My LGS is at that point in the cycle where nobody's running the white enchantments, but there's a bunch of blue moon and Grixis players, so I wanted to bump up the Ruins. It also just works as extra wellsprings when going off, so it's never a dead card.
Just FYI I've been on 3x inventors fair since the beginning haha.
I'll have a go with spellbombs.
For a while i have been running one in the maindeck anyway (alongside a slim emrakul package) and the card has been fairly useful i admit. But i always got the feeling that if I was ever to go all-in on bomb I'd probably need to go up to 3x myr retrievers and drop the emrakul package altogether.
Also despite having played this deck for over a year I think I've been a bit intimidated by building a version that can't really win without cleanly going off. So many games in the last 18 months have been awkward, semi-combo affairs where I just manage to get there and I've been impressed by the deck's ability to be resilient and powerful through multiple lines of hate, but spellbomb was a weak link there. The more well known the deck becomes, the less good a "just spellbomb" plan seems to me. But perhaps I'm fundamentally misunderstanding something here and I fully accept that I probably just need to suck it up and give a 'Nass' list a go for myself. I've got the pieces.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Just had another good tournament with the whir build, sounds like most people here are on the nass build but thought I'd share it anyway
Got t4 at scg regionals and we chopped the cash so I scooped to a buddy that was playing jeskai since I didn't really care about the trophy/points and felt like he'd have a better chance at beating humans in the final than I did anyway
Rd 1: RB control/midrange 2-0
Not sure what he was doing, it was discard, relics, and removal. Nothing against my opp but the matchup felt like a bye, relics were a little annoying but he only had 1 g1 and g2 so it wasn't hard to make him pop it early without exposing too much of the combo
Rd 2: Affinity 2-1
I think this match is pretty tough but 1 change I mad was the 4th lingering souls for 1 grid, g3 I sat behind the grid + bridge and just murdered all of his things slowly until I got the combo together. Aff I'm still trying to decide exactly what the matchup is about, in general we are going to be slower than a good affinity playe that knows to for a fast infect kill so I think we're actually a control deck here, especially after loading up on sb.
Rd 3: GW 2-1
Usually this matchup is also really hard as they have a variety of sb cards that are very relevant between kataki, eidolon, stony, surgical, and dunno what big creatures they can Eldritch evo out. Winning g1 vs them is incredibly important because they are able to improve so much post board that we need that margin heading into post board games.
Rd 4: Dredge 2-0
Really easy match for my build, I have tons of relevant interaction with them while also being at least 1 turn faster
Rd 5: Humans 0-2
G1 I kill thalia but he vials in another one before I get a chance to combo and I fell to double champ hand, was pretty embarrassing since he was on a mull to 5 but they were highly relevant 5 cards obviously. G2 pretty similar, he katakis me on t2 but I kill it with spellbomb on my upkeep, rebuild stuff since I was anticipating it but then his t3 he drops thalia and I can't handle killing both.
Rd 6: Humans 2-1
Beat him g1 since he didn't have thalia, lost g2 due to thalia, won g3 because he didn't have thalia again. Hate to be so reductionist but really that's the take away. Thalia is extremely important in the match and it's important we identify that as a priority.
Rd 7: UR Moon 2-0
Thought he was on breach so was playing pretty defensively g1 but heading into g2 I got the impression he wasn't at all since he was pretty nonchalant about bridge so I just went balls out g2. Overall pretty easy match, was just patient until I had a window both games.
Rd 8: Mardu 2-0
Felt bad since it was a good buddy but honestly the matchup is pretty much a bye, I think I'm like 11-0 vs mardu pyro in competitive tournaments now
Rd 9: ID - Huge shout out to the guy who ID me, he was one of the many humans players in the t8 so not sure his name but I was actually given a game loss due to deck reg error and he still ID'd with me after. Not sure everyone would do this, especially with a complete stranger, but I really appreciated it.
Quarters: Humans 2-1
Same guy I lost to in the swiss, g1 he only had 1 thalia this time though so I was able to kill it and combo the subsequent turn. g2 I get run over by multiple sb cards. G3 he kept a bit of a stinker, goes hiearch into t2 play 2 vials, it lined up well since I jammed bmoon on t3 but fortunately I popped an ee on 1 t4 and he didn't cast another spell.
Semis: Jeskai - scooped to him
Like I mentioned, he was a good buddy that I felt would have a better chance in the finals since the other match was a humans mirror, we already chopped the cash and I didn't care about the trophy. I think we have a great jeskai matchup though so felt pretty confident if we did end up playing but hard to say, kci's power is mostly from an opp's unfamiliarity.
List felt really good, considering cutting lingering souls for torper orbs going forward, I'm just not seeing many h1/shadow decks anymore so thinking they might be unnecessary if the meta keeps moving towards more and more humans
have you thought about using replicator yet? he is a freaking house. Grats on the finish
No, it's same as resevoir/banefire/emrakul/etc... they're all win more cards that don't help when you're behind, they're completely dead/uncastable without a kci and if you already have a kci in play you win regardless
There's way too many suggestions for cards like this. I'm happy concede you need one of the above 3 if you play online but in paper there's no reason for the training wheels
I've adopted 2 The Antiquities War over wurmcoil, which has made the grid feel much more narrow because I no longer bring it in versus Jeskai. Instead I've been experimenting those slots with pyroclasm and torpor orb as cards that might be more impactful in certain matchups. Orb hoses humans, but is very narrow. Pyroclasm is great versus Humans, elves, affinity and pyromancer, but i'm not sure if its better than grid or not. Thoughts?
Think you still need both Wurmcoil and Aether Grid, just GBlast by itself isn't enough in those matchups.
I've been thinking about the board and Defense Grid seems like the weakest link right now. Guttural is a good gotcha to keep around for the blue instants, and the matchups where you want Defense Grid often you'll board in one of the enchantments anyway (normally Antiquities War), so I ended up cutting the Defense Grids, keeping Aether Grids and Wurmcoils, and still slotting in Antiquities War.
Humans/Mardu you just have to lean on GBlast + Grid + EE. I tried Orb before but it was just cute and didn't do much.
Have been running into some pretty combo-heavy weeks so Damping Spheres in SB has been great. Good vs. Amulet, Storm, opposing KCI, and splash damage against Tron to turn your 80-20 into a 90-10.
Looks like Zac Elsic just got 2nd in the SCG invitational running Matt Nass list. My own experience with the deck so far has been pretty good. I would love to play it this week in Vegas but just dont have enough reps, and I have a feeling that more artifact hate will be on the way, as its seems like affinity is back on the uptick as well. So i'll be sticking with Titanshift due to familiarity, but man KCI is a blast, and some of the most fun I've had slinging magic cards.
I just received a playset of whir of invention through the mail.
I realise the whir builds of this deck may have fallen by the wayside since matt nass got a good finish, but anyone able to offer an experience-based comparison or gut feeling on whether the whir variant is still worth trying?
(I picked them up to build a thopter-sword deck but it occurred to me that I might want to try it here as well)
I imagine it's worth playing 1x ensnaring bridge in a whir build. Seems like a no brainer.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
The Whir build felt more disruptable. Unlike Whir in Lantern, where you're bringing in an answer every cast, in KCI, you're bringing in a combo piece. Ironically, Whir would be better if the piece went into your hand. Also, UUU is less useful for this deck than some Darksteels. Maybe build Tezzerator with them? (unless that's what you mean by Thopter-Sword)
I love bauble, it's a really versatile card:
1. Great vs discard, you sandandbag cards in hand until you have the sufficient 4 mana to go off and expose as few resources to inq/seize
2. Interaction between trawler and stars vs mardu/gbx/other interactive decks, it resultsin just grinding them out of cards
3. Mid combo if you know hitting a land/non land is all you need to go off you can see your next card
4. Whir builds are obviously a lot more interactive than nass build, knowing when to "go for it" or when to whir defensively takes a lot of finesse and it's why whir is far better but far harder to play, bauble can give us clues about the opp hand to make better decisions
5. Enables t1 mod opal more often
I see a lot of people run 3 whir, even somein my testing group. I think it's very wrong, the card is absolutely insane and I think if you died due to 2 whir in hand it's because of the other 56 cards or a decision the pilot made
@thursdayisgod I’m glad you’re having success with whir, it is a great card. However saying whir builds are “far better” is a bit subjective. With mainboard bullets of course it’s more interactive, but at the cost of consistency and resilience. I think you want to focus on the combo mainboard instead of being reactive. Without mind stone your chances of T3 kill drop quite a bit, and buried ruin and inventors fair have closed so many games. It is also relevant that when you are cracking eggs you have to guess whether to add green or blue. A small number of games will punish you for guessing wrong.
