I agree with Fulgence on Hydroid Krasis. It's a value card that is good against control, but in the vast majority of matchups it's just a "decent" or "bad" card. In Tooth and Nail lists, it is decent as a 1-2 of, since that deck is actively digging for a combo piece, while generating mana faster than traditional Devotion. In normal devotion though, it is merely a roleplayer. This deck doesn't need any more value, it needs cards that say: "answer this or you're dead", or "I effectively win the game/boardstate".
I think some players will get caught up in the thought of eeking out as much value/mana as possible, and grinding harder that the opponent. The deck is already decent versus midrange, so the only benefit that would give is versus control...which can be reset by a simple sweeper. Sometimes you just gotta get rid of the fluff, and just kill the opponent. I don't think Hydroid Krasis does that to any degree.
Agreed. This was the point I was trying to get across in my list (that my list plays a different access then the more "traditional" devotion lists...its more about overwhelming and getting to the combo). Even then, I still only play it out of the board against the decks it shines against...and even after all of this; there may still be better board options It has been good; so it has a place in my "Devotion box" of cards that can be potentially played....I just don't think it fits in all Devotion decks (and not in the more "traditional" devotion lists only working to 6-8 mana quickly).
I don’t advise playing cards like Krassis in the sideboard. Sideboard is usually meant for cards that are super powerful in certain matchups, or very good against many archetypes. Krassis does gain life and also is decent against control, so you could play it against grindy midrange decks, burn, and control, so perhaps that’s enough, but it doesn’t seem like the kind of card you want in traditional devotion for the reason Gruul mentioned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
is tooth and nail a devotion or an overgrowth deck?
Yeah...this was one of the tougher items we’ve dealt with in the past. There are Tooth and Nail decks that only play 1-2 copies of Nykthos (and you technically could play T&N without Nykthos.
The community decided at the time to keep them within the same forum (based partially due to the fact that most successful T&N decks did play Nykthos) and based on the many similarities between the decks.
I haven’t done a good enough job on the Primer separating them and describing each well. I hope to have some time this Sunday to improve upon it and update the dates sections.
_____
I feel like Domri, Anarch of Bolas should be useful for some of my lists (and possibly other Devotion lists to be honest). We tend to go a little wide, can use the mana he generates, and have creatures big enough to make his "fight" worth it.
I think Domri and Kiora may end up being the cards that work in Devotion (for different decks for different reasons). What are others thoughts?
______
** EDIT **
I got rid of the decklist(s) I am testing. I feel it is more important to provide the interactions/information I find first...and then provide a list once it is more "concrete" (rather than multiple lists in a row).
Thus far I have found:
1. Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner is good with Craterhoof as she can untap a dork used to cast him and still attack with it.
2. The combination of Kiora, Domri, and Garruk can be strong just by themselves (as Garruk creates a 4/3 token due to Domri's buff...which in turn draws a card due to Kiora's static ability. Obviously, this will rarely happen (and they'd have to be in the same deck....) but it did come up so I thought I should post it.
I've been playing Chord of Calling instead of Finale (due to my use of Visionary and Selkie) but will also make notes as to how Finale would have worked in its place.
I think you're right. I guess krasis is good if you're in topdeck mode against an opponent, but you have lots of mana for it to matter? Value cards like SLC or leatherback would impact the board in more match ups a lot faster, and gives more devotion.
So...I've been testing a LOT of different ideas the last two days (and hope to continue the rest of today and part of tomorrow). Thus far I've found a few interesting new interactions:
2. Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner is good with Craterhoof as she can untap a dork used to cast him and still attack with it.
3. The combination of Kiora, Domri, and Garruk can be strong just by themselves (as Garruk creates a 4/3 token due to Domri's buff...which in turn draws a card due to Kiora's static ability. Obviously, this won’t happen all the time (and they'd have to be in the same deck....) but it did come up so I thought I should post it. They seem to work really well together
4. Blast Zone is not bad with Knight of the Reliquary. It does put a strain on the mana base; but having removal you can tutor for has got me out of a few sticky situations.
I also have some doubts about Finale, since GGx instead of just Gx like GSZ means it's a lot more expensive.... Double the cost to be precise. BUT! It can fetch nongreen cards, which opens up a lot more possibilities. I would pay less attention to the +10+10 clause. Though it's a nice bonus that can end games sometimes, the real power is being a slightly more expensive GSZ, and unlike GSZ it can be rebought with E-witness.
So now let's compare it to the most similar legal modern card, Chord of Calling. It's actually only 1 less expensive than Chord, and we can't use all our creatures to pay the cost, so in some instances it's not cheaper, plus it's Sorcery speed. The Chord and Druid turn 3 infinite combo has not found its way into Green Devotion very successfully, because there aren't as many immediate wincons as the traditional devoted vizier decks to have a reliable win as soon as the combo is enabled.
on similar topic, i've been messing around with convoke for 4 chord of calling 4 March of the Multitudes. results have been pretty nice, End of Opponents Turn put some tokens on the field, or chord for ramp creatures, next turn garruk wildspeaker or Nissa, voice of zendikar what ever the situation allows. However I want to drop March of secure the wastes due to mana efficientcy (plus i didn't know it existed when i started this.)…
I do think Chord is likely in a good place. I stopped playing Chord when tutor hate was everywhere...but it has died down quite a bit. Chord is a great choice for non-green tutors and for "go wide" decks like you are talking about. Pact is faster in Devotion decks in general...but there are certainly decks where Chord is preferable.
I've been running a deck with Kiora, Garruk, and Domri, and I've been pleasantly surprised by the utility they provide. Domri pumping up all the dorks makes him an actual threat, and having the ability to fight creatures is very relevant. The buff he provides to beasts is also useful...I was able to make 2 beasts and draw 2 cards in a stalled boardstate with Kiora and Garruk, and it helped push me over the edge. I think they are a nice little midrange package to have in the deck.
On the other hand, I've been pretty unimpressed with Finale. A lot of times I wished it was Primal Command...but that may be due to the fact that I didn't have any of-color silver bullets to tutor for, but rather the traditional green tutor targets. I might try running it with Devoted Druid and see where that takes me.
I've been running a deck with Kiora, Garruk, and Domri, and I've been pleasantly surprised by the utility they provide. Domri pumping up all the dorks makes him an actual threat, and having the ability to fight creatures is very relevant. The buff he provides to beasts is also useful...I was able to make 2 beasts and draw 2 cards in a stalled boardstate with Kiora and Garruk, and it helped push me over the edge. I think they are a nice little midrange package to have in the deck.
On the other hand, I've been pretty unimpressed with Finale. A lot of times I wished it was Primal Command...but that may be due to the fact that I didn't have any of-color silver bullets to tutor for, but rather the traditional green tutor targets. I might try running it with Devoted Druid and see where that takes me.
Hey Gruul!
That's awesome. Let me know it goes. I did find that Hornet Queen is great with Domri, Anarch of Bolas as well. Buff's all of the body's and gives you a lot of little deathtouch "bullets" for fighting. It may just be a deck playing those and the normal Core.
______
I’ve been really happy with Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner in the Walker Combo build. It makes the deck run faster and smoother. Between it, Garruk, and Kiora, Master of the Depths none of the walkers feel like “stuffed in” to make the combo work.
I did add a tiny Chord package to the combo deck because I had the room and it is good with a deck with Elvish Visionary, Eternal Witness, etc.).
I upped the Eternal Witness Count as well (removed Selkie and Tireless Tracker as they felt a little “win more” and I thought the extra Witness and Chord package gave me a small amount of disruption and the ability to play a 1-of Primeval Titan and Hornet Queen.
I was testing something similar to your previous deck, turning all the 4/X into kiora, cantrips.
Also tapped into one of your old fun cards genesis hydra
I chose to use white and splash sorin, lord of innistrad to make the 3/3s into 4/3s permanently.
was pondering whether cloudstone curio and genesis hydra be a good combination, seems like its bouncing would let you dig deeper and deeper if the game was grinding.
I think against most decks, Domri's fight ability is more relevant. The Anthem is okay, but only provides mana when you have nykthos. Domri has a bit more stable mana generation. Also Anthem isn't too hot off the top, but Domri can help you come back from a bad boardstate.
Overall he's like a 6/10, not amazing but pretty decent.
I have not played devotion decks since WOS, but been thinking a bit about it and have read your comments.
= Domri can help to set up the turn 3 Titan/ Bellower / Wurmcoil / The new Ugin? (Krasis if it's your thing). 1 drop into T2 domri plus 1 drop into 6 mana on turn 3. Turns 3 6 drops are not so easy to achieve unless you are going all in with meee cards like overgrowth, or have some of the nut draws involving arbor elf plus utopia sprawl, or bte plus nykthos, or 3 lands and 3 turn 1 mana guys, so that's another way. You probably want a few big dudes like Knight OTR or maybe strangleroot geist to fight and have other utilities. I don't think I would play cards like Steal Leaf Champion just for that, devotion is a ramp deck.
= I had not notice Kiora before but she's probably good, with Knight and utopia sprawl (and Nykthos). I don't like Fertile Ground and I don't think Kiora would justify playing some amount. I much prefer 3 drops to 4 drops as they are castable on 2 so it's possible that she should replace some amounts of Garruk Wildspeaker. Are there other untap interactions you guys have thought about?
= Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves is worth trying. It can be tutored, especially with Pact, and can destroy problematic combo creatures like Baral, Devoted Druid... Could be an elegant out to faster combo creature decks that's not too bad otherwise. Provides 2 devotion...
= Maybe Jiang Wangyu, new Nissa, or New Ajani have some applications but i have not really thought about them, and they are probably too narrow.
= I have not seen anything for my coco build. Did I missvalue Arlinn's Wolf???
2 Kiora
2 Domri
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eternal Witness
2 Domri
1 Knight OTR
1 Knight of Autumn
2 Primal Command
1 Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves
1 Primeval Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Ruric Thar
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
There probably should be some more Oaths of Nissa, but i wanted 1 more mana guys to go turn 2 domri or Kiora into mana guys. Otherwise I'll see what works and what is terrible...
I hadn’t thought if Tolismir; but that is a lot of value.
I think CoCo is a great option. Fulgence has done incredibly with it. It obviously leads to a very different build; but a great one. I’m excited to hear more about your list.
I have a ton of info from my testing I’ll Post asap.
BTW....you make me really want to play Genesis Hydra again :). Literally my favorite card ever...ha. May have to find room...I’ve been playing Chord... but maybe I can turn one of them or one of the Visionary’s into a hydra. It is good with Curio only because the Curio enters first (so the Hydra triggers it after finding it).
Obviously, Modern Horizons will likely have a substantial effect on Modern; by it is nice to get Devotion in order by the time it hits so we can add the great tools we get.
Looking forward to hear from your testing Curdbros.
I have played a few 2 men with the list i posted. Since domri and Kiora don't do anything on their own, there is probably 1 too many. I'll shave 1 Kiora since it's a bit more explosive, but domri hedges a bit better. I'll try to be a bit less linear cutting a bird as well. I'll add an acidic slime and an oath of nissa. I still like the 1 of strangleroot geist even though it feels weird. I may also try 1 good old Garruk Wildspeaker. By the way, is there any good 4 drop to tutor for? Polukranos seems good but paying 4 on next turn would probably prevent to fight. Also cards like Huntmaster or Obstinate Baloth aren't super good and especially in the theme. Any idea?
I did not have good results with the deck. I pacted for Titan and lost to a blinkmoth nexus, I pacted for Tolsimir to kill a lord and lost to random merfolks of the vial... Pact is obviously good with cards that win, or Burning Tree to cast cards that win of your hand, but if you have nothing to do and are behind, your still going to cast it and it's not easy to stabilize in 2 turns. You should not be able to use Nykthos as you have paid for the Pact in the upkeep. The Primeval Titan becomes a sort of value play oftentimes... I have been liking the bellower option since you can replicate Titan with Knight (and have 2 big blockers), or blow up an artifact/enchent with the other knight. Could search for ooze, finks, or witness if you play Primal Command as well. Also, planeswalkers feel terrible when you play against creature decks and things don't line up well (also have BTE and Nykthos and a big spell to play). How would you keep the planeswalker around against so many matchups?
It's possible that I have not built the deck correctly (or taken the correct lines) so I probably should retry a version close to the expert, Anthony, and then see if the new cards fit. Also I am not used to his sideboard so that's asking a lot of efforts and about 50 ticks to find the cards I don't have. By the way, I noticed he has Chameleon Colossus on 4 which seems the best option.
I have found it too hard to fight with Domri and not trade your dork so i'll probably cut him. He's terrible when your behind, like Kiora, so maybe that's asking you to go all in on the 1 3 6 curve (play lots of 1 drops mana guys so you still have something to do the turn you play him) if you want to keep him in the deck, and not play too many oaths of nissa since you would still not have more than 3 dev. Now the deck still has access to a "removal" with Tolsimir.
Have any of you brewed with Evolution Sage in your super friends decks? Seems like it could generate a lot of value as we usually play 8 fetches. Also works awesome with Primeval Titan and Knight of the Reliquary. It helps us grow our gatling gun Walking Ballista, and other creatures with +1 counters that we usually play like Tireless Tracker (which again also benefits from land drops).
Have any of you brewed with Evolution Sage in your super friends decks? Seems like it could generate a lot of value as we usually play 8 fetches. Also works awesome with Primeval Titan and Knight of the Reliquary. It helps us grow our gatling gun Walking Ballista, and other creatures with +1 counters that we usually play like Tireless Tracker (which again also benefits from land drops).
This is a cool idea. All work well with Genesis Wave as well.
My only fear is that it would become Win-More (as it’s best effects only occur when you already have a good board-state. It is not super effective from behind...but it has a LOT of synergy and you are right that it seems really strong in a Superfriends deck. For a while I played a Non-combo Superfriends list. This would fit well.
I think you could absolutely build a really cool deck around proliferating with just the cards you’ve pointed out and a few others (the ramp core, Nissa VOZ, Evolution Sage, Ajani, Tireless Tracker, Knight of the Reliquary, Wave, etc.) Knight could help with a land-hate pack (like Ghost Quarter, Blast Zone, etc.) and the rest could just be really fun ramp/proliferate shenanigans :).
_________
I did test some interesting stuff (continued shortly)
I chose Chord because of its synergy with cards like Elvish Visionary and Witness (I.e. bodies with etb effects that aren’t dorks) and potential sideboard options. Few findings random findings.
1. Blast Zone has been very good. Having “Catch All” removal is very powerful. It is particularly good for us because we can add counters, untap, and use it the same turn it comes down. I’ve thought about adding a 1–of Knight of the Reliquary to fetch it; but thus far I’ve had it every time I needed it (May help that I draw a lot of the deck and Wave, Oath, Kiora MOD, and Prime Time all help get to it (tutor it in Prime Time’s case).
2. I know there are less walkers than most of my decks (at only 8) and I may end up adding an additional 1-2; but I like the spread right now.
3. Even though there are only 3 cards over 4-CMC (one of each 5,6, and 7); the deck still utilized the tons of mana via sinks and loops. Cloudstone Curio loops every ETB card (and of course creates infinite mana/card draw/tokens with the walkers)...and Chord/Witness can loop when needed...and of Course Wave is the big mana-sink. So it still functions as/plays like a ramp deck.
4. I do need to get lightning fast at clicks 😓. In paper it’s super easy...but I want to start playing this online (the only way to get a deck out there is to 5-0 several times) and it definitely is more time consuming online.
I may need to get one more “finishing” piece in the main for online as well. Right now it’s essentially draw out the deck, destroy their board (via Acidic Slime and Blast Zone for any problem creatures) then putting a million tokens on the board to overrun the “next turn”. I say “next turn” as they technically get another turn...there is just nothing they can do with an empty (or near empty board) and no mana.
I used to have other ways to win same turn including Xenagos haste creatures, Walking Ballista, and even Karn’s Bastion to overrun over and over for any creatures without summoning sickness (as Kiora can even untap dorks used)...but I wanted to use only the cards (a) that we’re absolutely necessary to the deck and (b) led to consistent, fast development of the combo while also having just enough power and disruption to win when/if plan A is disrupted. Playing a card just to win “same turn” when I’ve never not won once the combo was assembled seems silly.
______
For those new to the combo...below is a little “explainer”
Because of the wording of Cloudstone Curio; any two Planeswalkers that can generate mana can create infinite mana if the sum of the two abilities will create more mana than the total casting costs of the walkers...
What this means is that if Garruk untaps two lands that can create 5-mana when tapped, and Kiora BB untaps a single land that generates three mana...than together they can “generate” 8-mana...but their combined casting costs are only 7-mana...so each “loop” nets you one mana. From there you can infinitely utilize any other Walker ability, ETB effect, etc.
Obviously Nykthos allows for this quite easily. You can pull of the combo with Utopia Sprawls, but 95% of the time you’ll do the combo with Nykthos.
The important aspect of the deck is that all of the combo pieces (Walkers, Nykthos, Curio) are all good in the deck outside of the combo. Curio is the only card in the deck that can be a “dead draw” in some cases...but fortunately we play so many permanents with ETB effects that it is often a great card without the combo.
Please Randrock help me to modify (improve) my judgment so that I can beat my handsome brother who is pretty good in his village
Agreed. This was the point I was trying to get across in my list (that my list plays a different access then the more "traditional" devotion lists...its more about overwhelming and getting to the combo). Even then, I still only play it out of the board against the decks it shines against...and even after all of this; there may still be better board options
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Yeah...this was one of the tougher items we’ve dealt with in the past. There are Tooth and Nail decks that only play 1-2 copies of Nykthos (and you technically could play T&N without Nykthos.
The community decided at the time to keep them within the same forum (based partially due to the fact that most successful T&N decks did play Nykthos) and based on the many similarities between the decks.
I haven’t done a good enough job on the Primer separating them and describing each well. I hope to have some time this Sunday to improve upon it and update the dates sections.
_____
I feel like Domri, Anarch of Bolas should be useful for some of my lists (and possibly other Devotion lists to be honest). We tend to go a little wide, can use the mana he generates, and have creatures big enough to make his "fight" worth it.
I think Domri and Kiora may end up being the cards that work in Devotion (for different decks for different reasons). What are others thoughts?
______
** EDIT **
I got rid of the decklist(s) I am testing. I feel it is more important to provide the interactions/information I find first...and then provide a list once it is more "concrete" (rather than multiple lists in a row).
Thus far I have found:
1. Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner is good with Craterhoof as she can untap a dork used to cast him and still attack with it.
2. The combination of Kiora, Domri, and Garruk can be strong just by themselves (as Garruk creates a 4/3 token due to Domri's buff...which in turn draws a card due to Kiora's static ability. Obviously, this will rarely happen (and they'd have to be in the same deck....) but it did come up so I thought I should post it.
I've been playing Chord of Calling instead of Finale (due to my use of Visionary and Selkie) but will also make notes as to how Finale would have worked in its place.
1. Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner is good with Knight of the Reliquary as she can untap it two utilize its ability twice. I've been trying out a deck with both Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner and Kiora, Master of the Depths to get a lot of utility out of the "untap" ability. I do think there are likely some interesting artifact untap shenanigans we haven't found yet as well.
2. Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner is good with Craterhoof as she can untap a dork used to cast him and still attack with it.
3. The combination of Kiora, Domri, and Garruk can be strong just by themselves (as Garruk creates a 4/3 token due to Domri's buff...which in turn draws a card due to Kiora's static ability. Obviously, this won’t happen all the time (and they'd have to be in the same deck....) but it did come up so I thought I should post it. They seem to work really well together
4. Blast Zone is not bad with Knight of the Reliquary. It does put a strain on the mana base; but having removal you can tutor for has got me out of a few sticky situations.
I do think Chord is likely in a good place. I stopped playing Chord when tutor hate was everywhere...but it has died down quite a bit. Chord is a great choice for non-green tutors and for "go wide" decks like you are talking about. Pact is faster in Devotion decks in general...but there are certainly decks where Chord is preferable.
I've been running a deck with Kiora, Garruk, and Domri, and I've been pleasantly surprised by the utility they provide. Domri pumping up all the dorks makes him an actual threat, and having the ability to fight creatures is very relevant. The buff he provides to beasts is also useful...I was able to make 2 beasts and draw 2 cards in a stalled boardstate with Kiora and Garruk, and it helped push me over the edge. I think they are a nice little midrange package to have in the deck.
On the other hand, I've been pretty unimpressed with Finale. A lot of times I wished it was Primal Command...but that may be due to the fact that I didn't have any of-color silver bullets to tutor for, but rather the traditional green tutor targets. I might try running it with Devoted Druid and see where that takes me.
Hey Gruul!
That's awesome. Let me know it goes. I did find that Hornet Queen is great with Domri, Anarch of Bolas as well. Buff's all of the body's and gives you a lot of little deathtouch "bullets" for fighting. It may just be a deck playing those and the normal Core.
______
I’ve been really happy with Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner in the Walker Combo build. It makes the deck run faster and smoother. Between it, Garruk, and Kiora, Master of the Depths none of the walkers feel like “stuffed in” to make the combo work.
I did add a tiny Chord package to the combo deck because I had the room and it is good with a deck with Elvish Visionary, Eternal Witness, etc.).
I upped the Eternal Witness Count as well (removed Selkie and Tireless Tracker as they felt a little “win more” and I thought the extra Witness and Chord package gave me a small amount of disruption and the ability to play a 1-of Primeval Titan and Hornet Queen.
I was testing something similar to your previous deck, turning all the 4/X into kiora, cantrips.
Also tapped into one of your old fun cards genesis hydra
I chose to use white and splash sorin, lord of innistrad to make the 3/3s into 4/3s permanently.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x grim flayer (probably should just be tarmogoyf/steelleaf paladin but wanted the dig ability)
2x eternal witness
1x emrakul, the promised end
4x genesis hydra
1x walking balista
3x oath of nissa
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x mishra's bauble
3x assassin's trophy
3x Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x garruk, primal hunter
2x sorin, lord of innistrad
20 land
Sideboard has 4 obstinate baloth
was pondering whether cloudstone curio and genesis hydra be a good combination, seems like its bouncing would let you dig deeper and deeper if the game was grinding.
I think against most decks, Domri's fight ability is more relevant. The Anthem is okay, but only provides mana when you have nykthos. Domri has a bit more stable mana generation. Also Anthem isn't too hot off the top, but Domri can help you come back from a bad boardstate.
Overall he's like a 6/10, not amazing but pretty decent.
= Domri can help to set up the turn 3 Titan/ Bellower / Wurmcoil / The new Ugin? (Krasis if it's your thing). 1 drop into T2 domri plus 1 drop into 6 mana on turn 3. Turns 3 6 drops are not so easy to achieve unless you are going all in with meee cards like overgrowth, or have some of the nut draws involving arbor elf plus utopia sprawl, or bte plus nykthos, or 3 lands and 3 turn 1 mana guys, so that's another way. You probably want a few big dudes like Knight OTR or maybe strangleroot geist to fight and have other utilities. I don't think I would play cards like Steal Leaf Champion just for that, devotion is a ramp deck.
= I had not notice Kiora before but she's probably good, with Knight and utopia sprawl (and Nykthos). I don't like Fertile Ground and I don't think Kiora would justify playing some amount. I much prefer 3 drops to 4 drops as they are castable on 2 so it's possible that she should replace some amounts of Garruk Wildspeaker. Are there other untap interactions you guys have thought about?
= Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves is worth trying. It can be tutored, especially with Pact, and can destroy problematic combo creatures like Baral, Devoted Druid... Could be an elegant out to faster combo creature decks that's not too bad otherwise. Provides 2 devotion...
= Maybe Jiang Wangyu, new Nissa, or New Ajani have some applications but i have not really thought about them, and they are probably too narrow.
= I have not seen anything for my coco build. Did I missvalue Arlinn's Wolf???
21 lands
8 fetches
2 G/W
2 R/G
4 nykthos
1 Kessig
4 Forest
4 Summoner's pact
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Oath of nissa
4 Burning Tree
1 Strangleroot geist
2 Kiora
2 Domri
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eternal Witness
2 Domri
1 Knight OTR
1 Knight of Autumn
2 Primal Command
1 Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves
1 Primeval Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Ruric Thar
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
There probably should be some more Oaths of Nissa, but i wanted 1 more mana guys to go turn 2 domri or Kiora into mana guys. Otherwise I'll see what works and what is terrible...
I think CoCo is a great option. Fulgence has done incredibly with it. It obviously leads to a very different build; but a great one. I’m excited to hear more about your list.
I have a ton of info from my testing I’ll Post asap.
BTW....you make me really want to play Genesis Hydra again :). Literally my favorite card ever...ha. May have to find room...I’ve been playing Chord... but maybe I can turn one of them or one of the Visionary’s into a hydra. It is good with Curio only because the Curio enters first (so the Hydra triggers it after finding it).
Obviously, Modern Horizons will likely have a substantial effect on Modern; by it is nice to get Devotion in order by the time it hits so we can add the great tools we get.
I have played a few 2 men with the list i posted. Since domri and Kiora don't do anything on their own, there is probably 1 too many. I'll shave 1 Kiora since it's a bit more explosive, but domri hedges a bit better. I'll try to be a bit less linear cutting a bird as well. I'll add an acidic slime and an oath of nissa. I still like the 1 of strangleroot geist even though it feels weird. I may also try 1 good old Garruk Wildspeaker. By the way, is there any good 4 drop to tutor for? Polukranos seems good but paying 4 on next turn would probably prevent to fight. Also cards like Huntmaster or Obstinate Baloth aren't super good and especially in the theme. Any idea?
It's possible that I have not built the deck correctly (or taken the correct lines) so I probably should retry a version close to the expert, Anthony, and then see if the new cards fit. Also I am not used to his sideboard so that's asking a lot of efforts
I have found it too hard to fight with Domri and not trade your dork so i'll probably cut him. He's terrible when your behind, like Kiora, so maybe that's asking you to go all in on the 1 3 6 curve (play lots of 1 drops mana guys so you still have something to do the turn you play him) if you want to keep him in the deck, and not play too many oaths of nissa since you would still not have more than 3 dev. Now the deck still has access to a "removal" with Tolsimir.
Restore Balance
Green Devotion
Restore Balance
Green Devotion
This is a cool idea. All work well with Genesis Wave as well.
My only fear is that it would become Win-More (as it’s best effects only occur when you already have a good board-state. It is not super effective from behind...but it has a LOT of synergy and you are right that it seems really strong in a Superfriends deck. For a while I played a Non-combo Superfriends list. This would fit well.
I think you could absolutely build a really cool deck around proliferating with just the cards you’ve pointed out and a few others (the ramp core, Nissa VOZ, Evolution Sage, Ajani, Tireless Tracker, Knight of the Reliquary, Wave, etc.) Knight could help with a land-hate pack (like Ghost Quarter, Blast Zone, etc.) and the rest could just be really fun ramp/proliferate shenanigans :).
_________
I did test some interesting stuff (continued shortly)
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Eternal Witness
1x Acidic Slime
1x Primeval Titan
1x Hornet Queen
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Oath of Nissa
1x Abundant Growth
2x Cloudstone Curio
Planeswalker (8)
3x Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Kiora, Master of the Depths
4x Genesis Wave
2x Chord of Calling
Lands
8x Green Fetch
6x Forest
1x Breeding Pool
1x Temple Garden
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Blast Zone
I chose Chord because of its synergy with cards like Elvish Visionary and Witness (I.e. bodies with etb effects that aren’t dorks) and potential sideboard options. Few findings random findings.
1. Blast Zone has been very good. Having “Catch All” removal is very powerful. It is particularly good for us because we can add counters, untap, and use it the same turn it comes down. I’ve thought about adding a 1–of Knight of the Reliquary to fetch it; but thus far I’ve had it every time I needed it (May help that I draw a lot of the deck and Wave, Oath, Kiora MOD, and Prime Time all help get to it (tutor it in Prime Time’s case).
2. I know there are less walkers than most of my decks (at only 8) and I may end up adding an additional 1-2; but I like the spread right now.
3. Even though there are only 3 cards over 4-CMC (one of each 5,6, and 7); the deck still utilized the tons of mana via sinks and loops. Cloudstone Curio loops every ETB card (and of course creates infinite mana/card draw/tokens with the walkers)...and Chord/Witness can loop when needed...and of Course Wave is the big mana-sink. So it still functions as/plays like a ramp deck.
4. I do need to get lightning fast at clicks 😓. In paper it’s super easy...but I want to start playing this online (the only way to get a deck out there is to 5-0 several times) and it definitely is more time consuming online.
I may need to get one more “finishing” piece in the main for online as well. Right now it’s essentially draw out the deck, destroy their board (via Acidic Slime and Blast Zone for any problem creatures) then putting a million tokens on the board to overrun the “next turn”. I say “next turn” as they technically get another turn...there is just nothing they can do with an empty (or near empty board) and no mana.
I used to have other ways to win same turn including Xenagos haste creatures, Walking Ballista, and even Karn’s Bastion to overrun over and over for any creatures without summoning sickness (as Kiora can even untap dorks used)...but I wanted to use only the cards (a) that we’re absolutely necessary to the deck and (b) led to consistent, fast development of the combo while also having just enough power and disruption to win when/if plan A is disrupted. Playing a card just to win “same turn” when I’ve never not won once the combo was assembled seems silly.
______
For those new to the combo...below is a little “explainer”
Because of the wording of Cloudstone Curio; any two Planeswalkers that can generate mana can create infinite mana if the sum of the two abilities will create more mana than the total casting costs of the walkers...
What this means is that if Garruk untaps two lands that can create 5-mana when tapped, and Kiora BB untaps a single land that generates three mana...than together they can “generate” 8-mana...but their combined casting costs are only 7-mana...so each “loop” nets you one mana. From there you can infinitely utilize any other Walker ability, ETB effect, etc.
Obviously Nykthos allows for this quite easily. You can pull of the combo with Utopia Sprawls, but 95% of the time you’ll do the combo with Nykthos.
The important aspect of the deck is that all of the combo pieces (Walkers, Nykthos, Curio) are all good in the deck outside of the combo. Curio is the only card in the deck that can be a “dead draw” in some cases...but fortunately we play so many permanents with ETB effects that it is often a great card without the combo.