I do think that the recent printings I’d Once Upon a Time, [card]Castle Garenbrig[/b], and [card]Llanowar Tribe[/b] I’d push us into more straight-forward builds. It’s just much easier for us to play a linear game that gets to our “number” (whether it be 6, 7, 8, 9, or even 10+ mana) much more consistently bumpy turns 3 & 4.
The obvious payoffs are Primeval Titan, Karn, Tooth and Nail, and Wave.
I do think there is still room for the Leyline of Abundance deck to develop. Wren and Six was HUGE when the card was first printed and Once Upon a Time didn’t exist upon its printing. You can now get away with a few less dorks and a few more sinks (while getting the smoothing) which could go a long way to helping the archetype.
My Leyline deck played three copies of Nissa Who Shakes the World as well as two copies of Garruk Wildspeaker (not sure if that is still necessary) but I would need to update it with the addition of Once Upon a Time.
I absolutely do think you could make a Leyline deck that is great (maybe the best). I would end up building one very similar to my above list (as you’d likely still run OUAT, BTE, etc.)
I’m happy to send you and/or post my Leyline list; but it would not be a heavily tested list (as it would be my old list with OUAT and BTE). I will try to test it more to provide more of an educated discussion over the next few days.
A problem with Leyline is that it's one of the cards that CAN be great in your opening hand, but is extremely mediocre any other time.
But here's a list I just threw together. I made a Leyline deck before OuaT existed and posted it, but I didn't care to find it. Devoted Druid is great with Leyline. Not only can it produce 4 mana, but with the vizier combo it can turn Leyline into a wincon.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
That seems really strong I always worried that we’d have to lose the Arbor Elf + Utopi Sprawl package with Leyline; but it’s possible we wouldn’t have to.
I do agree that Leyline is a very top heavy card.
And the same thing here...it’s kinda just straightforward; but with the tools we have now most of our decks are going to look quite straight forward:). It’s a heck of a lot better than trying to find the bad cards that are the “best fit”
Great list and great point about Devoted Druid.
P.S. this makes up my mind what should be in the flex spot in my deck...Wolfbriar Elemental. I love the card. Without having immediate impact I always worry it may be too slow; but I need to play it and see if it’s actually a problem in real life (or if I’m out-thinking myself).
Wolfbriar is both faster than Hornet Queen, an has the potential to be a MUCH better finisher. I've removed it from lists before, and always regretted it. The card is SOOO good in Green Devotion.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
My list had a hair too much set up and not enough payoff; so I’ve switched out the Jadelight Rangers for Voracious Hydra’s. Going to play a tournament if I can this afternoon.
Another point to make comparing Pioneer Devotion to Modern Devotion is the relevance of Nissa, Who Shakes the World. She's generally slow for modern, and we don't often have all that many forests down early. Pioneer gives her time to shine and the inclusion of Once Upon a Time as land/creature search means that we'll generally have more lands on the battlefield in Pioneer. I do agree that the prevalence of early burn for t1 mana dorks in Modern is what largely kept Leyline of Abundance from taking off. I tried several Leyline builds in modern and none of them were as resilient as the traditional manabase. If you haven't found a leyline by t3, all you've got is a big pile of dorks that can't win.
Very well put. Wanted to reiterate this for those coming here from Pioneer
I really hope Pioneer does not take over Modern, I have no interest in another, more limited format.
Moving on. Oko is a great card. It’s possible he could fit in a Simic Devotion strat. I’ll have to revisit Simic Devotion. Again, the only way I’d consider playing Goose is if I’m already playing Oko, and even then, I’m not convinced it’s worth replaced BoP for it, despite W&S being in the format.
I fear that modern is going to be axed with all the cards going to be moved to legacy... Pioneer seems to be the place many fo the shops in my area want to go.
I'm just glad that i can still play mono green devoition in Pioneer.
What do you mean “moved to Legacy”? All the cards in Modern are already in Legacy. And yes, I’m not surprised shops are happy with Pioneer, I could imagine it could be good for business.
I CAN’T imagine Pioneer will be a better format than Modern though.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Was so upset I lost to Dredge to miss the 5-0 :(. He went off by turn three both games (hit 3 of his Creeping Chills in games 1 and 3 respectively by turn 3...so I never had a chance unless I hit a pure god hand and got Karn down on 2 with a Grafdiggers Cage. May have to play Leylines (i hate that but what can you do?).
I was excited about a 4-1 though. The deck felt good. The games were:
1. Azorius Stoneble (Win 2-1) on play
2. Bant Spirits (Win 2-1) on draw
3. Dredge (Loss 1-2) on draw
4. Storm (Win 2-0) on play
5. Sultai Vengevine (Win 2-1) on draw
The last game against the Vengevine deck he seemed to get stuck on turn 3 (he just didn’t hit what he needed to and gave me a turn where he only cast gravecrawler) so I can imagine on others scenarios he may have won...but I was still pleased with the deck.
I will say for those Abundant Growth haters...it allowed me to cast an Engineered Explosives on 3 one game and allowed me to cast Oko against stoneblade...so there is some uses for it
I’m sure I made mistakes and will watch the matches to see if I can learn more/provide more insight. I honestly do think, however, (a) we may be the best Karn the Great Creator shell in the Modern format, and (b) Devotion was improved measurably with the printing of Once Upon a Time and Castle Garenbrig (even though I’m not currently playing castle). I think we are possibly consistent enough to be viable now.
_______________
On Pioneer
Personally, I am a Modern player at heart. There are just too many amazing cards I would miss.
I also feel as you go “down” in formats, skillful play and pre-thought/lines matters less and less (while the board and getting more on the board becomes more important in Pioneer). I don’t necessarily believe in general one is worse than the other. They are just different. I do think you can likely get away with one misplay in Pioneer where in Modern a misplay will normally bury you (which honestly is a positive for Pioneer).
I do, however, believe Pioneer is a GREAT idea. It allows more people to play a non-rotating format, allows people to play the cards they’ve loved from the recent standards...and at least the decks are mildly less expensive (although not as much as I would have expected...silly cards are skyrocketing).
I do think once bannings are done and the novelty of the format wears off it will be a little less appealing...but I like the idea of Modern being its own thing and Pioneer being its own thing (and that the formats “feel” different from one another. Could allow for more Horizons sets in the future. The more formats, the more players, the better for the game I love
I do think the novelty will wear off once the format becomes more about the four best decks and then the “rest” that are far worse; more people will get back to Modern.
Unfortunately, I think Pioneer is actually worse for Legacy than Modern. With SCG not supporting Legacy any longer, the inherent problems with the reserved list, and the success of Modern Horizons; I don’t think Modern is going anywhere. As long as it is supported by WOTC and SCG it will thrive. Pioneer will eat into it a little; but that’s ok. Modern was like 70% of the SCG tour...so there was a little room
I do love that Green Devotion can be played in Pioneer; but it (a) isn’t the same and (b) it’s likely going to see more bans and possibly the removal of Nykthos altogether (although I think they are going to try to keep it at least until after Theros Beyond Death).
______
Pioneer is the new shiny thing. Modern isn’t going anywhere yet.
But one thing is certain....Devotion is the best deck in both formats!!!!
What do you mean “moved to Legacy”? All the cards in Modern are already in Legacy. And yes, I’m not surprised shops are happy with Pioneer, I could imagine it could be good for business.
I CAN’T imagine Pioneer will be a better format than Modern though.
I guess what i mean is they will cut the modern term as a break point, so it will be Legacy, Pioneer, standard... No modern means all the cards in modern will shift to only being played in legacy (which is mostly none of them)
Sam Black wrote an article today discussing literally exactly what we've been talking about. I can't post the entire article (as it is in the Premium section) but I will post his decklist as (a) it is a Leyline deck and I know many have been interested in trying such a deck and (b)
I was really happy to see his list as it is quite similar to the one I've been playing.
1. We both play a mana package (his is Elf, Elf, Nissa WSTW where ours is Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk)
2. We both play full sets of Once Upon a Time and Burning-Tree Emissary (now incredible with Once Upon a Time).
3. We both play Voracious Hydra, Walking Ballista, and Karn as scalable win-cons
He brings up a LOT of points we've discussed in this thread including:
1. How we are the most explosive deck in the format.
2. Scalable tools are our best options (and how important scalability is in Devotion in particular)
3. How we are harder to deal with when we have a split of creatures/non-creatures (where possible)
I was extremely impressed with his knowledge of the deep understanding of how Devotion works and how best to exploit what we do best (while mitigating the issues with playing Devotion).
I honestly don't know if Leyline is superior (I think Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Abundant Growth may be just as strong as Leyline, Llanowar Elf, Noble Heirarch in terms of developing 4-mana by turn 2). Having said this, Once Upon a Time does not hit Utopia Sprawl (where it does hit Hierarch) and Leyline is a Mana-Sink...so there could be something there. I have been happy with the Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl Package; but I will absolutely test Leyline.
One thing I had not tested nearly enough it seems is Vivien, Arkbow Ranger. I assumed it was not strong enough initially, but Sam says that it is far stronger in play than in theory. They cost me a pretty penny online (stupid Pioneer! ) but I will try them out as well and report.
It is a really exciting time for Green Devotion! We are returning to Theros, we've received multiple great cards in the last year, and we are getting written about!
Another point to make comparing Pioneer Devotion to Modern Devotion is the relevance of Nissa, Who Shakes the World. She's generally slow for modern, and we don't often have all that many forests down early. Pioneer gives her time to shine and the inclusion of Once Upon a Time as land/creature search means that we'll generally have more lands on the battlefield in Pioneer. I do agree that the prevalence of early burn for t1 mana dorks in Modern is what largely kept Leyline of Abundance from taking off. I tried several Leyline builds in modern and none of them were as resilient as the traditional manabase. If you haven't found a leyline by t3, all you've got is a big pile of dorks that can't win.
What do you mean Pioneer gives her time to shine? She's coming out T2, T3 at latest, and people are just dead almost immediately afterwards. The Sam Black article was very interesting, and I pointed it out to Alex from the Masters of Modern podcast, bc he has been wondering since Pioneer kicked off w/so many results for Mono-Green on whether a build similar to that could work in Modern. Sam's list looks solid, the question becomes which enablers and which topend are the way to build. We certainly have lots of options available.
What do you mean “moved to Legacy”? All the cards in Modern are already in Legacy. And yes, I’m not surprised shops are happy with Pioneer, I could imagine it could be good for business.
I CAN’T imagine Pioneer will be a better format than Modern though.
I guess what i mean is they will cut the modern term as a break point, so it will be Legacy, Pioneer, standard... No modern means all the cards in modern will shift to only being played in legacy (which is mostly none of them)
None of what you are saying makes any sense. Legacy is the harder format for people to buy into and find enough people to fire events (outside of MTGO). Modern is still everywhere and WotC was pretty clear in the announcement of Pioneer, it will continue to be. Expect to see less and less of Legacy, and more Modern and Pioneer. It doesn't help matters for them that Standard has become a complete crapfest, helping drive people to other formats. Legacy will not be one of those formats.
I like playing Infect. To play Legacy Infect optimally, I need a playset of Tropical Forests, and Force of Wills, not to mention if Oko and OUaT are in the current meta version of the deck. Trops in HP are ~215 on average on TCG right now, and a set of Force is around $250 on there as well. Sooo....over a grand on top of already owning the rest of the deck, just the Legacy specific cards. Decks with the current 4C Delver builds are even more, especially if you are lacking some of the top end Modern legal things like W6 and Oko.
The only change was the addition of two copies of Vivien in the maindeck (replacing one Garruk and one Wall of Blossoms) and one Ulamog in the board (for one Blood Moon).
The decks play very similarly. The only real difference is the ramp package:
- Sam’s list plays 9 dorks, 4 Leylines, and 3 Nissa
- My list plays 7 dorks, 4 sprawls, and 3 Garruk.
The Abundant Growths round out the Devotion-enabling ramp (as they pay for themselves and dig for Nykthos).
I will say that there may be something to playing the Leyline deck due to Once Upon a Time. Once (and Oath) can’t grab Utopia Sprawl. This could matter. Thus far, however, with Once Upon a time I haven’t had any issues ramping.
It comes down to whether:
1. You prefer Garruk Wildspeaker or Nissa, Who Shakes the World
2. The risk of playing a 4-mana engine card is outweighed by the potential for explosive first turns (that couldn’t be attained with Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl).
I’m not certain. There are negatives and positives to both:
1. Leyline is a better late-game draw (as it can be used as a mana-sink)
2. Leyline is an engine card; so it’s not great without dorks. This is offset a little by the 2 “pips” of Devotion. I did have a game where the 2 Devotion helped as I went BTE, BTE, Nissa, Huge Hydra...but
I don’t know if Vivien is Necessary yet; but Todd is right that she was good when I played her. And he is also right that nearly every game you + her you will just grab an Ulamog the next turn (although I did grab Ruric Thar a few matches and Nylea’s Disciple against a burn deck one match). The is something I am playing close attention to.
I know Nissa, Who Shakes the World is a powerful Planeswalker; and i have played it in the past...but i feel it is so important for your walkers to be 4-cmc (to be cast on turn 2). It’s possible that a turn 3 Nissa can win a game all on its own; but (a) I worry about turning lands into creatures (as the deck often runs on only a few lands) and (b) 5-CMC is a full turn difference from 4-CMC in some cases. The raw power may simply be worth it; and there is synergy there with Leyline....so i likely am just wrong. I could just be so used to the deck and Garruk.
I do like the reduced amount of mana dorks in the Leyline list. With the old Leyline list; I had WAY to many games where my hand and/or board were a ton of dorks and Devoted Druids with no action. Even the Leyline buff wasn’t enough in those situations.
I do think the amount of Wren and Six, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, and Path (to a lesser extent) matters greatly as to whether Leyline works or not. In honesty i can’t say one ramp package is superior yet. Leyline can be ridiculous (I had one game where I put two Leylines in and cast a Once Upon a time for free on turn 1)...so if the hate isn’t too strong for small creatures I think it is a spectacular deck.
I'm off the Leyline deck. You can't get away with playing Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl and that package is to important. Remember Garruk is great with Sprawl too. It's not worth it.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Another point to make comparing Pioneer Devotion to Modern Devotion is the relevance of Nissa, Who Shakes the World. She's generally slow for modern, and we don't often have all that many forests down early. Pioneer gives her time to shine and the inclusion of Once Upon a Time as land/creature search means that we'll generally have more lands on the battlefield in Pioneer. I do agree that the prevalence of early burn for t1 mana dorks in Modern is what largely kept Leyline of Abundance from taking off. I tried several Leyline builds in modern and none of them were as resilient as the traditional manabase. If you haven't found a leyline by t3, all you've got is a big pile of dorks that can't win.
What do you mean Pioneer gives her time to shine? She's coming out T2, T3 at latest, and people are just dead almost immediately afterwards. The Sam Black article was very interesting, and I pointed it out to Alex from the Masters of Modern podcast, bc he has been wondering since Pioneer kicked off w/so many results for Mono-Green on whether a build similar to that could work in Modern. Sam's list looks solid, the question becomes which enablers and which topend are the way to build. We certainly have lots of options available.
What do you mean “moved to Legacy”? All the cards in Modern are already in Legacy. And yes, I’m not surprised shops are happy with Pioneer, I could imagine it could be good for business.
I CAN’T imagine Pioneer will be a better format than Modern though.
I guess what i mean is they will cut the modern term as a break point, so it will be Legacy, Pioneer, standard... No modern means all the cards in modern will shift to only being played in legacy (which is mostly none of them)
None of what you are saying makes any sense. Legacy is the harder format for people to buy into and find enough people to fire events (outside of MTGO). Modern is still everywhere and WotC was pretty clear in the announcement of Pioneer, it will continue to be. Expect to see less and less of Legacy, and more Modern and Pioneer. It doesn't help matters for them that Standard has become a complete crapfest, helping drive people to other formats. Legacy will not be one of those formats.
I like playing Infect. To play Legacy Infect optimally, I need a playset of Tropical Forests, and Force of Wills, not to mention if Oko and OUaT are in the current meta version of the deck. Trops in HP are ~215 on average on TCG right now, and a set of Force is around $250 on there as well. Sooo....over a grand on top of already owning the rest of the deck, just the Legacy specific cards. Decks with the current 4C Delver builds are even more, especially if you are lacking some of the top end Modern legal things like W6 and Oko.
I'm new to the forum but a long time green devotion lover.
I am currently working on a build for MKM series next week and would like to hear your opinions.
Here's the Decklist:
Main focus here is to maintain devotion & creatures longer with Kitchen Finks and Strangleroot Geist. I tried Steel Leaf Champion, but even for Mono Green it's sometimes hard to get GGG, and chaining BTEs into Champion doesn't work, sadly.
I expect a lot of red decks as well as Jund/Death's Shadow with tons of removal. Wanna give them a hard time
Questing Beast is in testing mode, but with all the Planeswalkers like W6 and Oko I think it might be useful. I also stick with Garruk because he's just the best fit for the deck.
Any suggestions are welcome, especially for the sideboard.
Welcome to the forum, Sensei.
Are you really running Arbor Elf and Garruk with no Utopia Sprawl or is that a typo (am I just blind?) I agree that if you're only running 4 1-drop mana dorks and 4 BTE, then SLC isn't going to fit well with your deck. You'd have to turn either the Finks or the Geist into Birds of Paradise (or some other 1drop dork) if you wanted to run SLC consistently. Other than that, the deck looks like a pretty traditional list.
I'm interested in your thought process behind choosing numbers for your "Other" cards, for searching. I've always felt Oath was weak because it only digs 3, but at one mana, and contributing to devotion, I"ve been loathe to cut it as it helps early consistency. That left me trying to decide how to choose between Summoner's pact, Primal Command, and now Once Upon a Time. I can't deny the power of OUaT to help smooth opening hands and find Nykthos. So how many slots do I devote to OUaT vs straight-searching with Pact or the swiss-army-knife solution in Primal Command?
Oath of Nissa
+Plays early to fix land/dorks
+Can find Planeswalkers
+Contributes to Devotion
-Only digs 3, no searching
Summoner's Pact
+Gets exactly what you need
+Can play the search target same-turn (mana efficient)
-Can't play early, doesn't help fix
-Consumes 4 mana from next turn
Primal Command
+Versatile, interactive
+Gets exactly what you need
-Slow, Can't play search target in same turn
Once Upon a Time
+Super efficient at smoothing opening draws
-Only digs 5, no searching
My current set up only affords 7 slots for these cards, but maybe I need to reassess how helpful they are vs some of the other utility cards in my deck.
I'm off the Leyline deck. You can't get away with playing Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl and that package is to important. Remember Garruk is great with Sprawl too. It's not worth it.
I agree with you based on my current testing. I just haven't had any results with the Leyline deck that made me see how it is superior to the Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl/Garruk package.
It may be that I haven't tested enough to get a real feel for the Leyline deck (and obviously my many years playing with Arbor Elf and Garruk probably start me with a bias...) but I just haven't seen it yet.
I'm not certain that the addition of another 4-drop (granted it is free on turn 1) and a 5-drop walker over a 4-drop walker (in a deck that has a few ways to get to 4-mana on turn 2) is worth it.
This brings me to a point I noticed a little bit with Nissa, Who Shakes the World. I'm not entirely certain she is as useful in Modern in this specific deck. While we are a big mana deck, we actually tend to run on only a few lands (one of which being Nykthos). So here static ability is not as useful, but more importantly her turning the lands into creatures can become a liability. Nissa is obviously an insanely powerful card. I'm just not sure the 5-CMC and potentially making lands vulnerable to creature removal is something you want to be doing in Modern. Having said this, you could always play Garruk in a Leyline Build...there just is no real synergy between the two...so I think if you play Leyline you likely want to play Nissa.
While the Leyline deck CAN have more explosive starts; the deck already has incredibly explosive starts (Karn on 2, etc.) and can get to 10 mana on turn 3 in multiple ways...I just am not certain Leyline is worth the additional risks it adds to the deck.
I will continue to test it and make sure I don't miss something. I am no Sam Black; so I can't pretend that my experiences/thoughts hold the same weight as his; so I very likely could be missing something in my testing. Right now, however, I am still on Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Garruk Wildspeaker over Leyline, dorks, and Nissa.
Welcome to the forum, Sensei.
Are you really running Arbor Elf and Garruk with no Utopia Sprawl or is that a typo (am I just blind?) I agree that if you're only running 4 1-drop mana dorks and 4 BTE, then SLC isn't going to fit well with your deck. You'd have to turn either the Finks or the Geist into Birds of Paradise (or some other 1drop dork) if you wanted to run SLC consistently. Other than that, the deck looks like a pretty traditional list.
I'm interested in your thought process behind choosing numbers for your "Other" cards, for searching. I've always felt Oath was weak because it only digs 3, but at one mana, and contributing to devotion, I"ve been loathe to cut it as it helps early consistency. That left me trying to decide how to choose between Summoner's pact, Primal Command, and now Once Upon a Time. I can't deny the power of OUaT to help smooth opening hands and find Nykthos. So how many slots do I devote to OUaT vs straight-searching with Pact or the swiss-army-knife solution in Primal Command?
Oath of Nissa
+Plays early to fix land/dorks
+Can find Planeswalkers
+Contributes to Devotion
-Only digs 3, no searching
Summoner's Pact
+Gets exactly what you need
+Can play the search target same-turn (mana efficient)
-Can't play early, doesn't help fix
-Consumes 4 mana from next turn
Primal Command
+Versatile, interactive
+Gets exactly what you need
-Slow, Can't play search target in same turn
Once Upon a Time
+Super efficient at smoothing opening draws
-Only digs 5, no searching
My current set up only affords 7 slots for these cards, but maybe I need to reassess how helpful they are vs some of the other utility cards in my deck.
Thx:D
Whoops, I forgot to list the Utopia Sprawls, my bad.
Now that I think about it I may be better of without Oath because I'm not really trying to find or rely too much on Planeswalkers and OUaT also finds me creatures and lands without loosing momentum on the early turns. I'll try 4x OUaT and 4x Pacts. That opens up 2 slots, maybe for Tireless Tracker?
Tbh, I also struggle with the perfect split between tutor and dig cards. I think it strongly depends on your overall game plan. My list is more aggressive and wants to finish the game with Craterhoof Behemoth as fast as possible by searching it via Summoner's Pact. For that reason I choose Pact over Command, its just faster and often I don't have to bother with the costs a turn later. With hard-to-kill minions like Finks/Geist I want to ensure that my board stays long enough to make 'Hoof lethal. Event if that plan fails and I have to grab something like Hornet Queen against Jund I don't want to wait a turn until I play it with the chance of it being discarded.
If you're playing a deck with lots of silver bullets or very important creatures for closing games you need more tutors to have the right answer to a problem.
If I where to play a slower more grindy list I would definitely play Command over Pact.
To get most out of OUaT you don't want to run low on targets and to consistently have it in your opening hand less than 3 copies isn't recommendable.
I wouldn't go over 3 Primal Commands, except you're going all in Eternal Witness + Command Combo.
Without knowing your list and gameplan it's hard to say what split to play, but I would suggest 4x OUaT and 3x Commands.
Hope that helped^_^;
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I do think that the recent printings I’d Once Upon a Time, [card]Castle Garenbrig[/b], and [card]Llanowar Tribe[/b] I’d push us into more straight-forward builds. It’s just much easier for us to play a linear game that gets to our “number” (whether it be 6, 7, 8, 9, or even 10+ mana) much more consistently bumpy turns 3 & 4.
The obvious payoffs are Primeval Titan, Karn, Tooth and Nail, and Wave.
I do think there is still room for the Leyline of Abundance deck to develop. Wren and Six was HUGE when the card was first printed and Once Upon a Time didn’t exist upon its printing. You can now get away with a few less dorks and a few more sinks (while getting the smoothing) which could go a long way to helping the archetype.
My Leyline deck played three copies of Nissa Who Shakes the World as well as two copies of Garruk Wildspeaker (not sure if that is still necessary) but I would need to update it with the addition of Once Upon a Time.
I absolutely do think you could make a Leyline deck that is great (maybe the best). I would end up building one very similar to my above list (as you’d likely still run OUAT, BTE, etc.)
I’m happy to send you and/or post my Leyline list; but it would not be a heavily tested list (as it would be my old list with OUAT and BTE). I will try to test it more to provide more of an educated discussion over the next few days.
But here's a list I just threw together. I made a Leyline deck before OuaT existed and posted it, but I didn't care to find it. Devoted Druid is great with Leyline. Not only can it produce 4 mana, but with the vizier combo it can turn Leyline into a wincon.
1 Acidic Slime
4 Arbor Elf
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
1 Vizier of Remedies
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Hornet Queen
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Scavenging Ooze
Other STuff
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Leyline of Abundance
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Finale of Devastation
3 Oath of Nissa
4 Once Upon a Time
6 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Walking Ballista
3 Blood Moon
2 Abrade
3 Veil of Summer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Scavenging Ooze
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I do agree that Leyline is a very top heavy card.
And the same thing here...it’s kinda just straightforward; but with the tools we have now most of our decks are going to look quite straight forward:). It’s a heck of a lot better than trying to find the bad cards that are the “best fit”
Great list and great point about Devoted Druid.
P.S. this makes up my mind what should be in the flex spot in my deck...Wolfbriar Elemental. I love the card. Without having immediate impact I always worry it may be too slow; but I need to play it and see if it’s actually a problem in real life (or if I’m out-thinking myself).
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Very well put. Wanted to reiterate this for those coming here from Pioneer
Beat Azorius Stoneblade (2-1)
Changed the list quite a bit since testing this weekend(wanted to test a little before playing a league).
Granted, the first game the opponent conceded to a turn 2 Karn...but the third game was great.
Updated List:
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Wall of Blossoms
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
2x Walking Ballista
2x Voracious Hydra
Planeswalker (8)
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Karn the Great Creator
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Abundant Growth
4x Once Upon a Time
Land (20)
7x Green Fetch Land
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
7x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
1x Liquimetal Coating
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Oko, Theif of Crowns
2x Veil of Summer
3x Blood Moon
I fear that modern is going to be axed with all the cards going to be moved to legacy... Pioneer seems to be the place many fo the shops in my area want to go.
I'm just glad that i can still play mono green devoition in Pioneer.
What do you mean “moved to Legacy”? All the cards in Modern are already in Legacy. And yes, I’m not surprised shops are happy with Pioneer, I could imagine it could be good for business.
I CAN’T imagine Pioneer will be a better format than Modern though.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Was so upset I lost to Dredge to miss the 5-0 :(. He went off by turn three both games (hit 3 of his Creeping Chills in games 1 and 3 respectively by turn 3...so I never had a chance unless I hit a pure god hand and got Karn down on 2 with a Grafdiggers Cage. May have to play Leylines (i hate that but what can you do?).
I was excited about a 4-1 though. The deck felt good. The games were:
1. Azorius Stoneble (Win 2-1) on play
2. Bant Spirits (Win 2-1) on draw
3. Dredge (Loss 1-2) on draw
4. Storm (Win 2-0) on play
5. Sultai Vengevine (Win 2-1) on draw
The last game against the Vengevine deck he seemed to get stuck on turn 3 (he just didn’t hit what he needed to and gave me a turn where he only cast gravecrawler) so I can imagine on others scenarios he may have won...but I was still pleased with the deck.
I will say for those Abundant Growth haters...it allowed me to cast an Engineered Explosives on 3 one game and allowed me to cast Oko against stoneblade...so there is some uses for it
I’m sure I made mistakes and will watch the matches to see if I can learn more/provide more insight. I honestly do think, however, (a) we may be the best Karn the Great Creator shell in the Modern format, and (b) Devotion was improved measurably with the printing of Once Upon a Time and Castle Garenbrig (even though I’m not currently playing castle). I think we are possibly consistent enough to be viable now.
_______________
On Pioneer
Personally, I am a Modern player at heart. There are just too many amazing cards I would miss.
I also feel as you go “down” in formats, skillful play and pre-thought/lines matters less and less (while the board and getting more on the board becomes more important in Pioneer). I don’t necessarily believe in general one is worse than the other. They are just different. I do think you can likely get away with one misplay in Pioneer where in Modern a misplay will normally bury you (which honestly is a positive for Pioneer).
I do, however, believe Pioneer is a GREAT idea. It allows more people to play a non-rotating format, allows people to play the cards they’ve loved from the recent standards...and at least the decks are mildly less expensive (although not as much as I would have expected...silly cards are skyrocketing).
I do think once bannings are done and the novelty of the format wears off it will be a little less appealing...but I like the idea of Modern being its own thing and Pioneer being its own thing (and that the formats “feel” different from one another. Could allow for more Horizons sets in the future. The more formats, the more players, the better for the game I love
I do think the novelty will wear off once the format becomes more about the four best decks and then the “rest” that are far worse; more people will get back to Modern.
Unfortunately, I think Pioneer is actually worse for Legacy than Modern. With SCG not supporting Legacy any longer, the inherent problems with the reserved list, and the success of Modern Horizons; I don’t think Modern is going anywhere. As long as it is supported by WOTC and SCG it will thrive. Pioneer will eat into it a little; but that’s ok. Modern was like 70% of the SCG tour...so there was a little room
I do love that Green Devotion can be played in Pioneer; but it (a) isn’t the same and (b) it’s likely going to see more bans and possibly the removal of Nykthos altogether (although I think they are going to try to keep it at least until after Theros Beyond Death).
______
Pioneer is the new shiny thing. Modern isn’t going anywhere yet.
But one thing is certain....Devotion is the best deck in both formats!!!!
I guess what i mean is they will cut the modern term as a break point, so it will be Legacy, Pioneer, standard... No modern means all the cards in modern will shift to only being played in legacy (which is mostly none of them)
I was really happy to see his list as it is quite similar to the one I've been playing.
1. We both play a mana package (his is Elf, Elf, Nissa WSTW where ours is Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk)
2. We both play full sets of Once Upon a Time and Burning-Tree Emissary (now incredible with Once Upon a Time).
3. We both play Voracious Hydra, Walking Ballista, and Karn as scalable win-cons
He brings up a LOT of points we've discussed in this thread including:
1. How we are the most explosive deck in the format.
2. Scalable tools are our best options (and how important scalability is in Devotion in particular)
3. How we are harder to deal with when we have a split of creatures/non-creatures (where possible)
I was extremely impressed with his knowledge of the deep understanding of how Devotion works and how best to exploit what we do best (while mitigating the issues with playing Devotion).
I honestly don't know if Leyline is superior (I think Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Abundant Growth may be just as strong as Leyline, Llanowar Elf, Noble Heirarch in terms of developing 4-mana by turn 2). Having said this, Once Upon a Time does not hit Utopia Sprawl (where it does hit Hierarch) and Leyline is a Mana-Sink...so there could be something there. I have been happy with the Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl Package; but I will absolutely test Leyline.
One thing I had not tested nearly enough it seems is Vivien, Arkbow Ranger. I assumed it was not strong enough initially, but Sam says that it is far stronger in play than in theory. They cost me a pretty penny online (stupid Pioneer!
It is a really exciting time for Green Devotion! We are returning to Theros, we've received multiple great cards in the last year, and we are getting written about!
Here is His list:
What do you mean Pioneer gives her time to shine? She's coming out T2, T3 at latest, and people are just dead almost immediately afterwards. The Sam Black article was very interesting, and I pointed it out to Alex from the Masters of Modern podcast, bc he has been wondering since Pioneer kicked off w/so many results for Mono-Green on whether a build similar to that could work in Modern. Sam's list looks solid, the question becomes which enablers and which topend are the way to build. We certainly have lots of options available.
None of what you are saying makes any sense. Legacy is the harder format for people to buy into and find enough people to fire events (outside of MTGO). Modern is still everywhere and WotC was pretty clear in the announcement of Pioneer, it will continue to be. Expect to see less and less of Legacy, and more Modern and Pioneer. It doesn't help matters for them that Standard has become a complete crapfest, helping drive people to other formats. Legacy will not be one of those formats.
I like playing Infect. To play Legacy Infect optimally, I need a playset of Tropical Forests, and Force of Wills, not to mention if Oko and OUaT are in the current meta version of the deck. Trops in HP are ~215 on average on TCG right now, and a set of Force is around $250 on there as well. Sooo....over a grand on top of already owning the rest of the deck, just the Legacy specific cards. Decks with the current 4C Delver builds are even more, especially if you are lacking some of the top end Modern legal things like W6 and Oko.
Updated List:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Walking Ballista
2x Voracious Hydra
Planeswalker (9)
2x Vivien, Arkbow Ranger
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Karn the Great Creator
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Abundant Growth
4x Once Upon a Time
Land (20)
7x Green Fetch Land
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
7x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
1x Liquimetal Coating
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Nylea’s Disciple
2x Oko, Theif of Crowns
2x Veil of Summer
2x Blood Moon
The only change was the addition of two copies of Vivien in the maindeck (replacing one Garruk and one Wall of Blossoms) and one Ulamog in the board (for one Blood Moon).
The decks play very similarly. The only real difference is the ramp package:
- Sam’s list plays 9 dorks, 4 Leylines, and 3 Nissa
- My list plays 7 dorks, 4 sprawls, and 3 Garruk.
The Abundant Growths round out the Devotion-enabling ramp (as they pay for themselves and dig for Nykthos).
I will say that there may be something to playing the Leyline deck due to Once Upon a Time. Once (and Oath) can’t grab Utopia Sprawl. This could matter. Thus far, however, with Once Upon a time I haven’t had any issues ramping.
It comes down to whether:
1. You prefer Garruk Wildspeaker or Nissa, Who Shakes the World
2. The risk of playing a 4-mana engine card is outweighed by the potential for explosive first turns (that couldn’t be attained with Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl).
I’m not certain. There are negatives and positives to both:
1. Leyline is a better late-game draw (as it can be used as a mana-sink)
2. Leyline is an engine card; so it’s not great without dorks. This is offset a little by the 2 “pips” of Devotion. I did have a game where the 2 Devotion helped as I went BTE, BTE, Nissa, Huge Hydra...but
I don’t know if Vivien is Necessary yet; but Todd is right that she was good when I played her. And he is also right that nearly every game you + her you will just grab an Ulamog the next turn (although I did grab Ruric Thar a few matches and Nylea’s Disciple against a burn deck one match). The is something I am playing close attention to.
I know Nissa, Who Shakes the World is a powerful Planeswalker; and i have played it in the past...but i feel it is so important for your walkers to be 4-cmc (to be cast on turn 2). It’s possible that a turn 3 Nissa can win a game all on its own; but (a) I worry about turning lands into creatures (as the deck often runs on only a few lands) and (b) 5-CMC is a full turn difference from 4-CMC in some cases. The raw power may simply be worth it; and there is synergy there with Leyline....so i likely am just wrong. I could just be so used to the deck and Garruk.
I do like the reduced amount of mana dorks in the Leyline list. With the old Leyline list; I had WAY to many games where my hand and/or board were a ton of dorks and Devoted Druids with no action. Even the Leyline buff wasn’t enough in those situations.
I do think the amount of Wren and Six, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, and Path (to a lesser extent) matters greatly as to whether Leyline works or not. In honesty i can’t say one ramp package is superior yet. Leyline can be ridiculous (I had one game where I put two Leylines in and cast a Once Upon a time for free on turn 1)...so if the hate isn’t too strong for small creatures I think it is a spectacular deck.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I hope your right
I'm new to the forum but a long time green devotion lover.
I am currently working on a build for MKM series next week and would like to hear your opinions.
Here's the Decklist:
1x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Eternal Witness
1x Hornet Queen
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Questing Beast
4x Strangleroot Geist
1x Walking Ballista
Planeswalker
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
Other
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Once Upon A Time
3x Summoner's Pact
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Stomping Ground
7x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Blood Moon
1x Carnage Tyrant
1x Collector Ouphe
1x Elderscale Wurm
1x Nissa, Vital Force
3x Veil of Summer
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
Main focus here is to maintain devotion & creatures longer with Kitchen Finks and Strangleroot Geist. I tried Steel Leaf Champion, but even for Mono Green it's sometimes hard to get GGG, and chaining BTEs into Champion doesn't work, sadly.
I expect a lot of red decks as well as Jund/Death's Shadow with tons of removal. Wanna give them a hard time
Questing Beast is in testing mode, but with all the Planeswalkers like W6 and Oko I think it might be useful. I also stick with Garruk because he's just the best fit for the deck.
Any suggestions are welcome, especially for the sideboard.
Cheers
Are you really running Arbor Elf and Garruk with no Utopia Sprawl or is that a typo (am I just blind?) I agree that if you're only running 4 1-drop mana dorks and 4 BTE, then SLC isn't going to fit well with your deck. You'd have to turn either the Finks or the Geist into Birds of Paradise (or some other 1drop dork) if you wanted to run SLC consistently. Other than that, the deck looks like a pretty traditional list.
I'm interested in your thought process behind choosing numbers for your "Other" cards, for searching. I've always felt Oath was weak because it only digs 3, but at one mana, and contributing to devotion, I"ve been loathe to cut it as it helps early consistency. That left me trying to decide how to choose between Summoner's pact, Primal Command, and now Once Upon a Time. I can't deny the power of OUaT to help smooth opening hands and find Nykthos. So how many slots do I devote to OUaT vs straight-searching with Pact or the swiss-army-knife solution in Primal Command?
Oath of Nissa
+Plays early to fix land/dorks
+Can find Planeswalkers
+Contributes to Devotion
-Only digs 3, no searching
Summoner's Pact
+Gets exactly what you need
+Can play the search target same-turn (mana efficient)
-Can't play early, doesn't help fix
-Consumes 4 mana from next turn
Primal Command
+Versatile, interactive
+Gets exactly what you need
-Slow, Can't play search target in same turn
Once Upon a Time
+Super efficient at smoothing opening draws
-Only digs 5, no searching
My current set up only affords 7 slots for these cards, but maybe I need to reassess how helpful they are vs some of the other utility cards in my deck.
I agree with you based on my current testing. I just haven't had any results with the Leyline deck that made me see how it is superior to the Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl/Garruk package.
It may be that I haven't tested enough to get a real feel for the Leyline deck (and obviously my many years playing with Arbor Elf and Garruk probably start me with a bias...) but I just haven't seen it yet.
I'm not certain that the addition of another 4-drop (granted it is free on turn 1) and a 5-drop walker over a 4-drop walker (in a deck that has a few ways to get to 4-mana on turn 2) is worth it.
This brings me to a point I noticed a little bit with Nissa, Who Shakes the World. I'm not entirely certain she is as useful in Modern in this specific deck. While we are a big mana deck, we actually tend to run on only a few lands (one of which being Nykthos). So here static ability is not as useful, but more importantly her turning the lands into creatures can become a liability. Nissa is obviously an insanely powerful card. I'm just not sure the 5-CMC and potentially making lands vulnerable to creature removal is something you want to be doing in Modern. Having said this, you could always play Garruk in a Leyline Build...there just is no real synergy between the two...so I think if you play Leyline you likely want to play Nissa.
While the Leyline deck CAN have more explosive starts; the deck already has incredibly explosive starts (Karn on 2, etc.) and can get to 10 mana on turn 3 in multiple ways...I just am not certain Leyline is worth the additional risks it adds to the deck.
I will continue to test it and make sure I don't miss something. I am no Sam Black; so I can't pretend that my experiences/thoughts hold the same weight as his; so I very likely could be missing something in my testing. Right now, however, I am still on Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Garruk Wildspeaker over Leyline, dorks, and Nissa.
Thx:D
Whoops, I forgot to list the Utopia Sprawls, my bad.
Now that I think about it I may be better of without Oath because I'm not really trying to find or rely too much on Planeswalkers and OUaT also finds me creatures and lands without loosing momentum on the early turns. I'll try 4x OUaT and 4x Pacts. That opens up 2 slots, maybe for Tireless Tracker?
Tbh, I also struggle with the perfect split between tutor and dig cards. I think it strongly depends on your overall game plan. My list is more aggressive and wants to finish the game with Craterhoof Behemoth as fast as possible by searching it via Summoner's Pact. For that reason I choose Pact over Command, its just faster and often I don't have to bother with the costs a turn later. With hard-to-kill minions like Finks/Geist I want to ensure that my board stays long enough to make 'Hoof lethal. Event if that plan fails and I have to grab something like Hornet Queen against Jund I don't want to wait a turn until I play it with the chance of it being discarded.
If you're playing a deck with lots of silver bullets or very important creatures for closing games you need more tutors to have the right answer to a problem.
If I where to play a slower more grindy list I would definitely play Command over Pact.
To get most out of OUaT you don't want to run low on targets and to consistently have it in your opening hand less than 3 copies isn't recommendable.
I wouldn't go over 3 Primal Commands, except you're going all in Eternal Witness + Command Combo.
Without knowing your list and gameplan it's hard to say what split to play, but I would suggest 4x OUaT and 3x Commands.
Hope that helped^_^;