As far as Beast Within, I have a bit of a policy that no deck I play will ever have more than 2x in my 75, and no more than 1x in my main. It's just not a card you want multiples of unless you're playing against a combo deck or a deck that somehow spits out fatties faster than you can. I do run 1x in my mainboard currently, and have become pretty skilled at knowing when I can use it without it ever being a downside to me. But playing around more than 2 is just cumbersome, and there are other removal options that are far safer, if a bit less effective (Garruk Relentless is another 1x in my main and I can't speak highly enough of him, Lignify I have not tried yet, but I think that unless you're in a a meta with a lot of Abrupt Decay around, its a solid creature removal for us that increases devotion.)
Land Hate has a special place in my heart, and as a mono-green devotee, I have played the Mono Green Control deck to some extent. In order to maintain the effectiveness of the control aspect I always shied away from moving too far into the Green Devotion realm with it, but I noticed many parallels in play style. I like the 4x of Primal Command, and I really gotta insist that you make room for at least 3x Eternal Witness in your main as well. That soft lock is absolutely back breaking. The way I used to run it was (ideally, assuming ideal land drops and draws) T1 Arbor elf > T2 Utopia Sprawl, Mwunvoli Acid-Moss > T3 Primal Command (topdeck shockland/tapland/manland, tutor up Eternal Witness, loop) I like your inclusion of Acidic Slime and World Breaker. I would go -1 Scooze +1 Slime, -3 Beast Within +3 Mwonvuli Acidmoss (or Bramblecrush), -1 Terrastrodon +1 Worldbreaker. I'm not a huge fan of Terrastrodon, because unless you blow up one of your own permanents, the 3 tokens you're giving them just trade with Terrastrodon, plus, you've already got an 8 drop creature, who should be ending the game for you.
I played at a local tournament today, and to my surprise, Humans was actually a really, really close matchup. I punted two games, one where plussing my Garruk Relentless for a wolf would have given my craterhoof drop +4 damage for the win, and the other where I forgot about a Summoner's Pact upkeep trigger. But in both cases, I had the game that turn, and if it wasn't for my mistakes, I would have beaten THE T1 deck with green devotion Of note, Bonfire of the Damned was an amazing card that I must insist you all try out as a 2x in the side against aggro. We have the mana to make it work, even without its miracle cost, and the likelyhood of the opponent recovering from that is very, very low. I also run 1x Banefire against control.
A few things I'd like to try next are:
A Vorapede in the 5 slot, as there isn't a whole lot of Paths in my meta. Thragtusk is what I currently run but Vorapede is just so fun, and that GGG devotion.
2-4x Tireless Tracker. Wistful selkies might have their place in...some list, but I just can't see using them over TT. The card advantage can't be beat: if you play and crack a fetch after Tracker resolves, thats two (future) card draws right off the bat, whereas Selkie only gives you one. They might be more of a magnet for removal, but if I get two clues out of the deal, I'm ok with it. If I notice that I'm getting too hurt by having my TT removed too often, I might bring in some split of Kitchen Finks.
I'm currently running 3x Strangleroot and a scooze in favor of BTE and they're been great. The times where I could have potentially gone off with BTE have been few and far between, and have not outweighed the early game beats, ability to grind out, the sticky devotion, free blocks, the hasty creatures that can actually swing the same turn Craterhoof comes down, and the topdeck value.
I have noticed that without BTE, the game is a bit slower, but I think with TT and maybe going -1 Wildspeaker for 2x mainboard chameleon colossus, the ability to grind out will pay off more than highly variance based BTE combos.
Also, on Jadelight, I absolutely agree that GGG is a bit tough for us to consistently play that early in the game, and that Jadelight is definitely in the list over Selkie for me as well. I'm just not sure I'd take Jadelight over Trackers at this point. But I suppose my list is a bit light on green pips and I might need to find a way to get some more early game devotion in there, so maybe a split of courser/jadelight/tracker 2/2/2? I'd probably take out Eternal Witness all together for that, as I've moved away from Primal Command completely anyways.
I'll leave you all on a quick playstyle note: Don't drop your Nykthos until you're ready to use it, which means that you have 4 or more pips out, or you really need your 3 drop and Nykthos is your only other land, or you need to convert colorless into green (at least 3 green pips out). Nykthos doesn't start generating more mana than a normal land until you have at least 4 pips out, so its advantageous to keep your opponent guessing as to what your deck's plan even is until its too late. Many games have been won for me by just following this one rule, because as soon as you drop Nykthos, it dawns on your opponent...oh, he's actually got X mana right now...oh, he can +Garruk for twice that...oh, if I kill that creature/Garruk, he's only got Y.
If you drop it too early and lose anyways, and your opponent has land-hate in the sideboard...it feels extra bad next game.
Going to test my Simic deck with the Arcane Adaptation and Turntimber Ranger combo tonight against a couple of friends. Will probably test it against Naya Darwin's Toolbox/Combo, Goblins, D&T and a weird infinite artifact combo (not KCI) a friend is testing. Sideboard is currently all over the place and I'm especially testing to see which win-con stacks up the best next to the Arcane Ranger combo. Also trying out Nissa, Steward of Elements for the digging next to Genesis Hydra (yes, I know they are a nonbo). Any suggestions are of course welcome!
@Rolfgang
I'm personally of the opinion that if you're playing an infinite combo in a deck, you want to have consistent ways to tutor up both elements, or to consistently draw them. Having 2-of's of a combo seems like a half measure to me, and dilutes an already solid mainboard devotion plan. I would personally go harder on the combo if you want to make it work. That being said, I have never played it, so take it with a grain of salt. Let us know how it goes!
BBE into Steel Leaf and Rhonas are great. Nylea and Rhonas make great mana dumps for large amounts of mana... also trample pairs very nicely with Colossus and Polukranos. GGG makes it easier to turn Nylea on as well. Overall took the curve down to better prepare for Damping Sphere.
its not a devotion deck, but by its design its not that far off. infact devotion carts might make it more consistent at its top end when trying to cast the fatties instead of cremating them for combo damage.
@Rolfgang
I'm personally of the opinion that if you're playing an infinite combo in a deck, you want to have consistent ways to tutor up both elements, or to consistently draw them. Having 2-of's of a combo seems like a half measure to me, and dilutes an already solid mainboard devotion plan. I would personally go harder on the combo if you want to make it work. That being said, I have never played it, so take it with a grain of salt. Let us know how it goes!
I was also thinking that at first, because my previous build of the deck went all-in on the combo and didn't bother with Primeval Titan as an alternative win-con. The problem however with the Arcane Turntimber Combo is that it's incredibly easy to disrupt for the opponent with removal. Just a single bolt, path or other removal that is not Fatal Push kills the Turntimber while the trigger is on the stack and I'm left with just a single wolf. And between Genesis Hydra, Primal Command and Oath of Nissa (and Eternal Witness when things go wrong), there is lots of tools to find the combo. That said, Arcane Adaptation is easier to find with Genesis Hydra, but can't be found with Primal Command or Oath of Nissa, so I'm going bumping that card to a 3-off.
Last night I didn't had any trouble finding the combo, but there was also a lot of luck involved sometimes, i.e. my first Arcane Adaptation got stolen with a Kitesail Freebooter when I could have played in the following turn, but then I topdecked the second Arcane Adaptation. And the Primeval Titans also did loads of work, even after the infinite combo got off. During a game my opponent sweeped the board with Pyroclasm and destroyed my Arcane Adaptation, leaving me with only a huge Ranger without trample and him with sufficient blockers. But playing Titan and finding Kessig Wolfrun maybe me swing for a nice overkill the following turn and giving him no chance to find an answer.
By the way, I'm loving the look of that Big Stompy deck.
I think that for combos, there are two approaches. One is to treat it as a combo-deck: go heavy on the tutoring, full playsets of all combo elements, and make that your primary game plan. The second is to have an incidental combo: both cards are useful on their own but synergize well if you get lucky; in this case the combo is the secondary plan. Counters-Company decks fall in the first bin.
I tend to play Devotion as a member of the second bin. My sole exception is the single copy of Vizier of Remedies I throw in my Eternal-Command builds. These builds benefit from Devoted Druid anyway to provide more turn-3 Titan or Command possibilities, and having a Vizier to tutor up and go infinite is just a nice option when available. At the worst, it's a body for a later overrun win.
That's also the reason why I'm not sure to add the third copy of Arcane Adaptation. Turntimber is still a 5 mana 3/3 + 2/2, not extremely strong, but multiple bodies that can profit from Garruk's Ultimate.
Adaptation however is ONLY a combo piece. On it's own and with other cards it does nothing. Hell, it doesn't even add devotion. But when they both are on the field it's game-winning. The nice thing about the combo is also that you don't need the Adaptation before the Ranger, as any other creature will trigger it. So it's tricky to decide what's the correct number is. But that's what playtesting is for haha.
For those of you running Summoner's Pact, I learned a trick against discard yesterday. If your opponent is playing Liliana or other discard effects, side in Obstinate Baloth. When your opponent plays/activates a discard effect, play summoners pact in response, pull out obstinate baloth, and discard it to the battlefield. The look on their face is even better if they skipped over the Pact on their T1 Thoughtseize.
Speaking of which, you can also do this in response to a mid-game Inquisition/Thoughtseize if you're pretty certain the pact is what they'll take, just to make your hand a bit more discard proof. Just don't do what I so often do, forget the part where its a pact that requires payment on your upkeep >_<
One of the upsides of playing Pact over P.Command.
A lot of discussion going on since I've been away the last few days!
Couple things that caught my eye -
I dig the discord idea. I check here throughout the day, so it's nice to have a more dynamic place to discuss
I also believe that a CMC-breakdown would be a great addition to the primer. There are so many options of Devotion, it would certainly help newer players narrow in on the most important cards.
@Curdbros I dig your inclusion of BBE! I know it's a nonbo with certain cards, but sometimes you have to embrace the variance. Also, is there a reason for the Ballistas over something like Karn? I remember your earlier curio builds used him as an alternate win condition. Does Ballista fill a similar infinite mana dump role? (Also, it's Gruul, like in Gruul Ragebeast :P)
It is. It is a way to spend infinite mana and a win-con "sink" that does not require an additional turn. It is also a great way to win through certain hate (Ensnaring Bridge, etc.) as I run a TON of artifacts and hate cards in the board. It's also just a great card in multiple types of Devotion decks. Gives us means of killing small creatures early and larger creatures late and gives us the potential for direct damage. It has a smaller synergy in the Simic deck as well as it is an artifact (which counts for Karn's tokens). It is not a huge deal; but having a Ballista and Curio on board makes his tokens 3/3's to start...
The deck still runs one "Big" Karn and three Little ones The truth is generally once you have the combo; you have a lot of different ways to win. A few include:
1. Use Abundant Growth, Elvish Visionary, or Coiling Oracle (or Oath if in the deck) to draw out the deck and kill however you like. You can also use Karn and Nissa to draw out the deck (although nissa can only draw creatures and lands...you can then use a creature like Visionary or Oracle to draw out the deck). Karn can also get any card because even if a Karn leaves play, the exiled cards still remain in exile with Silver counters on them to be "grabbed" by later/new Karns.)
2. Use Nissa SOE to turn all lands into 5/5 flying haste creatures (can use Nissa's other abilities or CoilingOracle to put more lands on board if need be).
3. Pour infinite mana into Walking Ballista
4. Use Karn Liberated to exile the opponents hand and board.
5. Use Acidic Slime to destroy the opponent's lands (all)
6. In the Gruull version you can simply make infinite 2/2 haste Satyrs and attack same turn; but both can make infinite tokens of many types.
Yeah...BBE is crazy good (especially when you can bounce him and re-play him) I currently prefer the Simic version (because it digs/draws better); but in honesty I don't know which is "better".
Thanks for the heads up on mispelling of Gruul. I probably won't go back and fix it; but will make sure it is correct in the future.
jund itself drives me crazy, in my recent round of losing too it, the guy was using the -2 ability to use and abuse the same bloodbraid elf for a lot of dig/gas.
considering how creature centric we tend to be I'm considering splash for her.
That's actually a really interesting idea. I could totally see a Jund version of Walker deck or even just Golgari (as we have plenty of awesome creatures to use)...I am a BIG fan of the Vraska, Relic Seeker (it is a really powerful card)...and Liliana, the Last Hope is actually a really interesting idea...she is early tiny creature removal, and her -2 is really good not only just because we play a lot of creatures; but likely performs well with Eternal Witness and to a lesser extent Nissa, Vital Force.
Super interesting idea. I haven't tried it yet...but I could totally see a Golgari Walker deck being strong (as you would have access to both Liliana TLH and Vraska RS as well as a ton of great sideboard options).
Going to test my Simic deck with the Arcane Adaptation and Turntimber Ranger combo tonight against a couple of friends. Will probably test it against Naya Darwin's Toolbox/Combo, Goblins, D&T and a weird infinite artifact combo (not KCI) a friend is testing. Sideboard is currently all over the place and I'm especially testing to see which win-con stacks up the best next to the Arcane Ranger combo. Also trying out Nissa, Steward of Elements for the digging next to Genesis Hydra (yes, I know they are a nonbo). Any suggestions are of course welcome!
Really neat list! I love the idea of putting a combo in a Devotion deck where possible (the Devoted Druid/Vizier combo is great, I think the Madcap Expirement combo is a viable option for us, the Freed From the Real combo with both Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl and/or Bloom Tender is cool, etc.)...
I don't think you would be wrong to play Genesis Hydra and Nissa, Steward of Elements. I would actually advise it. While they don't work well together in a few instances...it is extremely rare that this will come up (and both are great ways to get to your combo pieces). Little nombos are not a big deal when both cards are great additions to the overall deck plan. I've played both and loved when I scry'd with Nissa and knew I was going to have a Hydra the next turn
MirageJenius also played this combo for a bit; so they would be a great source of discussion as well.
BBE into Steel Leaf and Rhonas are great. Nylea and Rhonas make great mana dumps for large amounts of mana... also trample pairs very nicely with Colossus and Polukranos. GGG makes it easier to turn Nylea on as well. Overall took the curve down to better prepare for Damping Sphere.
This looks really strong. Doesn't NEED Devotion, but actually takes advantage of it...great list. With the right board I think this is a truly viable deck.
Does anyone know a streamer who plays Green Devo? Or a regular tournament goer? I'm losing a lot and honestly its starting to be frustrating. I learn by watching someone else, or having someone coach me on my options...losing over and over hasn't really been a great way to learn.
That's the curse of Devotion, it has no mainstream following Anthony Skyprzyk has the most recent tournament placements, and a few Devotion decks have shown up in the last few MTGO Competitive League result lists. Ross Merriam has played a couple versions of Devotion on StarCityGames as well.
jund itself drives me crazy, in my recent round of losing too it, the guy was using the -2 ability to use and abuse the same bloodbraid elf for a lot of dig/gas.
considering how creature centric we tend to be I'm considering splash for her.
That's actually a really interesting idea. I could totally see a Jund version of Walker deck or even just Golgari (as we have plenty of awesome creatures to use)...I am a BIG fan of the Vraska, Relic Seeker (it is a really powerful card)...and Liliana, the Last Hope is actually a really interesting idea...she is early tiny creature removal, and her -2 is really good not only just because we play a lot of creatures; but likely performs well with Eternal Witness and to a lesser extent Nissa, Vital Force.
Super interesting idea. I haven't tried it yet...but I could totally see a Golgari Walker deck being strong (as you would have access to both Liliana TLH and Vraska RS as well as a ton of great sideboard options).
the way i look at it liliana, the last hope for this deck she is eternal witness 5+ or 5-8. or you could say she is "eternal witness on a stick" every couple turns. considering we have a lot of ETB abilities more eternal witness for creature effects might be a good thing. On top of that milling the two cards is filter.
on top of that we don't have to pay 3 to get a walking ballista back to our hand in the turns following the turn we played her which is an improvement over having to cast eternal witness for a walking ballista in the same turn you want to cast it.
In a metagame with plenty of spot removal and auto loss to board wipe and handkill or land D solutions, Winning with Devotion requires keeping a fast opening hand. A slow hand equals an autoloss, Modern wins are a 4 turn clock for most decks. They either lock out your board with spot removal or counter magic or they out aggro or out combo you. If you tweak for explosive curves and know how the deck does its job you will adjust according to Spike play at best.
Alex goes all in for his two Nykthos drops then bomb out with X mana. He has spike cards like Blood Moon and Abrade, so you have to consider that aspect of what kind of win condition you want. Disrupt an opponent's early game to ensue the more explosive mana flood of Devotion to grind out your win.
You have to deal with the opponent's set up in the first three to four turns. Whether you get an early Primal Command and Eternal Witness lock or you use Aspect of Hydra and hasty hits with Strangleroot Geist and Boggart Ram Gang against slower decks.
The Turntimber Ranger and Arcane Adaptation build is extremely vulnerable to handkill and spot removal. So if it is your only win con, it's a casual Modern win con that won't get you anywhere in Spike tournament environments. BUT. You can build a deck around this combo as secondary win condition, and you might include synergy cards like one Reaoer King, Summoning Trap, Xenagod and Genesis Hydra, and Temur Sabertooth. The goal for the combo is to let it through so you will need stuff like Prowling Serpopard to avoid countermagic when casting the 5cmc Ranger, and Summoning Trap to get a second Ranger inside the deck out if the first gets countered.
Building around the combo still involves getting devotion early and running early blockers. I tried to use Mirrorweave in the Ranger Build with Arcane Adaptation to use the Blue part to make my Sylvan Caryatids and Overgrown Battlements into Primalcrux and swing for 60 plus if the opponent does tap out. I also put in Urabrask and Privileged Position to protect the combo pieces once they were in play. As it stands the Adaptation with Ranger is way too slow for Valakut Scapeshift, Skred, Death Shadow, and even Jeskai Control or Jund and I played the deck once in a tournament environment and losing spectacularly.
If you can stall an opponent's board to set up the combo via a Genesis Wave situation with devotion at 7 to 8 maybe you can insert the pieces as playsets inside a traditional Genesis Wave deck and create overkill with Reaper King, naming the second Adaptation that hits the board as Scarecrows. But that's 9 cards inside a 39 card deck, so that means you need a 15 card devotion dork suite and 2 or 3 Genesis Wave plus Genesis Hydra and Xenagod as other options. The only way to win with the Adaptation-Ranger combo is to stall them out and hit the combo. I also used the crap card Leyline of Sanctity and used somebody's suggestion of Trostani Selesnya Voice for infinite life additional security and you get it into play during the first land drop but it is absolutely crap when top decked. It makes Primalcrux extra fat in the butt too if you run it. Prowling Serpopard is a must in the Adaptation-Ranger combo. You can put one or two Privileged Position too. So you see it is way too slow but it is grindy when you can last several land drops or actually use land ramp. My build worked off Mana Walls for fast ramp with Overgrown Battlement and Axebane Guardian, with opponent baffled what the heck my deck was doing, but I always got overwhelmed by Goblins or a fat Tarmogoyf and spot removal or a Supreme Verdict clearing board. It is a fun build for casual Modern but absolutely horrendous against a Spike tournament environment.
Humans and Hatebear kill you outright. I've never used Walking Ballista yet but maybe that might turn the tide.
Enjoy your Devotion Builds guys. But whatever you use, know how the meta works. Early explosive turns wins it nicely, If you ever play slow hands, it's an autoloss. Need to have a one CMC and curve to 5 devotion by turn 3 or have 5 mana available by turn two, any slower than that turns games into what CurdBros and other guys here call grindout games, and spot removal and board wipe usually win it for them unless you have the Primal Command Witness build to recover board position.
He makes some awesome comebacks. He has an interesting take on the deck, focusing on the card advantage/toolbox aspect, running Primals and Woodland Bellower with Jadelight and Trackers. It runs pretty decently.
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Land Hate has a special place in my heart, and as a mono-green devotee, I have played the Mono Green Control deck to some extent. In order to maintain the effectiveness of the control aspect I always shied away from moving too far into the Green Devotion realm with it, but I noticed many parallels in play style. I like the 4x of Primal Command, and I really gotta insist that you make room for at least 3x Eternal Witness in your main as well. That soft lock is absolutely back breaking. The way I used to run it was (ideally, assuming ideal land drops and draws) T1 Arbor elf > T2 Utopia Sprawl, Mwunvoli Acid-Moss > T3 Primal Command (topdeck shockland/tapland/manland, tutor up Eternal Witness, loop) I like your inclusion of Acidic Slime and World Breaker. I would go -1 Scooze +1 Slime, -3 Beast Within +3 Mwonvuli Acidmoss (or Bramblecrush), -1 Terrastrodon +1 Worldbreaker. I'm not a huge fan of Terrastrodon, because unless you blow up one of your own permanents, the 3 tokens you're giving them just trade with Terrastrodon, plus, you've already got an 8 drop creature, who should be ending the game for you.
I played at a local tournament today, and to my surprise, Humans was actually a really, really close matchup. I punted two games, one where plussing my Garruk Relentless for a wolf would have given my craterhoof drop +4 damage for the win, and the other where I forgot about a Summoner's Pact upkeep trigger. But in both cases, I had the game that turn, and if it wasn't for my mistakes, I would have beaten THE T1 deck with green devotion Of note, Bonfire of the Damned was an amazing card that I must insist you all try out as a 2x in the side against aggro. We have the mana to make it work, even without its miracle cost, and the likelyhood of the opponent recovering from that is very, very low. I also run 1x Banefire against control.
A few things I'd like to try next are:
A Vorapede in the 5 slot, as there isn't a whole lot of Paths in my meta. Thragtusk is what I currently run but Vorapede is just so fun, and that GGG devotion.
2-4x Tireless Tracker. Wistful selkies might have their place in...some list, but I just can't see using them over TT. The card advantage can't be beat: if you play and crack a fetch after Tracker resolves, thats two (future) card draws right off the bat, whereas Selkie only gives you one. They might be more of a magnet for removal, but if I get two clues out of the deal, I'm ok with it. If I notice that I'm getting too hurt by having my TT removed too often, I might bring in some split of Kitchen Finks.
I'm currently running 3x Strangleroot and a scooze in favor of BTE and they're been great. The times where I could have potentially gone off with BTE have been few and far between, and have not outweighed the early game beats, ability to grind out, the sticky devotion, free blocks, the hasty creatures that can actually swing the same turn Craterhoof comes down, and the topdeck value.
I have noticed that without BTE, the game is a bit slower, but I think with TT and maybe going -1 Wildspeaker for 2x mainboard chameleon colossus, the ability to grind out will pay off more than highly variance based BTE combos.
Also, on Jadelight, I absolutely agree that GGG is a bit tough for us to consistently play that early in the game, and that Jadelight is definitely in the list over Selkie for me as well. I'm just not sure I'd take Jadelight over Trackers at this point. But I suppose my list is a bit light on green pips and I might need to find a way to get some more early game devotion in there, so maybe a split of courser/jadelight/tracker 2/2/2? I'd probably take out Eternal Witness all together for that, as I've moved away from Primal Command completely anyways.
I'll leave you all on a quick playstyle note: Don't drop your Nykthos until you're ready to use it, which means that you have 4 or more pips out, or you really need your 3 drop and Nykthos is your only other land, or you need to convert colorless into green (at least 3 green pips out). Nykthos doesn't start generating more mana than a normal land until you have at least 4 pips out, so its advantageous to keep your opponent guessing as to what your deck's plan even is until its too late. Many games have been won for me by just following this one rule, because as soon as you drop Nykthos, it dawns on your opponent...oh, he's actually got X mana right now...oh, he can +Garruk for twice that...oh, if I kill that creature/Garruk, he's only got Y.
If you drop it too early and lose anyways, and your opponent has land-hate in the sideboard...it feels extra bad next game.
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Genesis Hydra
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Turntimber Ranger
3 Primeval Titan
Planeswalkers
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
2 Primal Command
Enchantments
3 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Arcane Adaptation
Lands
2 Breeding Pool
7 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Nature's Claim
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
I'm personally of the opinion that if you're playing an infinite combo in a deck, you want to have consistent ways to tutor up both elements, or to consistently draw them. Having 2-of's of a combo seems like a half measure to me, and dilutes an already solid mainboard devotion plan. I would personally go harder on the combo if you want to make it work. That being said, I have never played it, so take it with a grain of salt. Let us know how it goes!
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Strangleroot Geist
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Steel Leaf Champion
2 Rhonas, the Indomitable
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Chameleon Colossus
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
Lands
21 of em
its not a devotion deck, but by its design its not that far off. infact devotion carts might make it more consistent at its top end when trying to cast the fatties instead of cremating them for combo damage.
I was also thinking that at first, because my previous build of the deck went all-in on the combo and didn't bother with Primeval Titan as an alternative win-con. The problem however with the Arcane Turntimber Combo is that it's incredibly easy to disrupt for the opponent with removal. Just a single bolt, path or other removal that is not Fatal Push kills the Turntimber while the trigger is on the stack and I'm left with just a single wolf. And between Genesis Hydra, Primal Command and Oath of Nissa (and Eternal Witness when things go wrong), there is lots of tools to find the combo. That said, Arcane Adaptation is easier to find with Genesis Hydra, but can't be found with Primal Command or Oath of Nissa, so I'm going bumping that card to a 3-off.
Last night I didn't had any trouble finding the combo, but there was also a lot of luck involved sometimes, i.e. my first Arcane Adaptation got stolen with a Kitesail Freebooter when I could have played in the following turn, but then I topdecked the second Arcane Adaptation. And the Primeval Titans also did loads of work, even after the infinite combo got off. During a game my opponent sweeped the board with Pyroclasm and destroyed my Arcane Adaptation, leaving me with only a huge Ranger without trample and him with sufficient blockers. But playing Titan and finding Kessig Wolfrun maybe me swing for a nice overkill the following turn and giving him no chance to find an answer.
By the way, I'm loving the look of that Big Stompy deck.
I tend to play Devotion as a member of the second bin. My sole exception is the single copy of Vizier of Remedies I throw in my Eternal-Command builds. These builds benefit from Devoted Druid anyway to provide more turn-3 Titan or Command possibilities, and having a Vizier to tutor up and go infinite is just a nice option when available. At the worst, it's a body for a later overrun win.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Adaptation however is ONLY a combo piece. On it's own and with other cards it does nothing. Hell, it doesn't even add devotion. But when they both are on the field it's game-winning. The nice thing about the combo is also that you don't need the Adaptation before the Ranger, as any other creature will trigger it. So it's tricky to decide what's the correct number is. But that's what playtesting is for haha.
Speaking of which, you can also do this in response to a mid-game Inquisition/Thoughtseize if you're pretty certain the pact is what they'll take, just to make your hand a bit more discard proof. Just don't do what I so often do, forget the part where its a pact that requires payment on your upkeep >_<
One of the upsides of playing Pact over P.Command.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
It is. It is a way to spend infinite mana and a win-con "sink" that does not require an additional turn. It is also a great way to win through certain hate (Ensnaring Bridge, etc.) as I run a TON of artifacts and hate cards in the board. It's also just a great card in multiple types of Devotion decks. Gives us means of killing small creatures early and larger creatures late and gives us the potential for direct damage. It has a smaller synergy in the Simic deck as well as it is an artifact (which counts for Karn's tokens). It is not a huge deal; but having a Ballista and Curio on board makes his tokens 3/3's to start...
The deck still runs one "Big" Karn and three Little ones The truth is generally once you have the combo; you have a lot of different ways to win. A few include:
1. Use Abundant Growth, Elvish Visionary, or Coiling Oracle (or Oath if in the deck) to draw out the deck and kill however you like. You can also use Karn and Nissa to draw out the deck (although nissa can only draw creatures and lands...you can then use a creature like Visionary or Oracle to draw out the deck). Karn can also get any card because even if a Karn leaves play, the exiled cards still remain in exile with Silver counters on them to be "grabbed" by later/new Karns.)
2. Use Nissa SOE to turn all lands into 5/5 flying haste creatures (can use Nissa's other abilities or CoilingOracle to put more lands on board if need be).
3. Pour infinite mana into Walking Ballista
4. Use Karn Liberated to exile the opponents hand and board.
5. Use Acidic Slime to destroy the opponent's lands (all)
6. In the Gruull version you can simply make infinite 2/2 haste Satyrs and attack same turn; but both can make infinite tokens of many types.
Yeah...BBE is crazy good (especially when you can bounce him and re-play him) I currently prefer the Simic version (because it digs/draws better); but in honesty I don't know which is "better".
Thanks for the heads up on mispelling of Gruul. I probably won't go back and fix it; but will make sure it is correct in the future.
That's actually a really interesting idea. I could totally see a Jund version of Walker deck or even just Golgari (as we have plenty of awesome creatures to use)...I am a BIG fan of the Vraska, Relic Seeker (it is a really powerful card)...and Liliana, the Last Hope is actually a really interesting idea...she is early tiny creature removal, and her -2 is really good not only just because we play a lot of creatures; but likely performs well with Eternal Witness and to a lesser extent Nissa, Vital Force.
Super interesting idea. I haven't tried it yet...but I could totally see a Golgari Walker deck being strong (as you would have access to both Liliana TLH and Vraska RS as well as a ton of great sideboard options).
Really neat list! I love the idea of putting a combo in a Devotion deck where possible (the Devoted Druid/Vizier combo is great, I think the Madcap Expirement combo is a viable option for us, the Freed From the Real combo with both Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl and/or Bloom Tender is cool, etc.)...
I don't think you would be wrong to play Genesis Hydra and Nissa, Steward of Elements. I would actually advise it. While they don't work well together in a few instances...it is extremely rare that this will come up (and both are great ways to get to your combo pieces). Little nombos are not a big deal when both cards are great additions to the overall deck plan. I've played both and loved when I scry'd with Nissa and knew I was going to have a Hydra the next turn
MirageJenius also played this combo for a bit; so they would be a great source of discussion as well.
This looks really strong. Doesn't NEED Devotion, but actually takes advantage of it...great list. With the right board I think this is a truly viable deck.
the way i look at it liliana, the last hope for this deck she is eternal witness 5+ or 5-8. or you could say she is "eternal witness on a stick" every couple turns. considering we have a lot of ETB abilities more eternal witness for creature effects might be a good thing. On top of that milling the two cards is filter.
on top of that we don't have to pay 3 to get a walking ballista back to our hand in the turns following the turn we played her which is an improvement over having to cast eternal witness for a walking ballista in the same turn you want to cast it.
Alex goes all in for his two Nykthos drops then bomb out with X mana. He has spike cards like Blood Moon and Abrade, so you have to consider that aspect of what kind of win condition you want. Disrupt an opponent's early game to ensue the more explosive mana flood of Devotion to grind out your win.
You have to deal with the opponent's set up in the first three to four turns. Whether you get an early Primal Command and Eternal Witness lock or you use Aspect of Hydra and hasty hits with Strangleroot Geist and Boggart Ram Gang against slower decks.
The Turntimber Ranger and Arcane Adaptation build is extremely vulnerable to handkill and spot removal. So if it is your only win con, it's a casual Modern win con that won't get you anywhere in Spike tournament environments. BUT. You can build a deck around this combo as secondary win condition, and you might include synergy cards like one Reaoer King, Summoning Trap, Xenagod and Genesis Hydra, and Temur Sabertooth. The goal for the combo is to let it through so you will need stuff like Prowling Serpopard to avoid countermagic when casting the 5cmc Ranger, and Summoning Trap to get a second Ranger inside the deck out if the first gets countered.
Building around the combo still involves getting devotion early and running early blockers. I tried to use Mirrorweave in the Ranger Build with Arcane Adaptation to use the Blue part to make my Sylvan Caryatids and Overgrown Battlements into Primalcrux and swing for 60 plus if the opponent does tap out. I also put in Urabrask and Privileged Position to protect the combo pieces once they were in play. As it stands the Adaptation with Ranger is way too slow for Valakut Scapeshift, Skred, Death Shadow, and even Jeskai Control or Jund and I played the deck once in a tournament environment and losing spectacularly.
If you can stall an opponent's board to set up the combo via a Genesis Wave situation with devotion at 7 to 8 maybe you can insert the pieces as playsets inside a traditional Genesis Wave deck and create overkill with Reaper King, naming the second Adaptation that hits the board as Scarecrows. But that's 9 cards inside a 39 card deck, so that means you need a 15 card devotion dork suite and 2 or 3 Genesis Wave plus Genesis Hydra and Xenagod as other options. The only way to win with the Adaptation-Ranger combo is to stall them out and hit the combo. I also used the crap card Leyline of Sanctity and used somebody's suggestion of Trostani Selesnya Voice for infinite life additional security and you get it into play during the first land drop but it is absolutely crap when top decked. It makes Primalcrux extra fat in the butt too if you run it. Prowling Serpopard is a must in the Adaptation-Ranger combo. You can put one or two Privileged Position too. So you see it is way too slow but it is grindy when you can last several land drops or actually use land ramp. My build worked off Mana Walls for fast ramp with Overgrown Battlement and Axebane Guardian, with opponent baffled what the heck my deck was doing, but I always got overwhelmed by Goblins or a fat Tarmogoyf and spot removal or a Supreme Verdict clearing board. It is a fun build for casual Modern but absolutely horrendous against a Spike tournament environment.
Humans and Hatebear kill you outright. I've never used Walking Ballista yet but maybe that might turn the tide.
Enjoy your Devotion Builds guys. But whatever you use, know how the meta works. Early explosive turns wins it nicely, If you ever play slow hands, it's an autoloss. Need to have a one CMC and curve to 5 devotion by turn 3 or have 5 mana available by turn two, any slower than that turns games into what CurdBros and other guys here call grindout games, and spot removal and board wipe usually win it for them unless you have the Primal Command Witness build to recover board position.
He makes some awesome comebacks. He has an interesting take on the deck, focusing on the card advantage/toolbox aspect, running Primals and Woodland Bellower with Jadelight and Trackers. It runs pretty decently.