So the talk of a land destruction deck using the Devotion core got me brewing over the weekend. This is the list I came up with, I think it has all necessary pieces but needs tuning.
The biggest problem I have run into is what to do with big mana if you don't have any loops going. But man turn 3 Plow Under on the play is too tempting not to try.
Cool list; to me the best flex spots to add in something are Bramble crush and overgrowth if you are keeping it mono green. Red opens up a lot of options obviously, maybe add in some Harmonize or Garruk, Primal Hunter for some draw to refill?
So the talk of a land destruction deck using the Devotion core got me brewing over the weekend. This is the list I came up with, I think it has all necessary pieces but needs tuning.
The biggest problem I have run into is what to do with big mana if you don't have any loops going. But man turn 3 Plow Under on the play is too tempting not to try.
That actually looks really good on paper. Plow Under is one of those "unfair 8th Edition cards" that hasn't been abused yet. It's a card that puts your opponent so far behind when it resolves. In some cases for decks one resolved Plow Under might as well be good game. I remember the days when it was legal in Standard in 2003-2005 and it was just flat out miserable to play against.
Deus of Calamity and Vorinclex seem questionable for the high-end finishers. It seems like Worldbreaker and Terastodon would fit the bill better. Worldbreaker gives you inevitability and a great blocker while Terastodon provides immediate impact on the board.
Harmonize will definitely end up in the 75. You're right about Bramblecrush being a weak link but I feel (keyword feel) like it is needed in order to keep the CMC curve a bit more diverse, especially for the LD suite. Beasts Within is obviously better in that regard but feeding them too many creatures could backfire as chumping/trading hurts Devotion.
As a side note and unabashed self promotion, everyone should go check out my deck narration of the walker devotion list in the personal writing forum. It's the first of a few decks I plan on writing about, and hopefully more people will be inspired to contribute with their decks! Check it out here.
The biggest change was putting Elvish Visionary in the place of Burning-Tree Emissary. I am trying to see if the loss in potential speed is made up by the card advantage...this deck thrives on overwhelming the opponent; so the more card draw the better...I just have to make certain it ends up being fast enough. I'm fairly certain it is given my recent testing. Everything else is somewhat similar to versions before, I'm pretty much down to what cards I think work best in the "Walker Combo" deck giveny experience...it's just a matter of the assortment
I'm super interested to see how Oath of Nissa ends up in Modern. I will probably play the card in every deck I play (it seems especially broken in Green Devotion...) but I can understand where others may not.
It's an incredibly powerful card; but the drawback is larger than I initially anticipated. While a vast majority of cards in decks like ours (and other green decks) tend to be creatures, lands, and/or walkers; most of the "business spells" (Primal Command, Tooth and Nail, Genesis Wave, Harmonize and even Cloudstone Curio) get filtered to the bottom....makes for interesting deck building considerations.
Oath has been pretty amazing so far. Im gonna start testing 3 karns as my win con (as well as the infinite walker combo), instead of Genesis Wave, and see if its fetchability makes it better. Genesis Wave typically has to be at least 7 mana for it to be good anyhow. To make sure I always have a nykthos and a karn ready to go, I'm putting in the Eidolon enchantment shell. It draws insane amounts of cards when its out, and if cloudstone curio is out, then all the better.
@CurdBros What is your primary win-con in that deck without any fatties other than genesis? I see wolf run and garruk's overrun ability, but is there more to it that I'm not seeing?
That actually is a really interesting idea Dirtgurgle. I have cast Genesis Wave at X=3 before; but you're absolutely right that you're not happy casting it before then....
I may have to try that. Kinda works brilliantly with the Genesis Hydra's as well...I may have to try that as well. Gives us added interaction as well.
You don't get the "oops I win" games; but the only real question that matters is "how many games in which I cast a Karn Liberatedand lose would I have won with a Genesis Wave?" (and to an extent the opposite)...If that number is extremely low than its probably worth it just due to the added fetch-ability. Truly interesting idea. I'm certainly going to test it. Could be the next step in the deck...Just copy pasting the list from above and making the appropriate changes; the main deck would look something like:
** The board would probably change a little bit. I added 2x Karn Liberated and an additional Genesis Hydra. I just figured with it being as fetchable as it is; that perhaps 2 copies was enough. I may be wrong there.
There is an argument to go back to Burning-Tree Emissary at that point to help facilitate more turn 3 (and potentially turn 2) Karns...but that is an argument for another day
@CurdBros What is your primary win-con in that deck without any fatties other than genesis? I see wolf run and garruk's overrun ability, but is there more to it that I'm not seeing?
The win-cons in the game-one main deck include:
1. The infinite combo.
2. Kessig Wolf Run
3. Garruk's Overrun
4. Just attacking for 20 damage with a "wide" army.
5. Attacking with large Genesis Hydra's.
A majority of the games will be won through the combo; but you'd be surprised how often you can just attack them to death. Early Garruk's and Xenagos's make a TON of 2/2 Haste and 3/3 Tokens...and the board builds up quite quickly. Also, Genesis Hydra can get perpetually bigger as you get more mana and can bounce it (if the game drags on); so you can end up with some pretty big bodies.
You don't have to "break" Hydra for it to be good. You win a ton games just by making a big creature and providing another body on the board through it. As someone that's spent a long time playing with the card, it's solid if it finds you anything at all. It, in conjunction with Oath, is nice. As you can find it with an Oath, and it can find you an Oath, providing you with additional value in the matchups where you want it.
As far as Oath itself, yes, it pushes powerful non-creature cards to the bottom. But all the deckbuilding consideration you need is add more fetchlands for more shuffle effects. I run 8, and the only time I've disappointed with an Oath is when it completely bricks, which has happened 2 times in all the matches I've played lately tuning my list. In conjunction with Courser, you can even chose to time it. See a card you need THIS turn? Play your Oath. See a Primal Command on top? Hold it a turn. It's powerful because it gives you CHOICES, which is something this color has lacked before. Unless you're already overloaded on tutor effects or don't have at least 45 "hits" with it, I'd highly recommend playing it.
You don't have to "break" Hydra for it to be good. You win a ton games just by making a big creature and providing another body on the board through it. As someone that's spent a long time playing with the card, it's solid if it finds you anything at all. It, in conjunction with Oath, is nice. As you can find it with an Oath, and it can find you an Oath, providing you with additional value in the matchups where you want it.
As far as Oath itself, yes, it pushes powerful non-creature cards to the bottom. But all the deckbuilding consideration you need is add more fetchlands for more shuffle effects. I run 8, and the only time I've disappointed with an Oath is when it completely bricks, which has happened 2 times in all the matches I've played lately tuning my list. In conjunction with Courser, you can even chose to time it. See a card you need THIS turn? Play your Oath. See a Primal Command on top? Hold it a turn. It's powerful because it gives you CHOICES, which is something this color has lacked before. Unless you're already overloaded on tutor effects or don't have at least 45 "hits" with it, I'd highly recommend playing it.
I didn't mean to suggest that Genesis Hydra wan't a good card. I apologize if it came off that way. On the contrary, I've been championing the card since it's printing and have it in my current list. I just said I wanted to find a way to "break" in the sense that when you cast a Genesis Wave for X=7 the game is pretty much over. I'm sure that there have been a few games where it was an unusually bad wave and I didn't win on the spot...but 90%+ you will win the game on the same turn you cast the Wave for that much. Winning on the same turn can be very important against combo decks, burn, infect, etc...that was my only true concern.
Hydra often doesn't have that same power (as you are only digging for the single card and you don't often get the benefit of the large body/devotion until the next turn). There are many times where I will plan ahead if I have access to a ton of mana (i.e. I will make sure to leave 6+ mana and use the rest to dig for a Cloudstone Curio, then bounce the Hydra, re-cast it and dig for the second Walker to assemble the infinite combo the same turn...) but you just don't get the "oops I win" situations you get with Wave. That's really all I meant.
I truly wanted to replace the Waves in my deck with Hydra's given all of the positives (fetch-able by Oath and Command, can provide a large body, is "bounce-able" via Curio, adds 2-devotion, etc.); but I was hoping to find a way to really talk myself into it because the raw power of Genesis Wave wins a lot of games by itself...I'll be ecstatic if the "Karn in place of Wave" idea pans out (as Genesis Hydra is fantastic at digging for Karn Liberated and you get Karn's effect the same turn you hit him. Only time and testing will tell.
I also would advise everyone to play Oath of Nissa. I will be playing it is a 4-of in pretty much every deck I will ever play It is the best card printed for Green Devotion since Theros. I was just interested to find that it's "downside" had a greater effect than I had initially thought. You're absolutely right that you can use fetch lands to get such cards back out from under the rest. It does require a lot of fetches; but in many cases it's probably worth it.
The Karn Liberated main switch has worked out thus far. I've only got about 30 games in thus far, but I actually ended up winning 2 games I would have lost with a Wave (as I was able to exile an Olivia Volderan in one and a Pyromancer's Asscension in the other) and have only lost one game where I would have won with a Wave (as they were able to kill me the following turn with a top deck Bolt and the three other creatures on board....Since my only real concern was losing games I would have otherwise won and/or slowing the deck...so far so good!
I did go up to 20 lands for the time being (as we go up the curve a little more in this version). I really like where it is at though. It focuses heavily on the things I think devotion decks should do:
1. Cards should either ramp or draw cards (i.e. be a 2-for-1 or more). In this case, Arbor Elf, Birds, Utopia Sprawl, etc. ramp while Visionary, Courser, Witness, Abundant Growth, Oath, and the walkers are all at minimum 2-for-1's.
2. More important that having as many symbols on the battlefield as possible is ensuring you actually have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in play to take advantage of them. Between Oath, Visionary, Courser, and Abundant Growth all digging for lands we often can find a Nykthos within the first few turns (especially when we can loop them with Curio).
The added interaction has actually been quite nice. It has already positively effected three game one's (vs. Jund, Infect, and Storm). I miss the "showing off" you get to do with Wave (where you string them together and play your entire deck ) but as long as I continue to find that the deck wins at an equal or greater rate without it than I'll just have to deal with the loss. Ha.
Of course a card here or there may change (i.e. play 3-of one card instead of 2, etc.) but the deck feels right. I was able to get my Oaths online as well; so I can play it online soon! I've still got a lot of testing to make sure Karn should be in the place of the Waves; but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will work out. I'll update after my next 60 games or so and especially after another 100 games.
The Karn Liberated main switch has worked out thus far. I've only got about 30 games in thus far, but I actually ended up winning 2 games I would have lost with a Wave (as I was able to exile an Olivia Volderan in one and a Pyromancer's Asscension in the other) and have only lost one game where I would have won with a Wave (as they were able to kill me the following turn with a top deck Bolt and the three other creatures on board....Since my only real concern was losing games I would have otherwise won and/or slowing the deck...so far so good!
I did go up to 20 lands for the time being (as we go up the curve a little more in this version). I really like where it is at though. It focuses heavily on the things I think devotion decks should do:
1. Cards should either ramp or draw cards (i.e. be a 2-for-1 or more). In this case, Arbor Elf, Birds, Utopia Sprawl, etc. ramp while Visionary, Courser, Witness, Abundant Growth, Oath, and the walkers are all at minimum 2-for-1's.
2. More important that having as many symbols on the battlefield as possible is ensuring you actually have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in play to take advantage of them. Between Oath, Visionary, Courser, and Abundant Growth all digging for lands we often can find a Nykthos within the first few turns (especially when we can loop them with Curio).
The added interaction has actually been quite nice. It has already positively effected three game one's (vs. Jund, Infect, and Storm). I miss the "showing off" you get to do with Wave (where you string them together and play your entire deck ) but as long as I continue to find that the deck wins at an equal or greater rate without it than I'll just have to deal with the loss. Ha.
Of course a card here or there may change (i.e. play 3-of one card instead of 2, etc.) but the deck feels right. I was able to get my Oaths online as well; so I can play it online soon! I've still got a lot of testing to make sure Karn should be in the place of the Waves; but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will work out. I'll update after my next 60 games or so and especially after another 100 games.
How do you feel about having both xenagos and karn in the same deck? As good as before or much worse?
This and how did you find lack of the primal commands in the main and only 1 eternal witness in main? To me those cards are most crucial ones in whole deck.
Went 13-0 in my 2 * 4-rounds ~20 players and 5-0 in my ~60 player tournaments with karn version of the deck. I would say most of my wins came from primal command grind, some of karn/witness grind, and only some of them from combo.
I like having the ability to "go infinite" easily; and Xenagos is often very easy to play in the deck (as he often costs 0-2 mana once played and triggered because he creates mana himself).
What list are you playing? I'm excited to hear how well you've done with it!!! If you get a chance; please post the deck list so others can decide if it is the right choice for them too. My "Karn" versions are like 15 pages ago; so it would be great to re-post a similar version now.
In terms of Primal Command and Eternal Witness; I was struggling with getting all of the interactions I liked into the main deck. I did like the very interactive nature of having both the Primal Command + Eternal Witness combo along with Karn Liberated in the same deck; however it didn't seem to play as well with Cloudstone Curio and Oath of Nissa as I wanted...I kinda felt like I was putting to distinct decks together. There was the more combo-oriented deck that was fast and overwhelming and the more interactive version that was interactive and punishing.
The "Fast" Xenagos version tended to play:
1. More creatures (i.e. Played Birds of Paradise instead of Fertile Ground)
2. More "straight card draw" rather than "roundabout 2-for-1's) (i.e. Elvish Visionary compared to Eternal Witness).
3. More Cloudstone Curio loops (due to it's use of lower CMC creatures and enchantments with ETB effects).
So basically I was stuck trying to make two decks work as one. My initial thought was just play one or the other (whichever proved better in testing); but they both ended up winning at pretty similar rates (although having slightly different good and bad match ups). After a while, however, I thought, "what if I could just side in to the "Karn/Interactive Version" against the opponents that the "Fast/Xenagos version struggled with"? That is pretty much where I have been since.
As you can see, I play 3x Primal Command and an additional 2x Eternal Witness in the board (along with other interactive cards). This allows me to side into a more interactive version (either focusing on land-hate or creature-hate).
Having Karn in the main is actually something quite recent (as it was brought up by Dirtgurgle that Karn Liberated may be just as effective as Genesis Wave in the "Xenagos" verson. This would be perfect (as the more the two decks can be similar the better as it allows for more sideboard cards...and given the interaction between Oath of Nissa, Genesis Hydra, and Karn Liberated).
Like I said, I'm not 100% on the number of copies of each cards; and it's going to take a lot more games to make sure Karn works instead of Wave in the "fast/Xenagos" version; but I've got my fingers crossed. I would be VERY interested; however, to see the deck you're playing (as the "Karn/Interactive" version is really well positioned right now with all of the Aggro/Linear decks running around (and the resurgence of control given our card advantage and use of Genesis Hydra).
The only way I could think to fix this was to try to allow the best of both worlds for games 2 and 3; and decide which deck to "start with" in game one....So I started with the "speed" version in game one; and allowed myself a way to side into the more interactive version.
I'm going to try out this "cantrip only" list to see if it's more resilient. Basically everything replaces itself - I'm not 100% sold on the Eidolon package, or even Boon satyr. I like the idea of just accruing board presence with dorks and casting a big Genesis Hydra, or just casting a Craterhoof.
The genesis of this list being the fact that we want Oath of Nissa to hit gas, and when our best gas is Curio or Genesis Wave, that's not particularly great.
I'm going to try out this "cantrip only" list to see if it's more resilient. Basically everything replaces itself - I'm not 100% sold on the Eidolon package, or even Boon satyr. I like the idea of just accruing board presence with dorks and casting a big Genesis Hydra, or just casting a Craterhoof.
The genesis of this list being the fact that we want Oath of Nissa to hit gas, and when our best gas is Curio or Genesis Wave, that's not particularly great.
I think this idea is great! I agree that it is nice for Oath of Nissa to be able to hit your "Gas" spells too. It's something I've been working on as well. I don't think we can dismiss spells like Primal Command, Genesis Wave, and Tooth and Nail altogether (as they historically have been among the most powerful things we can do in green); but it is certainly worth testing to see if we can make cards like Genesis Hydra work given the added benefit of Oath of NIssa. Also, Genesis Hydra is at its absolute best when it can become a 3-for-1 early (i.e. at X=2 hitting an Elvish Visionary giving you two bodies, 3-devotion, AND another card in hand) while also having a huge permanent (like Craterhoof Behemoth) to hit late...so you have a great recipe to make the most of it.
I really hope this list works out well. I've tried to make Eidolon of Blossoms work in the past; and I felt like I got extremely close; but you just need so much synergy to get over the "4-CMC 2/2" hump. I think Oath of Nissa may be all that was needed! Great list. Solid, has a purpose, and all of the cards go toward that purpose. With the right sideboard (there are plenty of great enchantment options including Oath of Chandra, Seal of Primordium, Blood Moon, etc. along with numerous white enchantment answer cards if you got into white...so you could still have the board fit the theme. Really cool list.
Went 13-0 in my 2 * 4-rounds ~20 players and 5-0 in my ~60 player tournaments with karn version of the deck. I would say most of my wins came from primal command grind, some of karn/witness grind, and only some of them from combo.
Hey Pedros. Sorry I didn't initially "quote" you. As I was saying, please do let us know the list you used to get to these spectacular results. I'm trying to post as many strong "Walker Devotion" lists as possible. I assume it is similar to the "Karn" version I was playing for a while (with of course your improvements); but with results like that many are going to want to see the list.
And you are right that it could be difficult to fit both walkers in the same main. I still have some testing to do. It seems to be working thus far. It may be cleaner to run only one of them (i.e. run 3 copies of only one "secondary" walker in the main deck) depending on how "combo centric" I want the deck to be (as each walker does different things). I still have to test to find out; but I do like the idea of being able to make the deck work without Genesis Wave if at all possible.
I think the highest impact sideboard cards are white - I want to cast one spell, typically a permanent that buys me enough time to close out the game. Rest in Peace, Stony Silence, even Suppression Field seems strong here. Maybe even Circle of Protection Red for burn.
Fun ideas running around here... hard to keep up with it all. I _really_ like the plow under deck. I think I'm going to have to figure out how to board into a configuration like that.
Craterhoof is pretty much a one card combo with any kind of board presence... I love how focused Gogg's list is.
CurdBros, are you finding Bonfire to be fast enough against infect and affinity? Those are the matchups I'm really struggling to find a good sideboard plan for.
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Cool list; to me the best flex spots to add in something are Bramble crush and overgrowth if you are keeping it mono green. Red opens up a lot of options obviously, maybe add in some Harmonize or Garruk, Primal Hunter for some draw to refill?
That actually looks really good on paper. Plow Under is one of those "unfair 8th Edition cards" that hasn't been abused yet. It's a card that puts your opponent so far behind when it resolves. In some cases for decks one resolved Plow Under might as well be good game. I remember the days when it was legal in Standard in 2003-2005 and it was just flat out miserable to play against.
Deus of Calamity and Vorinclex seem questionable for the high-end finishers. It seems like Worldbreaker and Terastodon would fit the bill better. Worldbreaker gives you inevitability and a great blocker while Terastodon provides immediate impact on the board.
As a side note and unabashed self promotion, everyone should go check out my deck narration of the walker devotion list in the personal writing forum. It's the first of a few decks I plan on writing about, and hopefully more people will be inspired to contribute with their decks!
Check it out here.
I've been testing as extensively as I could these last few nights; and right now the list I'm on is:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
2x Genesis Hydra
Enchantment/Artifact
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Abundant Growth
4x Cloudstone Curio
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Xenagos, the Reveler
Instant/Sorcery
3x Genesis Wave
Lands
8x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Oath of Chandra
2x Eternal Witness
3x Primal Command
2x Beast Within
2x Flex
The biggest change was putting Elvish Visionary in the place of Burning-Tree Emissary. I am trying to see if the loss in potential speed is made up by the card advantage...this deck thrives on overwhelming the opponent; so the more card draw the better...I just have to make certain it ends up being fast enough. I'm fairly certain it is given my recent testing. Everything else is somewhat similar to versions before, I'm pretty much down to what cards I think work best in the "Walker Combo" deck giveny experience...it's just a matter of the assortment
It's an incredibly powerful card; but the drawback is larger than I initially anticipated. While a vast majority of cards in decks like ours (and other green decks) tend to be creatures, lands, and/or walkers; most of the "business spells" (Primal Command, Tooth and Nail, Genesis Wave, Harmonize and even Cloudstone Curio) get filtered to the bottom....makes for interesting deck building considerations.