I think it’s still too soon to claim there is a definitive list, so we need people to test all the options. It may turn out that a reactionary build that doesn’t jam for the combo is what we want, But I don’t think we are there yet.
A side note, it seems like people assume any list not running whir is a Matt Nass build. While Nass did a lot for the deck, his main innovation is grove of the burnwillows, streamlining the sideboard to Green and Red with galvanic blast and guttural response. The rest of the shell has been around almost since trawler was released. I think that a “Nass Build” implies sticking to R/G list. I’m not trying to downplay Matt Nass’ success, he has done a lot for the deck, but just wanted to point out that there are more than just “whir builds” and “Nass builds”
A side note, it seems like people assume any list not running whir is a Matt Nass build. While Nass did a lot for the deck, his main innovation is grove of the burnwillows, streamlining the sideboard to Green and Red with galvanic blast and guttural response. The rest of the shell has been around almost since trawler was released. I think that a “Nass Build” implies sticking to R/G list. I’m not trying to downplay Matt Nass’ success, he has done a lot for the deck, but just wanted to point out that there are more than just “whir builds” and “Nass builds”
I was using it as shorthand. My take on Nass' innovation was his inclusion of buried ruin, and taking the deck away from the sanctum/hangarback engine towards a more combo-y affair with spellbomb. Before he got success with that build, I genuinely hadn't seen anyone running a list quite like it. Similar, sure, but until recently most people were on the emrakul plan. When I say a "Nass build" I'm referring to a list which wins by recurring spellbomb and utilises buried ruin fairly heavily. Most of the rest of the deck is fairly universal, and i saw and played with Grove since the deck first flew onto the scene with scrap trawler. I can't recall anyone citing Nass as a reason for running Grove more than a year ago when the deck started to gain traction on the fringes of modern, or when it finished at the top tables of a team-GP (can't confirm but pretty sure that list ran Grove too)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I personally hadn’t seen any lists with grove prior to Matt Nass, but buried ruin has been seen here and there since before the emrakul/sanctum builds. Nass definitely showcased its power by going up to 3 copies. As for pyrite spellbomb, that has been my wincon since the faiths reward version of eggs. The sanctum/emrakul lists got popular for a bit but pyrite builds were around before then. It isn’t really relevant who played what first, I guess I was just unsure what people are referring to by “Nass Build”. To me the unique elements are a RG mana base, galvanic blast and guttural response in the side, and running extra utility lands.
I'm not sure why people feel the RG build has a consistency or speed advantage, it plays less 0s and the fizzle rate is really high since you don't have an instant win button in whir that you're drawing to. Every time I've played it, it felt a lot like the recent CFB videos, you start churning the wheels, fizzle, and risk getting completely blown out as yo pass. The only advantage I can see is Mindstone so I tried out a couple in the whir build, they were OK since it enabled turn 3 a little easier but they were so bad to draw mid-combo.
I fail to see exactly why RG is preferred other than it's simplicity?
Edit:
Also the nomenclature attributes it to Nass due to his success ofc
I'll have a go with spellbombs.
For a while i have been running one in the maindeck anyway (alongside a slim emrakul package) and the card has been fairly useful i admit. But i always got the feeling that if I was ever to go all-in on bomb I'd probably need to go up to 3x myr retrievers and drop the emrakul package altogether.
Also despite having played this deck for over a year I think I've been a bit intimidated by building a version that can't really win without cleanly going off. So many games in the last 18 months have been awkward, semi-combo affairs where I just manage to get there and I've been impressed by the deck's ability to be resilient and powerful through multiple lines of hate, but spellbomb was a weak link there. The more well known the deck becomes, the less good a "just spellbomb" plan seems to me. But perhaps I'm fundamentally misunderstanding something here and I fully accept that I probably just need to suck it up and give a 'Nass' list a go for myself. I've got the pieces.
Got t4 at scg regionals and we chopped the cash so I scooped to a buddy that was playing jeskai since I didn't really care about the trophy/points and felt like he'd have a better chance at beating humans in the final than I did anyway
My list was the same that I played here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1027791#paper
Rd 1: RB control/midrange 2-0
Not sure what he was doing, it was discard, relics, and removal. Nothing against my opp but the matchup felt like a bye, relics were a little annoying but he only had 1 g1 and g2 so it wasn't hard to make him pop it early without exposing too much of the combo
Rd 2: Affinity 2-1
I think this match is pretty tough but 1 change I mad was the 4th lingering souls for 1 grid, g3 I sat behind the grid + bridge and just murdered all of his things slowly until I got the combo together. Aff I'm still trying to decide exactly what the matchup is about, in general we are going to be slower than a good affinity playe that knows to for a fast infect kill so I think we're actually a control deck here, especially after loading up on sb.
Rd 3: GW 2-1
Usually this matchup is also really hard as they have a variety of sb cards that are very relevant between kataki, eidolon, stony, surgical, and dunno what big creatures they can Eldritch evo out. Winning g1 vs them is incredibly important because they are able to improve so much post board that we need that margin heading into post board games.
Rd 4: Dredge 2-0
Really easy match for my build, I have tons of relevant interaction with them while also being at least 1 turn faster
Rd 5: Humans 0-2
G1 I kill thalia but he vials in another one before I get a chance to combo and I fell to double champ hand, was pretty embarrassing since he was on a mull to 5 but they were highly relevant 5 cards obviously. G2 pretty similar, he katakis me on t2 but I kill it with spellbomb on my upkeep, rebuild stuff since I was anticipating it but then his t3 he drops thalia and I can't handle killing both.
Rd 6: Humans 2-1
Beat him g1 since he didn't have thalia, lost g2 due to thalia, won g3 because he didn't have thalia again. Hate to be so reductionist but really that's the take away. Thalia is extremely important in the match and it's important we identify that as a priority.
Rd 7: UR Moon 2-0
Thought he was on breach so was playing pretty defensively g1 but heading into g2 I got the impression he wasn't at all since he was pretty nonchalant about bridge so I just went balls out g2. Overall pretty easy match, was just patient until I had a window both games.
Rd 8: Mardu 2-0
Felt bad since it was a good buddy but honestly the matchup is pretty much a bye, I think I'm like 11-0 vs mardu pyro in competitive tournaments now
Rd 9: ID - Huge shout out to the guy who ID me, he was one of the many humans players in the t8 so not sure his name but I was actually given a game loss due to deck reg error and he still ID'd with me after. Not sure everyone would do this, especially with a complete stranger, but I really appreciated it.
Quarters: Humans 2-1
Same guy I lost to in the swiss, g1 he only had 1 thalia this time though so I was able to kill it and combo the subsequent turn. g2 I get run over by multiple sb cards. G3 he kept a bit of a stinker, goes hiearch into t2 play 2 vials, it lined up well since I jammed bmoon on t3 but fortunately I popped an ee on 1 t4 and he didn't cast another spell.
Semis: Jeskai - scooped to him
Like I mentioned, he was a good buddy that I felt would have a better chance in the finals since the other match was a humans mirror, we already chopped the cash and I didn't care about the trophy. I think we have a great jeskai matchup though so felt pretty confident if we did end up playing but hard to say, kci's power is mostly from an opp's unfamiliarity.
