the new mulligan has helped the deck, being able to keep better hands, even if you need to mull.
I do agree with you on Crashing Footfalls. It seems like a good card, but I'm not sure if it really aligns with the deck, even in the Electro/Foretold build. It's good but it doesn't impact the game like Balance does. I was merely curious if people have tested it and if so if it's worth the deck space.
The new mulligan rule does help us, also makes going down in hand size riskier since we like to keep as many cards as possible. At least for me.
@viking Nah I had trouble before but I changed the list to include a lot of fetches. Between those and the snow lands that are already in there I dont have issues. And even if you dont land it on turn 1 its totally fine, not like its mandatory or anything. You can land it any turn and it will be easy on your curve AND net you another card (plus its food for gargadon). Symmetry is a great card. And honestly you don't even need to worry about what card they fetch in most scenarios because they will have to wait for their turn to cast it, and by that time you will have (hopefully) had some way to draw a single card (not hard.. just build around it a bit) and cast the balance THAT TURN so whatever card they tutor up had better be good cuz its either in your graveyard from codex or you are top decking a card that costs mana when you have no mana in play. I mean.. maybe if they get bloodghast they could hope you mill it into their graveyard to finish you off if you are low enough? The only deck this is especially bad against will be control, and will require building the SB to accommodate that matchup. OFC with 4+ ways to deal with Karn as well since that guy just bricks us.
The card Ive been doing the most experimenting with as of late is Treasure Map becuase of how well it feeds gargadon (4 food for 1 card O.O). You can also use Voltaic Key and Manifold Key to 'turbo' the activation. Plus both can be sacrificed to gargadon and both costs just 1 mana to cast.
If we Restore Balance and cant attack with gargadon THAT TURN our deck becomes much much worse, especially if we have to wait 2 turns or w/e, then they are probably just stabilizing; or drawing that mountain + l.bolt to finish us or w/e. We absolutely have to try to Restore Balance almost the exact same turn as our Gargadon will come into play and attack a clean board, or our deck just wont be nearly as good.
As for Crashing Footfalls, its a decent card but its too cute / not mandatory. Sure they might extract our gargadons and win that way but thats honestly pretty rare. We will rarely need the extra power for attacking and even though 2 'food' for gargadon out of 1 card is pretty good, its not 'needed'. And if we dont have some way to combo-out the card its mediocre. Especially if our 'combo' piece to slam Crashing goes to the graveyard, like Electrodominance.
Another thing Ive moved back to is Brain in a Jar. This card can slot into any deck not using cascade. Just have Gargadon suspended, then put Brain trigger on stack; then sac brain in response.. then you get essentially a 1 mana (cost to use brain) Restore Balance since when the trigger resolves you have 0 counters so it casts a 0 spell. This should be faster than As Foretold since not only do you get to cast the spell, you also get 1 food to feed gargadon.
Ive been experimenting with cards like thirst for knowledge and thoughtcast. Thirst is honestly kind of expensive at 3 mana, but it is great for card advantage and finding things.
@ Loki why only 3 gargadon in your list? Surely you need 4 so you can kill all your lands when you balance so they don't stabilize. And why bow of nylea? Wouldn't monastery siege or another land or the gargadon you are missing be much better? Do you have trouble ending the game after balance? Seems like you are very light on things to feed to gargadon before and after you balance. That's the main reason I like the artifacts lists so much: You damn near always have perfect timings on gargadon. Nowso (for me) more than ever because Im tweaking the list to draw enough cards that I need. And be a tiny bit faster like with Brain in a Jar instead of As foretold.
(Lmao and I went ahead and made a legacy version using paradoxical outcome and gustha's scepter hahahahha its such a funny list.)
Treasure Map is too slow and too costly, imo. You like that it's 4 'food' for Gargadon on one card but you're not considering that you're spending 5 mana and 3 turns as well. Running the untap artifacts is just diluting the rest of the deck because it's only going to be useful on the Map. For the cost, there's more we could be doing with that mana/time. In addition, it's not actually supporting your board control or winning the game. Sure you can argue that Gargadon will come down sooner but if you're spending that amount of time to get him out, there's better cards to play. My two cents.
As for Brain in a Jar, I can see why it would be more appealing than As Foretold. My issue with it is that you're still spending 3 mana to cast Balance with it. Jar can only cast Balance once, where As Foretold plays it no matter what. Jar is a one-trick pony and then you have to sac it. For the same mana, I'd rather have a free spell engine. Last but not least, Karn hoses Jar but not As Foretold.
I finally have to write off the Scheming plan in my book. With Eldrazi Tron on the rise (4 Chalice & 4 Karn maindeck), you can't afford to let them get either. They can play Chalice with no lands and you have to find an answer. Then they just play Karn and you die a little inside. They also have Thoughtknot to make sure you don't get what you need. And it's a 5 turn clock right there. If that isn't bad enough, they also have Warping Wail which counters Balance.
Are there any cards we can play that hoses Eldrazi Tron other than Blood Moon? Ghost Quarter only slows them down so much.
@Loki - Do you find that 2x Bow of Nylea is enough lifegain for matches like Burn or UR control? I've actually considered moving back to the cascade version because you can throw in multiple Kor Firewalker/Sun Droplet into the board and side out the Balances and that will pretty much ensure they can't kill you. I ran a single Bow back when I was playing the cascade version because it was really good against Delver decks. There are still some prominent flyers that it takes care of. Curious how you're liking it.
Also, have you played against Eldrazi Tron much with your list? I'd like to know how it stands up.
1. So I actually use the Monastery Sieges, Supreme Wills, and Detention Spheres against burn more than the Bow. The Bow I do use for life gain, but its primary use is to shoot down Ornithopters, Kitesail Freebooters, and Vault Skirge s and the like since I have no way of interacting with flyers unless I use Restore balance. And since a lot of decks use mini-flyers to help I've never had an issue with it. If I'm facing a deck that doesn't run any of those, I usually play if for the tuck feature to resupply against Affinity, Tron, Humans, and Boggles. Then if they start to slow down, then I use the gain life feature. I love it. I've made my deck tuned to where a lot of the cards need to pull double duty to get considered in. Bow does that well. With a not to hard casting cost of 1GG which I can produce off 8/16 posts and 1 basic. The only downside is it is weak to a lot of common removal being a artifact/enchantment plus being legendary status. It can be slow against certain decks but usually always lands and is always relevant. Again, if you need more of toolboxy style of card this is a really good one to add.
Also, if you look at my list I post a page or so back, I don't run anything under 3cmc. I like to ensure I always hit my combo, and I hate leaving hitting the Kor Firewalkers, or any other tech piece I've hit up to chance.
2. Tron I haven't had too much issue with. Blood Moon helps, I don't run Ghost Q at all because I already have such a tiny manabase I don't have room for it. But my cascade version handles it nicely since they usually can Tron out around the same turn I can combo off. So as soon as they land Tron land 2/3 I insta-cast my casade card. It sets them back, because usually, and this is from my two friends that play the deck, they only hold 1-2 copies of other lands in their hands and then have to go back and dig for that 3rd again. And due to that, they usually hold a large hand and I don't so I force them to discard.
I've found that if any deck is reliant on their mana base, we are super easy to beat them. Be it Scapeshift, Titan Amulet, or Tron.
Burn and insanely fast aggro decks will always be a hard matchup. If they are super super fast aggro its not going to be easy at all.
If its "just" aggro we have a much much better chance. Just not "Hyper" aggro.
Treasure map has been great for me. I think you misunderstand why its so good. All of the individual parts of the card are great. 1 mana to activate is ez and very nice on a curve. 1 scry per turn when I'm looking for specific cards, also great. Then; when I'm comboing off I either have all the mana in the world, OR all the artifacts in the world to Balance + Garg in the same turn. Or maybe I'm just drawing 1 extra card per turn when its flipped. The reason its worth testing is because our deck is very similar to a 'hard control' list where, we are either at 0 life, or we have enough life to win the game. That's almost where I'm at almost every game. I either combo off or I'm 1 turn too late. So I try to be fast and consistent with draw, a lot of synergy, and search spells. I try to stick to my gameplan pretty hard: Balance ASAP with Garg suspended, ideally with 0 lands in play and 0 cards in hand, and ideally with Gargadon attacking THAT turn.
In all scenarios where 1 balance will get the job (aka, most of them; if you set up fully), Brain is just a strict upgrade for me because of how fast it is. And small things, like with treasure map, how it enables metalcraft, or maybe reduces the price of thoughtcast, or could be discarded to cards like thirst for knowledge. Youre right about Karn, though. But for my list he just auto-wins if I dont have an answer anyway. Which is why a lot of my SB is dedicated towards either dealing with him THAT TURN he hits play, or maybe something like Remand, etc. Brain also lets us instant speed the balance out, too.
I havent really played a lot of Eldrazi Tron matchup tbh. The black version was just an experiment using a new card. Really the deck works without even resolving Scheming at all. Its def more hilarious than good. Super fun to play though.
Heres my silly black list:
4 Brain in a Jar
1 Electrodominance
4 Greater Gargadon
1 Finale of Promise
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Codex Shredder
3 Treasure Map
2 Eladamri's Call
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Scheming Symmetry
2 Thoughtcast
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolaria West
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Electrodominance
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
4 Nature's Claim
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Finale of Promise
Against eldrazi tron we should just try to be faster, probably. Our 'full' combo should wreck them, assuming they haven't won on the spot with Karn or w/e.
Streamlined version
4 Brain in a Jar
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Electrodominance
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Treasure Map
4 Manifold Key
2 Eladamri's Call
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Prismatic Vista
3 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid
2 Tolaria West
4 Remand
3 Venarian Glimmer
1 Into the Roil
4 Nature's Claim
2 Finale of Promise
And another take without Eladamri's with a tiny bit more artifacts and more draw spells:
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Brain in a Jar
2 Electrodominance
3 Thoughtcast
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Treasure Map
4 Manifold Key
1 Voltaic Key
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Prismatic Vista
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Tolaria West
1 As Foretold
1 Repeal
4 Remand
3 Venarian Glimmer
1 Into the Roil
4 Nature's Claim
1 Finale of Promise
1.
So I dropped down to 3 Gargadons because I found I was always starting with 1-2 in my opening hands very often, I'd say on average 6 hands I'd have 2 gargadons. This hurts my opener because they would clutter a hand and I was always wishing I started with something else. While they are useful for closing the games out, I saw them more as a personal land clearer/creature clearer more than a wincon. My win con comes from resetting the board, Gideon or Nahiri. He hasn't aged well since he doesn't have any inherent trample, flying, protection. He also can get removed super easliy, and since he is a relic of a card I wanted to move onto a better style of wincon. I found he doesn't close out the game like he use to.
2.
So Bow of Nylea comes from wanting more options to deal with threats. In my above post, I've mentioned taking out small flyers. I'd rather not constantly have to blow restore balances every time someone plays a Thopter, Freebooter, etc. Having Bow shoot them down means I can save my Balances for later more advantagous board states. It also hearlds back to an earlier card this deck played. Mistveil Plains. Having the ability to cycle up to 4 cards in the late game, whether its Balances, posts, Supreme Wills, even against stalemates, I won't mill out. Gaining life against late game burn is useful, even aginst some aggro decks. The +1/+1 counter isn't needed, but on the occasion Gargadon/Gideon does come online, getting 1 more point of damage in to seal the game. I only run 4 lands because I never wanted to have more than my opponent, and with 2 As Foretolds, I don't need a million lands to cast any card in my deck. And I never found I wanted more than 2 Sieges. Their protection buff is fine a +4, any more and it becomes super overkill. And I don't need more than 2 loot effects since I personally don't like discarding cards in tight games and I have 4 Supreme Wills.
3.
I often times do not. With such a low inherent mana base, lots of control pieces in Sieges, Spheres, Nahiri, Gideon, and Bows, once I balance they simple don't have the mana base to rebuild, or if they do they really need to delay so many turns. Again, I rarely feed gargadon. I only feed if I have excess posts, I've been Stony Silenced, or I need an emergancy blocker. Again, I use Nahiri and Gideon as my win cons. Gargadon will never leave my list, since I do need that removal aspect for this deck to take full advantage of the combo.
4.
What is your current list? I strayed away from as many artifacts as I could because so much hate is out there. Stony, Grudge, Vigor, Revely, and so on. Combind with so many lists able to produce blockers from nowhere, I've rarely seen openings with Gargadon. Remember, balance doesn't do Artifacts, Enchantments, or Planeswalkers. So if you have a deck that makes tokens off those, Gargadon gets stuffed or overwhelmed so many times.
5.
I disagree. As Foretold is wayyy better than Brain. Brain cannot cast Restore balance off itself. once you use this ability, the charge count will be at 1 and you cannot cast anything with less than 1 cmc. It's simple a dead card that has anti-synergy with the overall combo. Whereas As Foretold allows you cast any cmc 0 the moment you land it, so if you run out of cascade spells it in itself works in a pinch and won't reset it and allows for casting spells below its charge counter.
If you want the deck to be faster, I reccomend the Electrodomanic version. It allows you to play any cmc card you want and in doing so can play Preodains, Opts, Search fors, etc. The cascade version will always be locked into 3+ cmc.
So is the whole point of your deck ideas to run artifacts to purely feed Gargadon? How do you respond to threats or interact. Again, Brain in a Jar doesn't work with its ability UNLESS you have a way to sac it reliably. With only 4 Gargadons as your sac outlet you run that risk you won't be able to use it and even then it's a once time effect that is a less than okay parlor trick.
I view my deck with the goal of a 'full combo' in mind. Garg suspended, Balance in hand, way to cast balance, and being able to ATTACK with gargadon the same turn I sacrifice all my lands -> balance. That's why I always run 4 gargadon. Sure it sucks when you draw 2 or more of them together but its 1000x better than drawing 0 in a game because its so essential to our combo. Which is why not only do I run 4 gargadon baseline (Turn 1 gargadon is very good for us), I also run either a grip of draw spells OR eladamris in 2+ so I can go grab him immediately. I want to suspend him super early so he doest need to eat as much later.
Without gargadon suspended we still have lands in play and when we still have lands in play they get to stabilize. Same thing with cards in hand, thats more chances they can stabilize. So I'm viewing this as an 'all in' combo deck. You could slow it down a bit for different things but Id rather be both consistent AND fast.
And youre right, brain + garg is a must to cast the balance, but thats 100% of the goal of my deck. Without garg suspended I dont balance. A+B+C combo. Without any part of these 3 (garg,balance,way to cast balance) the other parts don't work. You need all 3 **AND** sometimes like 7 or 8 or even 9 permanents to throw into gargadons mouth. Which is why Treasure map is so great here. Because not only does it smooth your mana, it also filters your draws, AND gives gargadon essentially about HALF the food he needs in one single card. And if I'm not dead, really don't care how much mana or turns I'm spending so long as Im faster than they clock me to 0 life. 1 time combo'ing off and almost all of my opponents just lose on the spot. Its so very rare that they can bounce back after I full combo.
And in this context, when I only need to resolve 1 balance to close the game, Brain in a jar is a strict upgrade. Why balance twice or more when 1 is all you need? The 2nd balance kills our gargadon.. And the first one WITHOUT gargadon in play reduces our balances in play for when we can combo off completely. It even lets me cheat the sorcery at instant speed. Its food for gargadon, as another huge upside. There might be a time where the extra mana could be an issue but almost all of the time its not going to be an issue. The case would be for a turn where you need 4 mana because of brain + tolaria west, for example. My deck is geared towards being low to the ground / fast start up so its not a huge issue IMO. I never have to mess with brain tokens unless I have 2 in play and extra mana to help me scry a bit. Its not needed to mess with tokens at all. Its there to be just 1 piece of the puzzle, not cast all the spells. I don't have any trouble casting spells.
Youre def right about things like Bitterblossom potentially being dangerous for us. Or a very similar card. Planeswalkers that make tokens are not an issue cuz you just kill them with gargadon in 1 attack.
I did post 2 lists above. Try one of the bottom 2 lists out (black one is just silly/fun version) and see how they play. Im liking the more streamlined approach. No fluff/filler.
Cascade: If you play this version you have to play at least 9 borderposts. The thing with the posts is, they keep your land count low allowing your Balances to wreak havoc on the opponent's land base. They also progress your board state. Once you Balance you're in a healthy position to keep playing threats. By threats I'm not including GG, even though it is one. You'll never be hardcasting it, and often you won't want to sac your posts because you'll need them to either respond to enemy threats, or play your own. When Loki is talking about cards pulling double duty like the Bow, the reason this is so relevant is that there's only so much room in the deck for the main combo, interaction, and threats. Cards like Bow will help with multiple aspects, making it really useful. Planeswalkers operate in much the same fashion. They provide immense value by having options, and they typically can't be dealt with post-Balance.
The main drawback to cascade version is that you must play 3+ CMC. Fortunately however they keep printing a slew of wonderful 3+ CMC cards like Monastery Siege/Supreme Will which pull double duty. It's what the deck needs more of honestly.
One of the benefits of the cascade version is that you're not required to have the Balance in hand, which is very beneficial. Instead of needing A+B+C=win, you only need a cascade spell and a couple posts. It does hurt more though when they Thoughtseize a cascade spell. With not needing as many cards to Balance, the deck can find other cards to fit in which help the deck. Having a couple different planeswalkers/threats/answers allow us to not be super reliant on the combo to close out the game.
I won many games off the back of Detention Sphere, Bow of Nylea, and Thassa, God of the Sea. I also ran Culling Scales in my version so I could consistently blow up anything less than 3 CMC. It was slow, but was devastating once you got going. Thassa has the added benefit of scry 1 every turn, AND can make herself unblockable in the late game. Bow was able to give her +1/+1 counters and typically I had at least 1 Ardent Plea on the field to turn her into an unblockable beast.
I know Thassa/Scales is completely off for most cascade versions, but I had a lot of fun with them.
Electro : The main benefit of this version is that you can play anything under 3 CMC. Namely this is Mox Opal/Mishra's Bauble/Astrolabe. They add a tad more speed to the deck and the extra draw that the cascade version doesn't have. In addition, lists that are spell heavy get the benefit of having As Foretold in the list. Once you get Foretold up to 3 counters, the opponent is going to have a hard time. You have counter mana available and free spells are free spells.
The biggest thing I notice about this version is that it's an all-or-nothing proposition. Once you Balance, you have to close out the game very quickly because you don't have many threats/answers. It's so devoted to the 'combo' that if you don't slam GG down after a Balance you're not likely to win. The problem with it is that GG is the only wincon. It's so easy for other decks to keep GG at bay because all they have to do is chump block him until they stabilize.
The problem I have with it is even though you have added speed, 3 card combo decks have never been competitive. It's too hard to find all 3 pieces of the combo, as well as interact early in the game. Splinter Twin was so successful because they could play the interaction game on turns 1-3 -> EoT on turn 3 play Exarch -> turn 4 combo and win. Pod was so resilient because it could find any answer quite easily, then combo out to close the game. This deck is a 3 card combo deck; if you don't have GG, Balance, and enabler, you will fold to pretty much every deck. It's so committed to the combo that a single counterspell or Remand is enough to ruin a game. It also has a very hard time interacting post-Balance because it's so committed to winning directly after Balance. In situations where you have to Balance to avoid losing, if you don't have GG it's just a matter of time before they land a 'walker or Tarmo or whatever. Then you're back to needing to Balance to survive.
Lastly, I would like to point out a few things about the borderposts that need to be noted. Borderposts are both a blessing and a curse. In the cascade version, they help keep the land count low so that you don't have to have GG in order to keep decks from getting to 4-5 lands. The downside is that if you take 2 turns to play posts and you get Stony Silenced, or Ancient Grudged it hurts, real bad. You basically start off on turn 1 even though it's turn 4. This is one of the reasons Mox Opal and company make the Electro version good. If someone blows up your Opal you haven't lost 2-3 turns playing it. You've only lost a 0 mana artifact and your opponent spent time playing their hate, which means they didn't play a threat. In the end, I honestly can't say either version is better than the other. I do think the cascade version is more well-rounded, but it definitely isn't perfect.
Sorry this post is a little long winded but I think it serves to demonstrate a few of the key differences between the two versions.
After typing this whole thing up, I ponder... is it possible to play a borderpost version with Electro? Food for thought until next time.
P.S. WotC please print Zuran Orb in modern.
So the only thing I found, when I played the very early version of the deck, The one back on page 1. I found being so hyper aggresive leaves you so vulnerable to everything else. The reason, as mentioned by vikingtraders, is that other combo decks can still protect/interact with the opponent. Restore balance only interacts with Restore balance. I like the hyper style you're going for, but I don't know if that is a viable option these days. Often times 1 balance isn't enough to seal games. Boggles, Affinity, Harden Scales (green affinity), and even Tron can rebound so quickly against us that wiping them constantly is our only way. But if you've blown through your gargadons, Brains, and even balances what else do you do.
Again, this is all dependant on your meta and your play style.
One way I've played around artifact hate, is to never play them in G2. I usually lean into a more heavy hand of lands/fetches for slower but less set back turns, not if I can ever afford 4 Prismatic Vista we can easily boost our mana base against such matchups since we'll be able to (or at least myself) play our basics way faster to pump out the posts way faster too.
Klothys looks tempting as it dodges most of our board wipes and allows mana generation post-balance?
Also Underworld Breach made me pause for a moment, seems very similar to finale of dominance, and has additional requirements so not convinced...
Thoughts on Klothys fitting balance shell as a clock? I'm not sure precisely what to swap out frankly but as it is a damage outlet could even consider rhinos/planeswalkers(?) maybe... Might also help the burn matchup? It does land at that 3 mana drop spot where we want to be dropping 'as foretold' or a cascade card but looks damn hard to remove at the same time... Maybe an 'ok' card to drop when behind(?) as opposed to Chandra etc.
I tried borderposts but like you said they are vulnerable to ancient grudge type cards. I do run a lot of artifacts but I got a pretty decent sideboard for such things, and the only real bad hate cards would be like stony silence and karn. Another 'odd' drawback of borderposts is that they put things back in your hand when IMO ideally you want to dump your hand entirely pre-balance.
Like I said, I don't really have a problem with people stabilizing post-balance. If I balance its GG every single time. I have yet to see someone stabilize afterwards. Even decks that have me low HP, with mountain+bolt or plains+path.
Def have not ran into the artifacts/enchantments that help chump block. Faeries would be a bad matchup for this reason (among others).
Klothys is too slow. Why not just win with gargadon post balance? And at 3 mana hes pretty clunky.
And that enchantment is just worse than Any of our enablers. Only upside is it only costs 1 red mana instead of 2 and thats really not hard to achieve. The 'exile 3 from your GY' is easy task to hit, its just not as good as electro, or as foretold, or brain, or bring to light, or finale, or any cascade in a cascade version.
I actually really like Klothys, God of Destiny for the cascade version. The upsides are: GY interaction, it's a wincon (even if it's really slow), mana post-Balance, lifegain, and if I understand the rules correctly would be able to deal 2 dmg to a 'walker per turn. It's devotion cost is high enough too where you wouldn't have to hold back on playing stuff worrying about it becoming a creature.
The downsides are it's pretty slow. It doesn't put a whole lot of pressure onto opponents either. It doesn't truly advance your board state even if it does stick around after Balance. All in all, it seems worthy of testing to me. I think 2 copies would be good for testing, but if I was to put it in a list I'd run only one. It gives multiple options, and that's never a bad thing.
Underworld Breach just seems bad to me. You'll only really use it to Balance. For the same cost I'd rather just play Finale.
@SunTzu - Do you ever run into people who know your deck? The reason I ask, people at my LGS who play hyper aggro like affinity can play differently to improve their odds against us. If an affinity player is smart they keep hands with Springleaf Drum, Mox Opal & Ornithopter. They'll sandbag the thopter in hand so if you can't remove it they have access to 2 mana post-Balance, even if you remove all lands. I've seen good affinity players that slow down a little bit and just play 1-2 threats and beat you with attrition rather than going for the quick kill. Might not be an issue for you if you can guarantee that GG is going to be swinging once you Balance. I've had players play me that study the deck and learn it's weaknesses. If the deck ever 'goes big' and becomes a good portion of the meta, you will see other decks adapt. Your version cannot be tuned to the meta. It's all-in or bust.
The biggest downside to your version is that you're so committed to Balancing that if you can't it's almost a 100% chance you're going to lose. There are so many decks that all they have to do is just play 1 threat and you literally HAVE to answer it or lose. For example, let's say you draw a nut hand of A+B+C. You suspend garg turn 1. My turn 1 I Thoughtseize removing Electrodominance. Then on my turn 2 I play Dark Confidant. Your ONLY option at this point is to hope and pray that you draw another Electrodominance or As Foretold. That's a pretty common thing I'd run into over the years, and your version has no way to protect itself against this. Me being the Confidant player, I will draw into more gas like Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Collector Ouphe, and/or more discard. You really have no way of beating me if I set this up on you. I know because it's been done to me, a lot.
Another good example would be Grixis Death's Shadow. If they do their typical 'kill myself' strategy and leave up a blue mana for Stubborn Denial, you literally have no way to win. They also have 7 main discard spells, and Drown in the Loch. I am fairly sure that you would only win 1 game out of 5 against this deck, with your version.
If you play the deck long enough you'll find there are situations where you literally must Balance before being able to suspend GG. Humans, Hardened Scales, Affinity, Burn, Bogles, Merfolk, and Infect all have the ability to win on the play very early. Sure it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough where they can rush you into Balancing early. If you Balance once before being able to suspend GG, how are you going to make sure they don't play 1-2 threats and beat you down in 4-5 turns? Having GG as your only wincon means you must 'combo' correctly every time or you will lose.
In addition, against all of these decks Scheming Symmetry gives them an answer to your deck on a silver platter. Sure they have to wait until their turn to draw it. I like the idea as a rogue deck player, I really do. There's a reason that it doesn't get used in competitive decks. Giving the opponent a free card from their deck is literal mtg suicide. If it was an instant, it would be way different. The thing is, you have to have either a way to draw the card after casting it, or be able to Codex their card away so they don't get their answer. It sets up your combo nicely but what it doesn't do is slow your opponent down.
As you play the deck more against a variety of decks I think you'll see what I mean. There are some decks you just won't be able to beat.
First we have Eldrazi Tron showing up 8.29% of the time. They're packing 4x Chalice of the Void, 4x Karn, the Great Creator, 4x Thought-knot Seer, and 2x Warping Wail. Ouch; before sideboard even. Imprisoned in the Moon is a decent answer to this deck but honestly I'm not sure if it's enough. I'm thinking countermagic might be a good option here. If we can't Balance away their lands we need a good backup plan imo.
Second, BUG artifacts showing up 6.79%. They run 3x Spell Queller, 4x Oko, Thief of Crowns, 3x Metallic Rebuke, 3x Cryptic Command, and 3x Engineered Explosives. They're also running Mox Opal and Gilded Goose to give them a bit more speed. If that isn't bad enough they're also running 4x Damping Sphere in the side. Again, I think countermagic could be a solid option here.
Third, Bant Snow Control showing up 4.08%. This one isn't quite as bad with 3x Spell Queller, 3x Oko, Thief of Crowns, 3x Teferi, Time Raveler, 2x Force of Negation, and 2x Mystical Dispute. They also have 3x Damping Sphere in the side. The big one here is Teferi. With him on the field we won't ever get to Balance. They can also protect it with Dispute.
These 3 top decks represent about 20% of the competitive meta. Some of the other decks showing up are 4 color Death's Shadow, Amulet Titan, Infect, Burn, Dredge, Humans, and Jund. Each of them has little advantages against us except for Amulet Titan.
My thoughts are having a basic Balance shell while being able to include really good cards, which will make us a bit more competitive if the Balance plan gets hated on. I think planeswalkers are a solid option as they provide a lot of value post-Balance and most of them are decent wincons on their own. A careful selection of the right colors and abilities should be discussed. We want walkers that provide extreme value in keeping our board state in control, and also act as wincons.
I also think there needs to be at least 8 slots dedicated to some form of critter control. I like Path to Exile, Dismember, and Lightning Bolt here. If cascade version, Dismember is good as is Rift Bolt and the aforementioned Imprisoned in the Moon.
For countermagic, I think around 7-8 spots sounds ideal. We want to be able to keep key threats off the board. We are able to run the same package of either Mystical Dispute or Metallic Rebuke. I also like Remand as it replaces itself. Cryptic Command seems legit but at 4 CMC and UUU to boot I think it should be left out myself.
The more I look at what's going on in the meta, I think a borderpost version that runs As Foretold and Electrodominance is going to be the best option. It gives it upsides of being able to play posts (keep land count low without garg) and also contributes to Mox Opal. In addition, that would give us more opportunity to experiment with cheap spells that do a lot of work like Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, Path to Exile, countermagic, etc.
What do you guys think? How do we handle some of the nasty cards in the meta like Chalice, Karn, Teferi, Spell Queller etc?
Myself I want a good amount of interaction, the balance shell, and a fair amount of threats to keep up. The problem is our deck only has so much room to work with!
Current list I am using has 4x finale of promise which feels better against control/discard matchups. Also I have izzet charm to help me pitch the awful 3x gargadon hand or if I have finale and need to pitch balance etc. I've tried pulling out the serum visions / opts for other control cards but then the list feels clunky.
The exclusion of simian spirit guide is back and forth - the extra speed can be ok but I find it is a bit 'all in' if the spell the guide was pitched for gets countered - also drawing these in multiples is pure pain...
Any thoughts on mystic sanctuary? I know we nuke our lands but as mystic sanctuary itself counts as an island(?) you should only need 2 in play beforehand(??) and it can be a nice way to recur balance / ancestral vision / footfalls depending on need. As noted not every game ends with the first balance. Also since it is an island being able to grab it with a fetchland can make it into a silver bullet... On the flip side we run low land counts typically and having it come into play tapped can be death in certain MU/draws...
1x Island
4x Mountain
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Spirebluff Canal
4x Steam Vents
4x As Foretold
4x Greater Gargadon
4x Crashing Footfalls
4x Finale of Promise
4x Restore Balance
4x Serum Visions
4x Electrodominance
2x Izzet Charm
2x Lightning Bolt
4x Opt
2x Abrade
3x Anger of the Gods
4x Blood Moon
4x Force of Negation
2x Pithing Needle