I was trying to find ways to "break" Genesis Hydra due to its ability to be tutored/dug for via cards like Summoners Pact, Primal Command, and Oath of Nissa...but I haven't figured it out yet. You can draw a ton with Garruk, Primal Hunter and/or Prime Speaker Zegana...but I was hoping to find a way for the game to just be over at a Hydra for x=8 or more.
World Breaker is another card that I could see using soon (especially since I can bounce and re-cast it )
Sylvan Primordial because of exile etc? Sylvan can even hit walkers right?
I may have to try that. Kinda works brilliantly with the Genesis Hydra's as well...I may have to try that as well. Gives us added interaction as well.
You don't get the "oops I win" games; but the only real question that matters is "how many games in which I cast a Karn Liberated and lose would I have won with a Genesis Wave?" (and to an extent the opposite)...If that number is extremely low than its probably worth it just due to the added fetch-ability. Truly interesting idea. I'm certainly going to test it. Could be the next step in the deck...Just copy pasting the list from above and making the appropriate changes; the main deck would look something like:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Genesis Hydra
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Abundant Growth
4x Cloudstone Curio
Planeswalker
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Karn Liberated
8x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
** The board would probably change a little bit. I added 2x Karn Liberated and an additional Genesis Hydra. I just figured with it being as fetchable as it is; that perhaps 2 copies was enough. I may be wrong there.
There is an argument to go back to Burning-Tree Emissary at that point to help facilitate more turn 3 (and potentially turn 2) Karns...but that is an argument for another day
The win-cons in the game-one main deck include:
1. The infinite combo.
2. Kessig Wolf Run
3. Garruk's Overrun
4. Just attacking for 20 damage with a "wide" army.
5. Attacking with large Genesis Hydra's.
A majority of the games will be won through the combo; but you'd be surprised how often you can just attack them to death. Early Garruk's and Xenagos's make a TON of 2/2 Haste and 3/3 Tokens...and the board builds up quite quickly. Also, Genesis Hydra can get perpetually bigger as you get more mana and can bounce it (if the game drags on); so you can end up with some pretty big bodies.
As far as Oath itself, yes, it pushes powerful non-creature cards to the bottom. But all the deckbuilding consideration you need is add more fetchlands for more shuffle effects. I run 8, and the only time I've disappointed with an Oath is when it completely bricks, which has happened 2 times in all the matches I've played lately tuning my list. In conjunction with Courser, you can even chose to time it. See a card you need THIS turn? Play your Oath. See a Primal Command on top? Hold it a turn. It's powerful because it gives you CHOICES, which is something this color has lacked before. Unless you're already overloaded on tutor effects or don't have at least 45 "hits" with it, I'd highly recommend playing it.
I didn't mean to suggest that Genesis Hydra wan't a good card. I apologize if it came off that way. On the contrary, I've been championing the card since it's printing and have it in my current list. I just said I wanted to find a way to "break" in the sense that when you cast a Genesis Wave for X=7 the game is pretty much over. I'm sure that there have been a few games where it was an unusually bad wave and I didn't win on the spot...but 90%+ you will win the game on the same turn you cast the Wave for that much. Winning on the same turn can be very important against combo decks, burn, infect, etc...that was my only true concern.
Hydra often doesn't have that same power (as you are only digging for the single card and you don't often get the benefit of the large body/devotion until the next turn). There are many times where I will plan ahead if I have access to a ton of mana (i.e. I will make sure to leave 6+ mana and use the rest to dig for a Cloudstone Curio, then bounce the Hydra, re-cast it and dig for the second Walker to assemble the infinite combo the same turn...) but you just don't get the "oops I win" situations you get with Wave. That's really all I meant.
I truly wanted to replace the Waves in my deck with Hydra's given all of the positives (fetch-able by Oath and Command, can provide a large body, is "bounce-able" via Curio, adds 2-devotion, etc.); but I was hoping to find a way to really talk myself into it because the raw power of Genesis Wave wins a lot of games by itself...I'll be ecstatic if the "Karn in place of Wave" idea pans out (as Genesis Hydra is fantastic at digging for Karn Liberated and you get Karn's effect the same turn you hit him. Only time and testing will tell.
I also would advise everyone to play Oath of Nissa. I will be playing it is a 4-of in pretty much every deck I will ever play It is the best card printed for Green Devotion since Theros. I was just interested to find that it's "downside" had a greater effect than I had initially thought. You're absolutely right that you can use fetch lands to get such cards back out from under the rest. It does require a lot of fetches; but in many cases it's probably worth it.
I did go up to 20 lands for the time being (as we go up the curve a little more in this version). I really like where it is at though. It focuses heavily on the things I think devotion decks should do:
1. Cards should either ramp or draw cards (i.e. be a 2-for-1 or more). In this case, Arbor Elf, Birds, Utopia Sprawl, etc. ramp while Visionary, Courser, Witness, Abundant Growth, Oath, and the walkers are all at minimum 2-for-1's.
2. More important that having as many symbols on the battlefield as possible is ensuring you actually have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in play to take advantage of them. Between Oath, Visionary, Courser, and Abundant Growth all digging for lands we often can find a Nykthos within the first few turns (especially when we can loop them with Curio).
The added interaction has actually been quite nice. It has already positively effected three game one's (vs. Jund, Infect, and Storm). I miss the "showing off" you get to do with Wave (where you string them together and play your entire deck ) but as long as I continue to find that the deck wins at an equal or greater rate without it than I'll just have to deal with the loss. Ha.
The current list I'm playing is:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Elvish Visionary
4x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Genesis Hydra
Enchantment/Artifact (14)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Abundant Growth
4x Cloudstone Curio
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Karn Liberated
Land (20)
8x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Oath of Chandra
2x Fulminator Mage
3x Primal Command
2x Eternal Witness
2x Seal of Primordium
1x Thragtusk
1x Magus of the Moon
Of course a card here or there may change (i.e. play 3-of one card instead of 2, etc.) but the deck feels right. I was able to get my Oaths online as well; so I can play it online soon! I've still got a lot of testing to make sure Karn should be in the place of the Waves; but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will work out. I'll update after my next 60 games or so and especially after another 100 games.
How do you feel about having both xenagos and karn in the same deck? As good as before or much worse?
This and how did you find lack of the primal commands in the main and only 1 eternal witness in main? To me those cards are most crucial ones in whole deck.
Went 13-0 in my 2 * 4-rounds ~20 players and 5-0 in my ~60 player tournaments with karn version of the deck. I would say most of my wins came from primal command grind, some of karn/witness grind, and only some of them from combo.
I like having the ability to "go infinite" easily; and Xenagos is often very easy to play in the deck (as he often costs 0-2 mana once played and triggered because he creates mana himself).
What list are you playing? I'm excited to hear how well you've done with it!!! If you get a chance; please post the deck list so others can decide if it is the right choice for them too. My "Karn" versions are like 15 pages ago; so it would be great to re-post a similar version now.
In terms of Primal Command and Eternal Witness; I was struggling with getting all of the interactions I liked into the main deck. I did like the very interactive nature of having both the Primal Command + Eternal Witness combo along with Karn Liberated in the same deck; however it didn't seem to play as well with Cloudstone Curio and Oath of Nissa as I wanted...I kinda felt like I was putting to distinct decks together. There was the more combo-oriented deck that was fast and overwhelming and the more interactive version that was interactive and punishing.
The "Fast" Xenagos version tended to play:
1. More creatures (i.e. Played Birds of Paradise instead of Fertile Ground)
2. More "straight card draw" rather than "roundabout 2-for-1's) (i.e. Elvish Visionary compared to Eternal Witness).
3. More Cloudstone Curio loops (due to it's use of lower CMC creatures and enchantments with ETB effects).
So basically I was stuck trying to make two decks work as one. My initial thought was just play one or the other (whichever proved better in testing); but they both ended up winning at pretty similar rates (although having slightly different good and bad match ups). After a while, however, I thought, "what if I could just side in to the "Karn/Interactive Version" against the opponents that the "Fast/Xenagos version struggled with"? That is pretty much where I have been since.
As you can see, I play 3x Primal Command and an additional 2x Eternal Witness in the board (along with other interactive cards). This allows me to side into a more interactive version (either focusing on land-hate or creature-hate).
Having Karn in the main is actually something quite recent (as it was brought up by Dirtgurgle that Karn Liberated may be just as effective as Genesis Wave in the "Xenagos" verson. This would be perfect (as the more the two decks can be similar the better as it allows for more sideboard cards...and given the interaction between Oath of Nissa, Genesis Hydra, and Karn Liberated).
Like I said, I'm not 100% on the number of copies of each cards; and it's going to take a lot more games to make sure Karn works instead of Wave in the "fast/Xenagos" version; but I've got my fingers crossed. I would be VERY interested; however, to see the deck you're playing (as the "Karn/Interactive" version is really well positioned right now with all of the Aggro/Linear decks running around (and the resurgence of control given our card advantage and use of Genesis Hydra).
The only way I could think to fix this was to try to allow the best of both worlds for games 2 and 3; and decide which deck to "start with" in game one....So I started with the "speed" version in game one; and allowed myself a way to side into the more interactive version.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Eidolon of Blossoms
4x Boon Satyr
4x Genesis Hydra
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (4)
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
Land (20)
16x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
I'm going to try out this "cantrip only" list to see if it's more resilient. Basically everything replaces itself - I'm not 100% sold on the Eidolon package, or even Boon satyr. I like the idea of just accruing board presence with dorks and casting a big Genesis Hydra, or just casting a Craterhoof.
The genesis of this list being the fact that we want Oath of Nissa to hit gas, and when our best gas is Curio or Genesis Wave, that's not particularly great.
I think this idea is great! I agree that it is nice for Oath of Nissa to be able to hit your "Gas" spells too. It's something I've been working on as well. I don't think we can dismiss spells like Primal Command, Genesis Wave, and Tooth and Nail altogether (as they historically have been among the most powerful things we can do in green); but it is certainly worth testing to see if we can make cards like Genesis Hydra work given the added benefit of Oath of NIssa. Also, Genesis Hydra is at its absolute best when it can become a 3-for-1 early (i.e. at X=2 hitting an Elvish Visionary giving you two bodies, 3-devotion, AND another card in hand) while also having a huge permanent (like Craterhoof Behemoth) to hit late...so you have a great recipe to make the most of it.
I really hope this list works out well. I've tried to make Eidolon of Blossoms work in the past; and I felt like I got extremely close; but you just need so much synergy to get over the "4-CMC 2/2" hump. I think Oath of Nissa may be all that was needed! Great list. Solid, has a purpose, and all of the cards go toward that purpose. With the right sideboard (there are plenty of great enchantment options including Oath of Chandra, Seal of Primordium, Blood Moon, etc. along with numerous white enchantment answer cards if you got into white...so you could still have the board fit the theme. Really cool list.
Hey Pedros. Sorry I didn't initially "quote" you. As I was saying, please do let us know the list you used to get to these spectacular results. I'm trying to post as many strong "Walker Devotion" lists as possible. I assume it is similar to the "Karn" version I was playing for a while (with of course your improvements); but with results like that many are going to want to see the list.
And you are right that it could be difficult to fit both walkers in the same main. I still have some testing to do. It seems to be working thus far. It may be cleaner to run only one of them (i.e. run 3 copies of only one "secondary" walker in the main deck) depending on how "combo centric" I want the deck to be (as each walker does different things). I still have to test to find out; but I do like the idea of being able to make the deck work without Genesis Wave if at all possible.
Devoted Druid + Quillspike...it could work There is also the Devoted Druid x2 and Ezuri, Renegade Leader combo too. I know from experience Elves work well with devotion...so there is certainly potential there.
A good starting (like a "rough draft") point would be:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Devoted Druid
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Eternal Witness
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Regal Force
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Utopia Sprawl
Planeswalker (4)
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
Instant/Sorcery (4)
4x Primal Command
Lands (20)
8x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Stomping Ground
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Kessig Wolf Run
You could of course run Cavern of Souls in the board of course.
Craterhoof is pretty much a one card combo with any kind of board presence... I love how focused Gogg's list is.
CurdBros, are you finding Bonfire to be fast enough against infect and affinity? Those are the matchups I'm really struggling to find a good sideboard plan for.