Hey guys, I have been working in a new setlist today based in the ideas discussed in the last pages and in Walk's Primeval Titan thread. I am not really sure this is the place for this decklist so please let me know if I should remove it.
The idea behind this list is to take advantage the toolbox aspect of devotion that I think has a lot of potential, we have amazing 3 drops that we can play in turn 2 with a bit of ramp either from arbot elf or utopia sprawl.
I wanted the deck to be super resilent so we can build up while we start hitting the opponent until we can resolve a kessig wolf run or trample with a titan to close the game.
Please feel free to leave feedback as I would love to see where I could improove the list. I will be playing this list in the following days and see how it does.
Your list is perfectly fine here. We are the Devotion thread
I think his list/thread is for kind-of Stompy—Zoo decks (I shouldn’t assume too much though) but by all means you are welcome to post here.
I do agree that 3-CMC and 4-CMC are super important for us. I have enjoyed 2-cmc cards in the past; but it’s looking more and more like 3 is the biggest jump in power in Modern card design.
I've been goldfishing the decklist I posted earlier, and I find Oath of Nissa very weird. It's a good "draw" spell in itself, but an akward 1 drop in this list. Since I play no two-drops apart from one brave Scooze boi, the Oath doesn't enable anything T2, so I never want to play it T1. I keep wishing it was an Elvish Mystic or a Bird instead. Is it normal or am I simply supposed to play it later in the game ? ^^
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I've been goldfishing the decklist I posted earlier, and I find Oath of Nissa very weird. It's a good "draw" spell in itself, but an akward 1 drop in this list. Since I play no two-drops apart from one brave Scooze boi, the Oath doesn't enable anything T2, so I never want to play it T1. I keep wishing it was an Elvish Mystic or a Bird instead. Is it normal or am I simply supposed to play it later in the game ? ^^
No. Not weird. I think you make a good point. It is a great dig spell; but you are right that it is not an ideal turn-1 play. I'm not entirely certain it is a necessity for all Devotion decks (I have played decklists without it)...but given my love for Walkers I have played it quite a bit. You make a great point in the sense that a dork is preferable to Oath on turn one for sure most of the time. It is nice to draw it in the later turns and have your choice of the top 3 (assuming the deck is built to take advantage of Oath)...but even then it can hurt if you play a good amount of instants/sorceries, etc..
You could replace them with dorks to see how it worked out for you. As long as you have adequate deck manipulation it shouldn't handicap the deck much.
this is the link to the primer current list is still in process and mostly revolve around Knight of the Reliquary into Primeval Titan, there is also someone working on an Archangel of Thune list with Chord of Calling. There is also a strong synergy between Knight and Tireless Tracker that is being used. The main philosophy is that we don't require Nykthos but if we do have Nykthos we can translate it into a huge Kessig Wolf Run or in Clues.
Since the exclusion of big pay off and not having a focus on big mana play couple with the hostility this thread had against me, I decided to move my list somewhere else where individual would have a different mindset.
this is the link to the primer current list is still in process and mostly revolve around Knight of the Reliquary into Primeval Titan, there is also someone working on an Archangel of Thune list with Chord of Calling. There is also a strong synergy between Knight and Tireless Tracker that is being used. The main philosophy is that we don't require Nykthos but if we do have Nykthos we can translate it into a huge Kessig Wolf Run or in Clues.
Since the exclusion of big pay off and not having a focus on big mana play couple with the hostility this thread had against me, I decided to move my list somewhere else where individual would have a different mindset.
this is the link to the primer current list is still in process and mostly revolve around Knight of the Reliquary into Primeval Titan, there is also someone working on an Archangel of Thune list with Chord of Calling. There is also a strong synergy between Knight and Tireless Tracker that is being used. The main philosophy is that we don't require Nykthos but if we do have Nykthos we can translate it into a huge Kessig Wolf Run or in Clues.
Since the exclusion of big pay off and not having a focus on big mana play couple with the hostility this thread had against me, I decided to move my list somewhere else where individual would have a different mindset.
List is still a work in progress, I think there is a tiny bit too many lands. I usually run 20 lands 8 fetch, 24 is quite intense.
