The bannings are interesting. I feel like pod was one of our better matchups and delver one of our worse but I'm worried that twin comes back strong which is terrible for us (or me at least).
I actually believe this is good for us. Twin can be difficult (and more so for the non–combo versions); but if it is the known enemy; we can board to deal with it (defense grid, thorn if amethyst, combust, natures claim, vines of Vastwood, etc.). I saw an interesting idea on the combo elf thread. One of the posters runs Root Maze in his board. I will certainly try it out tonight.
The new meta will have a lot of BGx Siege Rhino, Goyf, Bob, Liliana decks (pure value) which we run over :). So that's good news. Pod was not a bad match up though (although I hated when they pod-Ed for Linvala) but most of those players will just play a Abzan/Jund midrange decks which we are great against.
The banninggs will mean small changes here or there (I'll uodate my list tonight) but I think they end up helping us (maybe most for Stompy decks).
My only fear is that if it gets too good they'll just ban Nyhthos! Ha
I am really sad you forget about me. I was talking about Root Mazes long time ago (I tried elf agro that time), as well as a way to ge even more land hate package (Primal Command, Root Maze, Plow Under, Choke...). Sad Panda is sad.
Another interesting point that rises from the banninggs is that The toolbox version of green devotion may now be the best toolbox in the format :). We have a few posters on here that have championed this deck in the past. I would love to hear what you think.
Here I am not so sure, as I faced Bant Chord + Fauna Shaman Vengevine deck, however you might be right.
It will certainly be one of the stronger toolboxes Curdbros.
I'm curious though, to see how the meta unfolds. Locally I see a fair bit of variation in decks, in fact I never really know what I am going to face off against as it literally could be anything (There is one Stompy player who pretty much always plays Green Stompy, the rest is same people massive variety of decks).
The biggest issue for me ahead of GP Van will be trying to get a handle on my sideboard and a handful of maindeck flex spots as the meta I really expect (Twin, B/G, Scapeshift, Burn, Tron, and a few others) may give me some sideboard headaches. Especially as there won't be many meaningful results between now and then outside of MTGO dailies (which is traditionally a slightly different meta anyway)
put it this way, If we have to spend our time fighting against B/G, Burn, and Zoo we should be ok. If it's Scapeshift, Twin, Ad Nauseam, 8 Rack. then it's going to be a much harder task.
Your mileage may all vary of course, but that's my take as of this morning
And you are right Pedros...you did come up with the Root Maze idea well before I saw it on the Elf Primer. I apologize I forgot.
It will be really interesting how the meta shakes out. The banninggs definitely opened up the format quite a bit. I truly do beleive it made out decks better though. Hypaspist is exactly right though...if hand disruption and combo decks become the "thing" (and we can already be sure that Scapeshift, Twin, Affinity, and RDW are going to be top tier); we may have to ensure (a) we are running the fastest or most disruptive forms of our decks and (b) we develop new sideboards to deal with these decks. I have already started testing what I beleive the meta will look like and my sideboard definitely has to change. while Delver (and Cruise) were awful for us; having Pod (a good match up for us) being 20% of the meta was a real gift to us...we just need to keep our fingers crossed that the holes in the meta get filled with Junk, Jund, Zoo, etc. Rather than 8rack and Ad Nauseum...either way, we still can board for combo-heavy environments as well. It's just fun to see such a huge change! Now we can fill up part of the hole left in the meta!
I wouldn't be too, too hasty with removing scavenging ooze jay, but I agree it 'may need to go. The thing I come back to is how good fulminator Mage is in that slot, although like all non green solutions it doesn't advance plan A. It is however a complete kicking for many decks to see it come down turn 2 and wreck their base. Although I also like avalanche riders there too as it comes down soon enough, gets a beat in with haste and can stick around if required. And really nice to repeat with witness
Both those options though fall down in the devotion side of things, and I feel at one point I went too far down the rabbit hole with the tools and lacked enough green symbols so that I could disrupt and control well enough, but couldn't get my own engine online early enough.
