MTG Salvation

@Grrvvpp23 Sweet! Congrats on the result! Building the deck online is not really expensive compared to most modern decks, so you should be fine. The only expensive cards are Explosives and Cavern (if you plan on running it.) The deck only gets better the more you play it, which is why whoever is a fan only gets more and more hooked as time goes by. I was never a fan of Dromoka, since when I tested it in the matchups where I wanted it, it just got pathed and that was it... I imagine it could be kinda great against non white control decks (UR Twin/Breach, Mono U Tron,) but considering that Ruric is also great against the white control decks PLUS they are completely insane vs Lantern and Storm I'd 100% run it instead. Also, if you're running Hive Mind maybe it is worth it to run Slaughter Pact, at least as a 1 of. Good luck and Titan it up!

@Jacetotheface I think GQ is just better in the greater majority of matchups, but this result will heavily encourage me to keep that Tec Edge I've been running there since a couple of months ago.

I'm just trying to think of matches where GQ is better, especially if we aren't playing Ramunap Excavator main. Affinity doesn't usually turn to the infect plan unless they are flooding, in which case tec edge is still serviceable. Valakut is very likely going to go off the turn after we Titan so Tec edge is the perfect card here. Tron Will have 3 lands before we Titan (lotus blooms version) so a random GQ isn't doing much. The corner cases of taking an Abzan opponent off path or DS off blue also favor Tec edge.

I find it actually interesting, a interactive way to replace a lotus bloom with another from the deck.

At the end is the best use and you dont lose tempo.

I would use it as a sideboard strategy against artifact removal. And also has plenty of uses as you can cast a grafdigger cage answering a collective company or against dredge, etc.

Has anyone tried pentad prism instead of bloom. Can sometimes be difficult to cast, I will admit, especially with all the taplands, but it doesn't have to be found and played on turn 1 like bloom to be effective. It also interacts a bit more favorably than bloom with an amulet (obviously if you have an amulet, you're in good shape) but you can end up with amulet into pentad into turn 3 titan draws, which an amulet/bloom hand can't give you.

2 quick questions:

1. Does anybody know if while Vesuva/Blood Moon is bugged on mtgo it is considered cheating to use Vesuva with its current functionality?

2. Is it immoral to use Vesuva under Blood Moon with it's current functionality on mtgo (should you just always opt to copy nothing to mimic the paper functionality)?

To clarify: Vesuva should enter as a copy of nothing, but can copy things under blood moon and retain being a copy after blood moon is destroyed. In addition, Vesuva can copy a basic land and enter untapped as a copy of that basic land. I have talked to judges and they agree this is a bug.

@greedemorris it's a tricky predicament. On one hand, it's Wizards' fault the bug exists, so why is it our job to step around it? On the other, you wouldn't ever intentionally do this to an opponent in paper, as that would be cheating. I have no idea if utilizing bugs in this way is punishable or not, but I just play around the way things are programmed online.

Quote from Grrvvpp23 »

Have you guys tried Quicksilver Fountain out of the sideboard? I’m tempted to give it a slot this weekend since on paper seems like it could be good especially against Tron/Non blue matchups and the fact that we can bounce lands to get rid of flood counters could buy us a lot of time to start jamming Primetimes, but I’m afraid to hose myself more than the opponent lol

Sounds like something that would be better in the lotus bloom version.

@geedemorris I've been trying your list, and I've been impressed. I like the full combo deck approach, although I did get got by Slaughter Games vs Bright To Light Scapeshift (and I didn't side in the Hive Minds, cause they can easily pay for any of our pacts, and even have ramp.) The only inclusion I really don't get is why Tormod's Crypt over Bojuka Bog? In at least 4 occasions in 10 matches (vs Dredge, mono U Living End, 5c Shadow and Grixis Shadow) having Bog in my deck would have made a Titan coming into play simply seal the game. Instead, I had Crypt, which I never saw, and in 2 of those situations actually cost me the game. Are you running crypt specifically because of the Storm matchup, because by not running Tribe Scout the inability to Bog at instant speed is just too costly? Is it even really worth it, since the current anti-hate card storm players are running is Wipe Away, which has split second?
Btw, saw you 5-0d again, congrats dude! You're killing it!

I have seen some lists only run two Azusas and a second Tireless Tracker instead. Does this change have any merit?

I don't think bojuka bog and tormod's crypt are honestly competing for the same slot. Decks that get stopped by a repeatable sorcery speed exile and decks that get stopped by a single instant speed exile don't really overlap a lot except maybe dredge. I wouldn't ever run a 75 without crypt because there are too many matchups where it is just essential, storm, grishoalbrand, living end, etc.

Ancient stirrings turn 1 is much more critical because having lotus bloom turn 1 is miles better than lotus bloom turn 2. I strongly recommend not messing with the maindeck mana base and finding room in the sideboard for bojuka bog or cavern of souls if you want them.

I have been running -1 Aether Hub +1 Cavern already, so I did change it, since Cavern seems like a necessity, honestly. Way too many times it's THE land you transmute for vs Control decks, and it's the difference between starting the Titan chain or simply getting your Titan countered and die without drawing a threat in a million turns. Maybe I can also cut Temple of Mystery, since there were like 2 times were I naturally drew it and started bouncing it and accruing scry value, but with the amount of shuffling we do, I'm not a big fan of the Temple.

@Grrvvpp23 There are 2 bugs now, one bad and one good for us: bad one is that when you have 2 Amulets in play, the untap triggers auto-stack. What this means is that maybe your Stronghold will untap BEFORE your Garrison, in which case you won't be able to activate the ability twice. The way to work around it is to choose the way in which the triggers go by selecting the Boros Garrison trigger LAST. This allows you to choose the order in which the Amulet triggers go on the stack. The problem is that sometimes this forces you to make suboptimal plays and bounce lands that you wouldn't really want to. The good bug is that Vesuva still works as Vesuva under Blood Moon, allowing you to copy a basic in play. The latest rules change makes it so Vesuva should come into play as nothing.
Also, there's an interaction that did change as well with the latest rule changes, and that is with Spreading Seas. I haven't had this come up yet, but I'd bet that it's bugged still in MODO. Apparently now if they Seas your land, when you try to Vesuva that land, you're actually copying the Island. This didn't use to be like this before, but it's the world we live in now (and it sucks.) I'm also really eager to see how this interaction works once you also add blood moon to the mix

Quote from daviusminimus »

@ fpawlusz - i've not exactly taken stock of Temple of Mystery, but I've spent some time going "did i scry to top or bottom". If you scry to the top, it actually did nothing, right? Well, I found that OVER 50% of the time it did nothing. I then tried to remember how many times I won the game by a single turn when it turned up. That's quite hard to take account of without actually writing stuff down, but the point I was trying to make to myself was "did it actually make a difference". I would estimate (and it is an estimate) that it's under 20% relevant. However, that 20% might be better than botanical sanctum as an example. But, my gut instinct is that it FEELS great but in practice its MASSIVELY overrated. I honestly believe that it could be 1 of the biggest trap cards we could ever play. Every time I play it I go "oooo a free scry" and think its awesome. But every time I evaluate what it actually did, I go "well that was a tapped land for no reason". When I start grabbing it off titans and bouncing it, it actually becomes less impressive, because titans usually fetch shuffle effects and I'm usually already ahead etc...

TL:DR - I don't know for sure, but I believe Temple might be a trap card. Having said that, a 10-15% card might be better than a Bojuka Bog. I don't know!

I disagree that if you scry to the top, Temple of Mystery did nothing. The knowledge of what's on top of my library allows me to plan my upcoming plays and sequence things correctly - even if I'm not changing the top card of my library, the extra knowledge gives me a few more percentage points, at least in my opinion.

So I haven't posted here before but I picked up the deck a little over a month ago. I don't claim to be an expert at all but have been playing it locally to strong results (something like 11-4 over the past month). I'd been playing the "normal" version without Lotus Bloom, but I saw these new lists being discussed and figured I'd give it a try. Went 4-0 with this list tonight at FNM:



I beat UW Control feat. Mentor (2-0), UWR Tempo (2-1), 8Whack (2-0), and Jeskai Tempo (2-0). I did get good matchups but still the Lotus Blooms felt fine but not exactly thrilling. I'll probably run it at least another week to test it a little more but the two versions felt just about the same to me. I do question why certain cards, particularly Cavern of Souls and Explore, aren't present in most Lotus Bloom lists.

@d8dk32 in response to both your questions: I think you vastly underestimate how good scrying is in this deck.

I'm liking 2 Explore 2 Serum right now. Went 9-1 in matches this week. Only dropped like 4 or 5 games total. Mirrorpool was instrumental in 4 of the wins, making double Titan + EE against Devoted Druid, and several double amulet kills. In another game I triple Titan'd where it would otherwise be impossible. Maindeck Baloth was relevant against Lili 2 times, and Burn 2 times. Won one game randomly against burn with Hornet Queen/Kessig beats and hosed Death's Shadow and Affinity several times. Not having a second Crumbling Vestige lost me one game, but may have won several others, not sure, probably going back to 2 (Azusa out, no amulet, Slayers in hand with one land drop left and I couldn't haste the Titan for lethal). 2 Temple of Mystery have felt perfect as well. I still have no idea what Aether Hub possibly helps with.

Quote from geedemorris »

@d8dk32 in response to both your questions: I think you vastly underestimate how good scrying is in this deck.

A bit of elaboration would be appreciated. I assume you're referencing Temple of Mystery, and in the list I posted an Aether Hub could easily be swapped for a Temple without having to remove Cavern or Explore so I'm not sure how it's relevant. If you think the commonly played single serum visions is required, it easily could replace slaughter pact and you'd still be able to play cavern and explore. Plus I've never really had consistency problems with any build of the deck so I haven't felt like I needed more scry effects. For me the best thing about the new lists is the maindeck Hornet Queen, which could just as easily be played in the "normal" list.

If you like bojuka bog, cavern of souls, or explore play those cards. I’m not going to tell you none of them have value. I’m going to continue playing aether hub, temple, and serum visions because the thing I care about doing more than anything else is playing a titan by turn 4, and scrying to find the missing titan and playing turn 1 ancient stirrings for lotus bloom or turn 3 transmute up that consistency.

If I was going to cut an aether hub for a land, cavern would actually be 4th on my list after 2nd temple, 3rd basic, bojkuka bog as lands I would like to run.

What are the situations where Aether Hub is a lot better than Crumbling Vestige?

@jacetotheface, when you pay for a pact. Also, when you want colored mana other than the turn it entered. Also paying for instants like swan song and kozilek’s return.