Sam Black said Oath will bring Green Devotion to a tier deck in Modern! I'll post a traditional list today (as it is really just as good as any still).
I'm about 80 games through my hundred with Walker Devotion what I call the "Red" version (with Xenagos). It's unreal with Oath adds so the archetype. It's faster, smoother, and more resilient all at the same time due to the addition of a full set of oaths (and the use of Genesis Wave...but I digress)
I'll post bunches this evening/afternoon when I get back! I'm so excited the archetype we all love got mentioned by someone as big as Sam Black!
Yes, you need enough mana with a Nykthos activation to make it work. That's why it's a cornercase but it's certainly been good. And yes, I do play it in a deck with at least 3 Witness and 3 Command.
Essentialy it's like this;
1) Tap Nykthos for mana. Untap Nykthos with Garruk 1 and make more mana.
2) Cast Garruk 2, sac the Garruk 1. Untap Nykthos and make more mana
3) Cast Witness, get back Garruk 1.
4) Cast Garruk 1, saccing Garruk 2. Bounce witness with Sabretooth. Start the loop.
5) Gain at least 1 mana with each loop. Use a 'pay-off' card in your hand or GY (get it back with Witness)(or in play Kessig Wolfrun or starting bouncing and casting Elvish Visionary like crazy).
Toughest part of this deck (or should I say concept) is figuring out which is best. Online might even be different from offline due to clicks (much like online playing Melira/Company is very hard to do).
What a cool loop! It's funny, cuz it often sounds like a lot to say "you need X devotion, 2 walkers, and a saber tooth.." But in a deck with a ton of card draw, Genesis waves, and eternal witness...it's actually much easier than you think on paper the point of the deck is to grow devotion quickly, and most/many decks play s full set of Garruk and Witness...so I could definitely see you loop coming up; most especially post wave. Cool idea!
CurdBros, before testing with Oath (as I need to do so a lot couse will travel to GP Bologna with GreenDevo) I need a pre-oath deck for this weekend. Prefer Karn planeswalker version. What was the most successful version?
As for Oath of Nissa - imo we dont need Eidolon of Blossoms for it to be good, however it might spawn totally new archetype with Herald of the Pantheon, Courser, Eidolon and probably some white enchantments such as starfield of nyx or angel enchantments.
CurdBros, before testing with Oath (as I need to do so a lot couse will travel to GP Bologna with GreenDevo) I need a pre-oath deck for this weekend. Prefer Karn planeswalker version. What was the most successful version?
As for Oath of Nissa - imo we dont need Eidolon of Blossoms for it to be good, however it might spawn totally new archetype with Herald of the Pantheon, Courser, Eidolon and probably some white enchantments such as starfield of nyx or angel enchantments.
I completely agree with you. I don't think Eidolon is necessary at all. Oath of Nissa can literally be ported into most lists and make it better (with some other minor changes due to the enhancements Oath makes to a deck). Traditional devotion decks, Walker Combo, Walker non-Combo, some Tooth and Nail (although to a lesser extent). Having said that...it may be the card needed to finally make Eidolon work in a competitive deck.
Another noob question. You keep saying with oath the deck becomes a tier deck. Do you mean tier 1? I thought it was considered a tier 2 deck. I'm just unfamiliar with the terminology and curious about it.
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Standard:GR Eldrazi Ramp
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
I love the addition of Raging Ravine. Made me think that lists with Boartusk Liege should probably run at least one!
I will definitely include this as a one of in my build. With a Liege out, it becomes a 6/6 when it attacks! I would be hesitant to put 2 lands that enter tapped into my deck, it has so few to begin with and need a forest asap. Maybe Oath of Nissa has changed that though...
I have also been considering putting a one of Dryad Arbor. I found it too risky before, as loosing one of my lands was too crucial too me at the time. However, the fact that this card can become a 2/2 with either Sarkhan Vol or Boar-Tusk Liege makes it seem appealing. Also, because this deck has so many larger threats faster than before, I'm hoping it will less likely be targeted. These man-lands may give this deck the little push it needs for consistent, fast wins.
Could Dryad Arbor possibly be useful in a Cloudstone Curio build? I haven't played it before, so I'm not sure if it could really be that useful. I suppose it could at least return an Eternal Witness to hand.
Could Dryad Arbor possibly be useful in a Cloudstone Curio build? I haven't played it before, so I'm not sure if it could really be that useful. I suppose it could at least return an Eternal Witness to hand.
Yes it could, as a way to trigger Cloudstone Curio via your land drop for the turn. I think it only triggers once though, as it checks for permanent type as its valid targets. I.E. Dryad Arbor can bounce a creature or a land, but not both.
I was talking to my sister about this today, as one of my favorite tricks in Abzan Company (the version I run runs Dryad Arbor as my 23rd land) is to fetch for Arbor via a fetchland to trigger Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. I was discussing with her the possibility of running a "Knightfall" devotion deck as I believe that the Retreat to Coralhelm is essentially Lotus Cobra 5-8 in the Bant shell. I was interested in maybe running a Bant Company list, or a Gwu Devotion list exploring making triggers with Anafenza and some of Oath of Gatewatch's new landfall mechanics. It may just be a reason to put counters on all the things, and lose track of triggers, but it could be fun.
What do you guys think of the cards that have been spoiled so far?
Beside obvious Oath of Nissa, I really like Bonds of Mortality and Embodiment of Insight. The second one can add a wincon out of a genesis wave that "whiffs" hitting too many lands, and just landing+Prime puts 9 attacking power with haste. And while they obviously "die to bolt", note that those attacking and defending power can't be Abrupt Decayed or Maelstrom Pulsed.
Another noob question. You keep saying with oath the deck becomes a tier deck. Do you mean tier 1? I thought it was considered a tier 2 deck. I'm just unfamiliar with the terminology and curious about it.
Most likely still tier 2 for a while. It's SUPER tough to get a deck into Tier 1 status. I'm perfectly happy with tier 2 though :).
CurdBros what's the current Walker devotion list look like (maybe including Oath of Nissa)? I'm starting to collect pieces and want to double check if I have forgotten anything.
Could Dryad Arbor possibly be useful in a Cloudstone Curio build? I haven't played it before, so I'm not sure if it could really be that useful. I suppose it could at least return an Eternal Witness to hand.
Yes it could, as a way to trigger Cloudstone Curio via your land drop for the turn. I think it only triggers once though, as it checks for permanent type as its valid targets. I.E. Dryad Arbor can bounce a creature or a land, but not both.
I was talking to my sister about this today, as one of my favorite tricks in Abzan Company (the version I run runs Dryad Arbor as my 23rd land) is to fetch for Arbor via a fetchland to trigger Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. I was discussing with her the possibility of running a "Knightfall" devotion deck as I believe that the Retreat to Coralhelm is essentially Lotus Cobra 5-8 in the Bant shell. I was interested in maybe running a Bant Company list, or a Gwu Devotion list exploring making triggers with Anafenza and some of Oath of Gatewatch's new landfall mechanics. It may just be a reason to put counters on all the things, and lose track of triggers, but it could be fun.
What a fun (and potentialy extremely powerful) idea!
I looked at Dryad Arbor for some time (it was even in the list for a short period). It has a ton of synergy (Xenagos counts it, can be overrun with Garruk, can be pumped with Wolf Run, bounces card draw creatures with Curio...and even is a Forest for Arbor Elf). My big concern was just that it is really tough to play a land that comes into play tapped. This deck lives and dies on its fast starts (so it can immediately start snowballing)...I just wasn't certain all of the small synergies were worth it. Having said that; there are a LOT of synergies; so I should probably take a second look at it.
Dryad Arbor doesn't enter tapped. I did reread the card though, it has summoning sickness? So it can't tap for mana when it comes out? I assumed it could at least tap for mana the turn it comes out Boo.
Did you guys see the new Zendikar Resurgent ? Probably too expensive even for us in modern, but man do I want to play the deck where it would actually be good.
We have so many different ideas going here it's hard to pull together focus on a single list. I think I have almost all the cards for the walker build, except for the curios... I guess I'm wondering how we can best help each other out. I think Jaishiva and I are working toward similar ends, but there's still a ton of ground to explore.
I love the line of play with multiple Garruk, E Witness, and Temur Sabretooth... I actually played with all of those cards for a while and never considered using them that way. Thanks for pointing it out, Just Me.
I suspect that the Eidolon of Blossoms build that was being discussed a few pages back is the best Tooth and Nail list... it's really a bummer that you can't find Tooth and Nail or Primal Command with Oath of Nissa.
Correct, but it can be used the turn it comes into play to pay for convoke mana, making up for it's "tapped" status with a bit more synergy via Chord of Calling, Return to the Ranks, Stain the Mind, etc. It also works very well coming into play in G/r Devotion that want to use and or abuse Xenagos, the Reveler or Sarkhan Vol.
To be more specific on my last post, I was talking about trying to kick around some ideas to use a whole 4 set of Dryad Arbor (maybe as a second mana dork replacement) to abuse multiple triggers from cards like: Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, Lotus Cobra, Retreat to Coralhelm, Embodiment of Insight, by bringing them into play or recurring them via Knight of the Reliquary, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam. The last especially has some merit, because Tron, Bloom, Scapeshift, and the 3-color fair decks that have greedy mana bases all hate decks that can main board and re-use Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge. I could see a "Bant Taxes" style deck being formed via these interactions if they could be reliably recast.
I've been brainstorming about the R/G aggro deck. I have 2 cards for consideration for all devotion players, the newly spoiled Expedite and Shaman of the Great Hunt.
First Shaman of the Great Hunt, it has a lot of potential for the R/G aggro version of devotion that I'm working on. I can see it possibly being good with a Genesis Wave deck also.
Here's why:
Haste revealed with Genesis Hydra or Wave is awesome.
A large enough Genesis Wave usually nets us enough mana to use his draw card ability, which can be awesome depending on what your board state is like.
Can buff all of your creatures the turn he comes out.
He is card draw in a permanent.
Makes a great top deck! You can attack with him the same turn, an if you have 8 mana (not hard for us) you can use him to draw cards the same turn he comes out.
He gives us another place to put the 4 mana we can possibly generate on turn 2. (You don't have Garruk in hand, but can make 4 mana turn 2, cast him, swing in for 4 and he's a 5/3 at the end of turn 2.)
In this R/G aggro version, we can make a lot of 4 power creatures, which allows for a lot of card draw. With help from Boartusk Liege, Sarkhan Vol, Genesis Hydraand the 4 Leatherback Baloth, we should always have some 4 power creatures around.
It is true that he does nothing for our devotion, dang. (Actually he helps Xenagos become a creature, so not entirely useless.)
I think this card is going to really help the R/G aggro build quite a bit. Right now the theme of this deck is "every creature is a threat that gets bigger over time, hopefully it has haste too!" This deck needs much more testing, but I believe it will become a valid archetype. It is incredibly fast, diverse in its threats, consistent and cheaper in cost than a lot of devotion builds.
Now, Expedite, which is almost the same as Crimson Wisps, except it doesn't turn your creature red. That is important to this deck as it runs Boartusk Liege and some R/G creatures.
Expedite or Wisps could allow you to play an Arbor Elf and use it the same turn, while drawing you a card. Imagine having 2 usable arbor elves on turn 2 with Utopia Sprawl Also, it can give a creature haste off of Genesis Wave if you have the right mana, while still leaving you with a card in hand. It plays great with Genesis Hydra. If we pick up a Xenagos or Nylea from the Hydra you can swing in with a large indestructible haste creatures. Cast a Hydra for 12 and somehow find nothing of importance? For 1 more mana that 10/10 hydra has haste and you still have a card in hand. Now the Hydra is a huge threat the turn it comes out even if it reveals nothing else relevant to the game at the time. You can make Burning-Tree emissary haste for free, getting in damage asap. Another strong point of this aggro deck is making Leatherback baloths haste, which Expedite does too! This card seems like it could be helpful beginning and late game. It thins the deck while staying relevant. I haven't included it in the list I'm about to post, but I'll try to test it eventually.
Boartusk Liege seems too cute for Modern, but I really like the idea of Shaman of the great hunt ! I never read right the ferocious ability, in fact A card for EACH creature above 4 power can be just great. And good synergy with Raging Ravine btw.
I am still torn on the Liege. I agree that it can be a bit lack luster in certain situations, but overall it can really add some power that the traditional versions could be lacking. I have been playing "traditional" since I ran across the original list. Granted, my versions have always leaned a little more towards the red side since I tried to get a little cutsie at times (banefire was a flop lol). Boartusk really adds some punch to our smaller creatures and can help to move some of our creatures out of one-hit wonder status and give them a second chance. Birds of Paradise becomes a constant threat instead of waiting just for a Kessig Wolf Run. Granted, it is no major threat. But, some action in the air is nice. The extra damage can really make a difference in a longer game. There is nothing worse than moving to combat thinking you can end an opponent and then realizing you are one or two damage short and knowing that their next turn is GG for you. I am still playtesting BLiege but so far I like that it is a strong devotion builder. It is out of bolt range and buffs my other creatures. So far, so good.
On Shaman of the Great Hunt, I actually think it could be fantastic. Great synergy with Raging Ravine as was mentioned. I really wish he cost 1 less. I feel like my 4 drop slot is tight as it is. But, the extra damage is promising too. I could swap out Polukranos, World Eater which was my token killer. (I originally had one Bow of Nylea to synergize with Poly as a board wipe. But, Shaman looks so good. One creature that doesn't build devotion is fine. I am excited to pick one up and try him out.
As an aside for Liege, the synergy with Ravine is even better that he is removed from bolt range immediately with liege on the board. After attacking he is now a 6/6 and prior to attach is a 5/5.
How many of you are seeing Blood Moon in your metas? Have you found it hard to deal with considering that most of us are running up to 6 fetches plus two Stomping Grounds? Has anyone else been play testing Cinder Glade?
I am not sold on Expedite, however. Since I play G Wave, I have to balance my decks ability to function on the draw and its ability to take advantage of reveals from G Wave. Expedite would be great if I had it in hand prior to Wave, but if it hits the graveyard because of Wave, then it can be a waste to use an EWit to bring it back to hand for turn when I have the option to get more powerful or more situational spells. Just doesn't feel right for my deck. But, in more Aggro versions I can definitely see potential. Especially GR Walkers or with Tooth/Nail combo.
I wouldn't discount Boartusk Liege. Perhaps he doesn't fit in all builds, but certainly in this aggro version. He makes burning-tree emissary 4/4 and buffs all other creatures (including beasts off of garruk). It is also insane when you can play 2 of them. I also run 4 baloths. He pumps all other creatures the turn he comes out, making it a decent top deck. Also having 2 Liege's out equals 2 5/6 trample. For those playing the Xenagos planeswalkers, he makes a 4/4 haste. He comes down early, with 3 devotion.
I'm down to 3 Liege in my build. I think it's the right number.
We are seeing tons of blood moon... I'm part of the problem; my other deck is skred red. We had three people running the free-wins red deck with moon and ensnaring bridge at our last fnm. I'm using cinder glade; I think it's better than stomping ground for a splash. I don't need red early. I'm only using a couple fetches, though, mostly because of budget. Switching to abundant growth as your cantrip of choice could help, too.
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I'm about 80 games through my hundred with Walker Devotion what I call the "Red" version (with Xenagos). It's unreal with Oath adds so the archetype. It's faster, smoother, and more resilient all at the same time due to the addition of a full set of oaths (and the use of Genesis Wave...but I digress)
I'll post bunches this evening/afternoon when I get back! I'm so excited the archetype we all love got mentioned by someone as big as Sam Black!
What a cool loop! It's funny, cuz it often sounds like a lot to say "you need X devotion, 2 walkers, and a saber tooth.." But in a deck with a ton of card draw, Genesis waves, and eternal witness...it's actually much easier than you think on paper the point of the deck is to grow devotion quickly, and most/many decks play s full set of Garruk and Witness...so I could definitely see you loop coming up; most especially post wave. Cool idea!
As for Oath of Nissa - imo we dont need Eidolon of Blossoms for it to be good, however it might spawn totally new archetype with Herald of the Pantheon, Courser, Eidolon and probably some white enchantments such as starfield of nyx or angel enchantments.
I completely agree with you. I don't think Eidolon is necessary at all. Oath of Nissa can literally be ported into most lists and make it better (with some other minor changes due to the enhancements Oath makes to a deck). Traditional devotion decks, Walker Combo, Walker non-Combo, some Tooth and Nail (although to a lesser extent). Having said that...it may be the card needed to finally make Eidolon work in a competitive deck.
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
I will definitely include this as a one of in my build. With a Liege out, it becomes a 6/6 when it attacks! I would be hesitant to put 2 lands that enter tapped into my deck, it has so few to begin with and need a forest asap. Maybe Oath of Nissa has changed that though...
I have also been considering putting a one of Dryad Arbor. I found it too risky before, as loosing one of my lands was too crucial too me at the time. However, the fact that this card can become a 2/2 with either Sarkhan Vol or Boar-Tusk Liege makes it seem appealing. Also, because this deck has so many larger threats faster than before, I'm hoping it will less likely be targeted. These man-lands may give this deck the little push it needs for consistent, fast wins.
Could Dryad Arbor possibly be useful in a Cloudstone Curio build? I haven't played it before, so I'm not sure if it could really be that useful. I suppose it could at least return an Eternal Witness to hand.
Yes it could, as a way to trigger Cloudstone Curio via your land drop for the turn. I think it only triggers once though, as it checks for permanent type as its valid targets. I.E. Dryad Arbor can bounce a creature or a land, but not both.
I was talking to my sister about this today, as one of my favorite tricks in Abzan Company (the version I run runs Dryad Arbor as my 23rd land) is to fetch for Arbor via a fetchland to trigger Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. I was discussing with her the possibility of running a "Knightfall" devotion deck as I believe that the Retreat to Coralhelm is essentially Lotus Cobra 5-8 in the Bant shell. I was interested in maybe running a Bant Company list, or a Gwu Devotion list exploring making triggers with Anafenza and some of Oath of Gatewatch's new landfall mechanics. It may just be a reason to put counters on all the things, and lose track of triggers, but it could be fun.
Beside obvious Oath of Nissa, I really like Bonds of Mortality and Embodiment of Insight. The second one can add a wincon out of a genesis wave that "whiffs" hitting too many lands, and just landing+Prime puts 9 attacking power with haste. And while they obviously "die to bolt", note that those attacking and defending power can't be Abrupt Decayed or Maelstrom Pulsed.
Most likely still tier 2 for a while. It's SUPER tough to get a deck into Tier 1 status. I'm perfectly happy with tier 2 though :).
What a fun (and potentialy extremely powerful) idea!
I looked at Dryad Arbor for some time (it was even in the list for a short period). It has a ton of synergy (Xenagos counts it, can be overrun with Garruk, can be pumped with Wolf Run, bounces card draw creatures with Curio...and even is a Forest for Arbor Elf). My big concern was just that it is really tough to play a land that comes into play tapped. This deck lives and dies on its fast starts (so it can immediately start snowballing)...I just wasn't certain all of the small synergies were worth it. Having said that; there are a LOT of synergies; so I should probably take a second look at it.
We have so many different ideas going here it's hard to pull together focus on a single list. I think I have almost all the cards for the walker build, except for the curios... I guess I'm wondering how we can best help each other out. I think Jaishiva and I are working toward similar ends, but there's still a ton of ground to explore.
I love the line of play with multiple Garruk, E Witness, and Temur Sabretooth... I actually played with all of those cards for a while and never considered using them that way. Thanks for pointing it out, Just Me.
I suspect that the Eidolon of Blossoms build that was being discussed a few pages back is the best Tooth and Nail list... it's really a bummer that you can't find Tooth and Nail or Primal Command with Oath of Nissa.
To be more specific on my last post, I was talking about trying to kick around some ideas to use a whole 4 set of Dryad Arbor (maybe as a second mana dork replacement) to abuse multiple triggers from cards like: Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, Lotus Cobra, Retreat to Coralhelm, Embodiment of Insight, by bringing them into play or recurring them via Knight of the Reliquary, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam. The last especially has some merit, because Tron, Bloom, Scapeshift, and the 3-color fair decks that have greedy mana bases all hate decks that can main board and re-use Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge. I could see a "Bant Taxes" style deck being formed via these interactions if they could be reliably recast.
First Shaman of the Great Hunt, it has a lot of potential for the R/G aggro version of devotion that I'm working on. I can see it possibly being good with a Genesis Wave deck also.
Here's why:
Haste revealed with Genesis Hydra or Wave is awesome.
A large enough Genesis Wave usually nets us enough mana to use his draw card ability, which can be awesome depending on what your board state is like.
Can buff all of your creatures the turn he comes out.
He is card draw in a permanent.
Makes a great top deck! You can attack with him the same turn, an if you have 8 mana (not hard for us) you can use him to draw cards the same turn he comes out.
He gives us another place to put the 4 mana we can possibly generate on turn 2. (You don't have Garruk in hand, but can make 4 mana turn 2, cast him, swing in for 4 and he's a 5/3 at the end of turn 2.)
In this R/G aggro version, we can make a lot of 4 power creatures, which allows for a lot of card draw. With help from Boartusk Liege, Sarkhan Vol, Genesis Hydraand the 4 Leatherback Baloth, we should always have some 4 power creatures around.
It is true that he does nothing for our devotion, dang. (Actually he helps Xenagos become a creature, so not entirely useless.)
I think this card is going to really help the R/G aggro build quite a bit. Right now the theme of this deck is "every creature is a threat that gets bigger over time, hopefully it has haste too!" This deck needs much more testing, but I believe it will become a valid archetype. It is incredibly fast, diverse in its threats, consistent and cheaper in cost than a lot of devotion builds.
Now, Expedite, which is almost the same as Crimson Wisps, except it doesn't turn your creature red. That is important to this deck as it runs Boartusk Liege and some R/G creatures.
Expedite or Wisps could allow you to play an Arbor Elf and use it the same turn, while drawing you a card. Imagine having 2 usable arbor elves on turn 2 with Utopia Sprawl Also, it can give a creature haste off of Genesis Wave if you have the right mana, while still leaving you with a card in hand. It plays great with Genesis Hydra. If we pick up a Xenagos or Nylea from the Hydra you can swing in with a large indestructible haste creatures. Cast a Hydra for 12 and somehow find nothing of importance? For 1 more mana that 10/10 hydra has haste and you still have a card in hand. Now the Hydra is a huge threat the turn it comes out even if it reveals nothing else relevant to the game at the time. You can make Burning-Tree emissary haste for free, getting in damage asap. Another strong point of this aggro deck is making Leatherback baloths haste, which Expedite does too! This card seems like it could be helpful beginning and late game. It thins the deck while staying relevant. I haven't included it in the list I'm about to post, but I'll try to test it eventually.
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Leatherback Baloth
3 Boar Tusk Liege
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Shaman of the Great Hunt
4 Genesis Hydra
2 Sarkhan Vol
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Fertile Ground
4 Utopia Sprawl
Land 21
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Stomping Ground
1 Raging Ravine
1 Kessig Wolf Run
7 Forest
On Shaman of the Great Hunt, I actually think it could be fantastic. Great synergy with Raging Ravine as was mentioned. I really wish he cost 1 less. I feel like my 4 drop slot is tight as it is. But, the extra damage is promising too. I could swap out Polukranos, World Eater which was my token killer. (I originally had one Bow of Nylea to synergize with Poly as a board wipe. But, Shaman looks so good. One creature that doesn't build devotion is fine. I am excited to pick one up and try him out.
As an aside for Liege, the synergy with Ravine is even better that he is removed from bolt range immediately with liege on the board. After attacking he is now a 6/6 and prior to attach is a 5/5.
How many of you are seeing Blood Moon in your metas? Have you found it hard to deal with considering that most of us are running up to 6 fetches plus two Stomping Grounds? Has anyone else been play testing Cinder Glade?
I am not sold on Expedite, however. Since I play G Wave, I have to balance my decks ability to function on the draw and its ability to take advantage of reveals from G Wave. Expedite would be great if I had it in hand prior to Wave, but if it hits the graveyard because of Wave, then it can be a waste to use an EWit to bring it back to hand for turn when I have the option to get more powerful or more situational spells. Just doesn't feel right for my deck. But, in more Aggro versions I can definitely see potential. Especially GR Walkers or with Tooth/Nail combo.
I'm down to 3 Liege in my build. I think it's the right number.