I thought about emarkul, but I just don't have any room in the main for the emarkul. I could see a sencario where I cut the worm harvest for 1 Nahiri to go up to 3 and 1 emarkul either promised end or aeons torn.
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I thought about emarkul, but I just don't have any room in the main for the emarkul. I could see a sencario where I cut the worm harvest for 1 Nahiri to go up to 3 and 1 emarkul either promised end or aeons torn.
I think the choice crucially depends on what you want to do. There is no way of casting Big Emmi, whereas Emrakul, the Promised End might be castable with a filled graveyard. The stronger of the two, especially regarding the inclusion of Nahiri, is probably the first one, Annihilator 6 is the key point I think. Do you have an actual list for reference?
True that. As a possible reanimation target he finishes the job in at least two turns, trample helps a lot I suppose. Protection from only instants and no immediate effect on the board might be issues though, I have seen people cutting Iona for precisely this reason. Might be worth a try though, especially with Nahiri in the build.
Edit (and to keep the thread going): Now that KCI is banned I might as well bring this up here. I always had a little trouble putting together my sideboard, the usual GY interaction being 3 Surgicals and 1 Extirpate, I also used to bring 3 Stony Silence to the table usually, which is still valid in the face of Hardened Scales probably? What's your take on that, do you play more sweepers (e.g. Flaying Tendrils or the newly spoiled Cry of the Carnarium) or even more GY interaction?
The card from the new set that interests me is growth spiral. It replaces itself and can potentially ramp you. My issue with 4 color gifts after the deathrite shaman ban was that it was too slow, and the other mana dorks/ramp weren't good enough. Now there's this potential card that acts as ramp that's playable in a control shell.
Does anyone want to take a crack at it? I guess you'd probably want to play less sorcery speed cards.
As you know, it has made some (apparent) impact on UWx Miracles recently. In the Gifts shell I have some concerns however, the nice thing with Deathrite (or Birds, which I used as a replacement) was a potential turn 2 Liliana of the Veil, which was (and probably is) devastating for many decks. This is of course not possible with Growth Spiral, which additionally puts another constraint on the mana, since we want B on turn 1 and UG on turn 2 into BB turn 3 again, whereas turn 4 there is also a need for W for the flashback costs of Unburial Rites.
Nevertheless it is worth a try, one can potentially streamline the list a little bit to give it a little tempo boost. I am not sure whether you have seen the list I was running recently, based on this I would make the following suggestion:
I used to run 25 lands without dorks and removed a Temple Garden and a Marsh Flats to reduce to 23 lands in this list, which should be fine based on the experiences I have heard of from the Bant Draw-Go Control thread. I also used to run an Ensnaring Bridge in the main artifact package, having another natural synergy with Raven's Crime and Lingering Souls. This makes it possible to stall the board state for a couple of turns such that Gifts can take over. Maybe this isn't necessary anymore due to the gain in tempo. In no circumstance I would cut one of the LotV or the Jace, they have shown to be crucial, especially in grindy matchups. As always, feel free to comment on both main- and sideboard.
Glad to see others have been mulling over the new card. It definitely opens up a new way to ramp for a control shell but it strains our mana if we want to cast inquisition, thoughtseize, and liliana. What I have been thinking of was to go more blue heavy, cutting discard for counters. We will have the option to either ramp or counter a spell on turn 2 and relieve the tension of color requirements. A neat thing about growth spiral is that it gives us one more mana to use the same turn. Push and path are obvious options but past turn 2, it gives us a lot more flexibility with our mana. Liliana is such an integral part of the deck but i may fiddle around with different cards. I want to find another sticky or impactful threat but i dont know if goyfs and grim flayers would be good in a controlling shell (I have been playing abzan gifts for the longest time).
Looking forward to what the new cards and meta will bring for gifts!
True that. As a possible reanimation target he finishes the job in at least two turns, trample helps a lot I suppose. Protection from only instants and no immediate effect on the board might be issues though, I have seen people cutting Iona for precisely this reason. Might be worth a try though, especially with Nahiri in the build.
Edit (and to keep the thread going): Now that KCI is banned I might as well bring this up here. I always had a little trouble putting together my sideboard, the usual GY interaction being 3 Surgicals and 1 Extirpate, I also used to bring 3 Stony Silence to the table usually, which is still valid in the face of Hardened Scales probably? What's your take on that, do you play more sweepers (e.g. Flaying Tendrils or the newly spoiled Cry of the Carnarium) or even more GY interaction?
As you know, it has made some (apparent) impact on UWx Miracles recently. In the Gifts shell I have some concerns however, the nice thing with Deathrite (or Birds, which I used as a replacement) was a potential turn 2 Liliana of the Veil, which was (and probably is) devastating for many decks. This is of course not possible with Growth Spiral, which additionally puts another constraint on the mana, since we want B on turn 1 and UG on turn 2 into BB turn 3 again, whereas turn 4 there is also a need for W for the flashback costs of Unburial Rites.
Nevertheless it is worth a try, one can potentially streamline the list a little bit to give it a little tempo boost. I am not sure whether you have seen the list I was running recently, based on this I would make the following suggestion:
I used to run 25 lands without dorks and removed a Temple Garden and a Marsh Flats to reduce to 23 lands in this list, which should be fine based on the experiences I have heard of from the Bant Draw-Go Control thread. I also used to run an Ensnaring Bridge in the main artifact package, having another natural synergy with Raven's Crime and Lingering Souls. This makes it possible to stall the board state for a couple of turns such that Gifts can take over. Maybe this isn't necessary anymore due to the gain in tempo. In no circumstance I would cut one of the LotV or the Jace, they have shown to be crucial, especially in grindy matchups. As always, feel free to comment on both main- and sideboard.
- I find it interesting you have Loam mainboard but no Raven mainboard?
- I feel like your list is lacking sweepers/ removal in your 75 to fight decks like humans
Well this was a list I pretty rapidly put together, I considered cutting Loam but it just is an awesome engine in many situations, especially in very grindy matchups which I have mostly played (that is, tested) recently. Sometimes it is just enough to recur a couple of fetch lands to secure land drops, occasionally a Tectonic Edge isn't bad either to keep UWx from reaching Cryptic Command mana and of course it establishes a loop together with Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives. My 'standard' list I'd carry to an FNM currently has Crime/Loam in the main together. Also, I would agree that -2/-2 might be not enough currently, although it permanently gets Phoenix and Bloodghast. Would you rather run a Languish on the side?
Humans is a tough one indeed (therefore I got 2 Torpor Orbs in the board). But the list plays 9 removal spells + 4 Liliana + Damnation + Engineered Explosives + 2 Snapcaster Mage, that is 17 ways to get rid of stuff. How high would you like to go with your removal slots? Against decks like Infect (or Izzet Fiend if you like) the matchup is incredibly favorable due to the sheer abundance of removal. Then do not forget the 5 discard slots for turn 1, I feel that this is one of the stronger things this deck does, being proactive feels quite good against a number of decks.
To come back to the idea regarding Growth Spiral: I'm not sold on it yet. As mentioned, it does put additional strain on the mana base, which is something we can't really afford as you probably agree. One possibility could be to skip the heavy lean towards B and consequently cut LotV, the early discard and possibly Damnation in favour of a package of counterspells, different sweepers (maybe Terminus in conjunction with more JTMS and Teferi?). Effectively it would be something like UWGb Control with the option of sweet Gifts piles, given the opportunity one can even keep Raven's Crime together with the single Urborg. I have not come as far as putting together a list, but it may be worth a try. What do you think?
Edit: The stock list could eventually replace Tectonic Edge with Bojuka Bog for main GY hate and an additional B source, since Trophy can now take on lands if necessary? Draws including Edge are sometimes a little awkward and B is by far the main colour of my build, another EtB-tapped land sucks though...
Going to do a quick tournament report on my Dark Jeskai Gifts deck. (4-1-1), Lost in QuarterFinals
Round 1 (2-0) Black-Red Burn:
- Game 1: I was on the play and kept a hand with Liliana and Gifts Ungiven. I fatal pushed his goblin guide, and Liliana into an empty board and force him to bin multiple burn spells (I top decked 3 non-land spells), eventually hit my 4th land, Gifts into Iona and named Red. This wasn't a game breaker similar to White-Red burn, but he had Bump in the night to bypass Iona naming Red
- Game 2: Similar to game 1, I brutality away his ravenous trap and combo.
(boarded in 2 Kolaghan's command, 2 Wear // Tear, 2 Timely Reinforcements, and 2 Nihil spellbombs - cycle or to prevent his graveyard for hitting a potential bedlam revelar.) Not much in the sideboard for this matchup, the 4 mainboard brutalities were to cover this matchup
Round 2 (2-0) Sun and Moon:
- Game 1: He opened with a Leyline of Sanctity. I had Vendilion Clique, Liliana of the veil, Gifts Ungiven and later drew into my one dragonlord Silumgar. I passed turn 3 with 3 mana open. He played his Nahiri, the harbringer. I flashed in my Vendilion Clique and took a chuck out of her loyalty. Then I played my Liliana of the Veil and started to tick up (discarding my dead fatal pushes). On turn 5, he had 1 card in hand. I draw my land, Liliana both player discard, in response he cast out targeting my liliana. I hard casted my Dragonlord Silumgar and stole his Nahiri and immediately used her -2 to remove the cast out from my Liliana. We went to game 2
- Game 2: Pretty grindy, a lot of back and forth with his sideboard Rest in Peace, Baneslayers, Legion Warboss. Early in the game, he could have had the opportunity to stick an early blood moon and shut down most of my mana base, but he never drew the blood moon. He got into an early aggressive start with Legion Warboss and Simian Spirit Guide. At one point I had to K command, kill the SSG and make myself discard because I couldn't target him because of his leyline, but the early aggression mostly worn off and I over powered him with my Nahiri and Dragonlord Silumgar once the early threat game off
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I've been fan of this deck when it was still played with DRS. Since it got banned I turned to other decks, but always came back to this archetype when brewing on paper.
I written down so many lists, but always felt I had to cut too many important cards to stay under at 60 cards. You can play so many good cards, that it would almost feel OK to play 75 main deck and just add more copies of cards you now can play only once or twice. I think this is a big weakness of the deck. It is not streamlined like UWx, which has more alot of 4 offs and aquite lineair gamelan.
I have read a lot of pages and I think with the amount of bolts and even gutshots in the meta, it's not profitable to play Birds. I do think it is very important to play some sort of card selection, since this deck is a control deck, but does not play cantrips like UW does. It's very possible to draw the wrong part of your deck in certain MUs and not have many ways to fix this problem since most of the time you are depending on your topdeck or gifts piles.
I included 3 serum Visions and an Azcanta in the deck to deal with this problem. I do not know if that is sufficient, for example UW already struggles with just 4 opt. (although they lean on miracles so they need the cantrips like that, but in general, when I compare this deck with the old legacy Bug landstill Lists I used to play 10 years back, brainstorm was just so important when playing control. Scry 2 is alot if you think about it and I like to test this.
I do like the idea of Ensnaring Bridge. I do see how this might work with Liliana (it might maybe be better to play 4 when playing bridge though, I hope to get some feedback on this). As a long time lantern player, I know the impact of bridge and like how this can win alot of games. This does mean though that play loam is in the maindeck otherwise a package doesn't work (unless you play something like noxious revival maybe, but I always loved a 1 off loam, so I really want to play this main deck).
This more of an esper thing maybe. But I also really like thopter foundry. I play this combination in my Artifact decks with much succes and the power is not to be underestimated. Since this deck is lacking an actual wincondition (except Jace and maybe Iona beats or even lingering souls beats, although I might be mistaken here. It just feels like the opponent has to deal with 3 different threats to lock you frok an actual wincondition), this might be an interesting addition. The colors are perfect, it's just that sword of the Meek on itself is useless in a deck that does not do anything else with Artifacts. It is a great discard target for liliana and collective brutality though. I would love to discuss this engine as two one-offs in this deck. I haven't seen it in the recent lists and maybe it already proven to be not good, but anyway I'd love to hear more about it. (the life gain may also be relevant when playing fetch-shock-Thoughtseize).
