Guys i am having a bit of a quandry. I have seen it both ways and tested both ways. I wasn't dissapointed with either way. I cant decide if chalice should be main or side. Its hoses some decks but is worthless against others (although the same could be said about many cards). What are your guys feelings? Also I want to run a third mindstone so bad but I feel like a basilisk collar may be better
@thebullwark
I've been running my chalice in the side as I feel it really only shines in certain matchups. I think the deck wants to be an aggro deck first so I opted to not dilute the main board with chalice and instead always go straight for the fast kill G1.
In fact, in my last 2 events over the course of 12 rounds, I think I only sided chalice in once against an 8 rack player. I'd love to hear more I put from others too.
It depends entirely on your meta. You can look at each deck and see how effective Chalice is against it. If you expect to play against a majority of decks that Chalice is good against, then play them in the main. If you don't, leave them in the side. Pretty simple.
It depends entirely on your meta. You can look at each deck and see how effective Chalice is against it. If you expect to play against a majority of decks that Chalice is good against, then play them in the main. If you don't, leave them in the side. Pretty simple.
Im sorry to say I think this binary meta response is pretty lazy. I play large events where I don't inherently know the field. Im asking about chalice in general. If your answer is, look at your meta its simple, please don't respond. Not all of us play only little casual tournaments at our lgs.
I think you go with the Chalice Main build, essentially because ET is weak to non-creature combo and Burn, often even with Chalice, but much worse without it, but we are pretty strong against other fair decks even if we have Chalice in. Therefore, shore up Game 1 against combo and burn in order to have a better chance of only having to win one post-board game, instead of adding a few percentage points onto the fair games in order to give up a larger percentage of Game 1 to Combo, when we will still have a hard time Games 2/3.
Addendum:
Chalice is good against the following common fair non-Burn decks anyway:
Grixis and Esper Death's Shadow (on 1)
Affinity (on 0 then on 2)
UW Control (blanks a lot of removal and draw)
GR Tron (on 1)
It is weak to outright terrible against:
Abzan (not super bad on 1)
Bant Eldrazi (not super bad on 1)
Bant Spirits
Merfolk
BW Eldrazi and Taxes
It is also quite bad against creature combo except Elves (provided they do not hit Cavern of Souls in their first couple of turns.)
It depends entirely on your meta. You can look at each deck and see how effective Chalice is against it. If you expect to play against a majority of decks that Chalice is good against, then play them in the main. If you don't, leave them in the side. Pretty simple.
Im sorry to say I think this binary meta response is pretty lazy. I play large events where I don't inherently know the field. Im asking about chalice in general. If your answer is, look at your meta its simple, please don't respond. Not all of us play only little casual tournaments at our lgs.
Hmm, is telling me not to respond and calling my response lazy really necessary? Think about it - the same logic applies to large tournaments as well. You need to make an assessment about the meta in any tournament before you enter, no matter how large or small and make deckbuilding decisions based on that. If you don't inherently know the field, you need to think about it and decide what you think is most likely. What else can you do? Chalice has tons of impact in some matchups and next to none or none in others, which is why making a meta call is the most important factor in deciding whether or not to play it main.
I agree with redtwister - Chalice in the main seems strongest right now with the likes of Affinity, Burn, Death's Shadow, and Storm being prominent.
Now... let me ask a question, since I'm here. Do folks prefer Karn Liberated or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger? I've been running Karn, and I've been a tad underwhelmed by him. The fact that he doesn't get the Eldrazi Temple boost is kind of a bummer, and he doesn't hit on T3 very often in my experience anyway. I'd like to hear some opinions before I test Ulamog, though.
I agree with redtwister - Chalice in the main seems strongest right now with the likes of Affinity, Burn, Death's Shadow, and Storm being prominent.
Now... let me ask a question, since I'm here. Do folks prefer Karn Liberated or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger? I've been running Karn, and I've been a tad underwhelmed by him. The fact that he doesn't get the Eldrazi Temple boost is kind of a bummer, and he doesn't hit on T3 very often in my experience anyway. I'd like to hear some opinions before I test Ulamog, though.
I play a 1/1 Split of the 2 and i like it. The big thing karn has over Ulamog i think is that he can come down turn 3-4 and Ulamog is turn 6+ normally
I recently sold a bunch of cards and ordered most of the cards typically used in these builds plus a number of sideboard options, should have them all by today or tomorrow. This deck has attracted me for a while- I think it's gonna bring out my inner Timmy again.
I'm thinking about running it at the SCG Modern Open in Baltimore on the 28th, but I have a few options.
The thing that concerns me is the Chalice of the Void (which is the only card I don't own yet) conflicting with the Expedition Map and Basilisk Collar when set on 1. Sideboarding Basilisk Collar seems obvious, but losing Expedition Map is a pretty big hit for this deck. Is there a two-mana replacement? Don't think so, but thought I'd ask.
