I know Wistful Selkie is played for the devotion, is the draw a card a big deal on it? Has predator ooze been tested instead, or as a split? Could help the boardwipe issue
from my limited experience Thrun, the Last Troll has proven essential to my main board. he beat american control flat-out for me, and when wrath of god came in i would try to hold a witness in hand and race to thrun.
i'm playing a green stompy i threw together using an initial idea i had before i found this primer. predator ooze and young wolf are some favorites of mine that i haven't found many people to be running. i put nykthos in because i love it, and i like the fit for its ability to play around Mana Leak, and it can allow for 6G instead of 4G on turn 4. i've taken banefire out; didn't work well for me.
(2 separate decks. i'm still tweaking the naya chord-control but i'm missing 3 primal command. i put stompy together to play at the shops)
@Bingsoo711. I've been trying Sylvan Ranger over Coiling Oracle and I like it so far. It's still an elf, drops easily with just 1 coloured source. It's a Coiling Oracle with no variance and also no built-in Explore potential. When I've been playing - which isn't a lot - I've enjoyed having a steady steam of lands to drop.
Why is Kiki-Jikki the go to combo piece? What advantages do other creature based combos have? Are there many more worth looking at in a Green Devotion Deck?
Part of whats good with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is you're likely win when you play it (unless they have removal).
Getting infinite life with Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder is nice, and a little more durable against removal, but having infinite life isn't a guaranteed win like damage is.
Kiki-jiki can not only combo with restoration angel, but also helps in creating token of creatures with etb effect like eternal witness, siege rhino and such, therefore it is a combo piece that can synergise better with the deck rather than the other combos mentioned. the only downside is the RRR cost which can be difficult to cast from hand.
the emrakul with xenogs combo is best used in a tooth and nail combo version.
with the new set, i have heard from my friends talking about collective company with melira combo, like anafenza the first kin tree with murderous redcap, kitchen finks and a sac outlet. it is an option that we can look into in the toolbox verion that splash more colour like azban version while the naya version can go for kiki-restoration combo version.
recently, i played my toolbox version against grixis delver. post sideboard, my opponent bring in a lot of anti green, anti white creature removal spells. i was very surprise so i asked him why does he devote so much slot against these 2 colour? his answer: siege rhino. he said my main board thrun is a threat that he can't deal with. therefore, i think thrun have a place in the deck against the control match-up, also due to popularity of azban and such, players are bringing more hate against these match-up and we are caught in between. thrun helps a lot in this scenario.
Rest of DTK spoilers are out.
Two new green cards caught me. Sheltered Aerie is this likely too slow? the double fixing is nice though for splashes. Explosive Vegetation (new to modern) could this be a good way to ramp and fix our mana, would have to play more basics though.
I love his explanation of house Knight of Reliquary can be used to utilize less Nykthos and have a slightly "greedier" mana base (with tons of 1-of's). Seems a bit "glass cannon" when just looking at the list (of course that is just an assumption and could be totally different in actual testing); but he brings some really interesting ideas to the table. Looks like he may have found a deck where harmonize works (bridges the gap between his small cards and his large cards.).
I really do like knight of the reliquary and Lotus cobra in tooth and nail decks. Tooth and nail decks feel like the "combo" end of the spectrum (where you really do just want to go all-in and get to 9-mana as quickly as possible. KOR allows for this (along with the Devotion Core) especially with Lotus Cobra...while still being a size able threat at times.
Great example of a Tooth and Nail variant! Thanks for posting it. I'll add it to the primer when I get back to the office.
Anyone got recent vod's of this in action? Thanks!
I will provide a few links shortly, but for the most part they will be variations of the "traditional" build. I will try to find ways of taping the other styles too.
I have been testing multiple versions of Devotion Aggro Elves for about a year now, and each iteration pretty much collapses to boardwipes and excessive removal. Even with a sideboard designated to minimize the effects of such hate, it seems Modern Elves are most resilient and threatening in their Combo version. Much props to Curdbros for coming up with a fantastic Combo Elves deck :). I was wondering if you tried splashing black instead of blue to add in some removal or discard. Is Coiling Oracle irreplaceable in your opinion? I am thinking about switching over to your Combo version and testing out different things. I'd like to hear some of the results of your testing.
Thanks Bingsoo!
I'm glad it's working for you thus far; and that you are thinking of making it your own with a black splash version. Please keep us updated on how you improve upon the deck for your play and how it plays/tests.
You also bring up some really great points about elf builds in general (and points that mirror devotion decks in general). It's items I've wanted to address in the past, and this is a great conversation to do so. I'll "spoiler" them, however, so you can read the ones you want and skip the ideas you don't.
On Elf Decks Weaknesses and How to Mitigate them with Devotion
Elf decks are a essential synergy-based decks. Actually most green devotion decks are also synergy-based decks. Where "good stuff" decks utilize the most powerful cards at their converted mana cost; synergy-based thanks rely on the sum being greater than the parts (at least in the early turns)...This comes with obvious strengths when things go to plan (you can often out pace the opponent to a much larger board); however there are some weaknesses that cannot be overlooked, including:
1. The removal of one piece can be far more disastrous for a synergy-based deck as it cannot recover as easily in "top deck mode". When a larger portion of the deck is "support"; The potential to top deck your way out of an unfavorable position is much lower. I have the same chance of top decking an Arbor Elf or a Nettle Sentinel (without the combo) as I do a Genesis Wave...needless to say, you really don't want to get there.
2. Because both elf decks (and green devotion decks for that matter) are board-based; any spell that can remove multiple pieces from a board is going to greatly harm the deck. It not only hurts the current board; it reduces the power of future actions. Ample removal essentially becomes time-walks against us (as we have to rebuild our position).
Simply put, removal (especially mass removal) is terrible for most elf decks. Spot removal can pick off the "important" creatures and board wipes can be as high as 10-for-1's (or more depending on the board).
Given my testing for many months on end, however, I found that there were two ways to combat this:
1. Card draw
Far and away the best way to deal with removal (including board wipes) is having plenty of 2-for-1's or more (Genesis Wave is often a 6-for-1, 8-for-1, 4-for-1, etc...you can get to the point where X=the rest of your deck but in general X = 4 to 10). A lot of removal in modern is 1-for-1 removal (path, bolt, abrupt decay, etc.). This is due to the prevalence and power of the "good stuff" decks. Its why lingering souls is currently such a good card. If you are constantly filling the board with permanents; the opponent has to choose which single permanent they will remove leaving the rest. This allows you to essentially build synergy and play "through" the removal. When you are playing several X-for-1's on a consistent basis; even multiple 1-for-1's don't bother you. It also lets you play more "freely", knowing you will have additional threats in the future.
In my case, due to Cloudstone Curio; there are multiple card-draw-loops. Because devotion is built up rather quickly and 1-for-1 removal is not nearly as powerful against me (due to 2-for-1 permanents and X-for-1 spells); often times I will have a ton of mana and the ability to "loop" cards that allows me to use the mana to draw many cards in a single turn...it gets crazy from there because you begin to draw into Garruk Wildspeaker's to untap Nykthos, 2nd copies of Nykthos to play as your land for turn, etc. to continue to "loop" indefinitely (Essentially once you hit a certain point it is highly likely you will be able to draw out your entire deck)...but that is another point altogether. The point is that this card draw is FAR more advantageous than any 4-6 additional elves could be. No single Immaculate Magistrate or Llanowar Elves will make up for the ability to draw 5+ cards in a single turn like an Abundant Growth loop will.
And while it's less important, traditionally creature removal and enchantment removal are separate cards; and thus cards like Supreme Verdict and Anger of the Gods are far less disastrous for me as they would be for other elf decks. I can't count the times I've had an opponent play a Supreme Verdict only for me to turn around and draw 5-7 cards the next turn (as the creature board wipes to remove Garruk, Abundant Growth, Utopia Sprawl, or Cloudstone Curio...). With 8 mana, I can cast an Abundant Growth, bounce the other, and continue to do so drawing a card for each 1-green mana played. This ability to instantly refill your hand and board is ONLY available due to devotion. It wasn't really a possibility until devotion was made.
In elf decks, you have to have enough elves to ensure the synergy between them works; but the remainder of the deck should be dedicated to (a) card draw to mitigate the devastating effect mass removal can have, and (b) taking advantage of that synergy to win the game (cards like Ezuri, Purphoros, Kessig Wolf Run, Garruk's overrun, etc.). Synergy decks are not great in "top deck mode" (as many good stuff decks are); so it is essential that we do what we can to continue to fill the board and our hand.
2. Mana-sinks
This actually applies to non-elf devotion decks as well. Due to the fact that synergy base decks can be disrupted, it's very important that many of the cards have uses both in the early game as well as the late game. WOTC is printing more and more of these "scale-able" cards recently. This is especially the case with win-cons. Ezuri, Nylea, Kessig Wolf Run, Genesis Wave, Banefire, and even Eternal Witness/Primal Command have "scale-able" uses/power depending on the mana you have). This is paramount to playing against a full range of unknown opponents.
When cards are good on turn two and great on turn five; no matter your position/mana, you don't have "dead" cards. Nothing is worse for synergy decks (or devotion decks) than having dead cards. We want to be consistently filling the board with permanents and green symbols; and cards in our hand don't do that :). There are a TON of "scalable" cards out there (and wizards has been printing more and more in recent sets with cards like Tasigur, Shaman of the Great Hunt, Genesis Hydra, Mastery of the Unseem, and others. This is one of the larger problems for many of the original devotion decks (and some like the UG Wave deck played by Scotty Mac. When a deck consists of 50% 1-2 drops and 50% 5-8 drops; there are going to be games where nearly every card in your hand is dead...this is NOT what devotion wants to do. Mana-sinks greatly smooth these games out while also continuing your synergy (as they also add more green symbols to the board).
This really goes back to card and advantage. My brother and I are nuts about card advantage; and cards that say "draw a card" on them often are not the most effective form of card advantage there is in Modern. In honesty, most are just card selection (you don't truly net any physical cards)...but permanents with additional mana-sinks/activated abilities are really just a card with an additional spell "hooked" to it. Every time you activate the permanent's ability you effectively have cast a spell...Ezuri's "elf overrun" ability is the same when he's on board as it would be if I had scarf called "Elf Overrun" that read, "instant [mana]2GGG/[mana]: All elves get +3/+3 and trample until end of turn." Even better, however; is that because it's not a tap ability; it's like I have Multiple copies!!! This is what makes mana sinks so powerful. They can be played early or late; and they effectively are built-in card advantage (which is truly the single most important factor in synergy based decks.
Most games in Magic are won by either (a) playing more powerful spells than the opponent or (b) playing a higher quantity of spells than the opponent. Generally speaking (not 100% rule, but very likely); the person that more efficiently spends their mana and/or spends more mana in a game is going to win. Basically, you "buy" wins with mana This doesn't just apply to devotion decks. My brother Gavin plays Jeskai decks with cards like Grim Lavamancer (who essentially gives him 3-4 Shock's every game, Geist of Saint Traft who gives you a Serra Angel each time he attacks, and Snapcaster Magewho literally lets you play an additional spell...his latest deck takes advantage of prowess (which essentially adds a spell to every non-creature spell, albeit a small +1/+1 boost) and Shu yun, The Silent Tempest...Shu Yun is NUTS as he essentially has a spell hooked to him that states pay two mana, target creature gets double-strike until end of turn...cast this only if you've cast another non-creature spell..." Having this psuedo card in his "hand" any time Shu Yun is on board is huge. With additional cards like Outpost Siege (to basically draw a card each turn), Thassa (who has Aqueous form basically "hooked to her" and "scry 1" spell each turn....It's these types of card advantage that quickly add up way more than any "draw 2 cards" spell can in your hand. I could go on and on about this (as this is a core philosophy for how we build decks...) but it is SO important to devotion decks.
Devotion decks get an even greater "boost" from card advantage because each additional permanent leads to more green symbols, which leads to more mana, which leads to more activations, which leads to more cards, which leads to more permanents...it's a snowball effect. There are times where you can go to far to focusing on card-advantage (I did it with my enchantment-devotion deck); but it is VERY hard. There's almost no amount of advantage that's too much
3. Infinite Combo
This is not entirely necessary; but I've found the best synergy based decks I've played have all contained an infinite combo. This most likely has to do with the way I build the decks. There is no better "synergy" among permanent's than an infinite combo/win-con; and when you focus on card advantage; there is no better option than "accidentally" drawing into the win
Many devotion decks already do this (with Resto Angel/Kiki-Kiki, etc.) so it's not a novel idea; but any time you can have the potential for "oops, I win." You're in a good place in Moderm You will see so many different decks in Modern, that knowing you have a set of cards that will win 99% of games is a advantage few decks can have. This also creates additional synergy with a focus on card-draw / card-advantage; as you are always a few card draws away from winning the game outright (regardless of your current position).
While all of this is a little "theory" and more abstract deck-building ideas (I put it in spoilers to save space and so if you didn't want to read it you don't have to); it honestly does coincide with the way I built the Elf-based deck (and how I build Devotion decks in general). By basically replacing a portion of the non-combo "support" elves (like lords, token generators, etc.) and replacing them with pure forms of card advantage; you greatly mitigate the largest weakness Elf decks can have (removal) while still keeping many of the absolute best aspects of elf decks (the crazy amount of mana that can be generated early, the potential infinite combo, their ability to quickly fill a board, and the benefits of the tribal cards made for them.)
Answer to your Question about Coiling Oracle and Splashing Black
You CAN do without the two Coiling Oracle's without completely derailing the deck. There are only two of them I use them for a few reasons. The first is that the most powerful synergy in the deck revolves around the "draw a card" elves and Heritage Druid. Having Elvish Visionary's and Coiling Oracles that both draw a card when they ETB AND also can tap for mana with Heritage Druid becomes outrageous when you get a Cloudstone Curio or Temur Sabertooth on board (as you can tap them, bounce them, draw a card, and tap them again...)
Having said this, however, Coiling Oracle does require you to play blue mana (which is a downside). You can only "loop" them based on the amount of blue mana you can create. While Coiling Oracle "loops" are better (because each land comes into play) they are also not nearly as "high-volume" (as even if you have 20 green mana; if you only have 3 blue mana; you can only loop a Coiling Oracle three times). This is why there are only two of them compared to four Visionaries.
To be honest, If you wanted to splash black, you would most likely want to play a slightly different deck in sum....Replacing the Oracles with Abrupt Decay; however, would most likely somewhat "balance out" one another. While you can't loop Abrupt Decay and they will slow the deck down in some cases; there will be other cases where you remove a very important card from the game that gives you the extra turn you need to live. Coiling Oracle, while important to me, are probably the easiest card to remove from the deck (as you no longer have to play blue at that point).
At that point, you also have access to some great sideboard cards (like Thoughtsieze and Stain the Mind) to combat the worst match ups for the deck (which tend to be Twin, Infect, and Tron)
I hope this helps! I'd love to see your list and hear about your testing. I'm happy to provide what a deck would like if I splashed black and removed Coiling Oracle if you haven't built your list yet (just let me know).
P.S. I will be posting my testing results (of over 100 of my last games) and am going to post different interactions (as some can be hard to see) and am going to TRY to post some kind of video and/or pictures to show how the games play this weekend for the Elf deck. I just really enjoy the deck and love talking about it So I can't tell you how much I appreciate discussions like this Bingsoo! I hope your version of the deck works out for you too!!
@Bingsoo711. I've been trying Sylvan Ranger over Coiling Oracle and I like it so far. It's still an elf, drops easily with just 1 coloured source. It's a Coiling Oracle with no variance and also no built-in Explore potential. When I've been playing - which isn't a lot - I've enjoyed having a steady steam of lands to drop.
These are spectacular ideas. Sylvan Rangers is a GREAT replacement (and allows you to avoid splashing blue)...and Ranger of Eos could actually be better than Coiling Oracle's. Ranger is AMAZING in elf decks (a 3-for-1, grabs two pieces of the combo,etc.). Caspian's white splashing Elf deck is one I would advise many people to try out.
And just as you said in another post, there are numerous potential infinite combos for devotion decks we can and should be exploring. With the means of producing enough white mana; there's no reason Seedcradle Witch couldn't be a combo piece...Maybe in a devotion deck (now with Assault Formation) and Axebane Guardian...once Axebane Guardian can tap for four mana; he can infinitely be pumped via Seedcradle Witch. But like you said, even in an Elf Build, all it requires is a land that can tap for four (with Utopia Sprawl and Overgrowth) and you've got yourself an infinite combo! GREAT idea! Even with just a a good amount of mana and an Arbor Elf (say you have 8 mana and the ability to make it 12 by untapping an Arbor Elf twice...you still get to give the elf +9/+9! And as a 1-drop; Seedcradle Witch can be played early to give Heritage Druid another elf to tap. Between this and Ranger of Eos you may be on to something (as there are no better sideboard cards than White...and you get Worship!)
Just on the Bloom Tender/Freed from the Real...the same could be said with Arbor Elf again...put a Utopia Sprawl set on blue and you have another infinite mana option....this is something we may need to work on...any time you have a couple different avenues to an infinite combo it's a good thing.
It's these types of interactions we should continue to look into (as devotion decks have access to that other decks may not). We should probably make a list of potential combos in the Primer in an "Extra Information" section.
from my limited experience Thrun, the Last Troll has proven essential to my main board. he beat american control flat-out for me, and when wrath of god came in i would try to hold a witness in hand and race to thrun.
i'm playing a green stompy i threw together using an initial idea i had before i found this primer. predator ooze and young wolf are some favorites of mine that i haven't found many people to be running. i put nykthos in because i love it, and i like the fit for its ability to play around Mana Leak, and it can allow for 6G instead of 4G on turn 4. i've taken banefire out; didn't work well for me.
(2 separate decks. i'm still tweaking the naya chord-control but i'm missing 3 primal command. i put stompy together to play at the shops)
I'd love to see your list. I need to add some "Stompy" deck lists to the Primer and would love to add yours (since you've been on here for a while and have a good amount of experience playing your Stompy deck.) Please post (if you have time) the list. Also, if there are any little interactions, testing results, etc. you;d like to post I'd love to add it to the primer!
To be honest, If you wanted to splash black, you would most likely want to play a slightly different deck in sum....Replacing the Oracles with Abrupt Decay; however, would most likely somewhat "balance out" one another. While you can't loop Abrupt Decay and they will slow the deck down in some cases; there will be other cases where you remove a very important card from the game that gives you the extra turn you need to live. Coiling Oracle, while important to me, are probably the easiest card to remove from the deck (as you no longer have to play blue at that point).
At that point, you also have access to some great sideboard cards (like Thoughtsieze and Stain the Mind) to combat the worst match ups for the deck (which tend to be Twin, Infect, and Tron)
I hope this helps! I'd love to see your list and hear about your testing. I'm happy to provide what a deck would like if I splashed black and removed Coiling Oracle if you haven't built your list yet (just let me know).
That was an amazingly informative response, CurdBros! Thanks a TON for sharing so much! I've been playing Elves in Modern ever since I started playing Magic, and wanted to find a way to be competitive in the meta, but even recently, the spot removal and board wipes were too frustrating to continue brewing. That write-up was really enlightening in so many ways.
My personal ambition was to brew an aggro deck that could compete, but I find myself struggling to keep the deck resilient despite the heavy card advantage that the Elves allow. If you do have a black-splash Elf list to share, that would be much appreciated! How do you feel about a semi-toolbox form of Elf Devotion with either Chord of Calling or Genesis Hydra? I am totally convinced that cards like Temur Sabertooth are completely amazing in these decks, but I am also looking at other mana-sink wincons like Chameleon Colossus, Mirror Entity, or Polukranos, World Eater. With black removal spells like the ones you mentioned, I was thinking a midrange deck might work with a variety of different mana-sinks on top of the Elf Devotion core you were talking about.
What are your thoughts on a more interactive Elf Devotion deck?
I'm always appreciative of Elf and Devotion talk. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!
@Bingsoo711. I've been trying Sylvan Ranger over Coiling Oracle and I like it so far. It's still an elf, drops easily with just 1 coloured source. It's a Coiling Oracle with no variance and also no built-in Explore potential. When I've been playing - which isn't a lot - I've enjoyed having a steady steam of lands to drop.
Sylvan Ranger is a really good idea! I love Coiling Oracle, but I just feel like I could lean towards splashing other colors to make the deck more interactive. Thanks for the insight!
The Freed from the Real combo seems like something that could be made into a deck. Technically you could have a turn two win if I'm playing this right....
Turn Two:
1. Forest
2. Utopia Sprawl (set to blue)
Tap enchanted Forest for UG...
Tap Arbor Elf to Untap enchanted land.
Re-tap land for total of GGUU
3. Cast Freed from the Reel enchanting Arbor Elf. (Cast with GGUto float U)
4. Use Remaining U to Untap Arbor Elf.
From here we have infinite Green mana!!! ON TURN TWO
With Genesis Wave, Tooth and Nail, etc. You can literally win on turn 2. At worst you just cast your entire hand!
I've been testing for the last several hours with this and it's obviously going to take another several hours to feel like I've got a good feel as to what a competitive deck would look like (I.e. Not just a pure glass cannon)...but this is a literal turn 2 infinite mana combo (that works in any Simic-based devotion deck). This could be a great deal for devotion decks (as turn two wins are very rare in Modern.)
I'll post my list tomorrow....but the hands where you have arbor elf, utopia sprawl, freed from the real, forest, forest, Genesis wave seem crazy broken :). I'm excited because I can see this being ported VERY easily into an elf build; but also into TONS other devotion builds. Tooth and Nail, etc. Redundancy can come in the form of Voyagimg Satyr, Bloom Tender, Fertile Grounds, and Drift of Phantasms (to tutor for Freed)...those woukd require turn 3; but that's still lighting fast (and they're good in most devotion decks without the combo).
I tend to get overly excited about stuff like this; so it may not be as amazing as I'm making it sound...I can say, however, that just in my brief testing it seems pretty nuts! :).
Let me know what you guys think. Is this as good as it seems? An I missing something because I want it to work?
It seems to work. The other great thing beyond a turn 2 win is that it can come together naturally over the course of the game quite easily. I like it in the elf deck where you are already totally geared to an infinite combo and therefore can take strong advantage of it. In most other versions of the deck I'm not sure the deck building costs are worth what it adds.
Freed is obviously not useful with Chord of Calling. I can't think of many tutors for it besides Idylic Tutor or, like you mentioned, Drift of Phantasms. I think of it more as a useful 2ndary combo you can pull out of nowhere.
What possible cards could combo with it in Simic? Deadeye Navigator + Mystic Snake, Venser, Shaper Savant, all Chord-able, Command-able. I'm less keen on running Tooth and Nail with this combo because you have too many disparate parts that do nothing. The Chord/Command route seem better in non-Elf builds.
It seems to work. The other great thing beyond a turn 2 win is that it can come together naturally over the course of the game quite easily. I like it in the elf deck where you are already totally geared to an infinite combo and therefore can take strong advantage of it. In most other versions of the deck I'm not sure the deck building costs are worth what it adds.
Freed is obviously not useful with Chord of Calling. I can't think of many tutors for it besides Idylic Tutor or, like you mentioned, Drift of Phantasms. I think of it more as a useful 2ndary combo you can pull out of nowhere.
What possible cards could combo with it in Simic? Deadeye Navigator + Mystic Snake, Venser, Shaper Savant, all Chord-able, Command-able. I'm less keen on running Tooth and Nail with this combo because you have too many disparate parts that do nothing. The Chord/Command route seem better in non-Elf builds.
Crazy fun combo!
Very good points Caspian...you are right that either (a) it could (will) be added to one of the two Elf Builds I have (aggro and combo) and/or would require it's own deck altogether. It's really not a card you can port into the Toolbox deck (as you don't get any additional value out of it). At least in the Elf aggro build you can attach it to an Elvish Archdruid if you want, use it to start an enchantment/Abundant Growth loop, etc. Multiple uses are a must when dealing with combo pieces (as you are only really going to have all your pieces 50% of the time).
I do agree with you that the Toolbox version is really built on the back(s) of Chord of Calling and Primal Command tutors...I was initially surprised that there was never any Summoner's Pact's in the deck (as they allow you to act more "quickly" at the cost of your next turn (which can be useful with "hoser" cards); but with the use of so many non-green creatures I somewhat understand...that, and you just can't beat Chord of Calling (directly on board, instant-speed, convoke, just amazing).
Thus far, I've played it in my current elf build as a secondary (or in this case tertiary) combo as well as in Aggro Elves...I'm actually not sure which it works better in It does kind of make you want to change a few pieces of the deck to help support it; but you hit it right on the head that it almost works best when it is just a random card that lets you win out of nowhere! I'm testing it all day today and will present a list or two later today to show where it's worked best.
I just looked at MTGGoldfish as well....boy oh boy is there a good amount of Green Devotion Results on there! I wouldn't be surprised if we got back to Tier 2 soon! Just takes some more paper play (but that's really hard to monitor and keep track of in the Modern Meta). I'll post links to the 3-1 and 4-1 recent results in the next post.
So I borrowed the handful of cards I'm still missing so that I could play with the deck using the list I posted. Overall it is a blast to play but I did have a thought I wanted to bring up here for feedback. I was considering trying to fit a couple of copies of Domri Rade into the deck mainly for his -2 ability. Though additional card draw isn't a bad thing. To do it though, I would need to either cut 2 Wistful Selkie, 2 Eternal Witness, or 1 of each..and I'm not sure that's worth it. What do you all think?
I could also drop Selkie all together and run 3 Witness, 2 Prime Time, and 4 Leatherback Baloth with 2 Domri to make better use of the -2. I'm just not sure it's worth losing the card draw from Selkie to do so.
It could help with creature issues, though without Baloth I'm not sure there are enough big creatures in the list to make it worthwhile.
I've also come across a couple of lists running Akroma's Memorial. What are your thoughts?
The Freed from the Real combo seems like something that could be made into a deck. Technically you could have a turn two win if I'm playing this right....
Turn Two:
1. Forest
2. Utopia Sprawl (set to blue)
Tap enchanted Forest for UG...
Tap Arbor Elf to Untap enchanted land.
Re-tap land for total of GGUU
3. Cast Freed from the Reel enchanting Arbor Elf. (Cast with GGUto float U)
4. Use Remaining U to Untap Arbor Elf.
From here we have infinite Green mana!!! ON TURN TWO
With Genesis Wave, Tooth and Nail, etc. You can literally win on turn 2. At worst you just cast your entire hand!
I've been testing for the last several hours with this and it's obviously going to take another several hours to feel like I've got a good feel as to what a competitive deck would look like (I.e. Not just a pure glass cannon)...but this is a literal turn 2 infinite mana combo (that works in any Simic-based devotion deck). This could be a great deal for devotion decks (as turn two wins are very rare in Modern.)
I'll post my list tomorrow....but the hands where you have arbor elf, utopia sprawl, freed from the real, forest, forest, Genesis wave seem crazy broken :). I'm excited because I can see this being ported VERY easily into an elf build; but also into TONS other devotion builds. Tooth and Nail, etc. Redundancy can come in the form of Voyagimg Satyr, Bloom Tender, Fertile Grounds, and Drift of Phantasms (to tutor for Freed)...those woukd require turn 3; but that's still lighting fast (and they're good in most devotion decks without the combo).
I tend to get overly excited about stuff like this; so it may not be as amazing as I'm making it sound...I can say, however, that just in my brief testing it seems pretty nuts! :).
Let me know what you guys think. Is this as good as it seems? An I missing something because I want it to work?
The best way to go off would be from a single Primal Command, loop into 4 E-Witts into a Temur Sabertooth, bouncing an Ewitt to keep looping gain infinte life, search and play as many green creatures in your deck as you like, end with Craterhoof if they don't scoop. This also applies to a single Chord which can fetch an ewitt and a tooth to do the same thing. It does seem pretty bonkers, although it is 6 cards, Arbor Elf, 2 untapped lands that tap for green, Utopia Sprawl, Freed, and a Chord or Command. Certainly a thing you could try to do.
from my limited experience Thrun, the Last Troll has proven essential to my main board. he beat american control flat-out for me, and when wrath of god came in i would try to hold a witness in hand and race to thrun.
i'm playing a green stompy i threw together using an initial idea i had before i found this primer. predator ooze and young wolf are some favorites of mine that i haven't found many people to be running. i put nykthos in because i love it, and i like the fit for its ability to play around Mana Leak, and it can allow for 6G instead of 4G on turn 4. i've taken banefire out; didn't work well for me.
(2 separate decks. i'm still tweaking the naya chord-control but i'm missing 3 primal command. i put stompy together to play at the shops)
Thrun is amazing. He has won me games. Banefire is a 2x in my board right now. Having some removal or the ability to send it to the face has been awesome.
Looking now, but do we have a list for what he was playing? Also I really hate how twitch is now muting the past broadcasts for "copy righted music". Nobody goes to Twitch to listen to music FFS...
I know Wistful Selkie is played for the devotion, is the draw a card a big deal on it? Has predator ooze been tested instead, or as a split? Could help the boardwipe issue
A lot of the time I straight up race combo and Selkie helps a lot with digging for cards as well as devotion. Haven't tried Ooze but it still dies to Path without being a huge threat until it's been on the board for at least a few turns. I think if you want a back-up stompy plan against disruption heavy decks you're better off with either Leatherback Baloth or Thrun, the Last Troll
I have liked 1x P. Ooze and 3x Selkie in my list. I have tried all P. Ooze but I think that is the wrong number. Maybe a 2-2 split might work.
Curdbros your elf deck is really great. I've been searching for a way to make Tooth and Nail viable for a while and finally found this thread and especially your deck. Here is my current decklist:
With Eidolon of Blossoms on the board the draw engine becomes crazzy, especially when you start casting Abundant growth, drawing 2 cards for 1 mana. It also has a nice 2 green for devotion.
The Freed from the Real combo happens actually more often than I'd expected. I really think it synergizes very well with the TN oriented decks.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
i'm playing a green stompy i threw together using an initial idea i had before i found this primer. predator ooze and young wolf are some favorites of mine that i haven't found many people to be running. i put nykthos in because i love it, and i like the fit for its ability to play around Mana Leak, and it can allow for 6G instead of 4G on turn 4. i've taken banefire out; didn't work well for me.
(2 separate decks. i'm still tweaking the naya chord-control but i'm missing 3 primal command. i put stompy together to play at the shops)
I've been splashing White for Ranger of Eos in the main-deck. Mark of Asylum, Proclamation of Rebirth in the side really help a lot against sweepers of all types. White also opens up Path to Exile as well as Rest In Peace, Rule of Law, Leyline of Sanctity.
Wondering how possible it could be to make Seedcradle Witch into a combo piece. If you can load up a Forest with Utopia Sprawls, possibly Fertile Ground or Overgrowth you can proceed to make an infinite/infinite Arbor Elf.
There's Spike-Feeder/Archangel of Thune
Then there's Emrakul, The Eons Torn/Xenegos, God of Revels or Flame-Kin Zealot
That's all I can really come up with that see much play in Modern.
There's random infinite generators like Bloom Tender/Freed From the Real or Devoted Druid/QuillSpike
Are there advantages/disadvantages to Kikki that someone could elucidate for me?
Getting infinite life with Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder is nice, and a little more durable against removal, but having infinite life isn't a guaranteed win like damage is.
I'm not sure how often it would come up, but Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be gotten back with Eternal Witness, and while not unreasonable to be hard cast in our deck as it is in most, but it is still a lot more mana than Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
The infinite mana combos are nice, but they require a 3rd card as a win condition which makes them less reliable and harder to assemble.
the emrakul with xenogs combo is best used in a tooth and nail combo version.
with the new set, i have heard from my friends talking about collective company with melira combo, like anafenza the first kin tree with murderous redcap, kitchen finks and a sac outlet. it is an option that we can look into in the toolbox verion that splash more colour like azban version while the naya version can go for kiki-restoration combo version.
recently, i played my toolbox version against grixis delver. post sideboard, my opponent bring in a lot of anti green, anti white creature removal spells. i was very surprise so i asked him why does he devote so much slot against these 2 colour? his answer: siege rhino. he said my main board thrun is a threat that he can't deal with. therefore, i think thrun have a place in the deck against the control match-up, also due to popularity of azban and such, players are bringing more hate against these match-up and we are caught in between. thrun helps a lot in this scenario.
Two new green cards caught me.
Sheltered Aerie is this likely too slow? the double fixing is nice though for splashes.
Explosive Vegetation (new to modern) could this be a good way to ramp and fix our mana, would have to play more basics though.
Savage Ventmaw could potentially have uses in the right deck as well.
I love his explanation of house Knight of Reliquary can be used to utilize less Nykthos and have a slightly "greedier" mana base (with tons of 1-of's). Seems a bit "glass cannon" when just looking at the list (of course that is just an assumption and could be totally different in actual testing); but he brings some really interesting ideas to the table. Looks like he may have found a deck where harmonize works (bridges the gap between his small cards and his large cards.).
I really do like knight of the reliquary and Lotus cobra in tooth and nail decks. Tooth and nail decks feel like the "combo" end of the spectrum (where you really do just want to go all-in and get to 9-mana as quickly as possible. KOR allows for this (along with the Devotion Core) especially with Lotus Cobra...while still being a size able threat at times.
Great example of a Tooth and Nail variant! Thanks for posting it. I'll add it to the primer when I get back to the office.
Thanks Bingsoo!
I'm glad it's working for you thus far; and that you are thinking of making it your own with a black splash version. Please keep us updated on how you improve upon the deck for your play and how it plays/tests.
You also bring up some really great points about elf builds in general (and points that mirror devotion decks in general). It's items I've wanted to address in the past, and this is a great conversation to do so. I'll "spoiler" them, however, so you can read the ones you want and skip the ideas you don't.
On Elf Decks Weaknesses and How to Mitigate them with Devotion
Elf decks are a essential synergy-based decks. Actually most green devotion decks are also synergy-based decks. Where "good stuff" decks utilize the most powerful cards at their converted mana cost; synergy-based thanks rely on the sum being greater than the parts (at least in the early turns)...This comes with obvious strengths when things go to plan (you can often out pace the opponent to a much larger board); however there are some weaknesses that cannot be overlooked, including:
1. The removal of one piece can be far more disastrous for a synergy-based deck as it cannot recover as easily in "top deck mode". When a larger portion of the deck is "support"; The potential to top deck your way out of an unfavorable position is much lower. I have the same chance of top decking an Arbor Elf or a Nettle Sentinel (without the combo) as I do a Genesis Wave...needless to say, you really don't want to get there.
2. Because both elf decks (and green devotion decks for that matter) are board-based; any spell that can remove multiple pieces from a board is going to greatly harm the deck. It not only hurts the current board; it reduces the power of future actions. Ample removal essentially becomes time-walks against us (as we have to rebuild our position).
Simply put, removal (especially mass removal) is terrible for most elf decks. Spot removal can pick off the "important" creatures and board wipes can be as high as 10-for-1's (or more depending on the board).
Given my testing for many months on end, however, I found that there were two ways to combat this:
1. Card draw
Far and away the best way to deal with removal (including board wipes) is having plenty of 2-for-1's or more (Genesis Wave is often a 6-for-1, 8-for-1, 4-for-1, etc...you can get to the point where X=the rest of your deck but in general X = 4 to 10). A lot of removal in modern is 1-for-1 removal (path, bolt, abrupt decay, etc.). This is due to the prevalence and power of the "good stuff" decks. Its why lingering souls is currently such a good card. If you are constantly filling the board with permanents; the opponent has to choose which single permanent they will remove leaving the rest. This allows you to essentially build synergy and play "through" the removal. When you are playing several X-for-1's on a consistent basis; even multiple 1-for-1's don't bother you. It also lets you play more "freely", knowing you will have additional threats in the future.
In my case, due to Cloudstone Curio; there are multiple card-draw-loops. Because devotion is built up rather quickly and 1-for-1 removal is not nearly as powerful against me (due to 2-for-1 permanents and X-for-1 spells); often times I will have a ton of mana and the ability to "loop" cards that allows me to use the mana to draw many cards in a single turn...it gets crazy from there because you begin to draw into Garruk Wildspeaker's to untap Nykthos, 2nd copies of Nykthos to play as your land for turn, etc. to continue to "loop" indefinitely (Essentially once you hit a certain point it is highly likely you will be able to draw out your entire deck)...but that is another point altogether. The point is that this card draw is FAR more advantageous than any 4-6 additional elves could be. No single Immaculate Magistrate or Llanowar Elves will make up for the ability to draw 5+ cards in a single turn like an Abundant Growth loop will.
And while it's less important, traditionally creature removal and enchantment removal are separate cards; and thus cards like Supreme Verdict and Anger of the Gods are far less disastrous for me as they would be for other elf decks. I can't count the times I've had an opponent play a Supreme Verdict only for me to turn around and draw 5-7 cards the next turn (as the creature board wipes to remove Garruk, Abundant Growth, Utopia Sprawl, or Cloudstone Curio...). With 8 mana, I can cast an Abundant Growth, bounce the other, and continue to do so drawing a card for each 1-green mana played. This ability to instantly refill your hand and board is ONLY available due to devotion. It wasn't really a possibility until devotion was made.
In elf decks, you have to have enough elves to ensure the synergy between them works; but the remainder of the deck should be dedicated to (a) card draw to mitigate the devastating effect mass removal can have, and (b) taking advantage of that synergy to win the game (cards like Ezuri, Purphoros, Kessig Wolf Run, Garruk's overrun, etc.). Synergy decks are not great in "top deck mode" (as many good stuff decks are); so it is essential that we do what we can to continue to fill the board and our hand.
2. Mana-sinks
This actually applies to non-elf devotion decks as well. Due to the fact that synergy base decks can be disrupted, it's very important that many of the cards have uses both in the early game as well as the late game. WOTC is printing more and more of these "scale-able" cards recently. This is especially the case with win-cons. Ezuri, Nylea, Kessig Wolf Run, Genesis Wave, Banefire, and even Eternal Witness/Primal Command have "scale-able" uses/power depending on the mana you have). This is paramount to playing against a full range of unknown opponents.
When cards are good on turn two and great on turn five; no matter your position/mana, you don't have "dead" cards. Nothing is worse for synergy decks (or devotion decks) than having dead cards. We want to be consistently filling the board with permanents and green symbols; and cards in our hand don't do that :). There are a TON of "scalable" cards out there (and wizards has been printing more and more in recent sets with cards like Tasigur, Shaman of the Great Hunt, Genesis Hydra, Mastery of the Unseem, and others. This is one of the larger problems for many of the original devotion decks (and some like the UG Wave deck played by Scotty Mac. When a deck consists of 50% 1-2 drops and 50% 5-8 drops; there are going to be games where nearly every card in your hand is dead...this is NOT what devotion wants to do. Mana-sinks greatly smooth these games out while also continuing your synergy (as they also add more green symbols to the board).
This really goes back to card and advantage. My brother and I are nuts about card advantage; and cards that say "draw a card" on them often are not the most effective form of card advantage there is in Modern. In honesty, most are just card selection (you don't truly net any physical cards)...but permanents with additional mana-sinks/activated abilities are really just a card with an additional spell "hooked" to it. Every time you activate the permanent's ability you effectively have cast a spell...Ezuri's "elf overrun" ability is the same when he's on board as it would be if I had scarf called "Elf Overrun" that read, "instant [mana]2GGG/[mana]: All elves get +3/+3 and trample until end of turn." Even better, however; is that because it's not a tap ability; it's like I have Multiple copies!!! This is what makes mana sinks so powerful. They can be played early or late; and they effectively are built-in card advantage (which is truly the single most important factor in synergy based decks.
Most games in Magic are won by either (a) playing more powerful spells than the opponent or (b) playing a higher quantity of spells than the opponent. Generally speaking (not 100% rule, but very likely); the person that more efficiently spends their mana and/or spends more mana in a game is going to win. Basically, you "buy" wins with mana This doesn't just apply to devotion decks. My brother Gavin plays Jeskai decks with cards like Grim Lavamancer (who essentially gives him 3-4 Shock's every game, Geist of Saint Traft who gives you a Serra Angel each time he attacks, and Snapcaster Magewho literally lets you play an additional spell...his latest deck takes advantage of prowess (which essentially adds a spell to every non-creature spell, albeit a small +1/+1 boost) and Shu yun, The Silent Tempest...Shu Yun is NUTS as he essentially has a spell hooked to him that states pay two mana, target creature gets double-strike until end of turn...cast this only if you've cast another non-creature spell..." Having this psuedo card in his "hand" any time Shu Yun is on board is huge. With additional cards like Outpost Siege (to basically draw a card each turn), Thassa (who has Aqueous form basically "hooked to her" and "scry 1" spell each turn....It's these types of card advantage that quickly add up way more than any "draw 2 cards" spell can in your hand. I could go on and on about this (as this is a core philosophy for how we build decks...) but it is SO important to devotion decks.
Devotion decks get an even greater "boost" from card advantage because each additional permanent leads to more green symbols, which leads to more mana, which leads to more activations, which leads to more cards, which leads to more permanents...it's a snowball effect. There are times where you can go to far to focusing on card-advantage (I did it with my enchantment-devotion deck); but it is VERY hard. There's almost no amount of advantage that's too much
3. Infinite Combo
This is not entirely necessary; but I've found the best synergy based decks I've played have all contained an infinite combo. This most likely has to do with the way I build the decks. There is no better "synergy" among permanent's than an infinite combo/win-con; and when you focus on card advantage; there is no better option than "accidentally" drawing into the win
Many devotion decks already do this (with Resto Angel/Kiki-Kiki, etc.) so it's not a novel idea; but any time you can have the potential for "oops, I win." You're in a good place in Moderm You will see so many different decks in Modern, that knowing you have a set of cards that will win 99% of games is a advantage few decks can have. This also creates additional synergy with a focus on card-draw / card-advantage; as you are always a few card draws away from winning the game outright (regardless of your current position).
While all of this is a little "theory" and more abstract deck-building ideas (I put it in spoilers to save space and so if you didn't want to read it you don't have to); it honestly does coincide with the way I built the Elf-based deck (and how I build Devotion decks in general). By basically replacing a portion of the non-combo "support" elves (like lords, token generators, etc.) and replacing them with pure forms of card advantage; you greatly mitigate the largest weakness Elf decks can have (removal) while still keeping many of the absolute best aspects of elf decks (the crazy amount of mana that can be generated early, the potential infinite combo, their ability to quickly fill a board, and the benefits of the tribal cards made for them.)
Answer to your Question about Coiling Oracle and Splashing Black
You CAN do without the two Coiling Oracle's without completely derailing the deck. There are only two of them I use them for a few reasons. The first is that the most powerful synergy in the deck revolves around the "draw a card" elves and Heritage Druid. Having Elvish Visionary's and Coiling Oracles that both draw a card when they ETB AND also can tap for mana with Heritage Druid becomes outrageous when you get a Cloudstone Curio or Temur Sabertooth on board (as you can tap them, bounce them, draw a card, and tap them again...)
Having said this, however, Coiling Oracle does require you to play blue mana (which is a downside). You can only "loop" them based on the amount of blue mana you can create. While Coiling Oracle "loops" are better (because each land comes into play) they are also not nearly as "high-volume" (as even if you have 20 green mana; if you only have 3 blue mana; you can only loop a Coiling Oracle three times). This is why there are only two of them compared to four Visionaries.
To be honest, If you wanted to splash black, you would most likely want to play a slightly different deck in sum....Replacing the Oracles with Abrupt Decay; however, would most likely somewhat "balance out" one another. While you can't loop Abrupt Decay and they will slow the deck down in some cases; there will be other cases where you remove a very important card from the game that gives you the extra turn you need to live. Coiling Oracle, while important to me, are probably the easiest card to remove from the deck (as you no longer have to play blue at that point).
At that point, you also have access to some great sideboard cards (like Thoughtsieze and Stain the Mind) to combat the worst match ups for the deck (which tend to be Twin, Infect, and Tron)
I hope this helps! I'd love to see your list and hear about your testing. I'm happy to provide what a deck would like if I splashed black and removed Coiling Oracle if you haven't built your list yet (just let me know).
P.S. I will be posting my testing results (of over 100 of my last games) and am going to post different interactions (as some can be hard to see) and am going to TRY to post some kind of video and/or pictures to show how the games play this weekend for the Elf deck. I just really enjoy the deck and love talking about it So I can't tell you how much I appreciate discussions like this Bingsoo! I hope your version of the deck works out for you too!!
These are spectacular ideas. Sylvan Rangers is a GREAT replacement (and allows you to avoid splashing blue)...and Ranger of Eos could actually be better than Coiling Oracle's. Ranger is AMAZING in elf decks (a 3-for-1, grabs two pieces of the combo,etc.). Caspian's white splashing Elf deck is one I would advise many people to try out.
And just as you said in another post, there are numerous potential infinite combos for devotion decks we can and should be exploring. With the means of producing enough white mana; there's no reason Seedcradle Witch couldn't be a combo piece...Maybe in a devotion deck (now with Assault Formation) and Axebane Guardian...once Axebane Guardian can tap for four mana; he can infinitely be pumped via Seedcradle Witch. But like you said, even in an Elf Build, all it requires is a land that can tap for four (with Utopia Sprawl and Overgrowth) and you've got yourself an infinite combo! GREAT idea! Even with just a a good amount of mana and an Arbor Elf (say you have 8 mana and the ability to make it 12 by untapping an Arbor Elf twice...you still get to give the elf +9/+9! And as a 1-drop; Seedcradle Witch can be played early to give Heritage Druid another elf to tap. Between this and Ranger of Eos you may be on to something (as there are no better sideboard cards than White...and you get Worship!)
Just on the Bloom Tender/Freed from the Real...the same could be said with Arbor Elf again...put a Utopia Sprawl set on blue and you have another infinite mana option....this is something we may need to work on...any time you have a couple different avenues to an infinite combo it's a good thing.
It's these types of interactions we should continue to look into (as devotion decks have access to that other decks may not). We should probably make a list of potential combos in the Primer in an "Extra Information" section.
I'd love to see your list. I need to add some "Stompy" deck lists to the Primer and would love to add yours (since you've been on here for a while and have a good amount of experience playing your Stompy deck.) Please post (if you have time) the list. Also, if there are any little interactions, testing results, etc. you;d like to post I'd love to add it to the primer!