List felt really good, considering cutting lingering souls for torper orbs going forward, I'm just not seeing many h1/shadow decks anymore so thinking they might be unnecessary if the meta keeps moving towards more and more humans
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
No, it's same as resevoir/banefire/emrakul/etc... they're all win more cards that don't help when you're behind, they're completely dead/uncastable without a kci and if you already have a kci in play you win regardless
There's way too many suggestions for cards like this. I'm happy concede you need one of the above 3 if you play online but in paper there's no reason for the training wheels
I've been thinking about the board and Defense Grid seems like the weakest link right now. Guttural is a good gotcha to keep around for the blue instants, and the matchups where you want Defense Grid often you'll board in one of the enchantments anyway (normally Antiquities War), so I ended up cutting the Defense Grids, keeping Aether Grids and Wurmcoils, and still slotting in Antiquities War.
Humans/Mardu you just have to lean on GBlast + Grid + EE. I tried Orb before but it was just cute and didn't do much.
Have been running into some pretty combo-heavy weeks so Damping Spheres in SB has been great. Good vs. Amulet, Storm, opposing KCI, and splash damage against Tron to turn your 80-20 into a 90-10.
I'm taking the Nass version to Vegas, trying to narrow down a sideboard plan.
Currently I'm here:
4 Galv Blast
4 Natures Claim
2 Wurmcoil
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Antiquities War
Looking at some current sideboards and seeing things like pyroclasm,Abrupt Decay, Grafdigger's Cage... you gents have any suggestions?
I realise the whir builds of this deck may have fallen by the wayside since matt nass got a good finish, but anyone able to offer an experience-based comparison or gut feeling on whether the whir variant is still worth trying?
(I picked them up to build a thopter-sword deck but it occurred to me that I might want to try it here as well)
I imagine it's worth playing 1x ensnaring bridge in a whir build. Seems like a no brainer.
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
I love bauble, it's a really versatile card:
1. Great vs discard, you sandandbag cards in hand until you have the sufficient 4 mana to go off and expose as few resources to inq/seize
2. Interaction between trawler and stars vs mardu/gbx/other interactive decks, it resultsin just grinding them out of cards
3. Mid combo if you know hitting a land/non land is all you need to go off you can see your next card
4. Whir builds are obviously a lot more interactive than nass build, knowing when to "go for it" or when to whir defensively takes a lot of finesse and it's why whir is far better but far harder to play, bauble can give us clues about the opp hand to make better decisions
5. Enables t1 mod opal more often
I see a lot of people run 3 whir, even somein my testing group. I think it's very wrong, the card is absolutely insane and I think if you died due to 2 whir in hand it's because of the other 56 cards or a decision the pilot made
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
I think it’s still too soon to claim there is a definitive list, so we need people to test all the options. It may turn out that a reactionary build that doesn’t jam for the combo is what we want, But I don’t think we are there yet.
I was using it as shorthand. My take on Nass' innovation was his inclusion of buried ruin, and taking the deck away from the sanctum/hangarback engine towards a more combo-y affair with spellbomb. Before he got success with that build, I genuinely hadn't seen anyone running a list quite like it. Similar, sure, but until recently most people were on the emrakul plan. When I say a "Nass build" I'm referring to a list which wins by recurring spellbomb and utilises buried ruin fairly heavily. Most of the rest of the deck is fairly universal, and i saw and played with Grove since the deck first flew onto the scene with scrap trawler. I can't recall anyone citing Nass as a reason for running Grove more than a year ago when the deck started to gain traction on the fringes of modern, or when it finished at the top tables of a team-GP (can't confirm but pretty sure that list ran Grove too)
I'm not sure why people feel the RG build has a consistency or speed advantage, it plays less 0s and the fizzle rate is really high since you don't have an instant win button in whir that you're drawing to. Every time I've played it, it felt a lot like the recent CFB videos, you start churning the wheels, fizzle, and risk getting completely blown out as yo pass. The only advantage I can see is Mindstone so I tried out a couple in the whir build, they were OK since it enabled turn 3 a little easier but they were so bad to draw mid-combo.
I fail to see exactly why RG is preferred other than it's simplicity?
Edit:
Also the nomenclature attributes it to Nass due to his success ofc
Technically kanister ran groves first: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/614490#paper