How are the Nissas working out for you so far? I can see you eternally chumping with Plant tokens, and I can also see board states where it can take over a game. Many users have posted that they've been quite impressed with it.
Wish I'd seen this pop up earlier. It's rare to get an opportunity to see somebody else play Green Devotion.
I've used Temur Sabertooth in the past - do you feel it's too durdly in this environment, or is it just fine? I've only played it sparingly in the past couple months. This card alone can give Jund / Jeskai headaches, which alone makes it worth considering.
Quote from Curdbros »
I like the list...it feels very "tool box-y". Summoner's Pact is something that would make Purklefluff and a few others VERY happy to see being played Smile
Acidic Slime looked really good too. I will have this added to my list immediately.
I'm still high on the Summoner's Pact train too! It's just so fast. Part of me wants to trim Eternal Witnesses as well, but I'm afraid to cut down the duration of the Primal Command loop. Temur Sabertooth would help fix this problem, but also bump up our curve some. Probably worth it anyway, as many times I'm just throwing out Witness to get a body / Fetch back.
Regarding Slaughter Games, it's very good in many matchups where they have trump cards we'd otherwise struggle to beat (Ensnaring Bridge, Living End, Grisselbrand, Elesh Norn [out of the Gifts decks that are still quite good)). In a deck where we have no trouble making RB despite being Green, I think it's definitely worth including. Taking Turns is left with Thassa as a wincon after you strip their Part the Waterveils. Some decks run 1 or 0 of her, so it's up in the air. The couple times I've played it against that deck it's been a KO. It's earned its SB slots - usually when it comes in it's coming in as the lone SB card, so I can remain streamlined + have the interaction to break up what they're doing entirely. Props to Pedros on the suggestion.
Quote from lord_darkview »
So, with all that said... any advice for the new guy?
Welcome to the Green Devotion boards!
You typically aren't playing Genesis Hydras for 20. The reason to run it over Genesis Wave is two-fold: More impact with less mana, and the Cast Trigger!
Is your meta saturated with Blue decks and have problems resolving a Wave? Its cast trigger gets around all that. You'll find yourself typically casting a Hydra for 4, which has a lot of juicy targets. Even a Hydra for 1 is correct a lot of the time, especially since you run the Abundant Growths. It'll get a lot of devotion onto the board in a hurry at worst, and at best it'll find a haymaker and you can win on the spot / set up for next turn, just like Wave. I've never tried Wave myself, but you and I appear to have similar playstyles judging from your card choices. Give a 1-of Summoner's Pact a try, too. Doubles every singleton creature in the deck. It's pretty powerful for just one slot. I'm personally up to 3-4 these days. It's quite good. Give Hydra a shot, too.
I gotta say, am I the only one who feels demoralized/like the rise of the eldrazi deck really hosed the ***** out of this one?
Now literally every deck seems to be packing mainboard land destruction/ghost quarters. No fun man. My meta is chock full of that and spreading seas even in non-merfolk decks. Any ideas on how to get around that?
How are the Nissas working out for you so far? I can see you eternally chumping with Plant tokens, and I can also see board states where it can take over a game. Many users have posted that they've been quite impressed with it.
I pretty much like nissa in every matchup. Often times it reads "add 2 to your mana pool, gain 6 life, put a 0/1 token on the field" due to aggro decks often having to swap to nissa instead of my face. The only time it felt really bad was when I queued into mono red goblins and they had a legion loyalist out behind a nut draw, I had a garruk and nissa and obviously the tokens weren't helpful.
I've used Temur Sabertooth in the past - do you feel it's too durdly in this environment, or is it just fine? I've only played it sparingly in the past couple months. This card alone can give Jund / Jeskai headaches, which alone makes it worth considering.
Sabretooth feels super loose, but I think it can be an answer to board states that are sort of stalemated, it hasn't really felt bad, and I've managed to win two games due to recasting Rec sage to snipe affinity creatures multiple times, and recast acidic slime to kill 4 lands in a turn. Overall it's probably the first thing I'd look to cut but for now I like it. I would probably just replace it with another Eternal witness, but I kind of like the utility my deck has right now over the looping ewit can provide.
