I like the riders. I almost prefer them over fulminator mage as with sabertooth and resto angel there is (albeit small) flicker/bounce opportunity, it hits non basics as well as basics, and you don't lose board presence to destroy the land (though you often want to not pay echo later to free up your next turn to do other stuff, in which case, it acts as a free blocker in your opponents next turn, which I really like)
The downside is the extra cost... but I don't see it as a deal breaker.
I could actually see playinga riders a fulminator and a slime in the mainboard to increase outs.
Knight of the reliquary is a funny one. I've never enjoyed her on board whenever she has been there (and I have tried her out, though not exhaustively) and I suspect it's often because I run a skinny mana base that I'm not necessarily thrilled to sac a land, even if it is to get a Nykthos. I possibly wrong though as the potential to get a Nykthos at will is clearly powerful.
Thinking on it, I'm very likely wrong, it's just such a careful balance with the toolbox, and I'm still not sure whether advancing our own plan, or stymieing our opponents is the mot valuable.
I will say though that I very much like am warming to a higher land destruction/disruption concentration. I think it may work, but I don't think purkle is wrong with the discard outlet. I am a little concerned by losing permanents to discard slots though. as always, one of the finer puzzles of this deck is the balance we need to strike between board commitment and disruption, as too much of one at the expense of the other can give us problems in either not enough critical mass or leaving ourselves too wide open to a beating by combo.
I'm looking forward to trying to puzzle it out though (and in the end, the answer might well be that it's meta dependent, and that in each environment we may have to punt a matchup or two)
One thing that does concern me though is the post-board fulminator plan that both junk and jund will bring in (an that living end have going on main). I actually think that against them, a slaughter games post board to hit land destruction may be a plan.
The deck is boros, but could be easily tweaked into a naya deck by removing the spells and the soulfire grand master.
A funny trick if you like to leave your opponent manaless is to play boom // bust, targeting one of your fetchland (which you sacrifice in response). 2 mana LD is awesome
Has anyone suggested mixing the hive mind combo in with the green devotion deck? You can use summoner's pact just as a search tool when you need it or you can use it to win. You also get access to slaughter's pact. I'ts just a suggestion.
hive mind seems odd we get our devotion off of all the creatures we plays and generally those creatures are designed to attack hive mind seems like it would split the strategy in two where your deck is an an aggro deck but now its also a combo deck having a back up plan is nice but have a such a radical difference in gameplay between the two decks would make it so 1/2 is a bad nykthos deck and the other a bad amulet bloom deck
then again in new to this primer and have no idea what im talking about
test it, i would love to see a list and hear how it is i just dont have high hopes
So this deck is trying to beat down and disrupt at the same time. It makes use of Nykthos big mana by chaining together Primal Commands, pumping via Nylea, pumping Chameleon Colossus, recurring Finks and Hedge-Mages via Temur Sabertooth.
Sword of Feast and Famine is amazing with Primal Command and Nykthos. Troll Ascetic wears is well as does Thrun. It allows a vanilla beat-down plan to really go into overdrive by keeping the table clogged with many beaters as well as helping to chain Primal Commands faster.
Duress is the key disruption card. Thoughtseize will cause too much life-loss I think since I'm relying heavily on Overgrown Tombs (and a 5th Tomb in the form of Murmuring Bosk) as they turn on Hag Hedge-Mage. Duress deals with combo pieces, removal, oppossing discard and countermagic. Hag-Hedge Mage and Sword both supplement the discard suite. EDIT: On second thought Thoughtseize is worth it in every non-burn match-up. There's not removal...so Thoughtseize wins.
Hag Hedge-Mage is a very interesting card. A not-as-good Eternal Witness trigger and one less Green MAna symbol...she nonetheless also causes discard. This is very relevant when chaining Primal Commands. Put their land on top AND cause discard means that options narrow twice as fast. If you're chaining Commands with her you will lose your draw step BUT you will also be stalling the opponent AND stripping their hand. At some point Temur Sabertooth comes along and can start to really hurt their options.
Keep in mind that the discard is backed-up by difficult to deal with threats who are attacking. Keep in mind that the difficult to deal with threats are supported by Discard. I think both sides of the strategy work together AND it still maintains the core Devotion identity.
The board is loose as this is a thought experiment deck - I have 0 time to actually play. 3 fulminator Mages seems pretty sweet, especially when backed up with Cavern of Souls!
Wishing I could fit in some removal MD and also Rancor...man that would be sweet with Geists and Hexproof!
Man, thrun and boil are so awesome. Especially with boseiju. Altough it is tempting to switch to choke since it can come down on turn two. Still never picked up the wsitful selkie. The deck for me either goes 1-3 or 3-1.
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combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
The problem with land destruction (my experience being nearly 20 years of playing death & taxes, ponza, geddon, jund, and a variety of other decks which utilised land destruction) is that your opponent only needs to cast one or two things and the whole plan is out the window. It does nothing in the first couple of turns because LD effects are all expensive, and it doesn't have any positive "fallout" I.e. Discard not only disrupts your opponent's early game, punishes shaky opening hands but as positive fallout it's also a great way to force through important spells and protect clutch permanents from removal. Land destruction is kind of like stemming a tide and it only really works if you have something like smokestack keeping their creatures in check.
It's complicated to go through the nuances of why it's not a good route to go down in terms of disruption, but the short version is "too expensive, comes online too late, only relevant against specific decks, does negative work if your opponent gets creatures on board because it clogs up your hand with dead cards. Also super soft to counters and opposing discard and the tempo loss from a 3-mana do-nothing spell is insane "
Discard on the other hand comes down early, regardless of how quick the rest of your hand may be. It gives you time when you need it, and stalls your opponent out of clutch spells which thwart your game plan. It gives you perfect information, gets rid of opponent interaction (which is a fragile deck like this' biggest weakness) and generally smooths the gameplan enough that the dilution of the main 'core' cards is worth it.
the only version ignoring this discussion on disruption should be the hyper-fast combo versions which just want to race. Slower more deliberate versions (toolbox etc) really need the disruption, and not just land destruction. I'm talking proper multi-faceted disruption like discard offers. It proactively gives good game against combo, wrecks the mirror match, allows you to not auto-loses against decks like twin (which can play tempo/control) and apart from anything else can allow you to make correct plays and disrupt unknown decks and weird ones like amulet combo (which is too fast to race).
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
That's fine philosophically, but one of our worst matchups is Tron, because this deck wants to go over the top of other midrange decks, and no deck goes over the top more than Tron. The best way to disrupt their plan is to kill one of their Tron pieces.
LD is not seeing play and has not really seen much play in Modern since it's inception. Yes, there are certainly fringe players but they are highly focused on LD but they are the exception that proves the rule. I'm inclined to echo Purklepuff's statements on LD and leave it at that. I have tried many times over to make LD work and it's a difficult strategy to win with. Cards like Plow Under are incredibly enticing and powerful...but so hard to get to work!
I also think that Purkle's observation that any 'fair' decks in Modern only exist because of cheap discard. Probably also because of Tarmogoyf being a big out-of-lightning-bolt-range monster.
Eternal Witness (and maybe Hag Hedge-Mage) works well with Discard because it's cheap and thus it's more likely we can double discard in one turn which is pretty nasty.
I'm going to now suggest moving towards discard and less interactive creatures. Cut Arbor Elf for Fertile Ground. Adding 4x B-Discard spell still gives you 8 turn 1 plays. Thrun, Troll Ascetic, Strangleroot Geist, Kitchen Finks. These cards help the discard plan by letting you ignore removal - for the most part - and instead focus on their business spells. Meanwhile your business spells are intact and putting on pressure. Creatures that are outside the range of Lightning Bolt are good. Outside the range of Bolt ANd Abrupt Decay are better. Outside the range of Bolt, abrupt Decay AND Path to Exile are the best.
With this basic shell you still get to choose your non-Genesis Wave route. Primal Command? Chord? Plow Under?
this last parting idea of yours interests me a lot. for her mana cost you get 1 devotion, a cycling effect (easy to turn on) and potentially a late game discard effect for grinding out games against combo/control.
cycling miracle effects seems pretty insane in this deck. i already played bonfire of the damned and enjoyed the effect in this deck, i think there's some nice potential there, and i'd consider running hedge-mage as a 2-of if the deck could support it. we've seen as a community how powerful recurred miracles can be. it has caught people by surprise in the past. i think it's fringe but has high potential if done right.
i'm continuing to build JUND nykthos, and develpping the numbers. i think for the toolbox option, discard is essential, unless we can find another pathway for disruption (hatebears style)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Having played discard for a while, I do not think you will find the promised land there either.
As mentioned before, discard does not have any effect on the top deck of your opponent and is an horrible top deck when you draw it yourself in the mid-late game.
On top, it is really something you do not want to have against affinity or zoo and decks with cantrips do not care that much about it.
Having played discard for a while, I do not think you will find the promised land there either.
As mentioned before, discard does not have any effect on the top deck of your opponent and is an horrible top deck when you draw it yourself in the mid-late game.
On top, it is really something you do not want to have against affinity or zoo and decks with cantrips do not care that much about it.
You could well be right. I think it needs testing. What would the alternative be? It may be a necessary evil.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
This may fall into the area of 'cool things' but if it worked, lets think about what it might look like.
hag hedge, fulminator, bonfire, liliana, discard, eternal witness, sabertooth, abrupt decay, definitely utopias if not also arbor elves, there is probably some potential there, but I think that it might need a concerted focus on it rather than a side plan.
The problem I always found with bonfire was the hit or miss nature of it and the requirement for early red so as not to feel bad when you draw it without the ability to cast it, however, +1'ing Lili, and hag hedging the bonfire for the following turn doesn't sound entirely awful...
Having played discard for a while, I do not think you will find the promised land there either.
As mentioned before, discard does not have any effect on the top deck of your opponent and is an horrible top deck when you draw it yourself in the mid-late game.
On top, it is really something you do not want to have against affinity or zoo and decks with cantrips do not care that much about it.
It's possible that Discard + Primal Command(Plow Under?) shore that up. Keep their deck stacked and keep their hand light.
See this is the kind of out-of-the-box deckbuilding that could push nykthos over the edge. Nykthos doesn't have to be an all-in strategy, perhaps just a way to force wins through midrange Durdlebutt opponents by out-resource-ing your opponent in the mid game. Recycling effects are pretty much a good fit for this deck because it gives you a mana sink worth using, and the effects you generally want to recycle are good by themselves and can be perfectly fine if you don't get the critical mass of devotion you require.
Liliana is an interesting one. I've considered it before. Incredible with eternal witness, but a bit hard on mana. You'd need arbor elves no question as it let's you tap a sprawl (on black) twice with no worries.
Do do this kind of plan you'd have to run lighter on creatures and build the deck for redundanCy with maybe some light disruption to hold it together.
I'm thinking a wild mongrel type creature would be useful. Anyone know any that are modern legal in jund colours?
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Indeed. Had quite forgotten about him. Seems to fit the bill. It's also conveniently a very interesting secondary way to build devotion if you're struggling. With liliana in the deck you could potentially find black a reasonable option to use when drawing mana from nykthos for a big bonfire. Hag hedge-mage also provides black/green so it's reasonable.
Saying that, in a miracles version of the deck you'd need some significant set-up time and redundancy. Early discard and powerful roadblocks are key. Green and black both provide good options so i think it's doable. The discard is to strip combo players hands and the roadblocks disrupt tempo plans and zoo/junk. Kitchen finks, vampire nighthawk as well as garruk wildspeaker all provide value options for blockers and could be strongly considered. Strangleroot geist is potential but less likely. Spellskite seems like a lock? There's a lot to consider if this idea was to come to fruition. I'm not suggesting it would work, but the cards to support it are in theory there.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
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The downside is the extra cost... but I don't see it as a deal breaker.
I could actually see playinga riders a fulminator and a slime in the mainboard to increase outs.
Knight of the reliquary is a funny one. I've never enjoyed her on board whenever she has been there (and I have tried her out, though not exhaustively) and I suspect it's often because I run a skinny mana base that I'm not necessarily thrilled to sac a land, even if it is to get a Nykthos. I possibly wrong though as the potential to get a Nykthos at will is clearly powerful.
Thinking on it, I'm very likely wrong, it's just such a careful balance with the toolbox, and I'm still not sure whether advancing our own plan, or stymieing our opponents is the mot valuable.
I will say though that I very much like am warming to a higher land destruction/disruption concentration. I think it may work, but I don't think purkle is wrong with the discard outlet. I am a little concerned by losing permanents to discard slots though. as always, one of the finer puzzles of this deck is the balance we need to strike between board commitment and disruption, as too much of one at the expense of the other can give us problems in either not enough critical mass or leaving ourselves too wide open to a beating by combo.
I'm looking forward to trying to puzzle it out though (and in the end, the answer might well be that it's meta dependent, and that in each environment we may have to punt a matchup or two)
One thing that does concern me though is the post-board fulminator plan that both junk and jund will bring in (an that living end have going on main). I actually think that against them, a slaughter games post board to hit land destruction may be a plan.
The deck is boros, but could be easily tweaked into a naya deck by removing the spells and the soulfire grand master.
A funny trick if you like to leave your opponent manaless is to play boom // bust, targeting one of your fetchland (which you sacrifice in response). 2 mana LD is awesome
then again in new to this primer and have no idea what im talking about
test it, i would love to see a list and hear how it is i just dont have high hopes
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Hag Hedge-Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Temur Sabertooth
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Duress
4 Primal Command
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Murmuring Bosk
5 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
So this deck is trying to beat down and disrupt at the same time. It makes use of Nykthos big mana by chaining together Primal Commands, pumping via Nylea, pumping Chameleon Colossus, recurring Finks and Hedge-Mages via Temur Sabertooth.
The threats are resilient: Strangleroot Geist, Troll Ascetic, Chameleon Colossus, Nylea, God of the Hunt and Thrun, The Last Troll. They don't fold to removal and with the inclusion of Cavern of Souls set to Shaman many of them don't fold to countermagic. This means they continue to attack and continue to maintain board presence for fuelling Nykthos.
Sword of Feast and Famine is amazing with Primal Command and Nykthos. Troll Ascetic wears is well as does Thrun. It allows a vanilla beat-down plan to really go into overdrive by keeping the table clogged with many beaters as well as helping to chain Primal Commands faster.
Duress is the key disruption card. Thoughtseize will cause too much life-loss I think since I'm relying heavily on Overgrown Tombs (and a 5th Tomb in the form of Murmuring Bosk) as they turn on Hag Hedge-Mage. Duress deals with combo pieces, removal, oppossing discard and countermagic. Hag-Hedge Mage and Sword both supplement the discard suite. EDIT: On second thought Thoughtseize is worth it in every non-burn match-up. There's not removal...so Thoughtseize wins.
Hag Hedge-Mage is a very interesting card. A not-as-good Eternal Witness trigger and one less Green MAna symbol...she nonetheless also causes discard. This is very relevant when chaining Primal Commands. Put their land on top AND cause discard means that options narrow twice as fast. If you're chaining Commands with her you will lose your draw step BUT you will also be stalling the opponent AND stripping their hand. At some point Temur Sabertooth comes along and can start to really hurt their options.
Keep in mind that the discard is backed-up by difficult to deal with threats who are attacking. Keep in mind that the difficult to deal with threats are supported by Discard. I think both sides of the strategy work together AND it still maintains the core Devotion identity.
The board is loose as this is a thought experiment deck - I have 0 time to actually play. 3 fulminator Mages seems pretty sweet, especially when backed up with Cavern of Souls!
Wishing I could fit in some removal MD and also Rancor...man that would be sweet with Geists and Hexproof!
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
It's complicated to go through the nuances of why it's not a good route to go down in terms of disruption, but the short version is "too expensive, comes online too late, only relevant against specific decks, does negative work if your opponent gets creatures on board because it clogs up your hand with dead cards. Also super soft to counters and opposing discard and the tempo loss from a 3-mana do-nothing spell is insane "
Discard on the other hand comes down early, regardless of how quick the rest of your hand may be. It gives you time when you need it, and stalls your opponent out of clutch spells which thwart your game plan. It gives you perfect information, gets rid of opponent interaction (which is a fragile deck like this' biggest weakness) and generally smooths the gameplan enough that the dilution of the main 'core' cards is worth it.
the only version ignoring this discussion on disruption should be the hyper-fast combo versions which just want to race. Slower more deliberate versions (toolbox etc) really need the disruption, and not just land destruction. I'm talking proper multi-faceted disruption like discard offers. It proactively gives good game against combo, wrecks the mirror match, allows you to not auto-loses against decks like twin (which can play tempo/control) and apart from anything else can allow you to make correct plays and disrupt unknown decks and weird ones like amulet combo (which is too fast to race).
Tron (and Amulet) is a specific deck and thus can be SB'd against. Beast Within, Fulminator Mage, Ghost Quarter, Thoughtseize & friends.
I also think that Purkle's observation that any 'fair' decks in Modern only exist because of cheap discard. Probably also because of Tarmogoyf being a big out-of-lightning-bolt-range monster.
Eternal Witness (and maybe Hag Hedge-Mage) works well with Discard because it's cheap and thus it's more likely we can double discard in one turn which is pretty nasty.
I'm going to now suggest moving towards discard and less interactive creatures. Cut Arbor Elf for Fertile Ground. Adding 4x B-Discard spell still gives you 8 turn 1 plays. Thrun, Troll Ascetic, Strangleroot Geist, Kitchen Finks. These cards help the discard plan by letting you ignore removal - for the most part - and instead focus on their business spells. Meanwhile your business spells are intact and putting on pressure. Creatures that are outside the range of Lightning Bolt are good. Outside the range of Bolt ANd Abrupt Decay are better. Outside the range of Bolt, abrupt Decay AND Path to Exile are the best.
With this basic shell you still get to choose your non-Genesis Wave route. Primal Command? Chord? Plow Under?
4x Fertile Ground
3x Garruk
4x Troll Ascetic
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Thrun, The Last Troll
Hag Hedge-Mage plus Miracle spells...Bonfire of the Damned, Revenge of the Hunted, Thunderous Wrath, Terminus . Chaining Bonfire with Nykthos Mana!?! Seriously!? That sounds amazing.
this last parting idea of yours interests me a lot. for her mana cost you get 1 devotion, a cycling effect (easy to turn on) and potentially a late game discard effect for grinding out games against combo/control.
cycling miracle effects seems pretty insane in this deck. i already played bonfire of the damned and enjoyed the effect in this deck, i think there's some nice potential there, and i'd consider running hedge-mage as a 2-of if the deck could support it. we've seen as a community how powerful recurred miracles can be. it has caught people by surprise in the past. i think it's fringe but has high potential if done right.
i'm continuing to build JUND nykthos, and develpping the numbers. i think for the toolbox option, discard is essential, unless we can find another pathway for disruption (hatebears style)
As mentioned before, discard does not have any effect on the top deck of your opponent and is an horrible top deck when you draw it yourself in the mid-late game.
On top, it is really something you do not want to have against affinity or zoo and decks with cantrips do not care that much about it.
You could well be right. I think it needs testing. What would the alternative be? It may be a necessary evil.
hag hedge, fulminator, bonfire, liliana, discard, eternal witness, sabertooth, abrupt decay, definitely utopias if not also arbor elves, there is probably some potential there, but I think that it might need a concerted focus on it rather than a side plan.
The problem I always found with bonfire was the hit or miss nature of it and the requirement for early red so as not to feel bad when you draw it without the ability to cast it, however, +1'ing Lili, and hag hedging the bonfire for the following turn doesn't sound entirely awful...
It's possible that Discard + Primal Command(Plow Under?) shore that up. Keep their deck stacked and keep their hand light.
Liliana is an interesting one. I've considered it before. Incredible with eternal witness, but a bit hard on mana. You'd need arbor elves no question as it let's you tap a sprawl (on black) twice with no worries.
Do do this kind of plan you'd have to run lighter on creatures and build the deck for redundanCy with maybe some light disruption to hold it together.
I'm thinking a wild mongrel type creature would be useful. Anyone know any that are modern legal in jund colours?
EDIT: BTW, it might not be obvious at first glance but every copy increases the devotion (to black)
Indeed. Had quite forgotten about him. Seems to fit the bill. It's also conveniently a very interesting secondary way to build devotion if you're struggling. With liliana in the deck you could potentially find black a reasonable option to use when drawing mana from nykthos for a big bonfire. Hag hedge-mage also provides black/green so it's reasonable.
Saying that, in a miracles version of the deck you'd need some significant set-up time and redundancy. Early discard and powerful roadblocks are key. Green and black both provide good options so i think it's doable. The discard is to strip combo players hands and the roadblocks disrupt tempo plans and zoo/junk. Kitchen finks, vampire nighthawk as well as garruk wildspeaker all provide value options for blockers and could be strongly considered. Strangleroot geist is potential but less likely. Spellskite seems like a lock? There's a lot to consider if this idea was to come to fruition. I'm not suggesting it would work, but the cards to support it are in theory there.