Good luck with your primer!
Eh, not the first I work on ahah, I'll keep coming here from time to time but some of the folks will have to relax.
No more drama tho but I'll come back on what I meant by the deck is dead. When a deck had potential to win big event and now the deck had no top 8, no top 16 I would go as far as to say no top 64.. then it's easy to see how the deck isn't working as it once did. The main reason why, like I said prior, is the fact that people now know how the deck operate and understand how to easily deny our game plan with the multiple destroy effect being currently run. While not every deck is Jund and not every deck as access to counter spells. The deck is just not reliable and doesn't shine in any match up.
If we look at it further and see how it fairs against deck being played at the moment we realise this deck isn't fit for the meta and it is why it needs and require a swift rework.
GTron : We lose since they ramp faster and more consistently than us having access to better threats. They have access to Discard + a pletora of destroy devotion effect.
Death Shadow : This deck run a massive amount of Destroy effect + Counterspell main deck with a faster and more reliable clock backed with Discard effect.
Humans : Being a fast ''zoo'' like deck if we do not block their creature we might lose before resolving one of our big pay off, also note Meddling Mage that will make sure to call either Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave. They also have Sin Collector and Dismember in the sideboard but the main issue is that we cannot outrace them. Kitchen Finks could help in slowing them down but we lack interaction against meddling mage, casting a beast within would be the best option but it's slow us down in our devotion count. Maybe splashing white for Path to Exile or Black for Push would be a viable strat.
UW control : This deck is built on counter spell and destroy effect we are not winning this. They also run Field of Ruin in the main deck.
Eldrazi : This might be our best match up in the deck currently played but I would still not call it favorable.
Affinity : Is too fast against us and sure we can pack hate game 2 but it slow down our devotion.
Valakut : This is also a favorable Match-Up but it really comes down to a race, version running counterspell should win since they won't need to hold up counterspell to protect Scapeshift and we have no Discard effect to take it away. Again a black splash would be good.
Mardu Pyromancer : Which seen a rise recently is a deck that is fairly similar to Death Shadow and simply pack an enormous amount of removals.
Jund : Impossible to win.
UWR : Impossible to win.
All in all I don't mean to insult anyone by saying that I deck that I loved to built is dead.. it's just that the old list isn't worth it against the field and it's not realist to build a deck without taking into account what the field look like.
NOW I AINT AGGRESSIVE SIMPLY EXPLAINING THINGS, this was in all cap so members could read before replying that I am trying to be evil or what ever.
There is ways in which the deck could be expanded and could help in the deck having favorable match up against these decks. I am venturing into an aggro list that I worked a separate primer for since it stepped away from big mana play and instead focus on generating only 4-mana, members here were against a list looking for a Sol land but in my opinion they are blind to the fact that Knight of the Reliquary enable 2 Sol Land per turn + fetch nykthos and that against the field it's pretty impossible to generate more than 4 mana since most decks will have ways of dealing with creature or you will have to block to survive.
Beside looking to lowering the decks mana plays it could run a support color. I would suggest running Black for Discard and Destroy effect allowing the deck to slowly build a board and eventually resolving an entwine tooth and nail, blue would also help in protecting this tooth and nail.
The deck would be built of only green creature, would not run mana dork since turn 1 would not be a Discard effect, turn 2 Hexproof or Defender Mana dork are fine since they have a good chance of survival and blue for counterspell.
Basically Walk you're saying the deck (as if there were only one version) "dies to doomblade". Also, we're blind, and not reading your posts unless they're in all caps. Well.
Good luck on your new primer though ^^
The Knight interaction with Nykthos is interesting but I don't see it happening that often, or does it ? It's hardly gamewinning anyway, and the creature is not unvulnerable itself. Now I have never played with the card so I may underestimate it. I'll look at one of your lists, I'm intrigued
@maxivz : if you wanna take advantage of our creatures and plant tokens to turn them into temporary dorks, that means you don't plan to play the Saga before turn 4-5 and I don't thing it's impacting enough. Plus the built in payoff (+1/+1 counters) is kinda negligible.
As for the Beast Tracker it's interesting but we're not talking card advantage since the card goes to the top of the library
Song of Freyalise seems like a slow cryptolith rite to me. I don't think this decks wants to durdle around more than it already is.
Also, I'm of the opinion that Genesis Wave decks, while sweet, are absolutely at the bottom of the Devotion totem pole. So much needs to go right for those to pop off. I think it's to some degree evident that Pact lists and Devoted Druid+Primal Command lists have bubbled to the top, while Planeswalker versions don't have enough testing
The general assessment that Nyxwave lists are not viable has been agreed upon by the majority of the community for quite some time (I would say at least 18 months or so if not more)...Modern is just not in a place where a “ramp into one huge spell” deck is fast enough to work (and there are enough answers/disruption in all colors played at high enough rates that it was no longer viable). The general discussions within this thread for some time have been how to utilize Devotion in different metas (whether that be when the larger “Modern Meta” shifts or even at a more personal level (for those who play at their local shop, etc.). Thus far, it’s served us well.
Nykthos + Knight is not exactly new either. I have played it on MTGO, likely posted a list here as well. I am sure others have played with it. But my approach was 'bigger', Walk tries a more aggro approach(or Zoo). I have tried it as a Bant configuraion as well, for Retreat to Coralhelm combo as added line in deckbuilding. But that is annoying in clicks online...
To be honest and although I love this type of deck, they are all at the same level (or tier). Primal Command centric, Genesis wave combo versions, controllish Walker builds, agressive slanted devotion,... They all have a similar powerlevel. The mere fact that there is such a high variety in lists is a sure sign of that as well. we, as 'experts' cannot even figure which list is best. Reason? None is the best and as Walk is saying none is good enough for a GP or PT if you want to win. I think it is one of the best decks outthere for FNM though, especially Wave decks, they are so much fun.
I think you and Walk have a different opinion from myself on how deck development works. Lantern. Merfolk, Ponza, and a million other decks were in development for years before they “hit”.
Green Devotion lists have had numerous wins, too 8’s, top 16’s, and top 64’s. There is is reason the list was considered “Developing Competitive” and not just a “Deck Idea”.
The reason there are multiple versions of the deck is not because of a lack of understanding...it is because the very nature of green Devotion is extremely wide. We have access to cards up to 10+ mana...while the core tends to be similar in all decks; the truth is that approximately 20 cards can be a very wide swath of cards between 3-8 mana. I agree that we do want to keep the curve a little lower/tighter; but even in those conditions we are not like most Modern decks (that are forced to only use 1-3 CMC).
Also, our synergy is “play green permanents”. It is not other synergy decks...it’s not like flashback/dredge (graveyard dependent), Storm (very specific cheap car trips), or even Affinity (majority low costed artifacts/artifact creatures), etc. that are slightly more open synergy decks. We are rewarded for just playing green permanents. Oath of Nissa expanded things even more. Past the core 1-2 drops; there really are a lot of options. Also, the more options available in each “slot” drastically expands deck list options (as they compound on one another). Simply put....we have too many cards to choose from
So no....we are not like other “Good Stuff” Modern decks. We may need a new card printed to drastically reduce the variance between decks (if they print something like Grey Merchant, Master of Waves, etc. for Green); but I really truly believe we have what we need to maintain competitiveness in Modern.
I do agree that the vast majority of lists ado not end up being competitive for one reason or another. I’ve brewed likely close to 100 Devotion lists in my years playing it; and I would say only 4-5 were truly competitive in their meta (could beat the top 12 decks with high enough consistency). I also agree that Green Devotion has some very real hurdles we have to build around (speed issues due to needing a board state, etc) that I have outlined in the past. Despite this, however; the archetype is versatile enough and powerful enough to overcome those hurdles.
Having said all of the above...you are absolutely right that we have to be keenly aware of the deficiencies in the archetype. If we don’t account for them, the opponent will take advantage of them. I do think the current thought-processes of tightening the curve, playing a few more cards that reward the player for playing green permanents (and even reward Devotion) is the correct path to a Devotion deck in the new meta.