That was an amazingly informative response, CurdBros! Thanks a TON for sharing so much! I've been playing Elves in Modern ever since I started playing Magic, and wanted to find a way to be competitive in the meta, but even recently, the spot removal and board wipes were too frustrating to continue brewing. That write-up was really enlightening in so many ways.
My personal ambition was to brew an aggro deck that could compete, but I find myself struggling to keep the deck resilient despite the heavy card advantage that the Elves allow. If you do have a black-splash Elf list to share, that would be much appreciated! How do you feel about a semi-toolbox form of Elf Devotion with either Chord of Calling or Genesis Hydra? I am totally convinced that cards like Temur Sabertooth are completely amazing in these decks, but I am also looking at other mana-sink wincons like Chameleon Colossus, Mirror Entity, or Polukranos, World Eater. With black removal spells like the ones you mentioned, I was thinking a midrange deck might work with a variety of different mana-sinks on top of the Elf Devotion core you were talking about.
What are your thoughts on a more interactive Elf Devotion deck?
I'm always appreciative of Elf and Devotion talk. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!
Sylvan Ranger is a really good idea! I love Coiling Oracle, but I just feel like I could lean towards splashing other colors to make the deck more interactive. Thanks for the insight!
Turn One:
1. Breeding Pool (or Forest...doesn't really matter)
2. Arbor Elf
Turn Two:
1. Forest
2. Utopia Sprawl (set to blue)
Tap enchanted Forest for UG...
Tap Arbor Elf to Untap enchanted land.
Re-tap land for total of GGUU
3. Cast Freed from the Reel enchanting Arbor Elf. (Cast with GGUto float U)
4. Use Remaining U to Untap Arbor Elf.
From here we have infinite Green mana!!! ON TURN TWO
With Genesis Wave, Tooth and Nail, etc. You can literally win on turn 2. At worst you just cast your entire hand!
I've been testing for the last several hours with this and it's obviously going to take another several hours to feel like I've got a good feel as to what a competitive deck would look like (I.e. Not just a pure glass cannon)...but this is a literal turn 2 infinite mana combo (that works in any Simic-based devotion deck). This could be a great deal for devotion decks (as turn two wins are very rare in Modern.)
I'll post my list tomorrow....but the hands where you have arbor elf, utopia sprawl, freed from the real, forest, forest, Genesis wave seem crazy broken :). I'm excited because I can see this being ported VERY easily into an elf build; but also into TONS other devotion builds. Tooth and Nail, etc. Redundancy can come in the form of Voyagimg Satyr, Bloom Tender, Fertile Grounds, and Drift of Phantasms (to tutor for Freed)...those woukd require turn 3; but that's still lighting fast (and they're good in most devotion decks without the combo).
I tend to get overly excited about stuff like this; so it may not be as amazing as I'm making it sound...I can say, however, that just in my brief testing it seems pretty nuts! :).
Let me know what you guys think. Is this as good as it seems? An I missing something because I want it to work?
Freed is obviously not useful with Chord of Calling. I can't think of many tutors for it besides Idylic Tutor or, like you mentioned, Drift of Phantasms. I think of it more as a useful 2ndary combo you can pull out of nowhere.
What possible cards could combo with it in Simic? Deadeye Navigator + Mystic Snake, Venser, Shaper Savant, all Chord-able, Command-able. I'm less keen on running Tooth and Nail with this combo because you have too many disparate parts that do nothing. The Chord/Command route seem better in non-Elf builds.
Crazy fun combo!
Very good points Caspian...you are right that either (a) it could (will) be added to one of the two Elf Builds I have (aggro and combo) and/or would require it's own deck altogether. It's really not a card you can port into the Toolbox deck (as you don't get any additional value out of it). At least in the Elf aggro build you can attach it to an Elvish Archdruid if you want, use it to start an enchantment/Abundant Growth loop, etc. Multiple uses are a must when dealing with combo pieces (as you are only really going to have all your pieces 50% of the time).
I do agree with you that the Toolbox version is really built on the back(s) of Chord of Calling and Primal Command tutors...I was initially surprised that there was never any Summoner's Pact's in the deck (as they allow you to act more "quickly" at the cost of your next turn (which can be useful with "hoser" cards); but with the use of so many non-green creatures I somewhat understand...that, and you just can't beat Chord of Calling (directly on board, instant-speed, convoke, just amazing).
Thus far, I've played it in my current elf build as a secondary (or in this case tertiary) combo as well as in Aggro Elves...I'm actually not sure which it works better in It does kind of make you want to change a few pieces of the deck to help support it; but you hit it right on the head that it almost works best when it is just a random card that lets you win out of nowhere! I'm testing it all day today and will present a list or two later today to show where it's worked best.
I just looked at MTGGoldfish as well....boy oh boy is there a good amount of Green Devotion Results on there! I wouldn't be surprised if we got back to Tier 2 soon! Just takes some more paper play (but that's really hard to monitor and keep track of in the Modern Meta). I'll post links to the 3-1 and 4-1 recent results in the next post.
I could also drop Selkie all together and run 3 Witness, 2 Prime Time, and 4 Leatherback Baloth with 2 Domri to make better use of the -2. I'm just not sure it's worth losing the card draw from Selkie to do so.
It could help with creature issues, though without Baloth I'm not sure there are enough big creatures in the list to make it worthwhile.
I've also come across a couple of lists running Akroma's Memorial. What are your thoughts?
The best way to go off would be from a single Primal Command, loop into 4 E-Witts into a Temur Sabertooth, bouncing an Ewitt to keep looping gain infinte life, search and play as many green creatures in your deck as you like, end with Craterhoof if they don't scoop. This also applies to a single Chord which can fetch an ewitt and a tooth to do the same thing. It does seem pretty bonkers, although it is 6 cards, Arbor Elf, 2 untapped lands that tap for green, Utopia Sprawl, Freed, and a Chord or Command. Certainly a thing you could try to do.
Looking now, but do we have a list for what he was playing? Also I really hate how twitch is now muting the past broadcasts for "copy righted music". Nobody goes to Twitch to listen to music FFS...
I have liked 1x P. Ooze and 3x Selkie in my list. I have tried all P. Ooze but I think that is the wrong number. Maybe a 2-2 split might work.
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
5 Forest
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures
4 Arbor elf
2 Coiling Oracle
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Eternal Witness
2 Seedcradle Witch
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Genesis wave
1 Primal Command
4 Tooth and Nail
Enchantments
4 Abundant Growth
2 Freed from the Real
4 Utopia Sprawl
Planeswalker
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
With Eidolon of Blossoms on the board the draw engine becomes crazzy, especially when you start casting Abundant growth, drawing 2 cards for 1 mana. It also has a nice 2 green for devotion.
The Freed from the Real combo happens actually more often than I'd expected. I really think it synergizes very well with the TN oriented decks.