I like the list...it feels very "tool box-y". Summoner's Pact is something that would make Purklefluff and a few others VERY happy to see being played Smile
Acidic Slime looked really good too. I will have this added to my list immediately.
I'm still high on the Summoner's Pact train too! It's just so fast. Part of me wants to trim Eternal Witnesses as well, but I'm afraid to cut down the duration of the Primal Command loop. Temur Sabertooth would help fix this problem, but also bump up our curve some. Probably worth it anyway, as many times I'm just throwing out Witness to get a body / Fetch back.
Summoner's pact is amazing, I've had a hand with arbor elf, forest, nykthos, garruk, prime time, and 2 pacts, and managed to double pact on turn 2 for two Burning trees, get devotion for garruk, untap, play prime time, and easily pay the 8 mana I the next turn.
I'm unsure if there's something I'm missing. There clearly is new technology in the recent pages. I do want to say that I generally don't like combos or gimmick decks, but this one works for me because it is so multifaceted and can try so many different angles, so I'd like to preserve most of that. This means I won't switch to an Elves or Curio build. I did see Genesis Hydra and Hornet Queen, but wasn't sure how they compared (they seemed to not have the "WHAM I WIN" result of things like Genesis Wave + Haste creatures). They also seemed a lackluster upper-bound to the stupidly large amount of mana one can generate: a Genesis Hydra for 20 looks significantly less impressive than a Genesis Wave for 20, at a glance.
Another reason for Genesis hydra over wave, is that you can grab it with oath of nissa, while genesis wave is forced to the bottom. Something to think about if you're trying to dig for your wincon.
I gotta say, am I the only one who feels demoralized/like the rise of the eldrazi deck really hosed the ***** out of this one?
Now literally every deck seems to be packing mainboard land destruction/ghost quarters. No fun man. My meta is chock full of that and spreading seas even in non-merfolk decks. Any ideas on how to get around that?
I feel the opposite, besides the rise of blue moon and verdict decks, I've more or less felt well positioned in every matchup I've played, since bg/X, and burn are far more rare nowadays (my list struggles).
Are you playing tooth and nail? Maybe try lowering your curve and going for more midrange allstars?
One of the reasons I've been sticking with this deck is the awesome eldrazi matchup. As long as they don't see a ton of their removal, coupled with a strong draw, I actually find myself feeling favored vs them. A single gutshot or chalice can tear apart my hand though
I agree that the eldrazi matchup is generally not bad, and yes I am playing tooth and nail and might switch to a more midrangey version. And maybe this is just my meta, but I haven't really seen a huge drop in bg/x (burn was thankfully nonexistant at my lgs to begin with)
Probably need to just adjust for my meta i guess. Or whether the storm until eye gets the boot. But yeah, turn 1 chalice is no bueno.
I agree that the eldrazi matchup is generally not bad, and yes I am playing tooth and nail and might switch to a more midrangey version. And maybe this is just my meta, but I haven't really seen a huge drop in bg/x (burn was thankfully nonexistant at my lgs to begin with)
Probably need to just adjust for my meta i guess. Or whether the storm until eye gets the boot. But yeah, turn 1 chalice is no bueno.
yeah I think tooth and nail is not so good right now, I've had more success just jamming toolbox
I asked last night, but didn't see an answer (and read a bunch of the thread but didn't find it). Why have people adopted Genesis Hydra but abandoned Genesis Wave?
Nearest I can tell, at lower mana levels, Hydra itself is a creature and the permanent chosen from among X+1 cards might be better. But once you have over 6 mana, you're probably getting a lot more permanents off Wave and can probably end the game right there, while Hydra is, at most, one bigger creature lacking built-in evasion and one other card. Am I missing something?
I asked last night, but didn't see an answer (and read a bunch of the thread but didn't find it). Why have people adopted Genesis Hydra but abandoned Genesis Wave?
Nearest I can tell, at lower mana levels, Hydra itself is a creature and the permanent chosen from among X+1 cards might be better. But once you have over 6 mana, you're probably getting a lot more permanents off Wave and can probably end the game right there, while Hydra is, at most, one bigger creature lacking built-in evasion and one other card. Am I missing something?