I'm still a lot behind on reading the last few pages since my last visit but.....from what i did read in the last 2, there are a few things i'd like to share from experience in playing this deck for years
1. Primeval Titan, ok it was a 2-of in a list that made a Top 8, but i would say that it made a top 8 "despite" of it. When we have 6 mana to cast a titan..we don't really need 2 more lands. And the Kessig Wolf Run """combo""" doesn't work most of the times, since they will just kill the targeted creature. Woodland Bellower for the same mana cost of Titan is A LOT better
2. Wistful Selkie. I tried her, tried the Courser, and finally settled with Carven Caryatid. it is a GREAT blocker, gives u a card like selkie..only downside is 1 less devotion.
I have a big tournament on saturday and this is my actual list. I'd like to hear what are your thoguhts. What i can replace, remove, add, and so on, thank you
I haven't been impressed with Nissa, Steward of Elements so i'm thinking of replacing her, considering also that the blue splash is ONLY for her...taking her out will help the mana base.
P.S.
Forgot to add regarding Oath of Nissa. Revealing 3 finishers with it, having to put 2 of them at the bottom. Revealing a Primal command and having to put it to the bottom, being forced to take a land or elf instead...makes that card extremely bad in many situations...and very good in others....s i thin it is too risky to play it and hoping it wont screw you up.
Song of Freyalise seems like a slow cryptolith rite to me. I don't think this decks wants to durdle around more than it already is.
Also, I'm of the opinion that Genesis Wave decks, while sweet, are absolutely at the bottom of the Devotion totem pole. So much needs to go right for those to pop off. I think it's to some degree evident that Pact lists and Devoted Druid+Primal Command lists have bubbled to the top, while Planeswalker versions don't have enough testing
What do people think about that assessment?
I would say the Pact lists have seen the most recent results and the Devoted Druid list has seen wins on MTGO by two players as well...so I would agree those are the most successful archetypes currently in terms of results.
I'm still a lot behind on reading the last few pages since my last visit but.....from what i did read in the last 2, there are a few things i'd like to share from experience in playing this deck for years
1. Primeval Titan, ok it was a 2-of in a list that made a Top 8, but i would say that it made a top 8 "despite" of it. When we have 6 mana to cast a titan..we don't really need 2 more lands. And the Kessig Wolf Run """combo""" doesn't work most of the times, since they will just kill the targeted creature. Woodland Bellower for the same mana cost of Titan is A LOT better
2. Wistful Selkie. I tried her, tried the Courser, and finally settled with Carven Caryatid. it is a GREAT blocker, gives u a card like selkie..only downside is 1 less devotion.
I have a big tournament on saturday and this is my actual list. I'd like to hear what are your thoguhts. What i can replace, remove, add, and so on, thank you
I haven't been impressed with Nissa, Steward of Elements so i'm thinking of replacing her, considering also that the blue splash is ONLY for her...taking her out will help the mana base.
P.S.
Forgot to add regarding Oath of Nissa. Revealing 3 finishers with it, having to put 2 of them at the bottom. Revealing a Primal command and having to put it to the bottom, being forced to take a land or elf instead...makes that card extremely bad in many situations...and very good in others....s i thin it is too risky to play it and hoping it wont screw you up.
I really like your list. I agree that both Woodland Bellower and Carven Caryatid are great cards. I’ve always felt card advantage and efficient creatures were areas we could be best at...so i think you’ve got a good list. Let us know how it goes!
Nissa SOE is a VERY specific card. You are probably right to look at a few other options.
I'm a big fan of the card as well. Are you sure about being 0 Devotion when flipped though? I thought the current ruling was that flipped cards retain their mana cost, including symbols.
Unless there was a recent rules change flipped cards have CMC=0 and do not count towards devotion.
I've been goldfishing the decklist I posted earlier, and I find Oath of Nissa very weird. It's a good "draw" spell in itself, but an akward 1 drop in this list. Since I play no two-drops apart from one brave Scooze boi, the Oath doesn't enable anything T2, so I never want to play it T1. I keep wishing it was an Elvish Mystic or a Bird instead. Is it normal or am I simply supposed to play it later in the game ? ^^
IMO Oath of Nissa is not as strong in a list that uses vital cards that cannot be fetched with it. Mostly Primal Command. Exactly for the reason you mentioned.
However since we are a 20 / 21 land deck and a "fair" ramp deck in the sense that we run up to 12 cards just for ramp (Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Birds of Paradise) we run into two main issues:
*We dont find our lands when our ramping pieces get removed since we only run 20/21 lands. Leaving us stranded with our CMC >4 cards.
*We have all our ramp and none of our payoff cards
Oath helps tremendously in those situations, given we can fetch our threats with it. Don't think of it as a T1 play. Because honestly it's not advisable to keep a hand without a T1 ramp card. But consider the interaction you dont receive when you goldfish: your T1 Ramp gets removed.
Now you can T2: Another ramp card + Oath, helping you to find a CMC4 card for T3 or maybe just another fetch land if you have a Tracker in hand for example.
The Keyword is consistency.
@Soulgix: If you want to stay in Blue try out Kiora, Master of the depths. Synergizes well the more Eternal Witnesses you play.
I would not recommend Thorshammer813 advise on Stubborn Denial since you dont have enough Power >4 creatures. Negate is definitely worth considering, although in the board.
If you expect Aggro, try to bring some Kitchen Finks with you, even if its just in the board. 3 Primal Commands plus kitchen finks will make you very strong against aggro + you already run 3x Nissa VOZ to reset persist counters.
Unless you expect tons of control I would put Carnage Tyrant and Ruric Thar in the Board and bring in some 3 drops (Carven Caryatid/Eternal Witness). Keep in mind the defender of Carven Caryatid. It's great being a cantrip Bolt proof devotion enabler but you cant use it to overrun with Craterhoof/Garruk.
Dont forget to side out Eternal Witness when you bring in the Relics.
I hope you get to wreck some Tron players with Crumble.
Best of Luck to you!
I'm a big fan of the card as well. Are you sure about being 0 Devotion when flipped though? I thought the current ruling was that flipped cards retain their mana cost, including symbols.
Unless there was a recent rules change flipped cards have CMC=0 and do not count towards devotion.
Not sure if this excerpt is right (source), but it says:
711.4b While a double-faced permanent’s back face is up, it has only the characteristics of its back face. However, its converted mana cost is calculated using the mana cost of its front face. If a permanent is copying the back face of a double-faced card (even if the card representing that copy is itself a double-faced card), the converted mana cost of that permanent is 0.
I believe this change was implemented in Shadows over Innistrad.
Your list is perfectly fine here. We are the Devotion thread
I think his list/thread is for kind-of Stompy—Zoo decks (I shouldn’t assume too much though) but by all means you are welcome to post here.
I do agree that 3-CMC and 4-CMC are super important for us. I have enjoyed 2-cmc cards in the past; but it’s looking more and more like 3 is the biggest jump in power in Modern card design.
Modern :
Legacy :
No. Not weird. I think you make a good point. It is a great dig spell; but you are right that it is not an ideal turn-1 play. I'm not entirely certain it is a necessity for all Devotion decks (I have played decklists without it)...but given my love for Walkers I have played it quite a bit. You make a great point in the sense that a dork is preferable to Oath on turn one for sure most of the time. It is nice to draw it in the later turns and have your choice of the top 3 (assuming the deck is built to take advantage of Oath)...but even then it can hurt if you play a good amount of instants/sorceries, etc..
You could replace them with dorks to see how it worked out for you. As long as you have adequate deck manipulation it shouldn't handicap the deck much.
I am working on my list with a separate primer.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/790482-primeval-knight
this is the link to the primer current list is still in process and mostly revolve around Knight of the Reliquary into Primeval Titan, there is also someone working on an Archangel of Thune list with Chord of Calling. There is also a strong synergy between Knight and Tireless Tracker that is being used. The main philosophy is that we don't require Nykthos but if we do have Nykthos we can translate it into a huge Kessig Wolf Run or in Clues.
Since the exclusion of big pay off and not having a focus on big mana play couple with the hostility this thread had against me, I decided to move my list somewhere else where individual would have a different mindset.
4 Experiment One
1 Wild Nacatl
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Primeval Titan
2 Woodland Bellower
2 Rancor
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Forest
1 Plains
List is still a work in progress, I think there is a tiny bit too many lands. I usually run 20 lands 8 fetch, 24 is quite intense.
Good luck with your primer!
Eh, not the first I work on ahah, I'll keep coming here from time to time but some of the folks will have to relax.
No more drama tho but I'll come back on what I meant by the deck is dead. When a deck had potential to win big event and now the deck had no top 8, no top 16 I would go as far as to say no top 64.. then it's easy to see how the deck isn't working as it once did. The main reason why, like I said prior, is the fact that people now know how the deck operate and understand how to easily deny our game plan with the multiple destroy effect being currently run. While not every deck is Jund and not every deck as access to counter spells. The deck is just not reliable and doesn't shine in any match up.
If we look at it further and see how it fairs against deck being played at the moment we realise this deck isn't fit for the meta and it is why it needs and require a swift rework.
GTron : We lose since they ramp faster and more consistently than us having access to better threats. They have access to Discard + a pletora of destroy devotion effect.
Death Shadow : This deck run a massive amount of Destroy effect + Counterspell main deck with a faster and more reliable clock backed with Discard effect.
Humans : Being a fast ''zoo'' like deck if we do not block their creature we might lose before resolving one of our big pay off, also note Meddling Mage that will make sure to call either Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave. They also have Sin Collector and Dismember in the sideboard but the main issue is that we cannot outrace them. Kitchen Finks could help in slowing them down but we lack interaction against meddling mage, casting a beast within would be the best option but it's slow us down in our devotion count. Maybe splashing white for Path to Exile or Black for Push would be a viable strat.
UW control : This deck is built on counter spell and destroy effect we are not winning this. They also run Field of Ruin in the main deck.
Eldrazi : This might be our best match up in the deck currently played but I would still not call it favorable.
Affinity : Is too fast against us and sure we can pack hate game 2 but it slow down our devotion.
Valakut : This is also a favorable Match-Up but it really comes down to a race, version running counterspell should win since they won't need to hold up counterspell to protect Scapeshift and we have no Discard effect to take it away. Again a black splash would be good.
Mardu Pyromancer : Which seen a rise recently is a deck that is fairly similar to Death Shadow and simply pack an enormous amount of removals.
Jund : Impossible to win.
UWR : Impossible to win.
All in all I don't mean to insult anyone by saying that I deck that I loved to built is dead.. it's just that the old list isn't worth it against the field and it's not realist to build a deck without taking into account what the field look like.
NOW I AINT AGGRESSIVE SIMPLY EXPLAINING THINGS, this was in all cap so members could read before replying that I am trying to be evil or what ever.
There is ways in which the deck could be expanded and could help in the deck having favorable match up against these decks. I am venturing into an aggro list that I worked a separate primer for since it stepped away from big mana play and instead focus on generating only 4-mana, members here were against a list looking for a Sol land but in my opinion they are blind to the fact that Knight of the Reliquary enable 2 Sol Land per turn + fetch nykthos and that against the field it's pretty impossible to generate more than 4 mana since most decks will have ways of dealing with creature or you will have to block to survive.
Beside looking to lowering the decks mana plays it could run a support color. I would suggest running Black for Discard and Destroy effect allowing the deck to slowly build a board and eventually resolving an entwine tooth and nail, blue would also help in protecting this tooth and nail.
The deck would be built of only green creature, would not run mana dork since turn 1 would not be a Discard effect, turn 2 Hexproof or Defender Mana dork are fine since they have a good chance of survival and blue for counterspell.
I could also see a version running Kamahl's Druidic Vow.. but not really.Song of Freyalise makes it so we don't need mana dork anymore.
Good luck on your new primer though ^^
The Knight interaction with Nykthos is interesting but I don't see it happening that often, or does it ? It's hardly gamewinning anyway, and the creature is not unvulnerable itself. Now I have never played with the card so I may underestimate it. I'll look at one of your lists, I'm intrigued
@maxivz : if you wanna take advantage of our creatures and plant tokens to turn them into temporary dorks, that means you don't plan to play the Saga before turn 4-5 and I don't thing it's impacting enough. Plus the built in payoff (+1/+1 counters) is kinda negligible.
As for the Beast Tracker it's interesting but we're not talking card advantage since the card goes to the top of the library
Modern :
Legacy :
Also, I'm of the opinion that Genesis Wave decks, while sweet, are absolutely at the bottom of the Devotion totem pole. So much needs to go right for those to pop off. I think it's to some degree evident that Pact lists and Devoted Druid+Primal Command lists have bubbled to the top, while Planeswalker versions don't have enough testing
What do people think about that assessment?
The general assessment that Nyxwave lists are not viable has been agreed upon by the majority of the community for quite some time (I would say at least 18 months or so if not more)...Modern is just not in a place where a “ramp into one huge spell” deck is fast enough to work (and there are enough answers/disruption in all colors played at high enough rates that it was no longer viable). The general discussions within this thread for some time have been how to utilize Devotion in different metas (whether that be when the larger “Modern Meta” shifts or even at a more personal level (for those who play at their local shop, etc.). Thus far, it’s served us well.
I think you and Walk have a different opinion from myself on how deck development works. Lantern. Merfolk, Ponza, and a million other decks were in development for years before they “hit”.
Green Devotion lists have had numerous wins, too 8’s, top 16’s, and top 64’s. There is is reason the list was considered “Developing Competitive” and not just a “Deck Idea”.
The reason there are multiple versions of the deck is not because of a lack of understanding...it is because the very nature of green Devotion is extremely wide. We have access to cards up to 10+ mana...while the core tends to be similar in all decks; the truth is that approximately 20 cards can be a very wide swath of cards between 3-8 mana. I agree that we do want to keep the curve a little lower/tighter; but even in those conditions we are not like most Modern decks (that are forced to only use 1-3 CMC).
Also, our synergy is “play green permanents”. It is not other synergy decks...it’s not like flashback/dredge (graveyard dependent), Storm (very specific cheap car trips), or even Affinity (majority low costed artifacts/artifact creatures), etc. that are slightly more open synergy decks. We are rewarded for just playing green permanents. Oath of Nissa expanded things even more. Past the core 1-2 drops; there really are a lot of options. Also, the more options available in each “slot” drastically expands deck list options (as they compound on one another). Simply put....we have too many cards to choose from
So no....we are not like other “Good Stuff” Modern decks. We may need a new card printed to drastically reduce the variance between decks (if they print something like Grey Merchant, Master of Waves, etc. for Green); but I really truly believe we have what we need to maintain competitiveness in Modern.
I do agree that the vast majority of lists ado not end up being competitive for one reason or another. I’ve brewed likely close to 100 Devotion lists in my years playing it; and I would say only 4-5 were truly competitive in their meta (could beat the top 12 decks with high enough consistency). I also agree that Green Devotion has some very real hurdles we have to build around (speed issues due to needing a board state, etc) that I have outlined in the past. Despite this, however; the archetype is versatile enough and powerful enough to overcome those hurdles.
Having said all of the above...you are absolutely right that we have to be keenly aware of the deficiencies in the archetype. If we don’t account for them, the opponent will take advantage of them. I do think the current thought-processes of tightening the curve, playing a few more cards that reward the player for playing green permanents (and even reward Devotion) is the correct path to a Devotion deck in the new meta.
1. Primeval Titan, ok it was a 2-of in a list that made a Top 8, but i would say that it made a top 8 "despite" of it. When we have 6 mana to cast a titan..we don't really need 2 more lands. And the Kessig Wolf Run """combo""" doesn't work most of the times, since they will just kill the targeted creature. Woodland Bellower for the same mana cost of Titan is A LOT better
2. Wistful Selkie. I tried her, tried the Courser, and finally settled with Carven Caryatid. it is a GREAT blocker, gives u a card like selkie..only downside is 1 less devotion.