It's a tricky puzzle for sure, but one thing I am certain of. Spells kite is staying main board for me for now.
You should definitely consider Elesh in the changed meta as well. Too good to pass up. She wrecks lots of potential matchups.
I think this changes little for the Elf Combo... it's still a combo deck, it's still facing a disruptive meta (except exchange abrupt decay for bolt) and it's still trying to race Combo.
I think the Wave version this is difficult to call, as more of the difficult to deal with Combo decks and Tron come back into the meta (bad matchups), though it brings back a junk B/G Shell and that is it's natural prey, as well as burn which is manageable with primal commands.
Toolbox lists are in a funny place, I think I'd have been happy to play against pod and delver all day long from a percentages standpoint. Combo makes life more difficult, BG / Junk makes life a little easier.
It's certainly going to be very interesting for us moving forward! (I think Dredgevine may now have a place and be an opponent we can expect)
Bring on the playtesting!
Haha! Great points here!
You are right about Elf Combo...I'll make a few adjustments to the board, etc.; but for the most part there are not any huge shifts to how it is positioned (as it is itself a "combo" deck with a devotion core.
I'm so excited to see how the meta shakes out. Hopefully good for us!
These are the bannings this deck has been waiting for. Jund/Junk and burn will be everywhere. This deck feasts on those matchups
This is definitely a potential outcome which would be HUGE for us. As devotion players, we eat up these decks. They just can't keep up. I just tested my deck against a Junk deck (Liliana, Dark Confidant, Siege Rhino, Goyf, Abrupt Decay, Path, Dismember, one Sluaghter Pact, Thoughtseize, etc.)...I didn't lose a single game. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the meta moves more this way than the "twin way" (as all of the non-combo devotion decks really just deal with these style decks in the board).
I normally play White Rock but I wanted to take a break and try something fun. Trying a little more slow Green Devotion Deck for tomorrow night. Thoughts?
It will certainly be one of the stronger toolboxes Curdbros.
I'm curious though, to see how the meta unfolds. Locally I see a fair bit of variation in decks, in fact I never really know what I am going to face off against as it literally could be anything (There is one Stompy player who pretty much always plays Green Stompy, the rest is same people massive variety of decks).
The biggest issue for me ahead of GP Van will be trying to get a handle on my sideboard and a handful of maindeck flex spots as the meta I really expect (Twin, B/G, Scapeshift, Burn, Tron, and a few others) may give me some sideboard headaches. Especially as there won't be many meaningful results between now and then outside of MTGO dailies (which is traditionally a slightly different meta anyway)
put it this way, If we have to spend our time fighting against B/G, Burn, and Zoo we should be ok. If it's Scapeshift, Twin, Ad Nauseam, 8 Rack. then it's going to be a much harder task.
Your mileage may all vary of course, but that's my take as of this morning
I can tell you we're very optimistic in the 8Rack thread.
If the format is more aggro more midrange deck, come back of zoo with geist, I'm afraid we will see more Damnation and Wrath of god ... and this is not so cool
At least for the stompy deck as mine I guess I will have to trade the coursers for predator ooze
If you've got chords in there flayorian I'd reserve a sideboard slot for Whisperwood elemental as it's a reasonable beater, and also excellent to chord in and sac in response to a boardwipe. It's certainly on my radar.
The other would be Temur Sabertooth as it's activated ability can save two creatures, (itself, and then hopefully a witness so you can value train after the boardwipe)
I normally play White Rock but I wanted to take a break and try something fun. Trying a little more slow Green Devotion Deck for tomorrow night. Thoughts?
I'm not a huge fan of Harmonise, and I know a lot of wave decks used it in the past, but I generally want to be playing creatures at 4 mana, or doing something degenerate with more.
I think you could probably swap a primal command for a wave, and I'd highly recommend a third witness. you really want to see them
22 lands is on the heavier side, and I'm not sure I like the boseiju's in main. I've tried it, and it sucks having the nuts in hand but your only land is a non mana producer (and it happens often enough with my Ghost Quarter which I refuse to remove as it does great work!)
Inkmoth and wolf run are ok, they may fall into the 'cool stuff' category, I haven't tested them extensively, but whenever I've had enough mana to be doing that I've always been able to do something else like Elesh Norn, craterhoof, or some other delight!
With the basic count you've got I would consider Blood moon as well (or magus of the moon)
I do find though with all these lists that you need to pick and choose the advice you receive, because some advice will mesh better with the way you naturally want to play the game, whilst other advice (even though it may be sound advice) may be more difficult for you to integrate because of the way you approach and play the game.
An example I'd go to here is in Ian M Banks' "The Player of Games" there is a Character called Jernau Morat Gurgeh, a member of 'The Culture', anyway he is a gaming expert, and is selected for a particular task, which he undertakes (and that is to go to a planet and take part in their annual elections, which is actually a glorified strategy tournament, not unlike chess, but where the environmental effects can drastically change the game)
I won't spoil it for anyone (in case you haven't read it, as I'd urge you to do so because it's a great read) But the crux of it is, if you can find the way you are best placed to play the game, whether that's unfettered aggression, reactivity, looking for a particular weak spot in your opponent and flexing to it. that will inform you greatly on the style of decks you will have more success with.
at least, that's my opinion, but as I said before, we all have one, just take the opinions that will help you (not just the ones you agree with!)
I've bored you enough now, but good luck with the iterating!
I normally play White Rock but I wanted to take a break and try something fun. Trying a little more slow Green Devotion Deck for tomorrow night. Thoughts?
With the meta swing back to Jund/Junk play with less than 4 E-Wit is a bad plan. I would cut 1 hoof and the 4 finks for 2 E-Wit, 2 courser of Kruphix to smooth out draws/card advantage and an obstinate baloth.
Primal command and courser should keep your life high balith can pad it against agro and Lilly.
Might think about cutting the harmonize and adding the baloth to the board and putting in 3 visionaries for card draw
Would also move the bosejui to side board. I think Thrun would be more maindeckable then those
If you've got chords in there flayorian I'd reserve a sideboard slot for Whisperwood elemental as it's a reasonable beater, and also excellent to chord in and sac in response to a boardwipe. It's certainly on my radar.
The other would be Temur Sabertooth as it's activated ability can save two creatures, (itself, and then hopefully a witness so you can value train after the boardwipe)
These are both perfect answers to board wipes that destroy our creatures. [[Whisperwood Elemental]] I think could play a big role in both toolbox and Stompy builds (especially those playing Chord! If you draw into it, that's fine. You get a 4/4 for 5-mana that essentially drawls you a card each turn and is protection from board wipes. Green received some interesting tools in this new set that work in a slightly slower meta.
And Treva FTW...thanks so much for posting your list! I hope some of the suggestions fit your preferences/play-style.
The one suggestion that I would also reiterate is how important permanent-based car draw can be for devotion decks. The suggestions of eternal witness and courser of Kruphix will really help smooth out the deck. I never found harmonize to be as useful as I thought it would be; and prefer cards like those mentioned (as well as Elvush visionary, etc.)
If your meta is very blue-heavy; then it makes sense to have the Boseiju's main borded (and two of course gives you far more chance of drawing it when you need it. Most suggestions of removal come from those of us that play more Agressive meta's with less game one control.
There are a lot of powerful cards in your list! With just the tiniest bit of "smoothing out" you'll have a powerhouse of a deck for your local meta!
Thanks again for posting! Can't wait to hear how the deck performed!
Frank Lapore is playing Green devotion in his stream right now (tooth and nail combo variant we discussed a few weeks back with Xenagos)...it's funny to see the comments of people saying, "wow...green devotion is good' and "this is a deck" etc.
We're getting some exposure! Next stop, established!
Frank Lapore is playing Green devotion in his stream right now (tooth and nail combo variant we discussed a few weeks back with Xenagos)...it's funny to see the comments of people saying, "wow...green devotion is good' and "this is a deck" etc.
We're getting some exposure! Next stop, established!
the delver, burn meta was so hard for this deck. with loads of 1/1 dorks and the importance of building early devotion in that light speed meta it was sooo hard to get traction. am turly loving the the midrangy format we have now.
I find burn ranges from an easy to reasonable matchup ( I mean, there are lots of builds) but primal command is an absolute song and dance against them, as is any kind of life gain shenanigans (you obviously have to time it correctly through the skullcrack) I would say approximately two primal commands is enough to shut them off, and if they play an Eidolon they have basically sealed their own fate because we can play around three mana and less spells with reasonable ease.
One off hand destruction is easy to deal with, it's when you get dedicated hand destruction that the plan falls over.
I think we largely have to Punt the 8rack matchup in the sense that (and I'm putting together a meta spreadsheet to see what sideboard cards do against all our potential larger slice of the meta opponents) cards that would be great against them have too little crossover elsewhere. The only cards that legitimately spring to mind are Loxodon Smiter (as it's also uncountable and pulls duty against UWR decks and other blue decks as well as Liliana's +1) and any kind of fracturing gust effect.
Anyway, too far down the hole again, I'll get back to my analysis, and maybe come back with something at the end of the week.
Frank Lapore is playing Green devotion in his stream right now (tooth and nail combo variant we discussed a few weeks back with Xenagos)...it's funny to see the comments of people saying, "wow...green devotion is good' and "this is a deck" etc.
We're getting some exposure! Next stop, established!
the delver, burn meta was so hard for this deck. with loads of 1/1 dorks and the importance of building early devotion in that light speed meta it was sooo hard to get traction. am turly loving the the midrangy format we have now.
P.S. E-Wit laughs at thoughtsize/inquisition
Yep...the problem became not only that delver packed a ton of early removal/bounce spells; but that every other deck ran with the intent of killing creatures early (which keeps us from developing devotion). This new meta stands to greatly help many of the devotion archetypes that got "pushed out" by the Cruise/Delver/Burn meta we had over the last few months. Great point!
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I am really sad you forget about me. I was talking about Root Mazes long time ago (I tried elf agro that time), as well as a way to ge even more land hate package (Primal Command, Root Maze, Plow Under, Choke...). Sad Panda is sad.
Here I am not so sure, as I faced Bant Chord + Fauna Shaman Vengevine deck, however you might be right.
I'm curious though, to see how the meta unfolds. Locally I see a fair bit of variation in decks, in fact I never really know what I am going to face off against as it literally could be anything (There is one Stompy player who pretty much always plays Green Stompy, the rest is same people massive variety of decks).
The biggest issue for me ahead of GP Van will be trying to get a handle on my sideboard and a handful of maindeck flex spots as the meta I really expect (Twin, B/G, Scapeshift, Burn, Tron, and a few others) may give me some sideboard headaches. Especially as there won't be many meaningful results between now and then outside of MTGO dailies (which is traditionally a slightly different meta anyway)
put it this way, If we have to spend our time fighting against B/G, Burn, and Zoo we should be ok. If it's Scapeshift, Twin, Ad Nauseam, 8 Rack. then it's going to be a much harder task.
Your mileage may all vary of course, but that's my take as of this morning
And you are right Pedros...you did come up with the Root Maze idea well before I saw it on the Elf Primer. I apologize I forgot.
It will be really interesting how the meta shakes out. The banninggs definitely opened up the format quite a bit. I truly do beleive it made out decks better though. Hypaspist is exactly right though...if hand disruption and combo decks become the "thing" (and we can already be sure that Scapeshift, Twin, Affinity, and RDW are going to be top tier); we may have to ensure (a) we are running the fastest or most disruptive forms of our decks and (b) we develop new sideboards to deal with these decks. I have already started testing what I beleive the meta will look like and my sideboard definitely has to change. while Delver (and Cruise) were awful for us; having Pod (a good match up for us) being 20% of the meta was a real gift to us...we just need to keep our fingers crossed that the holes in the meta get filled with Junk, Jund, Zoo, etc. Rather than 8rack and Ad Nauseum...either way, we still can board for combo-heavy environments as well. It's just fun to see such a huge change! Now we can fill up part of the hole left in the meta!
Both those options though fall down in the devotion side of things, and I feel at one point I went too far down the rabbit hole with the tools and lacked enough green symbols so that I could disrupt and control well enough, but couldn't get my own engine online early enough.
It's a tricky puzzle for sure, but one thing I am certain of. Spells kite is staying main board for me for now.
You should definitely consider Elesh in the changed meta as well. Too good to pass up. She wrecks lots of potential matchups.
Haha! Great points here!
You are right about Elf Combo...I'll make a few adjustments to the board, etc.; but for the most part there are not any huge shifts to how it is positioned (as it is itself a "combo" deck with a devotion core.
I'm so excited to see how the meta shakes out. Hopefully good for us!
This is definitely a potential outcome which would be HUGE for us. As devotion players, we eat up these decks. They just can't keep up. I just tested my deck against a Junk deck (Liliana, Dark Confidant, Siege Rhino, Goyf, Abrupt Decay, Path, Dismember, one Sluaghter Pact, Thoughtseize, etc.)...I didn't lose a single game. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the meta moves more this way than the "twin way" (as all of the non-combo devotion decks really just deal with these style decks in the board).
I normally play White Rock but I wanted to take a break and try something fun. Trying a little more slow Green Devotion Deck for tomorrow night. Thoughts?
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Primeval Titan
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Primal Command
2 Plow Under
2 Harmonize
2 Genesis Wave
2 Stomping Ground
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 inkmoth Nexus
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
8 Forest
4 Summoning Trap
3 Seal of Primordium
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Creeping Corrosion
4 Boil
Thoughts?
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
I can tell you we're very optimistic in the 8Rack thread.
If the format is more aggro more midrange deck, come back of zoo with geist, I'm afraid we will see more Damnation and Wrath of god ... and this is not so cool
At least for the stompy deck as mine I guess I will have to trade the coursers for predator ooze
what do you think ?
The other would be Temur Sabertooth as it's activated ability can save two creatures, (itself, and then hopefully a witness so you can value train after the boardwipe)
I'd echo some of Jay's points Treva.
I'm not a huge fan of Harmonise, and I know a lot of wave decks used it in the past, but I generally want to be playing creatures at 4 mana, or doing something degenerate with more.
I think you could probably swap a primal command for a wave, and I'd highly recommend a third witness. you really want to see them
22 lands is on the heavier side, and I'm not sure I like the boseiju's in main. I've tried it, and it sucks having the nuts in hand but your only land is a non mana producer (and it happens often enough with my Ghost Quarter which I refuse to remove as it does great work!)
Inkmoth and wolf run are ok, they may fall into the 'cool stuff' category, I haven't tested them extensively, but whenever I've had enough mana to be doing that I've always been able to do something else like Elesh Norn, craterhoof, or some other delight!
With the basic count you've got I would consider Blood moon as well (or magus of the moon)
I do find though with all these lists that you need to pick and choose the advice you receive, because some advice will mesh better with the way you naturally want to play the game, whilst other advice (even though it may be sound advice) may be more difficult for you to integrate because of the way you approach and play the game.