Another reason for Genesis hydra over wave, is that you can grab it with oath of nissa, while genesis wave is forced to the bottom. Something to think about if you're trying to dig for your wincon.
I asked last night, but didn't see an answer (and read a bunch of the thread but didn't find it). Why have people adopted Genesis Hydra but abandoned Genesis Wave?
Nearest I can tell, at lower mana levels, Hydra itself is a creature and the permanent chosen from among X+1 cards might be better. But once you have over 6 mana, you're probably getting a lot more permanents off Wave and can probably end the game right there, while Hydra is, at most, one bigger creature lacking built-in evasion and one other card. Am I missing something?
Another reason for Genesis hydra over wave, is that you can grab it with oath of nissa, while genesis wave is forced to the bottom. Something to think about if you're trying to dig for your wincon.
Well, ummm... that's embarrassing! I shouldn't post when I'm overtired. I missed it just a few posts before. Sorry.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It also means I probably need to be more particular about win conditions, since I can't rely on the overwhelming and crushing might of a Genesis Wave, if Hydra makes me pick and choose. But it's definitely something to think about.
I asked last night, but didn't see an answer (and read a bunch of the thread but didn't find it). Why have people adopted Genesis Hydra but abandoned Genesis Wave?
Nearest I can tell, at lower mana levels, Hydra itself is a creature and the permanent chosen from among X+1 cards might be better. But once you have over 6 mana, you're probably getting a lot more permanents off Wave and can probably end the game right there, while Hydra is, at most, one bigger creature lacking built-in evasion and one other card. Am I missing something?
Another reason for Genesis hydra over wave, is that you can grab it with oath of nissa, while genesis wave is forced to the bottom. Something to think about if you're trying to dig for your wincon.
Well, ummm... that's embarrassing! I shouldn't post when I'm overtired. I missed it just a few posts before. Sorry.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It also means I probably need to be more particular about win conditions, since I can't rely on the overwhelming and crushing might of a Genesis Wave, if Hydra makes me pick and choose. But it's definitely something to think about.
No biggy. It happens all the time (especially when you are catching up and pouring over a bunch of pages at once).
Genesis Wave is still amazing in numerous builds. It's one of the most powerful (if not the single most powerful) cards we can play. It literally just depends on the deck as to which is Better. Recently many of the lists posted have benefited more from Hydra (and Oath of Nissa also has a little to do with it); but that by no means indicates that it is "better" than Wave. Genesis Wave is a great green devotion card.
And don't worry...we won't force you to play anything you don't want (curio, etc.)
Glad to have you posting!! Can't wait to hear more about your list and experiences.
Has there been much testing on a 4x summoner's pact deck with a bunch of different 1x threats like craterhoof, queen, hydra, pulukranos, etc... Ive always loved the idea of being able to fix some bad hands by just having a pact or two in it. Maybe I haven't played enough against decks that can prevent us from paying that mana cost, but I really like the idea of taking out a lot of my multiples of big creatures and replacing with pact. I think more often than not it would be beneficial to pull out a mana dork in the right situation to set up for a turn 4-5 win.
I asked last night, but didn't see an answer (and read a bunch of the thread but didn't find it). Why have people adopted Genesis Hydra but abandoned Genesis Wave?
Nearest I can tell, at lower mana levels, Hydra itself is a creature and the permanent chosen from among X+1 cards might be better. But once you have over 6 mana, you're probably getting a lot more permanents off Wave and can probably end the game right there, while Hydra is, at most, one bigger creature lacking built-in evasion and one other card. Am I missing something?
Another reason for Genesis hydra over wave, is that you can grab it with oath of nissa, while genesis wave is forced to the bottom. Something to think about if you're trying to dig for your wincon.
Well, ummm... that's embarrassing! I shouldn't post when I'm overtired. I missed it just a few posts before. Sorry.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It also means I probably need to be more particular about win conditions, since I can't rely on the overwhelming and crushing might of a Genesis Wave, if Hydra makes me pick and choose. But it's definitely something to think about.
No biggy. It happens all the time (especially when you are catching up and pouring over a bunch of pages at once).
Genesis Wave is still amazing in numerous builds. It's one of the most powerful (if not the single most powerful) cards we can play. It literally just depends on the deck as to which is Better. Recently many of the lists posted have benefited more from Hydra (and Oath of Nissa also has a little to do with it); but that by no means indicates that it is "better" than Wave. Genesis Wave is a great green devotion card.
And don't worry...we won't force you to play anything you don't want (curio, etc.)
Glad to have you posting!! Can't wait to hear more about your list and experiences.
First, I really appreciate your patience with the new guy!
Secondly, I'm now reading a bit more carefully and I guess I'm just not used to the formatting here, but answers to me were plentiful. Another quote will be placed here, both for the quality of advice and completeness.
You typically aren't playing Genesis Hydras for 20. The reason to run it over Genesis Wave is two-fold: More impact with less mana, and the Cast Trigger!
Is your meta saturated with Blue decks and have problems resolving a Wave? Its cast trigger gets around all that. You'll find yourself typically casting a Hydra for 4, which has a lot of juicy targets. Even a Hydra for 1 is correct a lot of the time, especially since you run the Abundant Growths. It'll get a lot of devotion onto the board in a hurry at worst, and at best it'll find a haymaker and you can win on the spot / set up for next turn, just like Wave. I've never tried Wave myself, but you and I appear to have similar playstyles judging from your card choices. Give a 1-of Summoner's Pact a try, too. Doubles every singleton creature in the deck. It's pretty powerful for just one slot. I'm personally up to 3-4 these days. It's quite good. Give Hydra a shot, too.
Genesis Wave - Pros: Brutally crushing at big values (over about 10 mana). Potentially chainable, almost guaranteeing a win on the spot. Cons: Requires big mana to do anything, must resolve.
Genesis Hydra - Pros: Always adds to devotion, better at lower values, plays better with Oath of Nissa, cuts through countermagic. Cons: Not likely to win the game outright.
I definitely missed the last two points. I don't know if I'll prefer it (Wave "goes off" like a combo), but at 100 PP per, I think I can afford the experiment.
It seems travisarius and I do play similar lines. I really like the toolbox approach, a lot. Summoning Pact looks great, but I don't know where I'll fit it. Space is already tight, and it feels a bit redundant with the power of Primal Command.
Drafting another decklist, based on feedback received and further reading.
I'd really like to keep the Strangleroot Geists in for more devotion, defense, and board-sweeper resiliency, but I'm not sure it's feasible. Something had to go to make room for the toolbox. Likewise with fitting a Summoner's Pact, but really that's gravy - Primal Command can take care of all of that. I didn't bother with Craterhoof because it doesn't solve any problem that isn't also solved by a Garruk <-4> activation. I borrowed the Temur idea as well. While the deck isn't as explosive as it can potentially be with Genesis Wave, it still packs a lot of punch. It's definitely more of a control deck now than combo, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
Any thoughts/feedback on the revised list? If it looks good, I'll set about acquiring missing pieces.
Edit: One other realization I had is that Genesis Wave is also better following a Wrath of God-style effect. A 10-mana Hydra may get you two sizable threats, but a 10-mana Wave can easily make 4+, and potentially still win the game on the spot if you hit Witness and either a fresh Garruk or Nykthos to continue chaining. Still, I'm not sure that's so much the case for a 7-mana wave, which may have difficulty generating more than two threats at most. The two options seem surprisingly well balanced against each other.
You are absolutely right that a Wave is a GREAT card on an empty board, after a wrath, in a grindy match up, etc. It an X-for 1 in a majority of cases (i.e. if not countered( with X often being 5 or more. In combo decks it basically is a win-con all it's own.
On "Toolbox" Devotion
I think this is an archetype that is here to stay. Summoner's Pact appears to be really strong; and the combination of it with our numerous great options and Devotion Core looks like it makes the deck both fast and consistent. The decks you guys are providing look really strong! It's great because it looks like we've pretty much found the perfect "Green Devotion Core" but there are so many great options to build around it...I'm doing my best to both provide and organize all of the best cards we can play in the Primer (and which play best together). It's a lot of work.
It's funny, because quite a long time ago there was a "Toolbox" deck that Pedros, Purklefluff, and others played for quite some time but it utilized Chord of Calling at the time. Many cards have been printed since that time, however, and it appears that currently the tutor of choice is Summoner's Pact.
I have a lot to add to the Primer (including detailed Stompy and Toolbox discussions as well as updated and more detailed discussions on Walker Combo as well); so I will be paying close attention to all of the lists and discussion on here to provide multiple examples.
Walker Devotion Deck I'm Testing Tonight
Goatslayer22 made an interesting point on the last page about playing a Walker deck without Xenagos...so I thought, "I should probably test that..." since I've never really tested with Nissa Voice of Zendikar outside of the recent "Tokens" version I've been testing recently. Xenagos and Nissa have extremely good synergy with one another, however; so I don't know how the deck will play without him. Xenagos, the Reveler, however, is the worst card in the deck by itself. What I mean is that it is the weakest card by itself in the deck. The HUGE amounts of synergy and fact that his tokens have haste (and he creates mana) make him great in the deck though.
Anywho, I won't go on and on; but here's the list I'm testing:
Has there been much testing on a 4x summoner's pact deck with a bunch of different 1x threats like craterhoof, queen, hydra, pulukranos, etc... Ive always loved the idea of being able to fix some bad hands by just having a pact or two in it. Maybe I haven't played enough against decks that can prevent us from paying that mana cost, but I really like the idea of taking out a lot of my multiples of big creatures and replacing with pact. I think more often than not it would be beneficial to pull out a mana dork in the right situation to set up for a turn 4-5 win.
Thats what im doing right now! It feels really good, but my list isn't tuned to handle blue decks (I ran into a ton of blue decks today and had a hard time) An easy sideboard tweak fixes these matchups up a ton, and if blue is more common soon (blue moon and UW control one of few decks that can handle eldrazi) then I might be looking into summoning trap or choke in the board~
I've had games where I go:
turn 1
arbor elf
turn 2
nykthos, PACT for BTE, PACT #2 for BTE, TAP NYKTHOS (5), CAST GARRUK > UNTAP > TAP (6), play primeval titan.
turn 3 pay 8 and swing lethal with garruk overrun + prime time/2bte/elf
I dont now why but it looks so much worse than xenagos version...
To be honest, It most likely is worse...but I never like to say if a deck is better or worse until I've tested it (and I never actually tested the deck with just Nissa). Xenagos has AMAZING synergy with the other cards; and there is a definite benefit to having the combo always win on the same turn I'll let you know how it goes!
P.S. Have you (Pedros) been able to test any versions of Walker Combo lately?
Has there been much testing on a 4x summoner's pact deck with a bunch of different 1x threats like craterhoof, queen, hydra, pulukranos, etc... Ive always loved the idea of being able to fix some bad hands by just having a pact or two in it. Maybe I haven't played enough against decks that can prevent us from paying that mana cost, but I really like the idea of taking out a lot of my multiples of big creatures and replacing with pact. I think more often than not it would be beneficial to pull out a mana dork in the right situation to set up for a turn 4-5 win.
Thats what im doing right now! It feels really good, but my list isn't tuned to handle blue decks (I ran into a ton of blue decks today and had a hard time) An easy sideboard tweak fixes these matchups up a ton, and if blue is more common soon (blue moon and UW control one of few decks that can handle eldrazi) then I might be looking into summoning trap or choke in the board~
I've had games where I go:
turn 1
arbor elf
turn 2
nykthos, PACT for BTE, PACT #2 for BTE, TAP NYKTHOS (5), CAST GARRUK > UNTAP > TAP (6), play primeval titan.
turn 3 pay 8 and swing lethal with garruk overrun + prime time/2bte/elf
Yeah...blue/control are historically the toughest match ups for Green Devotion decks in general. Our toughest match ups historically have been Control, decks that go extremely wide (especially in the air) although new cards have lessened this quite a bit, and Super Fast combo (like Infect, Twin, Bloom, etc.) however bans have helped here quite a bit. Twin was our worst match up....so hooray!
There are a lot of cards we can use. Depending on the build, cards like Summoning Trap, Leyline of Lifeforce, Genesis Hydra, and many many others are strong. I'll try to post more good cards against control ASAP tomorrow; but I have no doubt you will already know most if not all of them.
I do think you have to test with and without xenagos if for no other reason than to get a better feel for what nissa can and cannot do. It is likely that the deck is better with xenagos since he creates mana and creature and nissa helps him create more mana by making plants and pumping those creatures. I'm just trying to decide if nissa has a spot in my more aggro version of the deck, if I add her instead of xenagos or something else or if she just doesn't work.
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Standard:GR Eldrazi Ramp
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How are the Nissas working out for you so far? I can see you eternally chumping with Plant tokens, and I can also see board states where it can take over a game. Many users have posted that they've been quite impressed with it.
Wish I'd seen this pop up earlier. It's rare to get an opportunity to see somebody else play Green Devotion.
I've used Temur Sabertooth in the past - do you feel it's too durdly in this environment, or is it just fine? I've only played it sparingly in the past couple months. This card alone can give Jund / Jeskai headaches, which alone makes it worth considering.
I'm still high on the Summoner's Pact train too! It's just so fast. Part of me wants to trim Eternal Witnesses as well, but I'm afraid to cut down the duration of the Primal Command loop. Temur Sabertooth would help fix this problem, but also bump up our curve some. Probably worth it anyway, as many times I'm just throwing out Witness to get a body / Fetch back.
Regarding Slaughter Games, it's very good in many matchups where they have trump cards we'd otherwise struggle to beat (Ensnaring Bridge, Living End, Grisselbrand, Elesh Norn [out of the Gifts decks that are still quite good)). In a deck where we have no trouble making RB despite being Green, I think it's definitely worth including. Taking Turns is left with Thassa as a wincon after you strip their Part the Waterveils. Some decks run 1 or 0 of her, so it's up in the air. The couple times I've played it against that deck it's been a KO. It's earned its SB slots - usually when it comes in it's coming in as the lone SB card, so I can remain streamlined + have the interaction to break up what they're doing entirely. Props to Pedros on the suggestion.
Welcome to the Green Devotion boards!
You typically aren't playing Genesis Hydras for 20. The reason to run it over Genesis Wave is two-fold: More impact with less mana, and the Cast Trigger!
Is your meta saturated with Blue decks and have problems resolving a Wave? Its cast trigger gets around all that. You'll find yourself typically casting a Hydra for 4, which has a lot of juicy targets. Even a Hydra for 1 is correct a lot of the time, especially since you run the Abundant Growths. It'll get a lot of devotion onto the board in a hurry at worst, and at best it'll find a haymaker and you can win on the spot / set up for next turn, just like Wave. I've never tried Wave myself, but you and I appear to have similar playstyles judging from your card choices. Give a 1-of Summoner's Pact a try, too. Doubles every singleton creature in the deck. It's pretty powerful for just one slot. I'm personally up to 3-4 these days. It's quite good. Give Hydra a shot, too.
---
Current List:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Lotus Cobra
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Genesis Hydra
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
1 Hornet Queen
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Primal Command
Lands (20)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Kessig Wolf Run
5 Forest
3 Slaughter Games
3 Blood Moon
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Nylea's Disciple
1 Outpost Siege
Now literally every deck seems to be packing mainboard land destruction/ghost quarters. No fun man. My meta is chock full of that and spreading seas even in non-merfolk decks. Any ideas on how to get around that?
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I pretty much like nissa in every matchup. Often times it reads "add 2 to your mana pool, gain 6 life, put a 0/1 token on the field" due to aggro decks often having to swap to nissa instead of my face. The only time it felt really bad was when I queued into mono red goblins and they had a legion loyalist out behind a nut draw, I had a garruk and nissa and obviously the tokens weren't helpful.
Sabretooth feels super loose, but I think it can be an answer to board states that are sort of stalemated, it hasn't really felt bad, and I've managed to win two games due to recasting Rec sage to snipe affinity creatures multiple times, and recast acidic slime to kill 4 lands in a turn. Overall it's probably the first thing I'd look to cut but for now I like it. I would probably just replace it with another Eternal witness, but I kind of like the utility my deck has right now over the looping ewit can provide.
Summoner's pact is amazing, I've had a hand with arbor elf, forest, nykthos, garruk, prime time, and 2 pacts, and managed to double pact on turn 2 for two Burning trees, get devotion for garruk, untap, play prime time, and easily pay the 8 mana I the next turn.
Another reason for Genesis hydra over wave, is that you can grab it with oath of nissa, while genesis wave is forced to the bottom. Something to think about if you're trying to dig for your wincon.
I feel the opposite, besides the rise of blue moon and verdict decks, I've more or less felt well positioned in every matchup I've played, since bg/X, and burn are far more rare nowadays (my list struggles).
Are you playing tooth and nail? Maybe try lowering your curve and going for more midrange allstars?
One of the reasons I've been sticking with this deck is the awesome eldrazi matchup. As long as they don't see a ton of their removal, coupled with a strong draw, I actually find myself feeling favored vs them. A single gutshot or chalice can tear apart my hand though
Probably need to just adjust for my meta i guess. Or whether the storm until eye gets the boot. But yeah, turn 1 chalice is no bueno.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
yeah I think tooth and nail is not so good right now, I've had more success just jamming toolbox
Nearest I can tell, at lower mana levels, Hydra itself is a creature and the permanent chosen from among X+1 cards might be better. But once you have over 6 mana, you're probably getting a lot more permanents off Wave and can probably end the game right there, while Hydra is, at most, one bigger creature lacking built-in evasion and one other card. Am I missing something?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Well, ummm... that's embarrassing! I shouldn't post when I'm overtired. I missed it just a few posts before. Sorry.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It also means I probably need to be more particular about win conditions, since I can't rely on the overwhelming and crushing might of a Genesis Wave, if Hydra makes me pick and choose. But it's definitely something to think about.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I'm currently testing a version with 4x Garruk, 4x Nissa , no Xenagos (blasphemy!), and a few other tricks :). I'll update tonight after testing.
No biggy. It happens all the time (especially when you are catching up and pouring over a bunch of pages at once).
Genesis Wave is still amazing in numerous builds. It's one of the most powerful (if not the single most powerful) cards we can play. It literally just depends on the deck as to which is Better. Recently many of the lists posted have benefited more from Hydra (and Oath of Nissa also has a little to do with it); but that by no means indicates that it is "better" than Wave. Genesis Wave is a great green devotion card.
And don't worry...we won't force you to play anything you don't want (curio, etc.)
Glad to have you posting!! Can't wait to hear more about your list and experiences.
First, I really appreciate your patience with the new guy!
Secondly, I'm now reading a bit more carefully and I guess I'm just not used to the formatting here, but answers to me were plentiful. Another quote will be placed here, both for the quality of advice and completeness.
So, let's see if I get it right on balance.
Genesis Wave - Pros: Brutally crushing at big values (over about 10 mana). Potentially chainable, almost guaranteeing a win on the spot. Cons: Requires big mana to do anything, must resolve.
Genesis Hydra - Pros: Always adds to devotion, better at lower values, plays better with Oath of Nissa, cuts through countermagic. Cons: Not likely to win the game outright.
I definitely missed the last two points. I don't know if I'll prefer it (Wave "goes off" like a combo), but at 100 PP per, I think I can afford the experiment.
It seems travisarius and I do play similar lines. I really like the toolbox approach, a lot. Summoning Pact looks great, but I don't know where I'll fit it. Space is already tight, and it feels a bit redundant with the power of Primal Command.
Drafting another decklist, based on feedback received and further reading.
10 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills
Mana/Cantrips (20)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Arbor Elf
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eternal Witness
4 Genesis Hydra
3 Primal Command
Creature Toolbox (7)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
1 Hornet Queen
I'd really like to keep the Strangleroot Geists in for more devotion, defense, and board-sweeper resiliency, but I'm not sure it's feasible. Something had to go to make room for the toolbox. Likewise with fitting a Summoner's Pact, but really that's gravy - Primal Command can take care of all of that. I didn't bother with Craterhoof because it doesn't solve any problem that isn't also solved by a Garruk <-4> activation. I borrowed the Temur idea as well. While the deck isn't as explosive as it can potentially be with Genesis Wave, it still packs a lot of punch. It's definitely more of a control deck now than combo, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
Any thoughts/feedback on the revised list? If it looks good, I'll set about acquiring missing pieces.
Edit: One other realization I had is that Genesis Wave is also better following a Wrath of God-style effect. A 10-mana Hydra may get you two sizable threats, but a 10-mana Wave can easily make 4+, and potentially still win the game on the spot if you hit Witness and either a fresh Garruk or Nykthos to continue chaining. Still, I'm not sure that's so much the case for a 7-mana wave, which may have difficulty generating more than two threats at most. The two options seem surprisingly well balanced against each other.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
On "Toolbox" Devotion
I think this is an archetype that is here to stay. Summoner's Pact appears to be really strong; and the combination of it with our numerous great options and Devotion Core looks like it makes the deck both fast and consistent. The decks you guys are providing look really strong! It's great because it looks like we've pretty much found the perfect "Green Devotion Core" but there are so many great options to build around it...I'm doing my best to both provide and organize all of the best cards we can play in the Primer (and which play best together). It's a lot of work.
It's funny, because quite a long time ago there was a "Toolbox" deck that Pedros, Purklefluff, and others played for quite some time but it utilized Chord of Calling at the time. Many cards have been printed since that time, however, and it appears that currently the tutor of choice is Summoner's Pact.
I have a lot to add to the Primer (including detailed Stompy and Toolbox discussions as well as updated and more detailed discussions on Walker Combo as well); so I will be paying close attention to all of the lists and discussion on here to provide multiple examples.
Walker Devotion Deck I'm Testing Tonight
Goatslayer22 made an interesting point on the last page about playing a Walker deck without Xenagos...so I thought, "I should probably test that..." since I've never really tested with Nissa Voice of Zendikar outside of the recent "Tokens" version I've been testing recently. Xenagos and Nissa have extremely good synergy with one another, however; so I don't know how the deck will play without him. Xenagos, the Reveler, however, is the worst card in the deck by itself. What I mean is that it is the weakest card by itself in the deck. The HUGE amounts of synergy and fact that his tokens have haste (and he creates mana) make him great in the deck though.
Anywho, I won't go on and on; but here's the list I'm testing:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Genesis Hydra
1x Eternal Witness
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1x Karn Liberated (or Xenagos)
Enchantment/Artifact (15)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Abundant Growth
4x Cloudstone Curio
9x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
I dont now why but it looks so much worse than xenagos version...
Thats what im doing right now! It feels really good, but my list isn't tuned to handle blue decks (I ran into a ton of blue decks today and had a hard time) An easy sideboard tweak fixes these matchups up a ton, and if blue is more common soon (blue moon and UW control one of few decks that can handle eldrazi) then I might be looking into summoning trap or choke in the board~
I've had games where I go:
turn 1
arbor elf
turn 2
nykthos, PACT for BTE, PACT #2 for BTE, TAP NYKTHOS (5), CAST GARRUK > UNTAP > TAP (6), play primeval titan.
turn 3 pay 8 and swing lethal with garruk overrun + prime time/2bte/elf
To be honest, It most likely is worse...but I never like to say if a deck is better or worse until I've tested it (and I never actually tested the deck with just Nissa). Xenagos has AMAZING synergy with the other cards; and there is a definite benefit to having the combo always win on the same turn I'll let you know how it goes!
P.S. Have you (Pedros) been able to test any versions of Walker Combo lately?
Yeah...blue/control are historically the toughest match ups for Green Devotion decks in general. Our toughest match ups historically have been Control, decks that go extremely wide (especially in the air) although new cards have lessened this quite a bit, and Super Fast combo (like Infect, Twin, Bloom, etc.) however bans have helped here quite a bit. Twin was our worst match up....so hooray!
There are a lot of cards we can use. Depending on the build, cards like Summoning Trap, Leyline of Lifeforce, Genesis Hydra, and many many others are strong. I'll try to post more good cards against control ASAP tomorrow; but I have no doubt you will already know most if not all of them.
Modern: Mono Green Devotion