Here is a list I might consider running, which does not currently include Chalice... Gotta decide if I want to shell out another ~$250.
Spells/Artifacts
----------------
2 Basilisk Collar
4 Expedition Map
4 Mind Stone
3 Dismember
1 All Is Dust
--
15
Sideboard
---------
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Torpor Orb
--
15
Some standard cards my list is missing, need to think about maybe moving things around and make room:
Chalice of the Void - don't own
Batterskull - don't own this yet either
Warping Wail - own 4
Sea Gate Wreckage - own 1
Here are some non-standard cards I think could potentially be interesting in the sideboard, but I don't see anyone running them:
Platinum Angel - could force a long game (which we want) in some matchups where we would otherwise lose to combo
Platinum Emperion - same as above, but with a big body
Quicksilver Amulet - cheat bigger threats in earlier, plus get around Blood Moon and the need for colorless mana
Lightning Greaves - spot removal protection, plus haste is never bad
Witchbane Orb - hexproof
I agree with redtwister - Chalice in the main seems strongest right now with the likes of Affinity, Burn, Death's Shadow, and Storm being prominent.
Now... let me ask a question, since I'm here. Do folks prefer Karn Liberated or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger? I've been running Karn, and I've been a tad underwhelmed by him. The fact that he doesn't get the Eldrazi Temple boost is kind of a bummer, and he doesn't hit on T3 very often in my experience anyway. I'd like to hear some opinions before I test Ulamog, though.
I play a 1/1 Split of the 2 and i like it. The big thing karn has over Ulamog i think is that he can come down turn 3-4 and Ulamog is turn 6+ normally
Splitting the difference also seems interesting, but I'm not sure how it will do. I guess that's what testing is for.
@The Ceaseless Hunger: I don't think playing Platinum Angel or Emperion "the fair way" is all that attractive, since this deck is pretty good at going long anyway (and you can't count on having T3 Tron to play these guys early when they would be backbreaking to aggro). Lightning Greaves and Witchbane Orb, on the other hand, seem at least a little interesting (though I assume someone more experienced with the deck than either of us can tell us why they're not played).
Well, in regards to going long, against decks that have an inevitable combo into big damage, of which there are many nowadays, a Platinum can draw that game out long enough for us to hopefully get Ulamog/Karn/Ugin out and break their board or mill them. Of course that won't help if they combo on turn 3 or 4, but they won't always do that, and we can't win in that case anyway.
The thing that concerns me is the Chalice of the Void (which is the only card I don't own yet) conflicting with the Expedition Map and Basilisk Collar when set on 1. Sideboarding Basilisk Collar seems obvious, but losing Expedition Map is a pretty big hit for this deck. Is there a two-mana replacement? Don't think so, but thought I'd ask.
I do leave the Collars in the side when I'm playing Chalice main, but you do just have to accept that you might brick one of your Maps. It's not very likely given it's only 4/60 cards. Presumably you're blanking much more on your opponent's side.
Also, to reply to the thread in general, I do like Chalice in the main at the moment and I'm using them, but using Affinity's prevalence as an argument for it isn't necessarily good. It's only good if you know your opponent is on Affinity when you're on the play in game 1 so you can play it on 0. If you let them go they'll just barf out their hand and the Chalice is now relatively useless. It's good in a local meta where you know your opponents, but doesn't really work at a big tournament or on MTGO.
I do leave the Collars in the side when I'm playing Chalice main, but you do just have to accept that you might brick one of your Maps. It's not very likely given it's only 4/60 cards. Presumably you're blanking much more on your opponent's side.
In this case do you mulligan hoping to get a Map on turn 1 to drop before Chalice? I just hate dead draws ... I think I'd really be inclined to take out the Maps if I was fixing to drop 1 counter Chalice.
I do leave the Collars in the side when I'm playing Chalice main, but you do just have to accept that you might brick one of your Maps. It's not very likely given it's only 4/60 cards. Presumably you're blanking much more on your opponent's side.
In this case do you mulligan hoping to get a Map on turn 1 to drop before Chalice? I just hate dead draws ... I think I'd really be inclined to take out the Maps if I was fixing to drop 1 counter Chalice.
I don't think either of those suggestions would be smart...like I said the probability is such that you just shouldn't really worry about it. I know it's a bad feeling, but the deck sees a high amount of success with people playing 4 Map and 4 Chalice regularly. In fact, if you're that worried about dead draws, playing Chalice in the main may not be the best idea, because not uncommonly it will be just that.
Also worth mentioning that you won't always want Chalice on 1 - sometimes it's 2 - and the Chalice versions usually play less than 4 2-drops.
There's also no reason to run 4 wastes in the main and 2 caverns in the side, 1 cavern in the main is enough, but if your meta is blue heavy you can go to 2. I run 3 ghost quarters, 1 cavern and 1 sanctum of ugin.
Listen to BASEDGOD. 4 Wastes are unnecessary. Diversify those flex land spots. It makes your Maps more valuable/flexible then as well.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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There's also no reason to run 4 wastes in the main and 2 caverns in the side, 1 cavern in the main is enough, but if your meta is blue heavy you can go to 2. I run 3 ghost quarters, 1 cavern and 1 sanctum of ugin.
Listen to BASEDGOD. 4 Wastes are unnecessary. Diversify those flex land spots. It makes your Maps more valuable/flexible then as well.
Yeah, fair point. I guess I'm just afraid of Blood Moon and not having colorless. I think I still want to keep 4 total Wastes in the 75 ... or maybe I'm too paranoid. I'll consider the Sanctum.
Man I keep flooding out with all the wrong lands and i never find myself using or needing ghost quarters. Anyone tried dropping to like 23 lands (minus one gq)? i find myself caught half the time with three unmatching tron lands and not much but ghost quarters in my hand
Also Wondering if I should take a pithing needle out for a phyrexian revoker so I dont have so many 1 drop sideboard cards that get screwed over by chalice
Man I keep flooding out with all the wrong lands and i never find myself using or needing ghost quarters. Anyone tried dropping to like 23 lands (minus one gq)? i find myself caught half the time with three unmatching tron lands and not much but ghost quarters in my hand
Also Wondering if I should take a pithing needle out for a phyrexian revoker so I dont have so many 1 drop sideboard cards that get screwed over by chalice
I had similar issues but shuffling more/better has helped a lot.
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Modern BUWAd NauseamBUW-CRAffinityCR-GWBCounters CompanyGWB-BRGDredgeBRG-CWEldrazi and TaxesCW-CEldrazi TronC-BRGJund ShiftBRG-BRGJundBRG-CLantern ControlC-UTronU-RWGNaya BurnRWG-RUStormRU-UTaking TurnsU
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Stepped away from this deck for a bit to play other ones (Burn, Ad Nauseam, etc), I decided to play it again last night at FNM at my LGS and was in the top 8 (7th).
Would have done even better but I screwed myself against Affinity (on the play and had Chalice in hand and didn't put it on Zero).
Also lost to Ad Nauseam on game 3 due to just not getting Chalice or any gas.
Reality Smasher brought the beat down many times.
I also proved to one opponent that I didn't need Tron to win (2 temples in play, crack map for a 3rd then beat down).
One of my opponents is actually building this deck now haha.
I'm said I won't get to play it for another 2 weeks, stupid work!
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I've been running my chalice in the side as I feel it really only shines in certain matchups. I think the deck wants to be an aggro deck first so I opted to not dilute the main board with chalice and instead always go straight for the fast kill G1.
In fact, in my last 2 events over the course of 12 rounds, I think I only sided chalice in once against an 8 rack player. I'd love to hear more I put from others too.
Im sorry to say I think this binary meta response is pretty lazy. I play large events where I don't inherently know the field. Im asking about chalice in general. If your answer is, look at your meta its simple, please don't respond. Not all of us play only little casual tournaments at our lgs.
Addendum:
Chalice is good against the following common fair non-Burn decks anyway:
Grixis and Esper Death's Shadow (on 1)
Affinity (on 0 then on 2)
UW Control (blanks a lot of removal and draw)
GR Tron (on 1)
It is weak to outright terrible against:
Abzan (not super bad on 1)
Bant Eldrazi (not super bad on 1)
Bant Spirits
Merfolk
BW Eldrazi and Taxes
It is also quite bad against creature combo except Elves (provided they do not hit Cavern of Souls in their first couple of turns.)
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Now... let me ask a question, since I'm here. Do folks prefer Karn Liberated or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger? I've been running Karn, and I've been a tad underwhelmed by him. The fact that he doesn't get the Eldrazi Temple boost is kind of a bummer, and he doesn't hit on T3 very often in my experience anyway. I'd like to hear some opinions before I test Ulamog, though.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I play a 1/1 Split of the 2 and i like it. The big thing karn has over Ulamog i think is that he can come down turn 3-4 and Ulamog is turn 6+ normally
I'm thinking about running it at the SCG Modern Open in Baltimore on the 28th, but I have a few options.
The thing that concerns me is the Chalice of the Void (which is the only card I don't own yet) conflicting with the Expedition Map and Basilisk Collar when set on 1. Sideboarding Basilisk Collar seems obvious, but losing Expedition Map is a pretty big hit for this deck. Is there a two-mana replacement? Don't think so, but thought I'd ask.
Here is a list I might consider running, which does not currently include Chalice... Gotta decide if I want to shell out another ~$250.