I have a big tournament on saturday and this is my actual list. I'd like to hear what are your thoguhts. What i can replace, remove, add, and so on, thank you
7 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Stomping Ground
3 Breeding Pool
Mana (15)
4 Arbor Elf
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Support (14)
2 Eternal Witness
3 Primal Command
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Garruck Relentless
2 Carven Caryatid
1 Acidic Slime
1 Polukanos, World Eater
1 Hornet Queen
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Walking Ballista
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Karn Liberated
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Carnage Tyrant
2 Nissa, Steward of elements
3 Stony Silence
1 Creeping Corrosion
3 Angel Grace
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
4 Crumble to Dust
I haven't been impressed with Nissa, Steward of Elements so i'm thinking of replacing her, considering also that the blue splash is ONLY for her...taking her out will help the mana base.
P.S.
Forgot to add regarding Oath of Nissa. Revealing 3 finishers with it, having to put 2 of them at the bottom. Revealing a Primal command and having to put it to the bottom, being forced to take a land or elf instead...makes that card extremely bad in many situations...and very good in others....s i thin it is too risky to play it and hoping it wont screw you up.
I will post what I have been testing ASAP today.
Stubborn denial is perfect for our deck.
You can Utopia sprawl for blue.
Cascading cataracts adds an element of surprise when you tap Nykthos and cataracts for five blue to cast a big flying beater.
I would say the Pact lists have seen the most recent results and the Devoted Druid list has seen wins on MTGO by two players as well...so I would agree those are the most successful archetypes currently in terms of results.
I really like your list. I agree that both Woodland Bellower and Carven Caryatid are great cards. I’ve always felt card advantage and efficient creatures were areas we could be best at...so i think you’ve got a good list. Let us know how it goes!
Nissa SOE is a VERY specific card. You are probably right to look at a few other options.
Unless there was a recent rules change flipped cards have CMC=0 and do not count towards devotion.
IMO Oath of Nissa is not as strong in a list that uses vital cards that cannot be fetched with it. Mostly Primal Command. Exactly for the reason you mentioned.
However since we are a 20 / 21 land deck and a "fair" ramp deck in the sense that we run up to 12 cards just for ramp (Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Birds of Paradise) we run into two main issues:
*We dont find our lands when our ramping pieces get removed since we only run 20/21 lands. Leaving us stranded with our CMC >4 cards.
*We have all our ramp and none of our payoff cards
Oath helps tremendously in those situations, given we can fetch our threats with it. Don't think of it as a T1 play. Because honestly it's not advisable to keep a hand without a T1 ramp card. But consider the interaction you dont receive when you goldfish: your T1 Ramp gets removed.
Now you can T2: Another ramp card + Oath, helping you to find a CMC4 card for T3 or maybe just another fetch land if you have a Tracker in hand for example.
The Keyword is consistency.
@Soulgix: If you want to stay in Blue try out Kiora, Master of the depths. Synergizes well the more Eternal Witnesses you play.
I would not recommend Thorshammer813 advise on Stubborn Denial since you dont have enough Power >4 creatures. Negate is definitely worth considering, although in the board.
If you expect Aggro, try to bring some Kitchen Finks with you, even if its just in the board. 3 Primal Commands plus kitchen finks will make you very strong against aggro + you already run 3x Nissa VOZ to reset persist counters.
Unless you expect tons of control I would put Carnage Tyrant and Ruric Thar in the Board and bring in some 3 drops (Carven Caryatid/Eternal Witness). Keep in mind the defender of Carven Caryatid. It's great being a cantrip Bolt proof devotion enabler but you cant use it to overrun with Craterhoof/Garruk.
Dont forget to side out Eternal Witness when you bring in the Relics.
I hope you get to wreck some Tron players with Crumble.
Best of Luck to you!
Ruric and tyrant are great even in aggro decks, ad i don't know what to take out from the side to make space for anything
As for blue, if i take Nissa away, i have 2 free spots i'll probably fill with witness/Caryatid or something, dropping blue altogether.
Not sure if this excerpt is right (source), but it says:
I believe this change was implemented in Shadows over Innistrad.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB