I also thought that would be good to have Tormod's Crypt in order to transmute into it, pushing to storm to deal with it. Although I wouldn't remove Ruric since is one of my key cards against burn. The addition of kessing wolf trap is nuts against them since they can't just chump block him and be fine =).
Jeez, that list sure looks eclectic, haha. I haven't been able to do much testing this week, but I did make the changes I talked about in the last post. Glad to hear the Tec Edge Tech (lol) is working out! I'm looking forward to getting paired against Scapeshift in a league this week.
@Izzetus The deck is quite good when played competently, and ONLY good when played competently. That's why even while Summer Bloom was still legal, it took literally years before people actually started having some results with the deck. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to lose a bunch. And it's not like Burn, where you have a straightforward plan (and there's obviously a difference between good and bad burn players, but even bad burn players can have a reasonable win percentage.) You need to constantly think one or 2 turns in advance, you need to know what to play around at all times and how, and you always need to know what sequence of lands will get you out of tight spots. All of this while doing plenty of mana math. You even need to know rule interactions within the deck (for example, you can't copy with Vesuva a land that is coming in to play at the same time as Vesuva. This further complicates sequencing and your options.) Still, this is hands down the single most rewarding deck to play in Modern. The amount of free wins is pretty minimal, but I've managed to win many games which at some point felt unwinnable because I managed to find a sequence that gave me 1 extra turn to topdeck what I needed, and every time it feels amazing. So if you're looking for a challenge, I couldn't recommend this deck enough. If you're looking for easy wins, look elsewhere.
I'm getting confidant with de deck, making better mulli decisions and risking more or playing it at better tempo. Biggest improvements at my game is trying to delay the use of pacts to the turn I can keep the pressure on every turn.
About the list I played, It feels like an improvement having more explores and Kessig Wolf Trap and Ghost Quarter on main board.
Kessig and plant token, gives you the opportunity to win on the next turn you landed your titan, It follows the Idea I said before to keep the pressure up.
I really don't liked the tireless tracker on main, it is going to be replaced by 4th Explore.
Regarding the sideboard, I like 2 tireless tracker on the 75 and also 3 swans and 3 dismember, Don't know what to take away T_T!! advices are welcome!
I feel like the sideboard is (and should be) 100% customizable. You shouldn't just copy a list and run with it (unless the list you're copying is meant and tuned for a similar metagame than the one you're going to play in.) If you're just playing at your LGS, you should definitely move things around. If you're playing online, 3 Swan Songs seems like a lot, for example, and I'd like to see something against Scapeshift. But maybe your LGS has a lot of storm or Control, in which case you do want more counters (although I personally prefer the 2nd Cavern, with which I've been very happy with lately.) You should have a couple of cards that you move around and bring in and out depending on what you expect to face.
In the online meta, having 1 maindeck Tracker seems really, really good, and I don't think I'd change it for now.
Yesterday I was thinking exactly about the whole Kessig deal, after I played against Burn and Ad Nauseam, and against both I had exactly lethal twice because I was running Sunhome and not Kessig. I guess that this further illustrates the point I made earlier, and might be yet Kessig/Sunhome another metagame call... Kessig seems much better against control and midrange, while Sunhome seems better against matchups where you're racing (especially against decks where you could easily be dead the following turn even after a resolved Titan.)
@fpawlusz. I get what you are saying.
When I fist pick the deck. I really copy some list and figure how to play. Which hands are better than others. Understand the sideboard games. Also did a lot of testing on cards like ranumap even academy ruins.
The idea I got When I assemble the deck and at the first tournaments. Was that this is a ramp midrange deck. But when I started to have a better feeling of the mechanics of deck, I realized on how important is to try to on game 1 being hyper aggressive and go for combo. During the game having options to avoid paying for summoners pact upkeep and or having stabilization options are also key to seal first games.
Regarding having 29 lands including kessing and ghost quarter main are possibilities. Many decks are waiting after you land a titan with a path to exile and most of the times you dont have ways to protect it. Plant/ Sakura/ Azusa becomes threaths when you attack with your titan and get wreck.
I also like the idea of second cavern but I dont have a 2nd one for the side :P.
The sideboard Of course is a customozation for local meta. There is a lot of bloodmoon decks. But 2 swans are very helpful when dealing with control decks enabling you to at least draw 1 and have a shield when you are doublestriking with your titan. Even avoid an Deflecting Palm.
In both cases I stated before, yes, it had to be Sunhome. This is because I was literally at 1 and Fountain would have still put me at 3 life and dead to bolt (my opponent had 2 cards in hand + draw step, so I assumed they had 1 damage burn spell) and I was 1 mana short of transmuting because of the forever annoying fact that you fetch for Simic+T West but can't transmute on Combat step (I had no access to untapped blue mana.) Also, If they had 2 burn spells I was dead even after Pacting their first one. Against Ad Nauseam it's hard to tell, since they play their own blue pacts as well, so Blue Pact is not necessarily game over against them. A thing that did come up yesterday against Death's Shadow was that they played a shadow as a 7/7, they blocked my Titan (cause otherwise they were just dead) and I made them gain 1 life and gave double strike to my Titan. This matchup is, again, one where I believe Sunhome to be much better than Kessig, since in this case, Kessig would have forced me to trade with their Shadow, and basically deal no damage to them (since all the trample damage I would have been able to do would have not been lethal. I would have been forced to do all the damage to Shadow in order to not grow it with the trample damage.) Because I had Sunhome, I was able to kill their shadow, keep my titan, and then deal them an extra 6 to put them at 1, dead to the uncounterable Ballista I was transmuting for the following turn. I'm still a believer in Sunhome, though now I am keeping track of "what if this were Kessig instead."
@talgardo : In my experience, the true strength of the deck is not in protecting your Titan, but the fact that once you resolve your first Titan, it goes and gets it's friends as well. And most decks are not usually able to handle the stream of Titans (unless they have Chalice on 0 or something like this.) I do like to bring in Swan Songs as a disruptive tool, not a protection tool (though, of course, I will use it to protect my titan if need be.) I guess there are different approaches to the deck, and the way I see it is as a midrange deck with the possibility of a combo. In a lot of scenarios, the combo isn't even a kill, but simply puts you far ahead enough that your opponents can't come back. I have even lost games AFTER I have combo'ed! So the deck is customizable even to it's approach! Man, this deck is just too great
Just wanted to share what is probably one of my favorite kills with the deck, and yet another reason why I love this deck so much:
My opponent is playing with a very weird Green E Tron deck, and they resolve Ulamog. They attack once when I have 1 Titan already in play, as well of some dudes. I have only 39 cards on his attack, so I'm not dead because I can chump block, but I will deck after they attack for the second time. Ulamog trigger resolves and I go into my turn. I have bounceland and Gemnstone mine in hand. I have to attack with Titan, but I can't kill him, since he's at 20 and I can only attack for 12 with double strike Titan and 2 Scouts (of notice, I believe Kessig hits them for 19.) I'm going to die in my next draw step, so I can't fetch for Titan. I find the line. I have to attack with everything, bring my opponent down to 6, searching for T West and bounceland. Second main I transmute for Ballista, and play it for 4, leaving a bounceland in my hand. My opponent attacks in their turn, exiling the rest of my library, and I chump with a plant token. On my upkeep, I activate Ballista, and kill my opponent before drawing a cards from my cardless library. I'm attaching a screenshot, cause I thought it was too awesome not to share.
Nice win fpawlusz. I heard that Amulet Titan is bugged on Magic online though? I heard you can't choose the order of the triggers and if you have multiple amulets it also doesn't tell you which amulet is untapping which land causing you to miss being able to tap the lands in between untaps for extra floating mana.
Is any of that true or has it been bugfixed or can you otherwise comment on this?
Burn is a difficult matchup. Usually looking for a quick ramp hand on first game with an amulet get you the job done. Slmetkmes is not enough if they draw a too powerfull hand. They can finish us on turn 3 at best (for them).
I found in sideboarded games that they slow up a bit with paths, palm and DR. It is weird to take advantage to that, but possible. Still my best sided games against burn still resolve well for me when drawing Azusa-Ruric-Thragtusk and or Radiant fountain.
I dont find Balloth to be necessary for the matchup, I feel favored in a 60% (not statistically) against burn. Also Double Amulet with a counter to back up beat them any day
@daviusminimus : At this point, I consider Tracker and Dismember the flex slots. Ballista has earned a spot in my Maindeck 100%, just like the Explosives. Even post board, I only board it out in a couple of matchups (Storm with no fetches - aka with no Moons - and Ad Nauseam, and Burn if they're running the now not so popular Shrine version -since being able to kill Eidolon without taking damage is a big deal.) Ballista has been my only out in just too many games to not want it, and since it's just a 1 of it's not a big deal if you naturally draw it.
In my experience, the Burn matchup is very positive. The thing about burn is that they're super consistent, and sometimes they just have the nuts and just beat you... But that's also the case with us, and I think that overall it's more likely for us to have the nuts than them. Also, sometimes the nuts for us simply include turn 1 Fountain, turn 2 explore fountain bounceland, turn 3 azusa, fountain, bounceland, gg. The matchup is definitely worse than it used to be, because now their Searing Blazes are actively good instead of a dead draw. Still, I find that turn 3/4 Titan is usually enough. Post board it does much better because they usually dilute their deck with Revelries/Shattering Sprees and Paths. When I board though I bring in the sweepers (this is definitely a matchup where Pyroclasm is better than K Return or Firespout,) and I really like Rec Sage, since it kills their Eidolon on ETB, and it trades with their Guides/eats a burn spell. The matchup depends a lot on whether they draw Eidolon or not. I feel like when I lose is because I took 6+ damage off it. I think I have yet to lose to the Shrine of Burning Rage version.
@anosmian I'm very interested in testing Root Maze. I haven't yet, but the idea behind it is quite solid. The only thing that kinda troubles me is the big ol' Leyline or Aether Vial effect of drawing it on turn 3/4 or simply drawing multiple copies. Maybe the effect is strong enough to be worth the risk. Mirrorpool seems honestly REALLY bad, and I feel like the lands you're taking out are simply stronger than that. I did try Cobra and wasn't impressed by it at all... STS and Azusa do the ramping job much better. Maybe if you're running Wolf Run instead of Sunhome it might be worth it, though. Or if you're running multiple Trackers MD, so you can crack those clues right away even with no Amulet in play. Maybe that would make it worth it, but I have my doubts...
just a random thought
dismember feels very favorable in maindeck now. it's good against storm, eldrazi tron, GDS, and 5C human which is getting popular.
wat do u guys think?
Yeah, Dismember seems to be a 1 or 2 of at most in the Maindeck, I'm pretty convinced about that. Currently I'm running just 1 Dismember, and on the spot where I could be running the 2nd one I have a Maindeck Tracker, which I've already praised enough in this forum (to clarify: it's amazing.) I talked a bit about it a couple of posts ago, and the deck should be always moved around and tuned to beat what you expect to face. For the online meta I like what I have currently going on, but in my LGS meta I run 1 Dismember and 1 Relic instead of the 4th Azusa, cause there's A LOT of Death's Shadow, I'd rather hedge a little bit. I'm not a biggest fan of slaughter pact currently, since it doesn't kill some of the stuff you REALLY wanna kill (Tasigur, Angler, Shadow) and it stretches your manabase a bit too much (making it unreliable to be consistently cast even on turn 3.) What this means is that you also can't kill Electromancers/Barals, Devoted Druids, Steel Overseers, etc. on T2. That right there is enough for me to not consider it at all. I know about the fact that you can tutor for it, but it's just not good enough for when you truly need it. As tutorable targets, I've been really happy with Ballista and Explosives.
After some more testing, I agree. Tec Edge is here to stay in my board. It might just be the best weapon we have vs. Valakut. I did consider Crumble to Dust, but Tec Edge is simply better. It's an untapped land drop, tutorable with Titan and T west, it doesn't give them a basic, you can copy it with Vesuva, etc. One time it was very awkward against E Tron, though... They just had natural tron and I was forced to play my tec edge as a land drop, so they just didn't play another land and were able to deploy all their threats and I died. Still, it felt like the missing piece in the RG Scapeshift matchup. Another thing I changed is that I used to not bring in Swan Songs in that matchup, but since Mwonvuli Acid Moss is now pretty much a staple in their sideboards I do bring in both Songs mostly against that.
@davius thanks for posting your list! im currently playing a competitive league with ur exact list right now, and i've got to say kessig is awesome. helped me pushed sooo much dmg from the critters (from STC to plant token). went 4-0 and 4-1, losing to GDS. gonna test one more league next time with this list.
I was there when Kanister said that, and I understand it, but I don't agree. There's too many times where Ballista is your only out, and even sometimes you randomly draw it and I have killed a Dark Confidant or a Thalia on turn 2. It's the same thing as naturally drawing the Explosives, the upside of having it in your deck and be able to tutor it is WAY higher than the downside of naturally drawing it in the wrong matchup.
The sideboard tips up there are just gold, and I agree with all of them. One thing I'll point out is that against BGx and UW I like having more scouts than Azusas post board. This is because Scout allows you to play around Fulminator/Ghost Quarter/Spreading Seas and Azusa doesn't (because you can instant speed flash in a bounce land and return the land they're targeting to your hand.) Usually all removal you're trying to play around kills both Scout or Azusa (I guess Push needs to be revolted...) so I prefer to have Scout.
In terms of going to time, it's just a thing that might happen. I have played the deck for around 3 years, and still every so often I lose to the clock. The lines are sometimes very unconventional, and you just need to get familiar with them, and kinda know quickly what your outs are for whatever the situation is. Thinking in your opponent's turn is very very helpful, and planning 2 or 3 turns ahead is key to the deck, mostly in terms of sequencing. You just have to come to terms with the fact that at first you will make mistakes, and the more you play the least mistakes you'll make... but you'll still make them. So is the nature of this deck, which might easily be the hardest, most complicated and awesome viable deck in Modern.
League 3 5-0
Humans: WW (2-0)
Burn: WW (2-0)
Grixis Young Pyromancer: WW (2-0)
Burn (WW (2-0)
Affinity: LWW (2-1)
here are some of my thoughts after testing:
- Kessig Wolf Run: i think it's here to stay. i have won a significant no. of games that im convinced it's better than Sunhome. Although there are 1-2 games where i have double amulet in play but i cant kill an opponent straight away become i cant giv my titan double strike, it's fine since at this point we should be way ahead.
- Simian Spirit Guide: im not very sure abt this card. i only recall using it's ability once, and i find myself SB it out often, largely due to my uncertainty on what exact role it plays. maybe someone can advise me on which matchup SSG should stay/go.
- flew slot(tracker, ballista): i feel tracker is good enough that it earns the slot in maindeck. there was a game against 5C Humans where i play 2 tracker and essentially beat him to death with my huge trackers (+ kessig wolf run). however, im not sure if im comfortable not playing any ballista in main/SB. it felt as if i was missing that option of flexibility, although i dont think i hav lost a game for not having ballista yet.
- Tectonic Edge: unfortunately, this is the only card i haven't got the chance to test with. on paper it seems slow, since you can only activate it on the 4th land, and by then the tron opponent would have alrdy cast their payoff spell.
- Obstinate Baloth: i think i like this card. i once manage to pact into Baloth when my opponent plus their LilianaotV, and in another game it bought me some time against a burn opponent.
so far i haven't got a chance to play against those bad matchups (storm, ad nauseum etc), so i cant tell whether this is the list to go moving forward, but im liking it for now.
i might want to try another league or 2 with this list, just to get more results with some of the cards.
Just saw your 5-0 list posted, @peekachun, nice! I noticed you were running only 3 Azusas, and was wondering what your thoughts were on that.
I will go ahead and try to run a couple of leagues with Kessig, since you guys are so high on it. I'll have to familiarize myself better with the Kessig math and stuff...
About the times where ballista is the only out, besides the situation that I posted earlier, some other situations have come up where Ballista was my only out were:
-vs Affinity, I had already used a Ghost Quarter to kill an Inky, and my opponent drew a second one and was threatening lethal with a cranial playing. Transmuted for Ballista and cast it on 1 for 5 mana, bought me several turns and I started pumping ballista to eventually win the game.
-vs the new 5c Humans deck: Opponent had 2 Meddling mages, one on Prime Time, one on EE. I transmuted for Ballista, killed the Prime Time one, cast titan, proceed to win the game.
-vs Burn: I'm locked out of the game because of Eidolon: I transmute for Ballista, cast it on 4, kill Eidolon, which unlocks the Summoner's pact in my hand, I pact for Titan, do amulet things and win.
-vs Lantern: Bridge in play, opp on no cards and at x amount of life, transmute for Ballista, deal x to their face over 2-3 turns unless they manage to draw an answer.
-vs Kiki chord/Blood Moon deck: They Chord for Magus of the Moon. I draw my 1 of Ballista, play it for 2, kill their Magus and win. Then I lost the match anyway cause, well, they're jamming 4 Blood Moons...
Those are just a couple of examples off the top of my head that I remember, and then there are simply times where I randomly draw it and on turn 2 it kills my opponent's Dark Confidant/Steel Overseer that they played on turn 2. The positives far outweigh the negatives in my experience, and I'm 100% a believer that, just like Tracker, it deserves a spot in the main. Also, I'm not convinced that Kessig by itself is better than Ballista vs Control, since Kessig has to sit in play in order to be activated, where it can be GQd, tec edged, Spreading seas'd, whereas for Ballista we can just sandbag a Cavern and then drop it and play Ballista on the same turn.
@fpawlusz my list was actually the exact same as @davius found on post #3715. have to giv credit when due!
On 3 azusa, I feel it make sense mathematically since this list already plays 4 Explore and 1 Simian Spirit Spirit Guide as other ramp outlet. This list also runs 2 Tireless Tracker, so you are not running out of 3s to play. That being said, I think I would take out 1 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Tireless Tracker for something like 1 Walking Ballista and 1 something else. I agree after testing those leagues Walking Ballista is certainly 1-of in the main. Having the option to kill off a problematic creature, or just to kill off the opponent is strong enough.
On Kessig Wolf Run, I highly recommend it. If you are in for the Walking Ballista kill, Kessig Wolf Run is essentially the same thing, but works on any of your creatures (works best on plant token).
Yesterday I joined a MTGO Modern Challenge with this list, however I did badly and went 3-4. Here's the breakdown: Round 1: Eldrazi Tron (with Green) - 2-0 Round 2: Valakut - 2-0 Round 3: Bant Company - 1-2 Round 4: Jeskai Tempo - 1-2 Round 5: Abzan Company - 0-2 Round 6: UR Storm - 2-0 (totally unexpected, game2 he has 2 Blood Moon in play, but I was lucky and cast Ruric Thar and win the game) Round 7: UW Grand Architect - 0-2
There are some games where I think I drew badly, but overall without Walking Ballista the matchup against Company deck is significantly worse.
Going forward I will probably try to come up with a list that's build upon davius' list. Some cards I am still not certain are the Simian Spirit Guide, 3rd Forest in main and 1 Tectonic Edge in side.
So, I play knightfall (and similar decks) in addition to amulet titan and i think knight of the reliquary, being a card that synergizes well with land strategies, might fit in the deck if a part of the mana base, namely the botanical sanctum/gemstone mine/ghost quarter slots, were swapped with fetches and shocks. knight fetches up our utility lands and tolaria west; it also has the potential to "ramp" one mana to get to titan. this would also make the sideboard more accessible in terms of casting the cards dependably. i know some of you have been testing kessig wolf run lately, and this would fit well if a couple of retreat to coralhelm were included. the bounceland package for this deck would probably include more selesnya sanctuary than gruul turf and maybe noble hierarch and some more 3 drops would be necessary. i am just brainstorming/bouncing around ideas here, but if anyone thinks it might be worth messing with let me know
@sgobba The reason why the Hive Mind kill was great was because you could reliably do it on turn 2/3 with Summer Bloom, which meant resolving a 6 mana sorcery speed threat was easier (since you could get under countermagic, land destruction and other interaction your opponents could have.) Nowadays, making it to 6 mana is not as easy, and when you do it you want to affect the board in a meaningful way. Hive Mind is a really bad topdeck, and it does literally nothing by itself. The idea behind current lists is to make the Prime Time plan A as consistent as possible, and using 2/3 slots for Hive Mind + more pacts is a real cost, in my opinion. Still, the idea is not crazy. I wonder if that's the route you want to take if it'd be better to try and brew a Hive Mind deck instead of a Primeval Titan shell. I am interested in your reasoning for playing Skyshroud Ranger instead of more Azusas, I'd be interested in hearing what your thoughts are about that.
@ginko6 As I was pointing out above, trying to make too many things is not free for this deck anymore. Some people have tried the idea that you're talking as soon as Summer Bloom was banned (also playing around with the fact that Amulet+Sakura Tribe Scout/Skyshroud Ranger+Retreat+Bounceland is infinite mana). Eventually, people realized that the deck was diluting a bit too much it's game plan and wasn't yielding as good results as the current standard builds. Also, building the manabase would be a nightmare, since mixing fetches/shocklands AND Bouncelands AND also having some utility lands would be really rough. Still, I'd encourage you to try and brew with whatever cards you like, since the deck is so much fun for a reason. People have tried adding Through The Breach, Hive Mind, Knight/Coralhelm and more cards within this shell, with varied results. There's no reason for you to stop experimenting, you might figure out a right build and actually break it!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
@Izzetus The deck is quite good when played competently, and ONLY good when played competently. That's why even while Summer Bloom was still legal, it took literally years before people actually started having some results with the deck. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to lose a bunch. And it's not like Burn, where you have a straightforward plan (and there's obviously a difference between good and bad burn players, but even bad burn players can have a reasonable win percentage.) You need to constantly think one or 2 turns in advance, you need to know what to play around at all times and how, and you always need to know what sequence of lands will get you out of tight spots. All of this while doing plenty of mana math. You even need to know rule interactions within the deck (for example, you can't copy with Vesuva a land that is coming in to play at the same time as Vesuva. This further complicates sequencing and your options.) Still, this is hands down the single most rewarding deck to play in Modern. The amount of free wins is pretty minimal, but I've managed to win many games which at some point felt unwinnable because I managed to find a sequence that gave me 1 extra turn to topdeck what I needed, and every time it feels amazing. So if you're looking for a challenge, I couldn't recommend this deck enough. If you're looking for easy wins, look elsewhere.
I'm getting confidant with de deck, making better mulli decisions and risking more or playing it at better tempo. Biggest improvements at my game is trying to delay the use of pacts to the turn I can keep the pressure on every turn.
About the list I played, It feels like an improvement having more explores and Kessig Wolf Trap and Ghost Quarter on main board.
Kessig and plant token, gives you the opportunity to win on the next turn you landed your titan, It follows the Idea I said before to keep the pressure up.
I really don't liked the tireless tracker on main, it is going to be replaced by 4th Explore.
Regarding the sideboard, I like 2 tireless tracker on the 75 and also 3 swans and 3 dismember, Don't know what to take away T_T!! advices are welcome!
4 Primeval Titan
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Walking Ballista
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Explore
1 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Amulet of Vigor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boros Garrison
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Gruul Turf
1 Khalni Garden
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Forest
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
3 Tolaria West
1 Vesuva
3 Swan Song
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Firespout
1 Pyroclasm
3 Dismember
1 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Relic of Progenitus
I'm really sorry about my english... trying my best.
In the online meta, having 1 maindeck Tracker seems really, really good, and I don't think I'd change it for now.
Yesterday I was thinking exactly about the whole Kessig deal, after I played against Burn and Ad Nauseam, and against both I had exactly lethal twice because I was running Sunhome and not Kessig. I guess that this further illustrates the point I made earlier, and might be yet Kessig/Sunhome another metagame call... Kessig seems much better against control and midrange, while Sunhome seems better against matchups where you're racing (especially against decks where you could easily be dead the following turn even after a resolved Titan.)
When I fist pick the deck. I really copy some list and figure how to play. Which hands are better than others. Understand the sideboard games. Also did a lot of testing on cards like ranumap even academy ruins.
The idea I got When I assemble the deck and at the first tournaments. Was that this is a ramp midrange deck. But when I started to have a better feeling of the mechanics of deck, I realized on how important is to try to on game 1 being hyper aggressive and go for combo. During the game having options to avoid paying for summoners pact upkeep and or having stabilization options are also key to seal first games.
Regarding having 29 lands including kessing and ghost quarter main are possibilities. Many decks are waiting after you land a titan with a path to exile and most of the times you dont have ways to protect it. Plant/ Sakura/ Azusa becomes threaths when you attack with your titan and get wreck.
I also like the idea of second cavern but I dont have a 2nd one for the side :P.
The sideboard Of course is a customozation for local meta. There is a lot of bloodmoon decks. But 2 swans are very helpful when dealing with control decks enabling you to at least draw 1 and have a shield when you are doublestriking with your titan. Even avoid an Deflecting Palm.
Well thats it! I hope I explained myself.
Happy Ramping!!!
@talgardo : In my experience, the true strength of the deck is not in protecting your Titan, but the fact that once you resolve your first Titan, it goes and gets it's friends as well. And most decks are not usually able to handle the stream of Titans (unless they have Chalice on 0 or something like this.) I do like to bring in Swan Songs as a disruptive tool, not a protection tool (though, of course, I will use it to protect my titan if need be.) I guess there are different approaches to the deck, and the way I see it is as a midrange deck with the possibility of a combo. In a lot of scenarios, the combo isn't even a kill, but simply puts you far ahead enough that your opponents can't come back. I have even lost games AFTER I have combo'ed! So the deck is customizable even to it's approach! Man, this deck is just too great
My opponent is playing with a very weird Green E Tron deck, and they resolve Ulamog. They attack once when I have 1 Titan already in play, as well of some dudes. I have only 39 cards on his attack, so I'm not dead because I can chump block, but I will deck after they attack for the second time. Ulamog trigger resolves and I go into my turn. I have bounceland and Gemnstone mine in hand. I have to attack with Titan, but I can't kill him, since he's at 20 and I can only attack for 12 with double strike Titan and 2 Scouts (of notice, I believe Kessig hits them for 19.) I'm going to die in my next draw step, so I can't fetch for Titan. I find the line. I have to attack with everything, bring my opponent down to 6, searching for T West and bounceland. Second main I transmute for Ballista, and play it for 4, leaving a bounceland in my hand. My opponent attacks in their turn, exiling the rest of my library, and I chump with a plant token. On my upkeep, I activate Ballista, and kill my opponent before drawing a cards from my cardless library. I'm attaching a screenshot, cause I thought it was too awesome not to share.
Is any of that true or has it been bugfixed or can you otherwise comment on this?
I found in sideboarded games that they slow up a bit with paths, palm and DR. It is weird to take advantage to that, but possible. Still my best sided games against burn still resolve well for me when drawing Azusa-Ruric-Thragtusk and or Radiant fountain.
I dont find Balloth to be necessary for the matchup, I feel favored in a 60% (not statistically) against burn. Also Double Amulet with a counter to back up beat them any day
In my experience, the Burn matchup is very positive. The thing about burn is that they're super consistent, and sometimes they just have the nuts and just beat you... But that's also the case with us, and I think that overall it's more likely for us to have the nuts than them. Also, sometimes the nuts for us simply include turn 1 Fountain, turn 2 explore fountain bounceland, turn 3 azusa, fountain, bounceland, gg. The matchup is definitely worse than it used to be, because now their Searing Blazes are actively good instead of a dead draw. Still, I find that turn 3/4 Titan is usually enough. Post board it does much better because they usually dilute their deck with Revelries/Shattering Sprees and Paths. When I board though I bring in the sweepers (this is definitely a matchup where Pyroclasm is better than K Return or Firespout,) and I really like Rec Sage, since it kills their Eidolon on ETB, and it trades with their Guides/eats a burn spell. The matchup depends a lot on whether they draw Eidolon or not. I feel like when I lose is because I took 6+ damage off it. I think I have yet to lose to the Shrine of Burning Rage version.
@anosmian I'm very interested in testing Root Maze. I haven't yet, but the idea behind it is quite solid. The only thing that kinda troubles me is the big ol' Leyline or Aether Vial effect of drawing it on turn 3/4 or simply drawing multiple copies. Maybe the effect is strong enough to be worth the risk. Mirrorpool seems honestly REALLY bad, and I feel like the lands you're taking out are simply stronger than that. I did try Cobra and wasn't impressed by it at all... STS and Azusa do the ramping job much better. Maybe if you're running Wolf Run instead of Sunhome it might be worth it, though. Or if you're running multiple Trackers MD, so you can crack those clues right away even with no Amulet in play. Maybe that would make it worth it, but I have my doubts...
dismember feels very favorable in maindeck now. it's good against storm, eldrazi tron, GDS, and 5C human which is getting popular.
wat do u guys think?
After some more testing, I agree. Tec Edge is here to stay in my board. It might just be the best weapon we have vs. Valakut. I did consider Crumble to Dust, but Tec Edge is simply better. It's an untapped land drop, tutorable with Titan and T west, it doesn't give them a basic, you can copy it with Vesuva, etc. One time it was very awkward against E Tron, though... They just had natural tron and I was forced to play my tec edge as a land drop, so they just didn't play another land and were able to deploy all their threats and I died. Still, it felt like the missing piece in the RG Scapeshift matchup. Another thing I changed is that I used to not bring in Swan Songs in that matchup, but since Mwonvuli Acid Moss is now pretty much a staple in their sideboards I do bring in both Songs mostly against that.
The sideboard tips up there are just gold, and I agree with all of them. One thing I'll point out is that against BGx and UW I like having more scouts than Azusas post board. This is because Scout allows you to play around Fulminator/Ghost Quarter/Spreading Seas and Azusa doesn't (because you can instant speed flash in a bounce land and return the land they're targeting to your hand.) Usually all removal you're trying to play around kills both Scout or Azusa (I guess Push needs to be revolted...) so I prefer to have Scout.
In terms of going to time, it's just a thing that might happen. I have played the deck for around 3 years, and still every so often I lose to the clock. The lines are sometimes very unconventional, and you just need to get familiar with them, and kinda know quickly what your outs are for whatever the situation is. Thinking in your opponent's turn is very very helpful, and planning 2 or 3 turns ahead is key to the deck, mostly in terms of sequencing. You just have to come to terms with the fact that at first you will make mistakes, and the more you play the least mistakes you'll make... but you'll still make them. So is the nature of this deck, which might easily be the hardest, most complicated and awesome viable deck in Modern.
League 1 4-1
Valakut: WW (2-0)
Jeskai Tempo: WLW (2-1)
RW Midrange: WW (2-0)
4C Death's Shadow: LWW (2-1)
GDS: WLL (1-2)
League 2 3-2
BR Cycling/Discard: WW (2-0)
Affinity: LL (0-2)
BW Eldrazi: LWL (1-2)
Lantern Control: WW (2-0)
Affinity: LWW (2-1)
League 3 5-0
Humans: WW (2-0)
Burn: WW (2-0)
Grixis Young Pyromancer: WW (2-0)
Burn (WW (2-0)
Affinity: LWW (2-1)
here are some of my thoughts after testing:
- Kessig Wolf Run: i think it's here to stay. i have won a significant no. of games that im convinced it's better than Sunhome. Although there are 1-2 games where i have double amulet in play but i cant kill an opponent straight away become i cant giv my titan double strike, it's fine since at this point we should be way ahead.
- Simian Spirit Guide: im not very sure abt this card. i only recall using it's ability once, and i find myself SB it out often, largely due to my uncertainty on what exact role it plays. maybe someone can advise me on which matchup SSG should stay/go.
- flew slot(tracker, ballista): i feel tracker is good enough that it earns the slot in maindeck. there was a game against 5C Humans where i play 2 tracker and essentially beat him to death with my huge trackers (+ kessig wolf run). however, im not sure if im comfortable not playing any ballista in main/SB. it felt as if i was missing that option of flexibility, although i dont think i hav lost a game for not having ballista yet.
- Tectonic Edge: unfortunately, this is the only card i haven't got the chance to test with. on paper it seems slow, since you can only activate it on the 4th land, and by then the tron opponent would have alrdy cast their payoff spell.
- Obstinate Baloth: i think i like this card. i once manage to pact into Baloth when my opponent plus their LilianaotV, and in another game it bought me some time against a burn opponent.
so far i haven't got a chance to play against those bad matchups (storm, ad nauseum etc), so i cant tell whether this is the list to go moving forward, but im liking it for now.
i might want to try another league or 2 with this list, just to get more results with some of the cards.
I will go ahead and try to run a couple of leagues with Kessig, since you guys are so high on it. I'll have to familiarize myself better with the Kessig math and stuff...
About the times where ballista is the only out, besides the situation that I posted earlier, some other situations have come up where Ballista was my only out were:
-vs Affinity, I had already used a Ghost Quarter to kill an Inky, and my opponent drew a second one and was threatening lethal with a cranial playing. Transmuted for Ballista and cast it on 1 for 5 mana, bought me several turns and I started pumping ballista to eventually win the game.
-vs the new 5c Humans deck: Opponent had 2 Meddling mages, one on Prime Time, one on EE. I transmuted for Ballista, killed the Prime Time one, cast titan, proceed to win the game.
-vs Burn: I'm locked out of the game because of Eidolon: I transmute for Ballista, cast it on 4, kill Eidolon, which unlocks the Summoner's pact in my hand, I pact for Titan, do amulet things and win.
-vs Lantern: Bridge in play, opp on no cards and at x amount of life, transmute for Ballista, deal x to their face over 2-3 turns unless they manage to draw an answer.
-vs Kiki chord/Blood Moon deck: They Chord for Magus of the Moon. I draw my 1 of Ballista, play it for 2, kill their Magus and win. Then I lost the match anyway cause, well, they're jamming 4 Blood Moons...
Those are just a couple of examples off the top of my head that I remember, and then there are simply times where I randomly draw it and on turn 2 it kills my opponent's Dark Confidant/Steel Overseer that they played on turn 2. The positives far outweigh the negatives in my experience, and I'm 100% a believer that, just like Tracker, it deserves a spot in the main. Also, I'm not convinced that Kessig by itself is better than Ballista vs Control, since Kessig has to sit in play in order to be activated, where it can be GQd, tec edged, Spreading seas'd, whereas for Ballista we can just sandbag a Cavern and then drop it and play Ballista on the same turn.
On 3 azusa, I feel it make sense mathematically since this list already plays 4 Explore and 1 Simian Spirit Spirit Guide as other ramp outlet. This list also runs 2 Tireless Tracker, so you are not running out of 3s to play. That being said, I think I would take out 1 Simian Spirit Guide and 1 Tireless Tracker for something like 1 Walking Ballista and 1 something else. I agree after testing those leagues Walking Ballista is certainly 1-of in the main. Having the option to kill off a problematic creature, or just to kill off the opponent is strong enough.
On Kessig Wolf Run, I highly recommend it. If you are in for the Walking Ballista kill, Kessig Wolf Run is essentially the same thing, but works on any of your creatures (works best on plant token).
Yesterday I joined a MTGO Modern Challenge with this list, however I did badly and went 3-4. Here's the breakdown:
Round 1: Eldrazi Tron (with Green) - 2-0
Round 2: Valakut - 2-0
Round 3: Bant Company - 1-2
Round 4: Jeskai Tempo - 1-2
Round 5: Abzan Company - 0-2
Round 6: UR Storm - 2-0 (totally unexpected, game2 he has 2 Blood Moon in play, but I was lucky and cast Ruric Thar and win the game)
Round 7: UW Grand Architect - 0-2
There are some games where I think I drew badly, but overall without Walking Ballista the matchup against Company deck is significantly worse.
Going forward I will probably try to come up with a list that's build upon davius' list. Some cards I am still not certain are the Simian Spirit Guide, 3rd Forest in main and 1 Tectonic Edge in side.
@ginko6 As I was pointing out above, trying to make too many things is not free for this deck anymore. Some people have tried the idea that you're talking as soon as Summer Bloom was banned (also playing around with the fact that Amulet+Sakura Tribe Scout/Skyshroud Ranger+Retreat+Bounceland is infinite mana). Eventually, people realized that the deck was diluting a bit too much it's game plan and wasn't yielding as good results as the current standard builds. Also, building the manabase would be a nightmare, since mixing fetches/shocklands AND Bouncelands AND also having some utility lands would be really rough. Still, I'd encourage you to try and brew with whatever cards you like, since the deck is so much fun for a reason. People have tried adding Through The Breach, Hive Mind, Knight/Coralhelm and more cards within this shell, with varied results. There's no reason for you to stop experimenting, you might figure out a right build and actually break it!