Went to FNM tonight, was seriously one of the worst night's I've ever had. I won't bother to do a complete breakdown because I believe it was all due to variance. Went (essentially) 0-4, however I got the bye so technically 1-3 haha. The deck operated super well the very first game (turn 3 swing for 10, turn 4 game), and then after that it was land, land, land for days..it wouldn't end!
Anyway, I'm running more of a superfriends deck now too, it seems to run decently most of the time. I would probably cut a Garruk, as we kind of curve out more than go huge. I would probably cut Nissa Vital Force too because she is just not good when behind unfortunately. I came to the same conclusion when I first played her, and I'm realizing it again. Maybe my meta just isn't right for her, I'm not sure.
I'm going to start playing around with Walking Ballista, Nissa VOZ and Verdurous Gearhulk a bit more. That seems to be a sweet combination. Anyways, hope other people are having better luck than me!
Match 1: Bant Eldrazi
Game 1: So I ended up takign this game by turn 3 as the game went as such:
turn 1: forest, Arbor Elf
turn 2: forest, Utopia Sprawl, into Utopia Sprawl and a Arbor Elf
turn 3: Plow under his 2 lands
Needless to say game 1 was a wrap.
Game 2: It was slower but resolving a turn 2 Blood Moon shuts Bant Eldrazi out of the game. He had his Noble Hierarch but the one source of mana wasn't enough.
Overall notes: I am happy I play Blood Moon in the sideboard. I realized it yesterday I wasn't playing it but man it does work.
Match 2: Soul Sisters
Game 1: Now this is my brother piloting my soul sisters list so I knew how to beat it. Plow under and using kessig to kill his Ajnai's pridemates in combat makes for quick work.
So far I gotta say I love the iteration of the deck I'm running. I got to play one round against a Tron list and man it was an easy matchup. (this is odd as a Delver and midrange player normally) I found my hardest matchup was the combo but even then I would have been fine if it was on turn 4 because I had a Primal Command ready to seal Saheeli away.
So I finally decided to jam hidden herbalists into a deck to have some fun, and boy it has been fun gaining infinite life and doing infinite damage on T3. Idea is to gain infinite life or enough life to stall out until we have grapeshot combo. Summoners Pact can go grab whichever tool we need, either our second BTE for the combo, Essence warden for life, or Elvish Visionary to draw out the combo. I would like to find another green creature like Essence Warden that can be found with Summoners Pact to enable other combos, but nothing comes to mind right now...I did think of add more leyline to protect the creatures from counters, but I would like to keep the CMC low. Most of the combo can be kept in hand until enough mana is on the board to just combo off on the same turn.
** EDIT ** Deleted last post (as the tags, etc. were not formed right) Added a little extra here as well; but most is the same as the one prior.
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There's nothing inherently wrong with playing Blood Moon. If it harms your opponent more than you and wins many of the games in your meta...so be i!
I understand your frustration. I'm not a very big fan of the card in terms of it being legal, but it is....so you should absolutely use it if it is strong in your meta.
Land destruction is actually one of our better sideboard plans. It can fall in line with Primal Command and can effectively slow every opponent down without needing an answer to each specific combo (i.e. What works against Goyro's Vengeance may not work against cheerios, etc.).
In my recent build I've been utilizing Beast Within and over half the time it targets a land. With multiple ways to deal with 3/3's; it becomes an effective tool. Beast Within is not extremely efficient (a 3-drop 1-for-0 is not a great rate)...but it makes up for this with versatility. I've destroyed land, creatures, oblivion stones, and even planeswalkers...ive even targeted my own land to get a 3/3 to overrun the next turn. The meta may slow down enough to allow for it to be a great sideboard option.
It 100% depends on your deck; but a few "catch-all" cards I've utilized with success in the past include:
Beast Within
Trinisphere
Primal Command
Thorn of Amythest
Defense Grid
Ghost Quarter
Blood Moon
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Lifeforce
Rule of Law / Eidolon of Rhetoric
By no means is that an exhaustive list; but it's a reasonable staring point.
Sideboarding can be very difficult for Green devotion...Silver Bullet decks (utilizing Chord, Command, Pact, Fauna Shaman, etc.) often times have a much stronger boards simply because of their ability to tutor for things...even they, however have the constraints of utilizing mostly creatures (often needing to be green). Each deck, whether Tooth and Nail, Stompy, Ponza, etc. has their own tutors and tools and you have to work within the framework of the deck. While we use a lot of the same core cards; the decks from 3-CMC on can be quite different (and can lead to different board choices).
I do have to also say, however, that Walking Ballista has been insane. It's good against a LOT of decks. I'm up to 3 in my 75; but would prefer to be at 4.
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I'm still struggling with the current list I'm testing, for example. The current deck I'm trying (non-Curio Walker/Superfriends):
The board (as discussed in this post) is under construction/subject to change...the deck doesn't have a ton of room to sideboard each game (unless you go the "transform" route). As the meta changes/figures itself out with the recent bans/additions; our decks and boards will probably have to change too
The deck idea came about from side-boarded games with the Curio builds...I found between Oath of Nissa, Abundant Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Burds of Paradise, and Genesis Hydra...I could play pretty much any and all walkers regardless of color extremely consistently. There are meta's where the combo build may be tougher to play; so I wanted to maintain the "Walker" idea in a more interactive and "up the curve" deck.
Walkers represent huge amounts of value (with activation each turn) so it fits right in to the "overwhelming" way I like to play Devotion (especially since most have some form of "draw" ability); while also allowing for interaction where and when it is needed.
I've been playing Ob Nixilis Reignighted for the time being; although it may become two copies of Ajani Unyielding if I find that at least 80% of the situations where I could cast him I would have been able to cast/tutor for a 6-drop. Ajani Unyielding is a "better" card in a vacuum; but mana-efficiency is huge (and when searching for a "removal spell" Walker with Genesis Hydra I may only be able to cast it at 5-CMC.
I'm still working on the board; and I've been testing extensively...it's just tough for a deck built on synergy and ramp in the early game; as the deck is often better off playing 3-5 drop "answers" (as they are often more powerful and we can't really remove any of our ramp/Devotion-enabler cards or the curve can get odd...) but often times the most broken decks require an answer on the first or second turn or they just "go off".
Random Sideboarding Thoughts
In terms of early creature answers; don't be afraid to play 2-4 copies of Bolt, Path, or Push...a lot of great T&N and Toolbox Devotion decks have been very successful with Lightning Bolt in particular out of the board.
Walking Ballista is incredible. It can remove creatures, hit walkers...I think it should be in the 75 of most Devotion decks. It is weird to tutor for, however. That is a downside (as it can't be Chorded to the board, etc.) but it is one of the few cards that lets us break the color pie without needing anything but green mana. It can also do silly "mass removal" things if given death touch (multiple ways to do this). You just "ping" each creature for 1 while it has death touch.
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Another thing I focus on is What tutors I'm using...this can help decide the best sideboard options (as sideboard cards are only good if you can draw/play them).
In my deck, Oath of Nissa, Kiora, and Genesis Hydra mean that I should (where possible) focus my sideboard answers in the form of lands, creatures, and/or walkers.
I also, however, am a big fan of putting a tutor in the sideboard. If most of my sideboard cards are creatures (or I want a certain creature in the board) m; I may add a Chord of Calling (even if it's not a "chord deck" so I effectively have "two copies" I can potentially draw into.
Other tutors include:
Bring to Light- this one kinda has fallen off; but in a deck with Birds/Caryatid, Utopia Sprawl, Shock lands, and Abundant Growth...we can often easily make 4-5 colors playing a "Mono Green" deck
Being able to play Slaughter Pact, Supreme Verdict, Crumble to Dust, Beast Within, Witness, Spellskite, Primal Command, etc. all from the same tutor card (that also simply casts the card) can be amazing in the correct builds. I'm working on a "Bring to Light" Board now because you essentially can side in multiple "copies" of your "hate" while not effecting your overall gameplan and/or diluting the deck too much.
Chord of Calling - probably our best option for creatures (especially non-green ones); Chord allows us to play true "hate" creatures again without diluting our game plan (as we can always Chord for one of our main deck creatures if the hate is. It needed).
Summoners Pact - for green creatures like Scavenging Ooze, Acidic Slime, Ruric-Thar, Hornet Queen, Reclamation Sage, Gaddok Teag, Loaming Shaman, etc. Pact will often be the best bet (as it is "free" on the turn you need/use it). It again allows us to play multiple "copies" while maintaining the normal course of the deck. While it requires a cost the following turn; you're generally happy to do so if the Hate the last turn pushed you far enough ahead.
Primal Command - We all know that PC can tutor for any creature. Since it's already part of many Devotion decks; that can be huge.
Wargate - this one is lesser used, but can be GREAT if your board consist heavily of non-creature permanents (enchantments, artifacts, walkers, etc.)
Trophy Mage, etc. - - of course there are other more "specialized" tutors as well.
Those are just some tutors; but whichever hits multiple cards (especially the multiple 1-of cards in the board) may be worth a slot to help more consistently hit your sideboard cards. Many Devotion decks already play tutors/digging spells; so often this will already inform your board choices.
Went to FNM tonight, was seriously one of the worst night's I've ever had. I won't bother to do a complete breakdown because I believe it was all due to variance. Went (essentially) 0-4, however I got the bye so technically 1-3 haha. The deck operated super well the very first game (turn 3 swing for 10, turn 4 game), and then after that it was land, land, land for days..it wouldn't end!
Anyway, I'm running more of a superfriends deck now too, it seems to run decently most of the time. I would probably cut a Garruk, as we kind of curve out more than go huge. I would probably cut Nissa Vital Force too because she is just not good when behind unfortunately. I came to the same conclusion when I first played her, and I'm realizing it again. Maybe my meta just isn't right for her, I'm not sure.
I'm going to start playing around with Walking Ballista, Nissa VOZ and Verdurous Gearhulk a bit more. That seems to be a sweet combination. Anyways, hope other people are having better luck than me!
Cheers!
I was thinking of trying out 3 Copies of Garruk as well...I am testing it now. You are right that half the time you kinda wish you could play another walker when you have a Garruk in hand and one on board. I do like the early walkers to generate mana, however...I'm working with both Xenagos and Kiora. I do agree that the deck curves really well though...
My list is a little different in the sense that it doesn't play BTE, Tracker, Courser, or Prime Time (It's kinda more all in on Walkers) but that is neither a good thing or a bad thing...just different. The Nissa, Ballista, Gearhulk is a strong idea! I'd love to hear how it does as well.
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear how you've like Nichol Bolas, Planeswalker? I'm so pumped to see what the next one in Amonket is going to be like (that is one nice thing about liking Walker decks...you get a few new cards every set )
I've been thinking about the state of Tooth and Nail after Kaladesh block. Modern has got fastlands, Fatal Push, expertise cheating, Sram and revolt creatures for aggro decks but because many decks now have cheap black removal it is harder for linear creature based decks to dominate. Recently I've finally got new Internet provider and that was enough for me to start testing online. I see Jund and Grixis rise in popularity. This is terrible news for T&N. While both matchups were slightly in their favor before Kaladesh, they have become a problem now.
Fatal Push is so strong and cheap. Untappers die, planeswalkers are now very hard to protect - both beast tokens and lands animated by Nissa die, even glorified Obstinate Baloth dies. Smart players play around baloth easily. Very often I find myself holding it in my hand to "protect" myself against discard. Opponents force it to be played and then they use discard, a kill spell or just laugh with 4/5 on their side. Another problem is that baloth can't trade with most of the big creatures. With all of these in mind I began searching for a solution and I think I found it. And no, it's not swagtusk.
The one I'm talking about is Vorapede. First of all it doesn't die to Fatal Push which is huge now. In addition it has undying which makes it very resilient to removal (even something like All is Dust!). Another big thing - it costs 5 mana. Just as much as Primal Command so it can be played the next turn. There were so many situations where I searched for titan or wurmcoil hoping to topdeck a land and was unable to cast them because of that 1 missing mana. This nasty insect also has trample which makes it much easier to race your opponent - 5-6 trampling power is nothing to laugh at. Did I mention vigilance? Along with trample it let's me attack, protect my life total AND planeswalkers. Last but not least - it trades with almost evey creature in the format: Tarmogoyf (sometimes not), Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer, Wurmcoil Engine, titans. Vorapede is my creature of choice in post-Kaladesh modern. For now I'm playing 2 in maindeck.
I read the discussion few pages back about playing vs Jund. I know it's late but here are some of my thoughts.
- Obstinate Baloth is not the solution. I highly suggest Vorapede.
- When sideboarding: side out 2-3 T&N and Emrakul (althought it can shrink goyf I like my Eternal Witnesses better. No chance to cast it. You can side out Xenagos too if you have many 4-7 cmc creatures), some dorks 1-2 (they won't live long and you don't need as much ramp after siding out half of the combo), out with Atarka if you play it, you can cut 1 Primal Command. Side in Scavenging Ooze, Hornet Queen and Kitchen Finks, Thrun, Ruric Thar etc. if you have any. If your opponent didn't see Blood Moon G1 use it (if he did I would side it out if you're on the draw). I haven't tested Vorapede along with Blood Moon in maindeck but I guess they don't like each other (I switched to Crumble to Dust).
- Try to play around discard (if you're empty-handed be careful when searching for a creature via command if you can't cast it the same turn).
- They key to beating Jund are lands and mana. Don't keep land light hands with a lot of mana dorks. Focus on ramp that Jund has troubles dealing with: auras and lands. You will eventually go bigger than they.
- Fetch as late as possible not to thin your deck out of lands. Expect Fulminator Mage from your opponent, especially if they saw Kessing Wolf Run or titan G1. He's also a reason to fetch for basics unless you REALLY need red mana. Ignore this point if you maindeck Blood Moon.
- When playing Eternal Witness try to either get fetches back (I would highly suggest this unless you've got at least 5-7 mana) or shrink the goyf by returning enchanment or other unique card type to your hand.
When it comes to Grixis and decks with counterspells I swap 2 lands (Hanweir Battlements and a fetch most of the time) for 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All (it's a land so grixis has hard time dealing with it). Choke or Blood Moon are fine too. Remember to leave at least 3 copies of Tooth and Nail in the main deck when siding in Boseiju. Don't mix Boseiju and Blood Moon. Vorapede is all-star in this matchup.
Extremely interseting point...
Vorapede is absolutely worth trying. It's mythic for a reason...and you are right that the 5-CMC is a big benefit. I think you may be on to something here.
The first point is why I moved to playing Sylvan Caryatids where the Birds used to be. It can lead to slower turns in some cases (I've found about 30% of turns where it could have mattered in terms of speeed...but not all of those change the outcome of the game). There is just too much "bolt the bird" cards now available. When this is added to the potential increase in Chalice of the Void (if Cherrios actually becomes a thing) and Engineered Explosives...it is really hard for a deck to play that many dorks.
Voyaging Satyr also becomes much harder to play because he is killed by all the same spells AND costs 2-mana. You are absolutely right that it is a tough meta for it.
While Genesis Hydra and Walkers tend to make control (Grixis, etc.) a much less difficult match up...there are many devotion decks (such as Tooth and Nail, etc.) that now will have a tougher time against them due to push and Collective Brutality especially.
Great points. Thank you SO much for your insight. It's posts like this where we can come together and work together to better position ourselves in the meta that really help the entire community.
So I finally decided to jam hidden herbalists into a deck to have some fun, and boy it has been fun gaining infinite life and doing infinite damage on T3. Idea is to gain infinite life or enough life to stall out until we have grapeshot combo. Summoners Pact can go grab whichever tool we need, either our second BTE for the combo, Essence warden for life, or Elvish Visionary to draw out the combo. I would like to find another green creature like Essence Warden that can be found with Summoners Pact to enable other combos, but nothing comes to mind right now...I did think of add more leyline to protect the creatures from counters, but I would like to keep the CMC low. Most of the combo can be kept in hand until enough mana is on the board to just combo off on the same turn.
I think this list is much "tighter" than mine (of course Herbalists didn't exist back then :).
I could honestly see this working as one of the faster combo decks now. It can be interacted with pretty easily; but there are so many redundant parts that you're often OK if they do try to interact.
A couple Genesis Wave may be good too though...just another way to get a lot of permanents on the board at once.
I've actually had some great games with both Ajani, Mentor of Heros and Ajani Unyielding so I'm trying them out more today. Chandra, Torch of Defiance has also shown promise (and 4-CMC is a big deal)...the trick is getting the best assortment main and put the rest in the board.
I'm definitely thinking about adding Priest of Urabrask and a few other cards at the moment. I have already taken out most of the leylines and testing out a few 1-of creatures like managorger hydra and forgotten ancient. Still don't know what is the best route, but it will probably end up being the leyline route as it helps ramp if in opening hand, and it is an easy infinite life combo to assemble. It is very fun to play and I love the serious card draw when I mix BTE/Herbalist and Elvish Visionary. Purphoros, God of the Forge might come off the sideboard for me, just in case I can't swing with hydra or gain infinite life. I think it is important to have multiple different combos in the deck.
I'm very curious to see other peoples take on a combo deck like this, and what other lists people might come up with!
It's absolutely a blast to play. When I played a similar "storm" deck; my only main issue was reliably getting Cloudstone Curio...I'm sure there are remedies to this (via card draw, digging, etc.). Also, my list wasn't nearly as good as Machado's.
It definitely could be a deck though. The speed of BTE, Herbalists, and Pact can lead to ridiculous games when Curio is in your opening hand. I think it's absolutely abdexk worth perfecting! Great deck idea Machado! I'm gonna add a little spot in the Primer for it. Is it cool if I cite you as the creator?
I have no problem with that at all! The deck really can be fun to play (especially on paper), but can also be frustrating when your opening hand curio gets taken away. I'm usually able to flood the board with creatures very quickly, but I prefer to keep them in hand until the combo is ready. This might change if I end up testing garruk in this deck as I have had many games where 4 mana is easily available turn 2, and garruk would easily end the game on turns 3-4. I really would like to keep the deck as low CMC as possible though. I also thought that Nykthos would be awkward in this deck, but it has been amazingly helpful creating fast mana to loop some of my draw spells.
If only Trophy Mage was green so we could pact and get curio. Chord doesn't really fit in these builds, right?
There's no reason you couldn't play Chord and a Troohy Mage. Both Chord and Trophy Mage would help bolster a sideboard as well (as often in Combo decks you can really only side in a couple cards; so having tutors for any creatures as well as "hate cards" like Trinisphere, Crucible of Worlds, etc. may be worth it in the long run (i.e. Fine tuning the deck)...it's certainly something I would 100% test as it could be used for purposes both within the main deck and the sideboard.
P.S. I wish Trophy Mage was green too :). We green mages want everything to fall into our pie section (partially because WOTC has recently given us nearly everything in green
Wow, that looks amazing. My question would be, wouldn't this just lose to a bolt once Laboratory Maniac resolves? If that is the case, would there be any 1-of card that could give him protection from removal that can be found by genesis wave?
I tried to make this plan work foe a while, and Privileged Position was the best way I found to protect the lab maniac win. My list was much more all-in on winning that way, and frankly didn't work that well.
It's probably just plain worse than courser, but Carven Caryatid does a similar job of protecting your walkers, and replaces itself. Also won't drive you crazy if you have an irrational hangup against playing with the top of your library revealed, like me.
Strongly agree with Nathaniel that the list needs three drops.
Interesting to see only 4 Arbor Elf as the 1-drop accelerants. I haven't tried playing without Birds for a while, perhaps it might be worth trying out!
I know I say it a lot; but there is NOTHING wrong with playing straight up "traditional" Devotion. I love brewing (and have an affinity for Walkers and certain particular cards...) but Decks like this one are perfect examples of green Devotion....tons of card advantage, tons of mana-sinks, everything Devotion does better than other decks in the format.
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On Walker Devotion (non-combo); I've been playing:
I know it's 61 cards; but some decks (depending on the curve) seem to play better with 21 lands and 61 total rather than 20/60...also utilizing 8 fetches and a Horizon Canopy helps mitigate flooding while still hitting our land drops.
It's been testing quite well. Not that it's leaps and bounds different from other builds...just a little more tuned for the meta I've been playing in.
The fun thing about Walker decks is the potential for new walkers each new set From the looks of it, we know we are at least getting a Liliana and a Gideon in Amonket (as they've shown the planeswalker box art); but big sets end up potentially getting a few more walkers too.
I'm completely in love with Walking Ballista. Was difficult to find space but testing 4 right now. Being colorless makes this card just bonkers.
What I'm wondering is, to play Basilisk Collar or not? It obviously makes the Ballista even more crazy, but I'm not sure how often we can/want to pay that mana. If we have spare mana we can already start doing crazy things in most builds.. While it still gets along with mana dorks that can then defend and token from our planes.
Any returns from those who already tested Collar?
I haven't tested Collar yet. It is an interesting interaction. I do like that it turns any form into a lethal blocker. My only worry is that it is another card that needs other cards to be good.
Given our use of permanents (creatures, walkers, enchantments, lands, etc.) I think it could be worth a a lot. There are many times you just just pay GUW to tutor up a Nykthos.
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Anyway, I'm running more of a superfriends deck now too, it seems to run decently most of the time. I would probably cut a Garruk, as we kind of curve out more than go huge. I would probably cut Nissa Vital Force too because she is just not good when behind unfortunately. I came to the same conclusion when I first played her, and I'm realizing it again. Maybe my meta just isn't right for her, I'm not sure.
4 Arbor Elf
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
3 Genesis Hydra
2 Walking Ballista
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Karn Liberated
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
21 Lands
I'm going to start playing around with Walking Ballista, Nissa VOZ and Verdurous Gearhulk a bit more. That seems to be a sweet combination. Anyways, hope other people are having better luck than me!
Cheers!
4 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
3 Primeval Titan
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
//Enchantment (10)
3 Abundant Growth
3 Fertile Ground
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Courser of Kruphix
//Planeswalker (4)
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
//Sorcery (9)
3 Plow Under
4 Primal Command
2 Sylvan Scrying
//Land (21)
10 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Beast Within
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Inferno Titan
3 Firespout
2 Blood Moon
3 Nature's Claim
So here is my game by game report:
Match 1: Bant Eldrazi
Game 1: So I ended up takign this game by turn 3 as the game went as such:
turn 1: forest, Arbor Elf
turn 2: forest, Utopia Sprawl, into Utopia Sprawl and a Arbor Elf
turn 3: Plow under his 2 lands
Needless to say game 1 was a wrap.
Game 2: It was slower but resolving a turn 2 Blood Moon shuts Bant Eldrazi out of the game. He had his Noble Hierarch but the one source of mana wasn't enough.
Overall notes: I am happy I play Blood Moon in the sideboard. I realized it yesterday I wasn't playing it but man it does work.
Match 2: Soul Sisters
Game 1: Now this is my brother piloting my soul sisters list so I knew how to beat it. Plow under and using kessig to kill his Ajnai's pridemates in combat makes for quick work.
Game 2: I resolved a turn 4 Plow under to hit 2 copies of windbrisk heights which just secured me the game.
Match 3: Saheeli Cat
Game 1: He pulled off the combo on turn 3... couldn't do anything about it.
Game 2: Blood Moon and plow under ruin 4 color mana bases
Game 3: See above.
So far I gotta say I love the iteration of the deck I'm running. I got to play one round against a Tron list and man it was an easy matchup. (this is odd as a Delver and midrange player normally) I found my hardest matchup was the combo but even then I would have been fine if it was on turn 4 because I had a Primal Command ready to seal Saheeli away.
Creatures:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Burning-tree emissary
4x Hidden-Herbalist
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Essence Warden
Spells:
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Leyline of Vitality
4x Summoners pact
4x Manamorphse
4x Grapeshot
4x Cloudstone Curio
Land
4x Nykthos
8x fetch land
2x stomping ground
6x forest
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There's nothing inherently wrong with playing Blood Moon. If it harms your opponent more than you and wins many of the games in your meta...so be i!
I understand your frustration. I'm not a very big fan of the card in terms of it being legal, but it is....so you should absolutely use it if it is strong in your meta.
Land destruction is actually one of our better sideboard plans. It can fall in line with Primal Command and can effectively slow every opponent down without needing an answer to each specific combo (i.e. What works against Goyro's Vengeance may not work against cheerios, etc.).
In my recent build I've been utilizing Beast Within and over half the time it targets a land. With multiple ways to deal with 3/3's; it becomes an effective tool. Beast Within is not extremely efficient (a 3-drop 1-for-0 is not a great rate)...but it makes up for this with versatility. I've destroyed land, creatures, oblivion stones, and even planeswalkers...ive even targeted my own land to get a 3/3 to overrun the next turn. The meta may slow down enough to allow for it to be a great sideboard option.
It 100% depends on your deck; but a few "catch-all" cards I've utilized with success in the past include:
By no means is that an exhaustive list; but it's a reasonable staring point.
Sideboarding can be very difficult for Green devotion...Silver Bullet decks (utilizing Chord, Command, Pact, Fauna Shaman, etc.) often times have a much stronger boards simply because of their ability to tutor for things...even they, however have the constraints of utilizing mostly creatures (often needing to be green). Each deck, whether Tooth and Nail, Stompy, Ponza, etc. has their own tutors and tools and you have to work within the framework of the deck. While we use a lot of the same core cards; the decks from 3-CMC on can be quite different (and can lead to different board choices).
I do have to also say, however, that Walking Ballista has been insane. It's good against a LOT of decks. I'm up to 3 in my 75; but would prefer to be at 4.
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I'm still struggling with the current list I'm testing, for example. The current deck I'm trying (non-Curio Walker/Superfriends):
4x Arbor Elf
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Eternal Witness
2x Walking Ballista
2x Genesis Hydra
Enchantment
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Abundant Growth
Planeswalker
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Nissa, Vital Force
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
2x Karn Liberated
8x Green Fetch Land
1x Stomping Ground
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Horizon Canopy
5x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Beast Within
2x Gideon Jura
2x Trinisphere
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Walking Ballista
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Wargate
The board (as discussed in this post) is under construction/subject to change...the deck doesn't have a ton of room to sideboard each game (unless you go the "transform" route). As the meta changes/figures itself out with the recent bans/additions; our decks and boards will probably have to change too
The deck idea came about from side-boarded games with the Curio builds...I found between Oath of Nissa, Abundant Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Burds of Paradise, and Genesis Hydra...I could play pretty much any and all walkers regardless of color extremely consistently. There are meta's where the combo build may be tougher to play; so I wanted to maintain the "Walker" idea in a more interactive and "up the curve" deck.
Walkers represent huge amounts of value (with activation each turn) so it fits right in to the "overwhelming" way I like to play Devotion (especially since most have some form of "draw" ability); while also allowing for interaction where and when it is needed.
I've been playing Ob Nixilis Reignighted for the time being; although it may become two copies of Ajani Unyielding if I find that at least 80% of the situations where I could cast him I would have been able to cast/tutor for a 6-drop. Ajani Unyielding is a "better" card in a vacuum; but mana-efficiency is huge (and when searching for a "removal spell" Walker with Genesis Hydra I may only be able to cast it at 5-CMC.
I'm still working on the board; and I've been testing extensively...it's just tough for a deck built on synergy and ramp in the early game; as the deck is often better off playing 3-5 drop "answers" (as they are often more powerful and we can't really remove any of our ramp/Devotion-enabler cards or the curve can get odd...) but often times the most broken decks require an answer on the first or second turn or they just "go off".
Random Sideboarding Thoughts
In terms of early creature answers; don't be afraid to play 2-4 copies of Bolt, Path, or Push...a lot of great T&N and Toolbox Devotion decks have been very successful with Lightning Bolt in particular out of the board.
Walking Ballista is incredible. It can remove creatures, hit walkers...I think it should be in the 75 of most Devotion decks. It is weird to tutor for, however. That is a downside (as it can't be Chorded to the board, etc.) but it is one of the few cards that lets us break the color pie without needing anything but green mana. It can also do silly "mass removal" things if given death touch (multiple ways to do this). You just "ping" each creature for 1 while it has death touch.
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Another thing I focus on is What tutors I'm using...this can help decide the best sideboard options (as sideboard cards are only good if you can draw/play them).
In my deck, Oath of Nissa, Kiora, and Genesis Hydra mean that I should (where possible) focus my sideboard answers in the form of lands, creatures, and/or walkers.
I also, however, am a big fan of putting a tutor in the sideboard. If most of my sideboard cards are creatures (or I want a certain creature in the board) m; I may add a Chord of Calling (even if it's not a "chord deck" so I effectively have "two copies" I can potentially draw into.
Other tutors include:
Those are just some tutors; but whichever hits multiple cards (especially the multiple 1-of cards in the board) may be worth a slot to help more consistently hit your sideboard cards. Many Devotion decks already play tutors/digging spells; so often this will already inform your board choices.
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I was thinking of trying out 3 Copies of Garruk as well...I am testing it now. You are right that half the time you kinda wish you could play another walker when you have a Garruk in hand and one on board. I do like the early walkers to generate mana, however...I'm working with both Xenagos and Kiora. I do agree that the deck curves really well though...
My list is a little different in the sense that it doesn't play BTE, Tracker, Courser, or Prime Time (It's kinda more all in on Walkers) but that is neither a good thing or a bad thing...just different. The Nissa, Ballista, Gearhulk is a strong idea! I'd love to hear how it does as well.
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear how you've like Nichol Bolas, Planeswalker? I'm so pumped to see what the next one in Amonket is going to be like (that is one nice thing about liking Walker decks...you get a few new cards every set )
Extremely interseting point...
Vorapede is absolutely worth trying. It's mythic for a reason...and you are right that the 5-CMC is a big benefit. I think you may be on to something here.
The first point is why I moved to playing Sylvan Caryatids where the Birds used to be. It can lead to slower turns in some cases (I've found about 30% of turns where it could have mattered in terms of speeed...but not all of those change the outcome of the game). There is just too much "bolt the bird" cards now available. When this is added to the potential increase in Chalice of the Void (if Cherrios actually becomes a thing) and Engineered Explosives...it is really hard for a deck to play that many dorks.
Voyaging Satyr also becomes much harder to play because he is killed by all the same spells AND costs 2-mana. You are absolutely right that it is a tough meta for it.
While Genesis Hydra and Walkers tend to make control (Grixis, etc.) a much less difficult match up...there are many devotion decks (such as Tooth and Nail, etc.) that now will have a tougher time against them due to push and Collective Brutality especially.
Great points. Thank you SO much for your insight. It's posts like this where we can come together and work together to better position ourselves in the meta that really help the entire community.
I Love this deck!
I tried the exact same thing a long time ago, but with Priest of Urabrask and BTE. I didn't have the Leyline's though (and used Purphoros, God of the Forge for the "win".
I think this list is much "tighter" than mine (of course Herbalists didn't exist back then :).
I could honestly see this working as one of the faster combo decks now. It can be interacted with pretty easily; but there are so many redundant parts that you're often OK if they do try to interact.
A couple Genesis Wave may be good too though...just another way to get a lot of permanents on the board at once.
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Update on Non-Curio Superfriends...
It's tough getting the right assortment of walkers. This far, Garruk Wildspeaker, Karn Liberated, Ob Nixilis Reignited and Chandra, Flamecaller have all been stand outs.
Nissa, Vital Force is still working well; but I may need only one copy if Kiora, Master of the Depths doesn't end up in the deck.
I've actually had some great games with both Ajani, Mentor of Heros and Ajani Unyielding so I'm trying them out more today. Chandra, Torch of Defiance has also shown promise (and 4-CMC is a big deal)...the trick is getting the best assortment main and put the rest in the board.
I'm very curious to see other peoples take on a combo deck like this, and what other lists people might come up with!
It definitely could be a deck though. The speed of BTE, Herbalists, and Pact can lead to ridiculous games when Curio is in your opening hand. I think it's absolutely abdexk worth perfecting! Great deck idea Machado! I'm gonna add a little spot in the Primer for it. Is it cool if I cite you as the creator?
There's no reason you couldn't play Chord and a Troohy Mage. Both Chord and Trophy Mage would help bolster a sideboard as well (as often in Combo decks you can really only side in a couple cards; so having tutors for any creatures as well as "hate cards" like Trinisphere, Crucible of Worlds, etc. may be worth it in the long run (i.e. Fine tuning the deck)...it's certainly something I would 100% test as it could be used for purposes both within the main deck and the sideboard.
P.S. I wish Trophy Mage was green too :). We green mages want everything to fall into our pie section (partially because WOTC has recently given us nearly everything in green
I tried to make this plan work foe a while, and Privileged Position was the best way I found to protect the lab maniac win. My list was much more all-in on winning that way, and frankly didn't work that well.
Strongly agree with Nathaniel that the list needs three drops.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpvan17/trial-winning-decklists-2017-02-18
See CHRIS NORRIE'S WOLF RUN GREEN.
Love the 4 Prime Times. Going back to basics. Main deck Boseiju and Panglacial Wurm! Sick sideboard too
That board is GREAT!
I am a big fan of Chameleon Colossus in a world with many Fatal Push and Death's Shadow running around. May even be main-deck worthy now.
I know I say it a lot; but there is NOTHING wrong with playing straight up "traditional" Devotion. I love brewing (and have an affinity for Walkers and certain particular cards...) but Decks like this one are perfect examples of green Devotion....tons of card advantage, tons of mana-sinks, everything Devotion does better than other decks in the format.
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On Walker Devotion (non-combo); I've been playing:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Eternal Witness
3x Genesis Hydra
2x Walking Ballista
Walkers
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Kiora, Master of the Depths
2x Nissa, Vital Force
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2x Karn Liberated
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Abundant Growth
1x Fertile Ground
Lands
8x Green Fetch Land
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
5x Forest
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Beast Within
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Gideon Jura
1x Chandra Pyromaster
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Nylea's Disciple
1x Chord of Calling
1x Flex
I know it's 61 cards; but some decks (depending on the curve) seem to play better with 21 lands and 61 total rather than 20/60...also utilizing 8 fetches and a Horizon Canopy helps mitigate flooding while still hitting our land drops.
It's been testing quite well. Not that it's leaps and bounds different from other builds...just a little more tuned for the meta I've been playing in.
The fun thing about Walker decks is the potential for new walkers each new set From the looks of it, we know we are at least getting a Liliana and a Gideon in Amonket (as they've shown the planeswalker box art); but big sets end up potentially getting a few more walkers too.
What I'm wondering is, to play Basilisk Collar or not? It obviously makes the Ballista even more crazy, but I'm not sure how often we can/want to pay that mana. If we have spare mana we can already start doing crazy things in most builds.. While it still gets along with mana dorks that can then defend and token from our planes.
Any returns from those who already tested Collar?
Given our use of permanents (creatures, walkers, enchantments, lands, etc.) I think it could be worth a a lot. There are many times you just just pay GUW to tutor up a Nykthos.