Lastly I am not a great fan of trophy. It is good against certain decks, like Tron. But in general it's a great removal with a very poor drawback, which I don't like in a deck that does not attack the mana base of the opponent full on. I would put 1 or 2 in the sideboard for the MUs in which it is needed, but don't actually feel like playing it maindeck. The only reason for me is including one for a gifts package.
Alright, this is what I cooked up with alot of inspiration of the recent lists here in the group. Again, I haven't tested this particular list but hope to write some more test experiences later on.
1) I been very happy with my 60 card main. As I explained in an earlier post, having nearly 17 discard outlets in the form of 4 Jace VP, 3 Liliana of the Veil, 4 Collective brutality, 4 Vendilion clique (I often hit myself to cycle a card) and the less efficient Nahiri allows me to play an essentially much higher curve. I mainboard Nahiri to deal with problematic enchantments and great against creature matchups. Notion thief is insane against UW and some combo matchups, I like him in the main as UW is often a problematic matchup. Thief is also pretty good against combo based decks like storm (and previously KCI) I often think of Thief and Nahiri as Gifts 5-6 in problematic matchups.
2) I been trying several sideboard configurations and I haven't been too pleased with any of them. The most recently one I'm trying is the 2x Peer through depths. I find in combo/ race matchups, i.e. Tron, Scapeshift, Burn, Dredge, Affinity, storm, elves, infect etc is:
1 - I'm losing quite a few matchup since I'm not drawing gifts fast enough to close out the match
2 - My sideboard is stretched to the limit and I cannot have 3 off answers to these hyper linear archetypes
3 - People board in hate like Rest in Peace, counter spells etc. Often I need to find my wear// tear to counter their hate pieces.
I'm trying 2x Peer through depths and moving my sideboard to be 2off answers, i.e. surgical, flames, wear// tear, unmoored ego etc which is similar to what the rest of the meta game is doing and using the depths to dig for either the gifts ungiven to combo out the game or one of the sideboard cards to disrupt (if you have gifts). So far I think its literally insane; Its significantly improved my unfair matchips. (its also a nice card to board in for matchups like Jeskai or transformative sideboard plan of boarding out 4x gifts and boardining in removal in anticipation to hard cast Dragonlord/ Elesh as discussed in 4)
3) I like the Hero's downfall and the dreadbore in the board as answers to Planeswalkers out of control and Phoeonix, shadow etc. The game plan against control is to find a slot to play the worm harvest and to flood the field with tokens or use the dragonlord to steal their planeswalker (less likely, but more likely in a longer drawn out game). I like hero's downfall to hit colonades or planeswalkers to buy them for a setup and its very good against Phoenix and shadow.
4) I usually board out my gifts ungivens against matchups like Spirits, Phoenix and Shadow as I anticipate alot of disruption and I board in my post board removal and transform into more of a grixis control deck that hard casts Dragonlord or Elesh Norn as the finishers
5) Vendilion clique is insane. 80% of the time, I'm cliquing myself to push Iona back into my deck. Having flash flyers in a deck against planeswalkers is invaluable. IF your deck is good at keeping the board on parity with fist full of removal spells, flashing in clique and trading with an attacker in an aggressive matchup is extremely good.
I often find keeping pushing Iona/ Wurm harvest back into your deck is often better than keeping these cards in your graveyard early on; Its often eaten by grave hate.
6) I know what you're all thinking. Wow 2x Silumgar, 2x Notion thief, 4 cliques? What happens if you draw the wrong of your deck? Aren't these essentially deck draws?
Well the whole point of this list is to essentially max out discard/ clique outlets to 17 (4 cliques, 4 brutalities, 4 Cliques, 3 lilian and 2 Nahiri). Essentially your chances of hitting 2 discard outlet are 89% given your 7 card hand + drawing 4 cards in the game. (Nahiri is a clucky discard outlet, this number would be 83% without including her).
Not only are your discard outlets used for push Iona, Elesh back into the deck, its used to help loot other discard outlets if you drawn too many.
Sideboard Stragety:
Against Grixis/ Jeskai Control. (Pure control decks) - These decks are overloaded in disruption, planeswalkers, coloade etc. You want to board out all your fatal pushes, paths (leave 1 Path for colonade), Liliana, Iona and board in 2 Dreadbore, 1 Downfall, 2 Wear // Tear ,2 K command, 2 Peer though depths and anticipate playing a longer game by using clique to ambush walkers and trade one for one and pressure their resources uses Clique + K command + Jace VP loop while threatening to cast gifts end of turn to grab the worm harvest combo.
Against Tron, Burn, Dredge, Affinity, Titan Shift etc. (unfair decks) - Your main strategy is to board in Peer through depths (help find disruption, wear// tear to protect your combo or gifts itself), the relevant disruption, and wear and tear to your combo and essentially become an all in Ad Nauseam combo deck. (against tron, you want to try to setup a scenario where you can ideally ambush a karn liberated and exile their power plant)
Against Jund, Abzan company, Eldrazi etc (midrange decks with some disruption)- You essentially want to be a slower combo- control deck that can win with the combo or as a control deck. You want Nahiri - K command to carry the protecting the combo (no wear // tear). Often I win these matchups 50-60% by just hard casting Silumgar or out valuing with K command if they have too much disruption.
Against Death;s shadow, Phoenix, Infect, Humans etc (faster aggro decks with high disruption) - Your combo isn't that great against them and their post board disruption can be very high with a lot of spell pierces, Surgicals etc. You want to to essential board into a pure combo deck where you board out all 4x gifts ungivens, Iona, Wurm harvest etc and board in your removal spells and anticipate in hard casting your dragonlord or Elesh as a control finisher.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I've been fan of this deck when it was still played with DRS. Since it got banned I turned to other decks, but always came back to this archetype when brewing on paper.
I written down so many lists, but always felt I had to cut too many important cards to stay under at 60 cards. You can play so many good cards, that it would almost feel OK to play 75 main deck and just add more copies of cards you now can play only once or twice. I think this is a big weakness of the deck. It is not streamlined like UWx, which has more alot of 4 offs and aquite lineair gamelan.
I have read a lot of pages and I think with the amount of bolts and even gutshots in the meta, it's not profitable to play Birds. I do think it is very important to play some sort of card selection, since this deck is a control deck, but does not play cantrips like UW does. It's very possible to draw the wrong part of your deck in certain MUs and not have many ways to fix this problem since most of the time you are depending on your topdeck or gifts piles.
I included 3 serum Visions and an Azcanta in the deck to deal with this problem. I do not know if that is sufficient, for example UW already struggles with just 4 opt. (although they lean on miracles so they need the cantrips like that, but in general, when I compare this deck with the old legacy Bug landstill Lists I used to play 10 years back, brainstorm was just so important when playing control. Scry 2 is alot if you think about it and I like to test this.
I do like the idea of Ensnaring Bridge. I do see how this might work with Liliana (it might maybe be better to play 4 when playing bridge though, I hope to get some feedback on this). As a long time lantern player, I know the impact of bridge and like how this can win alot of games. This does mean though that play loam is in the maindeck otherwise a package doesn't work (unless you play something like noxious revival maybe, but I always loved a 1 off loam, so I really want to play this main deck).
This more of an esper thing maybe. But I also really like thopter foundry. I play this combination in my Artifact decks with much succes and the power is not to be underestimated. Since this deck is lacking an actual wincondition (except Jace and maybe Iona beats or even lingering souls beats, although I might be mistaken here. It just feels like the opponent has to deal with 3 different threats to lock you frok an actual wincondition), this might be an interesting addition. The colors are perfect, it's just that sword of the Meek on itself is useless in a deck that does not do anything else with Artifacts. It is a great discard target for liliana and collective brutality though. I would love to discuss this engine as two one-offs in this deck. I haven't seen it in the recent lists and maybe it already proven to be not good, but anyway I'd love to hear more about it. (the life gain may also be relevant when playing fetch-shock-Thoughtseize).
Lastly I am not a great fan of trophy. It is good against certain decks, like Tron. But in general it's a great removal with a very poor drawback, which I don't like in a deck that does not attack the mana base of the opponent full on. I would put 1 or 2 in the sideboard for the MUs in which it is needed, but don't actually feel like playing it maindeck. The only reason for me is including one for a gifts package.
Alright, this is what I cooked up with alot of inspiration of the recent lists here in the group. Again, I haven't tested this particular list but hope to write some more test experiences later on.
Overall I think your list is pretty solid. I'm not certain about the gifts into life from the loan, but I do believe you need a raven's crime added into that package to fully utilize the 3 lands a turn you're getting from loam. (I also think you might want to switch the academy ruins into a ghost quarter as I believe you would require both.)
My other complaint is snapcaster Mage. Gifts really isn't a snapcaster archetype; The deck really doesn't have the necessary number of instants/ sorceries to support snapcaster properly and the card is hit just as bad post board with the grave hate. Snapcaster's 2/1 body really isn't great in this archetype etc.
I personally would recommend using mana dorks inside as gifts lists like your own are essentially expensive lists and turn 3 gifts into turn 4 Unburial or turn 3 Jace are pretty good.
I believe gifts lists are best tuned when they are combo- control, as in they focus more on combo first and control if the first fails.
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Interesting thought about the Snapcaster. Indeed if the opponent boards GY hate, snappy gets pretty downgraded to an ambush viper. Isn't it worth it to be able to play discard, 2 drop, Snapcaster discard again? Or replay your path to exile? The Snapcaster just feels very good against all sorts of aggro decks.
About the mana dorks. Yeah if they stick. They are pretty good. I would prefer birds of Paradise, but it's either birds or serum Visions. You can't ask the deck to make UBG on turn 1. There is the counter argument that serum Visions does not has to be a 1 drop. Serum Visions is also great on turn 3 or 4. Alright back to Bop. With the high amount of Phoenix, burn, and decks playing push, birds becomes the only target for their low to the ground removal.where otherwise these cards are dead. The 2 mana dryad is an all time favorite of mine. I got 4 BaB years back and never traded them away. Still tapping out on turn 2 for a 0/3 do nothing, is alot worse than alot of other turn 2 plays. I don't know what would be best thought, because the Dryad does enable an early gifts and can't be destroyed and is strong against aggro.
Might it be correct to change 2 snappy for 2 dryads? I am also thinking about including 2 mana leak. It's not a a main strategy to counter their stuff, and late game it is most of the time a dead draw, but it feels like it fits in the list. I still do prefer Snapcaster, after going through the options. If you have more arguments to cut the 2 wizards, I'd be very happy to hear you out!
I think Academy Ruins is important when playing Bridge and EE. The package: Ruins, Loam, Bridge/EE, random good land like Tec Edge, is a pretty solid pile. You always get everything. Without. Ruins, you can't do this. Also I feel ravens crime is a sideboard card, maybe I am mistaken. Against alot of decks letting them discard a random card is not worth a card of your own, since your cards are very high in value, going down 1 card is not partivularly in your advantage (except when you do it with Lilly ofcourse).
I hope my train of thought makes sense, and feel free to comment on it
Thanx!
Selene
Ps: I would comment on the dark Jeskai list, if I had any experience with this archetype. So excuse me for passing on this and letting people who are more experienced with the deck comment on it
I basically agree, the list looks rather robust. The only thing that comes to mind regarding the mana base is the lack of a second manland (i.e. Celestial Colonnade) and the inclusion of Darkslick Shores instead of additional fetchlands and possibly a single Temple Garden to grant multiple ways to get each colour if needed, but all of this might be a matter of taste.
So far I liked the inclusion of Ensnaring Bridge and EE together with the Academy/Loam package, it is just in some matchups that Bridge does not do anything, but those are mostly favoured I'd say. Have you seen more lists with this inclusion already? Also, it won me a game against an ambush of Colonnades against UW Control some time ago until I could start grinding with Loam/Tec Edge. This said, adding Raven's Crime in the main has felt quite good in the recent past, I did have it in the board for over a year now but that is a meta call. Sometimes you might want to search up the package game 1 because it just is the best thing to do right now, and even if not, Crime gives another discard outlet for your big dudes or can make use of additional lands drawn later in the game, just to make sure your Rites doesn't get countered for example. At this point I'd also strongly opt for the third LotV, she is key in many situations although she lost some of her impact in the current meta. I was not quite sold on Serum Visions, I would rather cast discard T1 and go from there, trying to answer things that stick to the board with Decay/Trophy (which I found pretty good so far to be honest), but I can see the appeal probably. Same is true for Azcanta, I tried it in a more midrange style list with Thought Scour and Tasigur recently, this is pretty nice as well.
I need to disagree with the point on Snapcaster though, I always felt it is one of the key pieces in fast-paced matches against aggro and incredibly valuable if one can flashback Thoughtseize against control or combo opponents. It also allows for piles that effectively grant 2 removal spells and a blocker which can be key for survival in some situations, heck I've even flashbacked Gifts itself with this guy after bringing him back with Rites against UW which in the end made it possible to grind him down with Loam and manlands. I think 2 is the correct number currently.
Edit: I don't like mana dorks at the moment. BoP gets killed by so many things atm. and with Phoenix around it feels so incredibly bad to have a Gut Shot kill a bird tempo neutral as well. As far as Caryatid are concerned, I tried them several times and always felt a little underwhelmed, I'd rather have interaction available or cast Brutality/more disruption on turn 2. The fact that they ramp from 2-4 mana is relevant as well, T2 LotV isn't possible which was one of the nicest things you could to with DRS (and BoP later on). Regarding maindeck sweepers I opted for only 5 creatures, including 2 Snapcaster Mage, 1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (great for grinding out people if the game goes long) and the two usual guys.
I might as well share with you my latest attempt of coming up with a new iteration of 4C Gifts, this time leaning more heavily on UW than my usual builds and a bit more streamlined, sacrificing a little of the grind potential that came along with e.g. the Loam/Crime engine which is just not suitable for the mana base here. Let's get going:
First things first, the sweeper package isn't set in stone, with an additional Jace these could as well be Terminus, essentially depending on the meta (looking at Phoenix and Dredge, especially). Instead of Lingering Souls I could also see more counters and/or spot removal, I feel this list is a little light on either of the two due to the sheer amount of air in the form of Opt and Growth Spiral. I decided against utility lands so far as I have been experiencing some awkward draws with the usual version running Academy Ruins/Tectonic Edge with 25 lands and no cantrips. There isn't much benefit in either of the two without Loam/Crime and an artifact package, which is missing in this list. Needless to say, I don't think one can consider running Cryptic Command but feel free to try and report of course.
Edit: Slight changes to the list, transition to Terminus in the sweeper package.
I am wondering how easy it is to drop fattys from your hand in the bin without Lilly? I can imagine you have difficulty doing that
I would vote against cryptic.
With another look I think with this high focus on white you might get close to UW control and thus becoming a worse version of that deck. This deck has another strategy than the 4c deck with liliana. I fear it will probably play more like UW but less streamlined.
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Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I think the choice crucially depends on what you want to do. There is no way of casting Big Emmi, whereas Emrakul, the Promised End might be castable with a filled graveyard. The stronger of the two, especially regarding the inclusion of Nahiri, is probably the first one, Annihilator 6 is the key point I think. Do you have an actual list for reference?
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Edit (and to keep the thread going): Now that KCI is banned I might as well bring this up here. I always had a little trouble putting together my sideboard, the usual GY interaction being 3 Surgicals and 1 Extirpate, I also used to bring 3 Stony Silence to the table usually, which is still valid in the face of Hardened Scales probably? What's your take on that, do you play more sweepers (e.g. Flaying Tendrils or the newly spoiled Cry of the Carnarium) or even more GY interaction?
Does anyone want to take a crack at it? I guess you'd probably want to play less sorcery speed cards.
Nevertheless it is worth a try, one can potentially streamline the list a little bit to give it a little tempo boost. I am not sure whether you have seen the list I was running recently, based on this I would make the following suggestion:
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Engineered Explosives
Instant
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
4 Growth Spiral
Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spellskite
1 Extirpate
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Raven's Crime
1 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I used to run 25 lands without dorks and removed a Temple Garden and a Marsh Flats to reduce to 23 lands in this list, which should be fine based on the experiences I have heard of from the Bant Draw-Go Control thread. I also used to run an Ensnaring Bridge in the main artifact package, having another natural synergy with Raven's Crime and Lingering Souls. This makes it possible to stall the board state for a couple of turns such that Gifts can take over. Maybe this isn't necessary anymore due to the gain in tempo. In no circumstance I would cut one of the LotV or the Jace, they have shown to be crucial, especially in grindy matchups. As always, feel free to comment on both main- and sideboard.
Looking forward to what the new cards and meta will bring for gifts!
What is the difference between Cry and Flaying?
Example: arcbound ravager sacrificed two memnites so it wont die to cry/tendrils. Cry would exile memnites, tendrils would not
I see. I don;t think -2/-2 is good enough in this format.
- I find it interesting you have Loam mainboard but no Raven mainboard?
- I feel like your list is lacking sweepers/ removal in your 75 to fight decks like humans
Humans is a tough one indeed (therefore I got 2 Torpor Orbs in the board). But the list plays 9 removal spells + 4 Liliana + Damnation + Engineered Explosives + 2 Snapcaster Mage, that is 17 ways to get rid of stuff. How high would you like to go with your removal slots? Against decks like Infect (or Izzet Fiend if you like) the matchup is incredibly favorable due to the sheer abundance of removal. Then do not forget the 5 discard slots for turn 1, I feel that this is one of the stronger things this deck does, being proactive feels quite good against a number of decks.
To come back to the idea regarding Growth Spiral: I'm not sold on it yet. As mentioned, it does put additional strain on the mana base, which is something we can't really afford as you probably agree. One possibility could be to skip the heavy lean towards B and consequently cut LotV, the early discard and possibly Damnation in favour of a package of counterspells, different sweepers (maybe Terminus in conjunction with more JTMS and Teferi?). Effectively it would be something like UWGb Control with the option of sweet Gifts piles, given the opportunity one can even keep Raven's Crime together with the single Urborg. I have not come as far as putting together a list, but it may be worth a try. What do you think?
Edit: The stock list could eventually replace Tectonic Edge with Bojuka Bog for main GY hate and an additional B source, since Trophy can now take on lands if necessary? Draws including Edge are sometimes a little awkward and B is by far the main colour of my build, another EtB-tapped land sucks though...
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
Creature
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Vendilion Clique
2 Notion Thief
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
4 Collective Brutality
2 Kolaghan's command
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Worm Harvest
1 Unburial Rites
Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nahiri, the harbinger
3 Fulminator mage
2 Kolaghan's command
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Damnation
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Wear // Tear
Going to do a quick tournament report on my Dark Jeskai Gifts deck. (4-1-1), Lost in QuarterFinals
Round 1 (2-0) Black-Red Burn:
- Game 1: I was on the play and kept a hand with Liliana and Gifts Ungiven. I fatal pushed his goblin guide, and Liliana into an empty board and force him to bin multiple burn spells (I top decked 3 non-land spells), eventually hit my 4th land, Gifts into Iona and named Red. This wasn't a game breaker similar to White-Red burn, but he had Bump in the night to bypass Iona naming Red
- Game 2: Similar to game 1, I brutality away his ravenous trap and combo.
(boarded in 2 Kolaghan's command, 2 Wear // Tear, 2 Timely Reinforcements, and 2 Nihil spellbombs - cycle or to prevent his graveyard for hitting a potential bedlam revelar.) Not much in the sideboard for this matchup, the 4 mainboard brutalities were to cover this matchup
Round 2 (2-0) Sun and Moon:
- Game 1: He opened with a Leyline of Sanctity. I had Vendilion Clique, Liliana of the veil, Gifts Ungiven and later drew into my one dragonlord Silumgar. I passed turn 3 with 3 mana open. He played his Nahiri, the harbringer. I flashed in my Vendilion Clique and took a chuck out of her loyalty. Then I played my Liliana of the Veil and started to tick up (discarding my dead fatal pushes). On turn 5, he had 1 card in hand. I draw my land, Liliana both player discard, in response he cast out targeting my liliana. I hard casted my Dragonlord Silumgar and stole his Nahiri and immediately used her -2 to remove the cast out from my Liliana. We went to game 2
- Game 2: Pretty grindy, a lot of back and forth with his sideboard Rest in Peace, Baneslayers, Legion Warboss. Early in the game, he could have had the opportunity to stick an early blood moon and shut down most of my mana base, but he never drew the blood moon. He got into an early aggressive start with Legion Warboss and Simian Spirit Guide. At one point I had to K command, kill the SSG and make myself discard because I couldn't target him because of his leyline, but the early aggression mostly worn off and I over powered him with my Nahiri and Dragonlord Silumgar once the early threat game off
(I'll finish the tournament report later)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I've been fan of this deck when it was still played with DRS. Since it got banned I turned to other decks, but always came back to this archetype when brewing on paper.
I written down so many lists, but always felt I had to cut too many important cards to stay under at 60 cards. You can play so many good cards, that it would almost feel OK to play 75 main deck and just add more copies of cards you now can play only once or twice. I think this is a big weakness of the deck. It is not streamlined like UWx, which has more alot of 4 offs and aquite lineair gamelan.
I have read a lot of pages and I think with the amount of bolts and even gutshots in the meta, it's not profitable to play Birds. I do think it is very important to play some sort of card selection, since this deck is a control deck, but does not play cantrips like UW does. It's very possible to draw the wrong part of your deck in certain MUs and not have many ways to fix this problem since most of the time you are depending on your topdeck or gifts piles.
I included 3 serum Visions and an Azcanta in the deck to deal with this problem. I do not know if that is sufficient, for example UW already struggles with just 4 opt. (although they lean on miracles so they need the cantrips like that, but in general, when I compare this deck with the old legacy Bug landstill Lists I used to play 10 years back, brainstorm was just so important when playing control. Scry 2 is alot if you think about it and I like to test this.
I do like the idea of Ensnaring Bridge. I do see how this might work with Liliana (it might maybe be better to play 4 when playing bridge though, I hope to get some feedback on this). As a long time lantern player, I know the impact of bridge and like how this can win alot of games. This does mean though that play loam is in the maindeck otherwise a package doesn't work (unless you play something like noxious revival maybe, but I always loved a 1 off loam, so I really want to play this main deck).
This more of an esper thing maybe. But I also really like thopter foundry. I play this combination in my Artifact decks with much succes and the power is not to be underestimated. Since this deck is lacking an actual wincondition (except Jace and maybe Iona beats or even lingering souls beats, although I might be mistaken here. It just feels like the opponent has to deal with 3 different threats to lock you frok an actual wincondition), this might be an interesting addition. The colors are perfect, it's just that sword of the Meek on itself is useless in a deck that does not do anything else with Artifacts. It is a great discard target for liliana and collective brutality though. I would love to discuss this engine as two one-offs in this deck. I haven't seen it in the recent lists and maybe it already proven to be not good, but anyway I'd love to hear more about it. (the life gain may also be relevant when playing fetch-shock-Thoughtseize).
Lastly I am not a great fan of trophy. It is good against certain decks, like Tron. But in general it's a great removal with a very poor drawback, which I don't like in a deck that does not attack the mana base of the opponent full on. I would put 1 or 2 in the sideboard for the MUs in which it is needed, but don't actually feel like playing it maindeck. The only reason for me is including one for a gifts package.
Alright, this is what I cooked up with alot of inspiration of the recent lists here in the group. Again, I haven't tested this particular list but hope to write some more test experiences later on.
Cheers Selene
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 polluted Delta
2 marsh Flats
2 Verdant catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Academy Ruins
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Instant
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
3 Serum Visions
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantment
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
Creature
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Vendilion Clique
2 Notion Thief
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
4 Collective Brutality
2 Kolaghan's command
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Worm Harvest
1 Unburial Rites
Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nahiri, the harbinger
2 Unmoored ego
2 Kolaghan's command
2 Radiant Flames
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Dreadbore
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Peer through depths
1) I been very happy with my 60 card main. As I explained in an earlier post, having nearly 17 discard outlets in the form of 4 Jace VP, 3 Liliana of the Veil, 4 Collective brutality, 4 Vendilion clique (I often hit myself to cycle a card) and the less efficient Nahiri allows me to play an essentially much higher curve. I mainboard Nahiri to deal with problematic enchantments and great against creature matchups. Notion thief is insane against UW and some combo matchups, I like him in the main as UW is often a problematic matchup. Thief is also pretty good against combo based decks like storm (and previously KCI) I often think of Thief and Nahiri as Gifts 5-6 in problematic matchups.
2) I been trying several sideboard configurations and I haven't been too pleased with any of them. The most recently one I'm trying is the 2x Peer through depths. I find in combo/ race matchups, i.e. Tron, Scapeshift, Burn, Dredge, Affinity, storm, elves, infect etc is:
1 - I'm losing quite a few matchup since I'm not drawing gifts fast enough to close out the match
2 - My sideboard is stretched to the limit and I cannot have 3 off answers to these hyper linear archetypes
3 - People board in hate like Rest in Peace, counter spells etc. Often I need to find my wear// tear to counter their hate pieces.
I'm trying 2x Peer through depths and moving my sideboard to be 2off answers, i.e. surgical, flames, wear// tear, unmoored ego etc which is similar to what the rest of the meta game is doing and using the depths to dig for either the gifts ungiven to combo out the game or one of the sideboard cards to disrupt (if you have gifts). So far I think its literally insane; Its significantly improved my unfair matchips. (its also a nice card to board in for matchups like Jeskai or transformative sideboard plan of boarding out 4x gifts and boardining in removal in anticipation to hard cast Dragonlord/ Elesh as discussed in 4)
3) I like the Hero's downfall and the dreadbore in the board as answers to Planeswalkers out of control and Phoeonix, shadow etc. The game plan against control is to find a slot to play the worm harvest and to flood the field with tokens or use the dragonlord to steal their planeswalker (less likely, but more likely in a longer drawn out game). I like hero's downfall to hit colonades or planeswalkers to buy them for a setup and its very good against Phoenix and shadow.
4) I usually board out my gifts ungivens against matchups like Spirits, Phoenix and Shadow as I anticipate alot of disruption and I board in my post board removal and transform into more of a grixis control deck that hard casts Dragonlord or Elesh Norn as the finishers
5) Vendilion clique is insane. 80% of the time, I'm cliquing myself to push Iona back into my deck. Having flash flyers in a deck against planeswalkers is invaluable. IF your deck is good at keeping the board on parity with fist full of removal spells, flashing in clique and trading with an attacker in an aggressive matchup is extremely good.
I often find keeping pushing Iona/ Wurm harvest back into your deck is often better than keeping these cards in your graveyard early on; Its often eaten by grave hate.
6) I know what you're all thinking. Wow 2x Silumgar, 2x Notion thief, 4 cliques? What happens if you draw the wrong of your deck? Aren't these essentially deck draws?
Well the whole point of this list is to essentially max out discard/ clique outlets to 17 (4 cliques, 4 brutalities, 4 Cliques, 3 lilian and 2 Nahiri). Essentially your chances of hitting 2 discard outlet are 89% given your 7 card hand + drawing 4 cards in the game. (Nahiri is a clucky discard outlet, this number would be 83% without including her).
Not only are your discard outlets used for push Iona, Elesh back into the deck, its used to help loot other discard outlets if you drawn too many.
Sideboard Stragety:
Against Grixis/ Jeskai Control. (Pure control decks) - These decks are overloaded in disruption, planeswalkers, coloade etc. You want to board out all your fatal pushes, paths (leave 1 Path for colonade), Liliana, Iona and board in 2 Dreadbore, 1 Downfall, 2 Wear // Tear ,2 K command, 2 Peer though depths and anticipate playing a longer game by using clique to ambush walkers and trade one for one and pressure their resources uses Clique + K command + Jace VP loop while threatening to cast gifts end of turn to grab the worm harvest combo.
Against Tron, Burn, Dredge, Affinity, Titan Shift etc. (unfair decks) - Your main strategy is to board in Peer through depths (help find disruption, wear// tear to protect your combo or gifts itself), the relevant disruption, and wear and tear to your combo and essentially become an all in Ad Nauseam combo deck. (against tron, you want to try to setup a scenario where you can ideally ambush a karn liberated and exile their power plant)
Against Jund, Abzan company, Eldrazi etc (midrange decks with some disruption)- You essentially want to be a slower combo- control deck that can win with the combo or as a control deck. You want Nahiri - K command to carry the protecting the combo (no wear // tear). Often I win these matchups 50-60% by just hard casting Silumgar or out valuing with K command if they have too much disruption.
Against Death;s shadow, Phoenix, Infect, Humans etc (faster aggro decks with high disruption) - Your combo isn't that great against them and their post board disruption can be very high with a lot of spell pierces, Surgicals etc. You want to to essential board into a pure combo deck where you board out all 4x gifts ungivens, Iona, Wurm harvest etc and board in your removal spells and anticipate in hard casting your dragonlord or Elesh as a control finisher.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Overall I think your list is pretty solid. I'm not certain about the gifts into life from the loan, but I do believe you need a raven's crime added into that package to fully utilize the 3 lands a turn you're getting from loam. (I also think you might want to switch the academy ruins into a ghost quarter as I believe you would require both.)
My other complaint is snapcaster Mage. Gifts really isn't a snapcaster archetype; The deck really doesn't have the necessary number of instants/ sorceries to support snapcaster properly and the card is hit just as bad post board with the grave hate. Snapcaster's 2/1 body really isn't great in this archetype etc.
I personally would recommend using mana dorks inside as gifts lists like your own are essentially expensive lists and turn 3 gifts into turn 4 Unburial or turn 3 Jace are pretty good.
I believe gifts lists are best tuned when they are combo- control, as in they focus more on combo first and control if the first fails.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
About the mana dorks. Yeah if they stick. They are pretty good. I would prefer birds of Paradise, but it's either birds or serum Visions. You can't ask the deck to make UBG on turn 1. There is the counter argument that serum Visions does not has to be a 1 drop. Serum Visions is also great on turn 3 or 4. Alright back to Bop. With the high amount of Phoenix, burn, and decks playing push, birds becomes the only target for their low to the ground removal.where otherwise these cards are dead. The 2 mana dryad is an all time favorite of mine. I got 4 BaB years back and never traded them away. Still tapping out on turn 2 for a 0/3 do nothing, is alot worse than alot of other turn 2 plays. I don't know what would be best thought, because the Dryad does enable an early gifts and can't be destroyed and is strong against aggro.
Might it be correct to change 2 snappy for 2 dryads? I am also thinking about including 2 mana leak. It's not a a main strategy to counter their stuff, and late game it is most of the time a dead draw, but it feels like it fits in the list. I still do prefer Snapcaster, after going through the options. If you have more arguments to cut the 2 wizards, I'd be very happy to hear you out!
I think Academy Ruins is important when playing Bridge and EE. The package: Ruins, Loam, Bridge/EE, random good land like Tec Edge, is a pretty solid pile. You always get everything. Without. Ruins, you can't do this. Also I feel ravens crime is a sideboard card, maybe I am mistaken. Against alot of decks letting them discard a random card is not worth a card of your own, since your cards are very high in value, going down 1 card is not partivularly in your advantage (except when you do it with Lilly ofcourse).
I hope my train of thought makes sense, and feel free to comment on it
Thanx!
Selene
Ps: I would comment on the dark Jeskai list, if I had any experience with this archetype. So excuse me for passing on this and letting people who are more experienced with the deck comment on it
So far I liked the inclusion of Ensnaring Bridge and EE together with the Academy/Loam package, it is just in some matchups that Bridge does not do anything, but those are mostly favoured I'd say. Have you seen more lists with this inclusion already? Also, it won me a game against an ambush of Colonnades against UW Control some time ago until I could start grinding with Loam/Tec Edge. This said, adding Raven's Crime in the main has felt quite good in the recent past, I did have it in the board for over a year now but that is a meta call. Sometimes you might want to search up the package game 1 because it just is the best thing to do right now, and even if not, Crime gives another discard outlet for your big dudes or can make use of additional lands drawn later in the game, just to make sure your Rites doesn't get countered for example. At this point I'd also strongly opt for the third LotV, she is key in many situations although she lost some of her impact in the current meta. I was not quite sold on Serum Visions, I would rather cast discard T1 and go from there, trying to answer things that stick to the board with Decay/Trophy (which I found pretty good so far to be honest), but I can see the appeal probably. Same is true for Azcanta, I tried it in a more midrange style list with Thought Scour and Tasigur recently, this is pretty nice as well.
I need to disagree with the point on Snapcaster though, I always felt it is one of the key pieces in fast-paced matches against aggro and incredibly valuable if one can flashback Thoughtseize against control or combo opponents. It also allows for piles that effectively grant 2 removal spells and a blocker which can be key for survival in some situations, heck I've even flashbacked Gifts itself with this guy after bringing him back with Rites against UW which in the end made it possible to grind him down with Loam and manlands. I think 2 is the correct number currently.
Edit: I don't like mana dorks at the moment. BoP gets killed by so many things atm. and with Phoenix around it feels so incredibly bad to have a Gut Shot kill a bird tempo neutral as well. As far as Caryatid are concerned, I tried them several times and always felt a little underwhelmed, I'd rather have interaction available or cast Brutality/more disruption on turn 2. The fact that they ramp from 2-4 mana is relevant as well, T2 LotV isn't possible which was one of the nicest things you could to with DRS (and BoP later on). Regarding maindeck sweepers I opted for only 5 creatures, including 2 Snapcaster Mage, 1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (great for grinding out people if the game goes long) and the two usual guys.
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Thragtusk
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Gifts Ungiven
2 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
3 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse of Murasa
3 Opt
1 Assassin's Trophy
4 Growth Spiral
1 Radical Idea
Sorcery
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
4 Terminus
Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Damping Sphere
2 Celestial Purge
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Wrath of God
2 Timely Reinforcements
First things first, the sweeper package isn't set in stone, with an additional Jace these could as well be Terminus, essentially depending on the meta (looking at Phoenix and Dredge, especially). Instead of Lingering Souls I could also see more counters and/or spot removal, I feel this list is a little light on either of the two due to the sheer amount of air in the form of Opt and Growth Spiral. I decided against utility lands so far as I have been experiencing some awkward draws with the usual version running Academy Ruins/Tectonic Edge with 25 lands and no cantrips. There isn't much benefit in either of the two without Loam/Crime and an artifact package, which is missing in this list. Needless to say, I don't think one can consider running Cryptic Command but feel free to try and report of course.
Edit: Slight changes to the list, transition to Terminus in the sweeper package.
I would vote against cryptic.
With another look I think with this high focus on white you might get close to UW control and thus becoming a worse version of that deck. This deck has another strategy than the 4c deck with liliana. I fear it will probably play more like UW but less streamlined.