Lands
-----
4 Wastes
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
--
24
Creatures
---------
4 Walking Ballista
2 Endbringer
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
--
19
Planeswalkers
-------------
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
--
2
Spells/Artifacts
----------------
2 Basilisk Collar
4 Expedition Map
4 Mind Stone
3 Dismember
1 All Is Dust
--
15
Sideboard
---------
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Torpor Orb
--
15
Some standard cards my list is missing, need to think about maybe moving things around and make room:
Chalice of the Void - don't own
Batterskull - don't own this yet either
Warping Wail - own 4
Sea Gate Wreckage - own 1
Here are some non-standard cards I think could potentially be interesting in the sideboard, but I don't see anyone running them:
Platinum Angel - could force a long game (which we want) in some matchups where we would otherwise lose to combo
Platinum Emperion - same as above, but with a big body
Quicksilver Amulet - cheat bigger threats in earlier, plus get around Blood Moon and the need for colorless mana
Lightning Greaves - spot removal protection, plus haste is never bad
Witchbane Orb - hexproof
Appreciate any thoughts you might have.
Splitting the difference also seems interesting, but I'm not sure how it will do. I guess that's what testing is for.
@The Ceaseless Hunger: I don't think playing Platinum Angel or Emperion "the fair way" is all that attractive, since this deck is pretty good at going long anyway (and you can't count on having T3 Tron to play these guys early when they would be backbreaking to aggro). Lightning Greaves and Witchbane Orb, on the other hand, seem at least a little interesting (though I assume someone more experienced with the deck than either of us can tell us why they're not played).
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I do leave the Collars in the side when I'm playing Chalice main, but you do just have to accept that you might brick one of your Maps. It's not very likely given it's only 4/60 cards. Presumably you're blanking much more on your opponent's side.
Also, to reply to the thread in general, I do like Chalice in the main at the moment and I'm using them, but using Affinity's prevalence as an argument for it isn't necessarily good. It's only good if you know your opponent is on Affinity when you're on the play in game 1 so you can play it on 0. If you let them go they'll just barf out their hand and the Chalice is now relatively useless. It's good in a local meta where you know your opponents, but doesn't really work at a big tournament or on MTGO.
In this case do you mulligan hoping to get a Map on turn 1 to drop before Chalice? I just hate dead draws ... I think I'd really be inclined to take out the Maps if I was fixing to drop 1 counter Chalice.
Also worth mentioning that you won't always want Chalice on 1 - sometimes it's 2 - and the Chalice versions usually play less than 4 2-drops.
Listen to BASEDGOD. 4 Wastes are unnecessary. Diversify those flex land spots. It makes your Maps more valuable/flexible then as well.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yeah, fair point. I guess I'm just afraid of Blood Moon and not having colorless. I think I still want to keep 4 total Wastes in the 75 ... or maybe I'm too paranoid. I'll consider the Sanctum.
Deck:
Creatures (19):
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Though-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Walking Ballista
3 Endbringer
Planeswalkers (2):
2 Karn Liberated
Other Spells (15):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Expedition Map
2 Mind Stone
2 Dismember
1 All is Dust
1 Batterskull
1 Basilisk Collar
Lands (24):
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Wastes
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard (15):
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 All is Dust
1 Basilisk Collar
Also Wondering if I should take a pithing needle out for a phyrexian revoker so I dont have so many 1 drop sideboard cards that get screwed over by chalice
I had similar issues but shuffling more/better has helped a lot.
BUWAd NauseamBUW-CRAffinityCR-GWBCounters CompanyGWB-BRGDredgeBRG-CWEldrazi and TaxesCW-CEldrazi TronC-BRGJund ShiftBRG-BRGJundBRG-CLantern ControlC-UTronU-RWGNaya BurnRWG-RUStormRU-UTaking TurnsU
CEldraziC
RBMizzix of the IzmagnusRB-UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Would have done even better but I screwed myself against Affinity (on the play and had Chalice in hand and didn't put it on Zero).
Also lost to Ad Nauseam on game 3 due to just not getting Chalice or any gas.
Reality Smasher brought the beat down many times.
I also proved to one opponent that I didn't need Tron to win (2 temples in play, crack map for a 3rd then beat down).
One of my opponents is actually building this deck now haha.
I'm said I won't get to play it for another 2 weeks, stupid work!
BUWAd NauseamBUW-CRAffinityCR-GWBCounters CompanyGWB-BRGDredgeBRG-CWEldrazi and TaxesCW-CEldrazi TronC-BRGJund ShiftBRG-BRGJundBRG-CLantern ControlC-UTronU-RWGNaya BurnRWG-RUStormRU-UTaking TurnsU
CEldraziC
RBMizzix of the IzmagnusRB-UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR