Hi guys, i posted some pages ago and being off from magic a couple months. Now i´m back. Good thing that the meta didn't change so much.
So, i make some changes in my old decklist, some cards are proxied for tests that i will make this weekend. That´s it:
I´m not sure about the sideboard yet, but now i have the following:
4 Ricochet Trap
3 Patrician's Scorn or Wispmare
2 Boom/Bust
Blood Moon and Leylines are must, and Kor Firewalker seems nice, i will fit these somewhere.
Some notes:
I know that 4 balances is a lot, i still training my mind to change this;
I like Culling Scales, so i will give it a chance;
Hooting Mandrills is a very good card in this deck, a 4/4 trample for potential 1 mana after balance. I think that better than Tasigur because its evasion;
Beetween Gideon and Kiora i decided to use Gideon because he´s a faster finisher and have a good control ability.
Bring to Light seems a very good choice, but i will wait for replies of it for now.
So, any suggestion/thoughts?
Some notes:
I know that 4 balances is a lot, i still training my mind to change this;
I like Culling Scales, so i will give it a chance;
Hooting Mandrills is a very good card in this deck, a 4/4 trample for potential 1 mana after balance. I think that better than Tasigur because its evasion;
Beetween Gideon and Kiora i decided to use Gideon because he´s a faster finisher and have a good control ability.
Bring to Light seems a very good choice, but i will wait for replies of it for now.
So, any suggestion/thoughts?
4 Restore Balance is your bread and butter for a deck that needs to maintain a lopsided board state. Even one Tarmogoat can ruin your day given the amount of cards that end up in the yard.
Wispmare all the way. If your opponent is playing White and you even suspect that they will be playing Stony Silence put them in and fetch for a Plains immediately. Patrician's Scorn is just terrible.
Boom/Bust is not great for the reasons I posted earlier (for those too lazy to look, no choice in Cascade hit can make you lose to a creature established board).
Ricochet Trap - Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner. 3-4 of these is good.
On the topic of Bring to Light it will require a paradigm shift in how the deck finishes the game to make it feasible. I am thinking of making some of the Theros Gods the really good finisher of the deck. Currently I run Thassa in my Mainboard, but Keranos is real good given the lack of lands in the deck. It basically turns your deck into a lightning bolt generator.
Unfortunately, i didn´t make the tests i want due to problems on my work. I make only one match against BW tokens. I won 2-1, here some info:
Win game 1. Balanced on turn 4. The tokens try to recover with Lingering Souls, but i oblivion the Intangible Virtue and drop Hooting Mandrills with an Ardent Plea. Chump blockers? Not enough.
Lose game 2 with a not-too-good hand and a little discard sequence in my cascaders. I still have problems with mulligans.
Win game 3 in a standard match. Balanced 2 times, the second thanks to SSG and Outburst (i had sac the lands to Gargadon), which finishes the job.
Oh, no sideboard hate from the tokens.
Now i know why Mandrills was called the pauper Tarmogoyf, he´s really good. With a little help of exalted he close games. Culling Scales is nice, but don´t work well alone. You need a bait for the ability (Darksteel Ingot). Otherwise you must wait for the opponent drop 2-3 cards, which makes it too slow. At this point, another balance is much better. It can work if you put 3-4 copies of Scales and Ingot each, but this changes the deck. I don´t know if it the best way.
Certanily my lost on G2 was because lack of practice than any other thing. But the deck really NEEDS to cascade. But i still love this deck.
Cocaktrice Game Room Quotes
[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
So i saw this list got top 8 so i build it. Does anybody know if the owner of the build post here if so who is it would love to shoot him a message. I been loving the list just i really wonder why so much mana 29 lands seem like so much and when you're on top deck mode you get lands. also the side board Mistveil Plains whats it for ? what type of hands should i keep/ not keep?
The worst mistake you can make in deck building is putting "25 lands" or in this case, "25 mana sources"
Apparently, you don't understand what lazy means, nor have you looked into my history of working with this deck (including all the calcs and different tech I have tried).
A lot of my lazyness stems from the fact this forum is garbage to work with on a mobile device more specifically using deck tags and card tags is a hassle.
So i saw this list got top 8 so i build it. Does anybody know if the owner of the build post here if so who is it would love to shoot him a message. I been loving the list just i really wonder why so much mana 29 lands seem like so much and when you're on top deck mode you get lands. also the side board Mistveil Plains whats it for ? what type of hands should i keep/ not keep?
No idea. Mistveil Plains is there for grindy matches. It's easy to get White permanents and it lets you recycle Balances and Cascaders.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
@doghotcat: I think that´s a lot too. Spitlebug had make the maths, but lowered the number of posts recently. The list already have 4 SSG; this raise the mana sources to 33. Also, he didn´t put anything that can use the excess of posts, like March of the Machines or any Tezzeret. Jace for me is a bit useless, and no Ajani Vengeant seems wrong.
For the hands keepable, i´m not sure. At least 1 cascader, 1 land and other 1-2 mana sources (posts/SSG), and a control element. You don´t have to afraid the mulligans, this deck likes it.
I want to see the results with Bring to Light, the card seems faster than other tutors discussed here, and don´t need a fifth color, at least for my list.
So i saw this list got top 8 so i build it. Does anybody know if the owner of the build post here if so who is it would love to shoot him a message. I been loving the list just i really wonder why so much mana 29 lands seem like so much and when you're on top deck mode you get lands. also the side board Mistveil Plains whats it for ? what type of hands should i keep/ not keep?
Is there any good reason this person is not running cards like Vendillion Clique in this deck? I ended making the other tournament version of this deck where you include plansewalkers like Ajani Vegeant and cards such as Vendillion Clique. I'm adding 1 Vendillion Clique so that way I only have to play 2 dismember. This means I will only have 3 double blue cards in my deck including 2 Jace, Architect of Thought. How are you suppose to handle having all these double blue cards in the deck? You had that version of this deck where they run 3 Vendillion Clique and 2 Jace, Artichet of Thought. How do they handle having all those double blue cards?
Is there a reason that I'm missing as to why evolving wilds over other fetches?
If you are running Borderposts, you don't need true fetches to Cascade turn 3. Essentially they don't speed up your clock any more than Simian Spirit Guide does.
Also, Tezzeret and Gideon, Ally are the new go-to Planeswalkers. They work really really well in this deck. Tezzeret finishes the game ASAP whereas Gideon can just make grindy games very favourable. His +0 works well with Gargadon making it come out much faster and he can chump block for days. Post Balance he beats in pretty good, most noteably with Plea on the board.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Just as a personal note for those who don't want to comb through the thread here are the variants and different tech angles I have tested:
- Hypergeometric Base Model of 8 Cascader, 16 Posts, 12 Land Build: The build is fine on paper as far as making sure the engine went off without a hitch. I did end up raising the land count to make it more reliable, while simultaneously lowering the Borderpost count. The rationale for fewer Borderposts was the lack of threat/finisher density required to actually close out games. Replacing Borderposts with finishers increased win rate.
- Idyllic Tutor Build: A heavy on enchantments using mostly March of the Machines/Thassa, God of the Sea/Blood Moon as finishers. It was okay, but often the tutor would get countered and you were left holding useless cards where the tutor would have gotten you the piece you needed. It was basically a trap in thinking hands were keep able because you had the tutor in hand. If I were to go back, I would just replace the tutor with a finisher one could naturally draw into.
- Perplex Build: Perplex worked well as a tutor for 3 CMC cards. The tutor was nigh impossible to counter since it is an ability of the card and not a spell. The reliance on B made the card difficult to play effectively. The other downside was that this build used irregular or not as effective finishers such as Simic Keyrune which is a really slow clock and had the negative effect of being even more susceptible to Stony Silence. Regardless this build had some sweet tech like Blood Moon and Bow of Nylea.
- Jund Build: This build tossed out as much of the U and W as possible. It just doesn't have the finishers and Demonic Dread is unreliable without a Dryad Arbor in the list. This build was just awful. If anyone else wants to take a crack at it, I would love to hear what your results are.
Is there a reason that I'm missing as to why evolving wilds over other fetches?
If you are running Borderposts, you don't need true fetches to Cascade turn 3. Essentially they don't speed up your clock any more than Simian Spirit Guide does.
Also, Tezzeret and Gideon, Ally are the new go-to Planeswalkers. They work really really well in this deck. Tezzeret finishes the game ASAP whereas Gideon can just make grindy games very favourable. His +0 works well with Gargadon making it come out much faster and he can chump block for days. Post Balance he beats in pretty good, most noteably with Plea on the board.
I guess turn 1 boarder posting isn't worth the 1 life?
I guess turn 1 boarder posting isn't worth the 1 life?
You can T1 Borderpost by ditching a Simian Spirit Guide. All-in-all it just nets you one less card in hand. You can just ditch that Simian Spirit Guide to go off on T2 anyway, if required. Bar none, you aren't doing anything T1 unless you have the super duper draw, and can't wait for a decent payoff.
I would suggest true fetches if you were running a more three colour reliant deck in that you can get perfect cross over for three colours using 6 fetches. It's not ideal.
The real hobble to this deck is having a distinct lack of a couple of much needed off colour combo Borderposts. If we had those it would open up the deck in many appealing ways as far as mana distribution goes.
The Planeswalkers I favour right now Are Tezz, Seeker and Gideon, Ally. Third on the list is Ajani Vengeant.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Back to thread now. After doing a lot of tests and researches (more research than test; my work doesn´t allow to play regularly), i decided to look back and take an old route, with some additions. I will play with the hypergeometric list for now, putting more threats. Here´s the updated list:
This list have, with Ajani, 15 resilient wincons (no Bolts and Decays; only Path in some cases, and Dismember in others).
Manabarbs rarely wins the game by itself, but i found it useful againt decks that try to recover fast. Against controls is great too because of the ton of resources used: manlands (Celestial Colonnade), and other impact cards like Cryptic Command.
I decided to not have creatures during the balances. Or you lose your threat in case you need another cascade, or you leave the opponent with a creature, which can screw your day.
My newest addition is Gruul War Plow. He solves a common problem of our wincons, and is a wincon by itself. Gargadon, Keyrune, Plate Mail, Gideon, Kiora, Thassa, and animated posts suffers the lack of evasion, and can be chumpblocked to giving time to our opponent. We don´t have time. My great mistake was treated this deck as a weird control deck. The deck needs to be simple and consistent.
Of course, all that i said here is my opinion and personal preference. My list is not better than any other (maybe is worse in a lot of ways), i just think that this way it fits my playstyle.
Feel free to comment, praise or burn me in a bonfire.
Changing things up. I am looking into tuning for Bring to Light. It is by far the best all around tutor and can act as Cascade spell 9-12.
This deck still struggles with Burn. So bad, so very bad.
Anyway, I am going to put together a 4-of Bring to Light build. See how it works and trim/substitute from there.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
It can. Thassa is a prime target for it as is Nylea. Both can get the required devotion, though Thassa is usually faster.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
So, i make some changes in my old decklist, some cards are proxied for tests that i will make this weekend. That´s it:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Island
Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Firewild Borderpost
4 Wildfield Borderpost
Cascaders
4 Restore Balance
4 Violent Outburst
4 Ardent Plea
3 Beast Within
3 Culling Scales
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Gideon Jura
I´m not sure about the sideboard yet, but now i have the following:
4 Ricochet Trap
3 Patrician's Scorn or Wispmare
2 Boom/Bust
Blood Moon and Leylines are must, and Kor Firewalker seems nice, i will fit these somewhere.
Some notes:
I know that 4 balances is a lot, i still training my mind to change this;
I like Culling Scales, so i will give it a chance;
Hooting Mandrills is a very good card in this deck, a 4/4 trample for potential 1 mana after balance. I think that better than Tasigur because its evasion;
Beetween Gideon and Kiora i decided to use Gideon because he´s a faster finisher and have a good control ability.
Bring to Light seems a very good choice, but i will wait for replies of it for now.
So, any suggestion/thoughts?
4 Restore Balance is your bread and butter for a deck that needs to maintain a lopsided board state. Even one Tarmogoat can ruin your day given the amount of cards that end up in the yard.
Wispmare all the way. If your opponent is playing White and you even suspect that they will be playing Stony Silence put them in and fetch for a Plains immediately. Patrician's Scorn is just terrible.
Boom/Bust is not great for the reasons I posted earlier (for those too lazy to look, no choice in Cascade hit can make you lose to a creature established board).
Ricochet Trap - Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner. 3-4 of these is good.
On the topic of Bring to Light it will require a paradigm shift in how the deck finishes the game to make it feasible. I am thinking of making some of the Theros Gods the really good finisher of the deck. Currently I run Thassa in my Mainboard, but Keranos is real good given the lack of lands in the deck. It basically turns your deck into a lightning bolt generator.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Win game 1. Balanced on turn 4. The tokens try to recover with Lingering Souls, but i oblivion the Intangible Virtue and drop Hooting Mandrills with an Ardent Plea. Chump blockers? Not enough.
Lose game 2 with a not-too-good hand and a little discard sequence in my cascaders. I still have problems with mulligans.
Win game 3 in a standard match. Balanced 2 times, the second thanks to SSG and Outburst (i had sac the lands to Gargadon), which finishes the job.
Oh, no sideboard hate from the tokens.
Now i know why Mandrills was called the pauper Tarmogoyf, he´s really good. With a little help of exalted he close games.
Culling Scales is nice, but don´t work well alone. You need a bait for the ability (Darksteel Ingot). Otherwise you must wait for the opponent drop 2-3 cards, which makes it too slow. At this point, another balance is much better. It can work if you put 3-4 copies of Scales and Ingot each, but this changes the deck. I don´t know if it the best way.
Certanily my lost on G2 was because lack of practice than any other thing. But the deck really NEEDS to cascade. But i still love this deck.
The worst mistake you can make in deck building is putting "25 lands" or in this case, "25 mana sources"
Cockatrice username- Chrismp19.
Formats played: Modern
Avatar and Sig created by http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182339
Cocaktrice Game Room Quotes
[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
So i saw this list got top 8 so i build it. Does anybody know if the owner of the build post here if so who is it would love to shoot him a message. I been loving the list just i really wonder why so much mana 29 lands seem like so much and when you're on top deck mode you get lands. also the side board Mistveil Plains whats it for ? what type of hands should i keep/ not keep?
Apparently, you don't understand what lazy means, nor have you looked into my history of working with this deck (including all the calcs and different tech I have tried).
A lot of my lazyness stems from the fact this forum is garbage to work with on a mobile device more specifically using deck tags and card tags is a hassle.
It needs some work.
No idea. Mistveil Plains is there for grindy matches. It's easy to get White permanents and it lets you recycle Balances and Cascaders.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
For the hands keepable, i´m not sure. At least 1 cascader, 1 land and other 1-2 mana sources (posts/SSG), and a control element. You don´t have to afraid the mulligans, this deck likes it.
I want to see the results with Bring to Light, the card seems faster than other tutors discussed here, and don´t need a fifth color, at least for my list.
If you are running Borderposts, you don't need true fetches to Cascade turn 3. Essentially they don't speed up your clock any more than Simian Spirit Guide does.
Also, Tezzeret and Gideon, Ally are the new go-to Planeswalkers. They work really really well in this deck. Tezzeret finishes the game ASAP whereas Gideon can just make grindy games very favourable. His +0 works well with Gargadon making it come out much faster and he can chump block for days. Post Balance he beats in pretty good, most noteably with Plea on the board.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
- Hypergeometric Base Model of 8 Cascader, 16 Posts, 12 Land Build: The build is fine on paper as far as making sure the engine went off without a hitch. I did end up raising the land count to make it more reliable, while simultaneously lowering the Borderpost count. The rationale for fewer Borderposts was the lack of threat/finisher density required to actually close out games. Replacing Borderposts with finishers increased win rate.
- Idyllic Tutor Build: A heavy on enchantments using mostly March of the Machines/Thassa, God of the Sea/Blood Moon as finishers. It was okay, but often the tutor would get countered and you were left holding useless cards where the tutor would have gotten you the piece you needed. It was basically a trap in thinking hands were keep able because you had the tutor in hand. If I were to go back, I would just replace the tutor with a finisher one could naturally draw into.
- Perplex Build: Perplex worked well as a tutor for 3 CMC cards. The tutor was nigh impossible to counter since it is an ability of the card and not a spell. The reliance on B made the card difficult to play effectively. The other downside was that this build used irregular or not as effective finishers such as Simic Keyrune which is a really slow clock and had the negative effect of being even more susceptible to Stony Silence. Regardless this build had some sweet tech like Blood Moon and Bow of Nylea.
- Jund Build: This build tossed out as much of the U and W as possible. It just doesn't have the finishers and Demonic Dread is unreliable without a Dryad Arbor in the list. This build was just awful. If anyone else wants to take a crack at it, I would love to hear what your results are.
So now I am at a cross roads where I have been testing new tech. Bring to Light and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar seem like good fits for the deck as does Ghirapur Æther Grid. Self admittedly, Ghirapur Æther Grid seems like sideboard tech for decks like Affinity. I am not sold as to whether it is better than Ingot Chewer in the long run.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar has been really promising.
I feel like at this moment a good shell for testing will be 8 Cascader, 12 Posts, 13 Lands.
I have been waffling on dig cards too. It feels bad when you have a dig spell in hand but it could have just been a finisher.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
I guess turn 1 boarder posting isn't worth the 1 life?
You can T1 Borderpost by ditching a Simian Spirit Guide. All-in-all it just nets you one less card in hand. You can just ditch that Simian Spirit Guide to go off on T2 anyway, if required. Bar none, you aren't doing anything T1 unless you have the super duper draw, and can't wait for a decent payoff.
I would suggest true fetches if you were running a more three colour reliant deck in that you can get perfect cross over for three colours using 6 fetches. It's not ideal.
The real hobble to this deck is having a distinct lack of a couple of much needed off colour combo Borderposts. If we had those it would open up the deck in many appealing ways as far as mana distribution goes.
The Planeswalkers I favour right now Are Tezz, Seeker and Gideon, Ally. Third on the list is Ajani Vengeant.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Mountain
2 Forest
Creatures
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Firewild Borderpost
4 Wildfield Borderpost
2 Mistvein Borderpost
2 Veinfire Borderpost
Utilyties/Wincons
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Dismember
1 Reminisce
3 Gruul War Plow
3 Manabarbs
3 March of the Machines
2 Ajani Vengeant
This list have, with Ajani, 15 resilient wincons (no Bolts and Decays; only Path in some cases, and Dismember in others).
Manabarbs rarely wins the game by itself, but i found it useful againt decks that try to recover fast. Against controls is great too because of the ton of resources used: manlands (Celestial Colonnade), and other impact cards like Cryptic Command.
I decided to not have creatures during the balances. Or you lose your threat in case you need another cascade, or you leave the opponent with a creature, which can screw your day.
My newest addition is Gruul War Plow. He solves a common problem of our wincons, and is a wincon by itself. Gargadon, Keyrune, Plate Mail, Gideon, Kiora, Thassa, and animated posts suffers the lack of evasion, and can be chumpblocked to giving time to our opponent. We don´t have time. My great mistake was treated this deck as a weird control deck. The deck needs to be simple and consistent.
Of course, all that i said here is my opinion and personal preference. My list is not better than any other (maybe is worse in a lot of ways), i just think that this way it fits my playstyle.
Feel free to comment, praise or burn me in a bonfire.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R