An example I'd go to here is in Ian M Banks' "The Player of Games" there is a Character called Jernau Morat Gurgeh, a member of 'The Culture', anyway he is a gaming expert, and is selected for a particular task, which he undertakes (and that is to go to a planet and take part in their annual elections, which is actually a glorified strategy tournament, not unlike chess, but where the environmental effects can drastically change the game)
I won't spoil it for anyone (in case you haven't read it, as I'd urge you to do so because it's a great read) But the crux of it is, if you can find the way you are best placed to play the game, whether that's unfettered aggression, reactivity, looking for a particular weak spot in your opponent and flexing to it. that will inform you greatly on the style of decks you will have more success with.
at least, that's my opinion, but as I said before, we all have one, just take the opinions that will help you (not just the ones you agree with!)
I've bored you enough now, but good luck with the iterating!
But who knowns maybe with time.
I guess I will just see how the local meta evolve and adjust then
With the meta swing back to Jund/Junk play with less than 4 E-Wit is a bad plan. I would cut 1 hoof and the 4 finks for 2 E-Wit, 2 courser of Kruphix to smooth out draws/card advantage and an obstinate baloth.
Primal command and courser should keep your life high balith can pad it against agro and Lilly.
Might think about cutting the harmonize and adding the baloth to the board and putting in 3 visionaries for card draw
Would also move the bosejui to side board. I think Thrun would be more maindeckable then those
These are both perfect answers to board wipes that destroy our creatures. [[Whisperwood Elemental]] I think could play a big role in both toolbox and Stompy builds (especially those playing Chord! If you draw into it, that's fine. You get a 4/4 for 5-mana that essentially drawls you a card each turn and is protection from board wipes. Green received some interesting tools in this new set that work in a slightly slower meta.
The one suggestion that I would also reiterate is how important permanent-based car draw can be for devotion decks. The suggestions of eternal witness and courser of Kruphix will really help smooth out the deck. I never found harmonize to be as useful as I thought it would be; and prefer cards like those mentioned (as well as Elvush visionary, etc.)
If your meta is very blue-heavy; then it makes sense to have the Boseiju's main borded (and two of course gives you far more chance of drawing it when you need it. Most suggestions of removal come from those of us that play more Agressive meta's with less game one control.
There are a lot of powerful cards in your list! With just the tiniest bit of "smoothing out" you'll have a powerhouse of a deck for your local meta!
Thanks again for posting! Can't wait to hear how the deck performed!
We're getting some exposure! Next stop, established!
the delver, burn meta was so hard for this deck. with loads of 1/1 dorks and the importance of building early devotion in that light speed meta it was sooo hard to get traction. am turly loving the the midrangy format we have now.
P.S. E-Wit laughs at thoughtsize/inquisition
I find burn ranges from an easy to reasonable matchup ( I mean, there are lots of builds) but primal command is an absolute song and dance against them, as is any kind of life gain shenanigans (you obviously have to time it correctly through the skullcrack) I would say approximately two primal commands is enough to shut them off, and if they play an Eidolon they have basically sealed their own fate because we can play around three mana and less spells with reasonable ease.
One off hand destruction is easy to deal with, it's when you get dedicated hand destruction that the plan falls over.
I think we largely have to Punt the 8rack matchup in the sense that (and I'm putting together a meta spreadsheet to see what sideboard cards do against all our potential larger slice of the meta opponents) cards that would be great against them have too little crossover elsewhere. The only cards that legitimately spring to mind are Loxodon Smiter (as it's also uncountable and pulls duty against UWR decks and other blue decks as well as Liliana's +1) and any kind of fracturing gust effect.
Anyway, too far down the hole again, I'll get back to my analysis, and maybe come back with something at the end of the week.
Yep...the problem became not only that delver packed a ton of early removal/bounce spells; but that every other deck ran with the intent of killing creatures early (which keeps us from developing devotion). This new meta stands to greatly help many of the devotion archetypes that got "pushed out" by the Cruise/Delver/Burn meta we had over the last few months. Great point!