@0oSunnYo0 The main appeal to leyline is the ability to play it on turn 0. Also, the matchups you want leyline are matchups against destructive revelry or k-command. By the time you can cast orb, it may be irrelevant or easy to deal with.
Yep both the points about grudge / K-command and turn 0 viability make sense and I knew this in the back of my mind. It's just something I've never tested so was wondering if anybody had! Probably bad enough on paper that it's not worth testing.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Anyone see the list with 3x dismember main that was posted? Went 7-2 in an online ptq or something. I'm interested in a list that drops explores and runs only 4x scout and 4x Azusa as ramp. I want to fill in the rest of the deck with relics, extra explosives, more interaction and maybe an extra green idiot for pact. Any thoughts on a list like that looking to push a little further into midrange land with only the best enablers of the combo.
How are people sideboarding for the GB rock matchups? they run 3x ghost quarter and 4x fulminator mage post board, and I've found that boarding out of amulet and scout can leave me behind when they repeatedly destroy our karoos. Being able to bounce the land they target is a strong tactic that I feel helps, and it might be worth it to leave scout in.
That said, scout turns on their pushes and still requires you to have karoos in hand to be effective. We have to weigh this benefit against the drawback of collateral damage from our own sweepers which are strong vs Bob and grim flayer. Ramunap may be a card, but I've found myself unable to get him and Azusa out at the same time, and it still being too slow. Also, flayer trampling over plant tokens is very bad.
Right now I'd say:
-4 amulet
-1 pact of negation
-1 primeval Titan
-1 cavern of souls
@djbenji I don't love K-Return, as it doesn't take long before Grim Flayer, Scooze and Goyf are out of range of it. I agree with your original strategy (-4 amulet, -1 pact of negation, -1 primeval Titan, -1 cavern of souls, +2 dismember, +1 hornet queen, +2 tireless tracker, +1 bojuka bog, +1 thragtusk), except I would consider going -1 Selesnya Sanctuary over the Cavern, as the Karoos are really a liability in this matchup (I actively don't want to see them, as they represent such a huge swing into a Fulminator, and we don't have amulets so aren't abusing them much other than to bounce utility lands). Otherwise I agree with your assessment. I would like to find a place for the Excavator as well - maybe go down another Titan or Walking Ballista, but I like the 3rd Titan and Ballista so I would have to think about it. Hope this feedback helps.
What do you guys think about Opt? Now that the card is being reprinted, it could possibly be an alternative to serum visions in the lists running them. Instant speed doesn't matter that much for us, but it could still be better than serum visions in our deck if we're just missing 1 piece and can find it with the scry. However, sleight of hand might just be better since we don't really care about instant speed. Situations where instant speed could be relevant are against Lantern and decks we need to hold up swan song for.
What do you guys think about Opt? Now that the card is being reprinted, it could possibly be an alternative to serum visions in the lists running them. Instant speed doesn't matter that much for us, but it could still be better than serum visions in our deck if we're just missing 1 piece and can find it with the scry. However, sleight of hand might just be better since we don't really care about instant speed. Situations where instant speed could be relevant are against Lantern and decks we need to hold up swan song for.
I would equate Opt to Sleight of Hand for us (instant speed is fairly irrelevant). They both look at (up to) the top 2 cards. Since we tend to value Serum Visions over Sleight I assume we'll want Serum Visions still.
Thanks for all the replies. I think Opt will see a lot of play in Modern in decks that want to hold up mana for interaction on their opponents' turns, and decks that want more cantrips in addition to the cantrips they're already running. However, I do agree after consideration that serum or sleight are better for amulet as the additional info is more valuable than instant speed in our deck.
What's the strategy vs Jeskai Tempo? Bobby boards out amulets and scouts, and boards in threats, dismembers and swan songs. Dismember didn't feel great to me, but I can't think of a better strategy. If you don't bring in dismembers and try to keep up with tempo, they'll just swing a couple times and then helix/electrolyze/bolt and snap back to close the game. You can't sit back and find your cavern and cast threat after threat to dry up their removal, because you're taking 3-5 dmg per turn you don't do anything. I think Ruric has to be a big part of this, but I'm not smart enough to know the answer. Help appreciated, thanks.
@grilledcheese @daviusminimus
I'll cut scouts against any deck playing electrolyze. Unlike UW control, Jeskai can present a reasonable clock, so I would never cut amulets. I am also in the camp of almost never cutting amulets though. So much of the deck's strength is from the card that I need a really good reason to cut them, like seeing multiple ancient grudges from an opponent. I board out scouts, board in thragtusk, trackers, and dismember if I've see spell queller, because that card is annoying. Most of their removal is burn, so they have limited answers to a resolved titan.
thanks for the feedback guys. I've come to the conclusion that 1) Trinket Mage just isn't cutting it right now due to the lack of room for Pithing Needle and Chalice in the board and the fact that when you need EE and Relic to survive, you need it right now, not after you tap out to put it in your hand to play it next turn. And 2) Dismember is great against Storm, Jeskai Tempo, Counters Company (bad match-up), BG Rock and Jund, Death's Shadow variants, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Death/Eldrazi & Taxes, and so much more. Pretty much everything but U/W Control, Titanshift, Tron, and some combo decks that Trinket Mage wouldn't help against much anyway (grab an amulet and go off next turn if they don't). I think there is an argument to bringing a second Dismember mainboard as well over the 4th Azusa, but for now I think I'll leave it. I also want to bring back GQ main because I hate losing to tron, but there is a ton of Snap control in my LGS scene so Bog stays in for now. I didn't like the Ramunap Excavator either - the GQ lock happens too late in the game usually, and otherwise it's only good if they've Fulminator'd you, and in that case you're usually getting beat and not spending your summoner's pact on an Excavator - so I brought in an Ancient Grudge, which I think I prefer over Seal of Primordium in a meta without many Blood Moons. Here's my current list if anyone is interested.
What's the strategy vs Jeskai Tempo? Bobby boards out amulets and scouts, and boards in threats, dismembers and swan songs. Dismember didn't feel great to me, but I can't think of a better strategy. If you don't bring in dismembers and try to keep up with tempo, they'll just swing a couple times and then helix/electrolyze/bolt and snap back to close the game. You can't sit back and find your cavern and cast threat after threat to dry up their removal, because you're taking 3-5 dmg per turn you don't do anything. I think Ruric has to be a big part of this, but I'm not smart enough to know the answer. Help appreciated, thanks.
I've played all versions of Jeskai control in the current meta and might have some insight here, but the strategy all depends on the list your opponent is running. The most competitive and common list at the moment is the 'new flash' list packing 4x Spell Queller alongside some amount of Geist of Saint-Traft and Vendilion Clique as the main-board creatures. They will also run close to the full playset of bolt/helix/electrolyze, and usually 4 of Mana Leak / Logic Knot / Remand. In the first 3 turns of the game these are the cards you need to anticipate. After sideboard Jeskai will possibly bring in up to 2 Ceremonious Rejection and up to 2 Wear // Tear for the MU and maybe a Supreme Verdict if they have one or two in the board. Shadow of Doubt is less common but a good card they can play against Amulet.
Dismember is great against Spell Queller but useless against Geist of Saint Traft. Unfortunately this leaves the amulet player in an awkward position of wanting to board in both dismember AND kozilek's return/pyroclasm, but neither of the latter spells competes with Spell Queller's 3 toughness. Cavern of souls also does not help against Spell Queller. If the Jeskai player does not play Geist of Saint Traft then it's less complicated since you will not need a sweeper. HOWEVER if they do tap out on turn 3 for Geist this opens up a huge window for the Amulet player, but that window is not there if you have boarded out amulets.
My general advice would be;
- always bring in dismember if you see spell queller. You can actually gain tempo Vs. Jeskai if you leave 1 mana open for dismember and then play a spell you know your opponent will Spell Queller. Immidiately kill the queller and then force your opponent to deal with your resolved spell in his turn (further opening him up by making him tap in his own turn).
- never board out amulets as they do not have any main-deck answer to a resolved amulet and only have 1 and pssible a second sideboard answer for a resolved amulet
- only bring in Kozi's Return / Pyroclasm if you are sure they are running a 4x geist list, otherwise plan to use their 3rd-turn tap out to land massive titan value.
- board out all Sakura-Tribe Scouts as they will eat this card with a lightning bolt or electrolye and get further ahead on tempo
- consider boarding out 1x or 2x Azusa for this same reason. However Azusa is keepable as it can ramp you before they get priority if you have the right lands. If you play explore then boarding out azusa is more viable. Explore is actually great in this MU.
- board in any creature with toughness over 3 if you can make room. Even Obstinate Baloth is decent in this MU as burn is half their plan and to be able to gain 4 life and block geist of saint traft / snapcaster is valuable. Thragtusk is a house too as the trigger for gaining the beast token is 'when Thragtusk leaves the battlefield' rather than 'when Thragtusk dies' which is important considering Jeskai run so many exile effects (path, anger, etc).
- unless the opponent is tapped out and you can 1 hit KO, it is almost always correct to search or simic/tolaria for your first titan resolution. This is because you can expect your opponent to deal with your first and probably second titan, however, Jeskai Flash lists contain exactly zero card-draw spells and rely on cantripping through the deck instead. This means that it is harder for Jeskai to beat a titan chain than say Esper or UW control. Jeskai also runs few to zero Wrath effects unless it's the Draw-Go version.
- Ruric is good here.
- Graveyard hate works well the longer the game goes on.
@0oSunnYo0 *slow clap* - so thorough, I have dealt with so many of those situations. Thank you for the thoughtful commentary, your firsthand experience is super useful. This is why I love the amulet community - so many dedicated followers with great feedback for the group. Can't wait for this matchup now!
@0oSunnYo0 *slow clap* - so thorough, I have dealt with so many of those situations. Thank you for the thoughtful commentary, your firsthand experience is super useful. This is why I love the amulet community - so many dedicated followers with great feedback for the group. Can't wait for this matchup now!
Any time amigo! I could chat anybody's ear off about the MU. I actually have to add a small detail or two;
- when using spot removal on a Spell Queller be concious of when the ETB trigger is put on the stack and resolved. Don't remove spell queller from the battlefield before its ETB trigger resolves, any attempt to do so risks your own spell staying in exile for eternity. This won't be pulled up on by your FNM opponent but at a PPTQ or such I imagine it could lose you a game.
- if Ruric Thar is in your deck, try not to search for him as your 1st Pact target. Titans will land more value early game. He is a match-winner if you resolve him after Jeskai has spent resources and is relying on multiple burn spells or cantripping into answers. He will often do 6-12 damage off his trigger at this point in the game, whereas if you present him as their first removal target he will only represent 3 damage.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
@Bob449 beat me to it, just about to post this. The rule change doesn't explicitly call our Vesuva's effect but I also assume that it nullifies the ability to copy basics. Karoos coming in untapped is a small consolation for one of the few good tools we have against blood moon. It's a bummer.
Following up Bob and GrilledCheese. They are correct, with the new rules Vesuva doesn't copy anything as it ETBs with Blood Moon out. You cannot name anything with Cavern either. This is going to hurt more than help in most scenarios.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
That said, scout turns on their pushes and still requires you to have karoos in hand to be effective. We have to weigh this benefit against the drawback of collateral damage from our own sweepers which are strong vs Bob and grim flayer. Ramunap may be a card, but I've found myself unable to get him and Azusa out at the same time, and it still being too slow. Also, flayer trampling over plant tokens is very bad.
Right now I'd say:
-4 amulet
-1 pact of negation
-1 primeval Titan
-1 cavern of souls
+2 dismember
+1 hornet queen
+2 tireless tracker
+1 bojuka bog
+1 thragtusk
---------------------
Maybe -4 scout, +1 ramunap +2 koz return, +1 primeval Titan (leave 4th in)?
Taking out 1x Titan bc of surgical and Liliana or thoughtseize combo.
I would equate Opt to Sleight of Hand for us (instant speed is fairly irrelevant). They both look at (up to) the top 2 cards. Since we tend to value Serum Visions over Sleight I assume we'll want Serum Visions still.
=D
I think is worth to give it a try.
I'll cut scouts against any deck playing electrolyze. Unlike UW control, Jeskai can present a reasonable clock, so I would never cut amulets. I am also in the camp of almost never cutting amulets though. So much of the deck's strength is from the card that I need a really good reason to cut them, like seeing multiple ancient grudges from an opponent. I board out scouts, board in thragtusk, trackers, and dismember if I've see spell queller, because that card is annoying. Most of their removal is burn, so they have limited answers to a resolved titan.
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boros Garrison
2 Botanical Sanctum
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Gruul Turf
1 Khalni Garden
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
3 Tolaria West
1 Vesuva
4 Amulet of Vigor
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pact of Negation
4 Primeval Titan
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
3 Serum Visions
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Dismember
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hornet Queen
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Swan Song
1 Thragtusk
2 Tireless Tracker
I've played all versions of Jeskai control in the current meta and might have some insight here, but the strategy all depends on the list your opponent is running. The most competitive and common list at the moment is the 'new flash' list packing 4x Spell Queller alongside some amount of Geist of Saint-Traft and Vendilion Clique as the main-board creatures. They will also run close to the full playset of bolt/helix/electrolyze, and usually 4 of Mana Leak / Logic Knot / Remand. In the first 3 turns of the game these are the cards you need to anticipate. After sideboard Jeskai will possibly bring in up to 2 Ceremonious Rejection and up to 2 Wear // Tear for the MU and maybe a Supreme Verdict if they have one or two in the board. Shadow of Doubt is less common but a good card they can play against Amulet.
Dismember is great against Spell Queller but useless against Geist of Saint Traft. Unfortunately this leaves the amulet player in an awkward position of wanting to board in both dismember AND kozilek's return/pyroclasm, but neither of the latter spells competes with Spell Queller's 3 toughness. Cavern of souls also does not help against Spell Queller. If the Jeskai player does not play Geist of Saint Traft then it's less complicated since you will not need a sweeper. HOWEVER if they do tap out on turn 3 for Geist this opens up a huge window for the Amulet player, but that window is not there if you have boarded out amulets.
My general advice would be;
- always bring in dismember if you see spell queller. You can actually gain tempo Vs. Jeskai if you leave 1 mana open for dismember and then play a spell you know your opponent will Spell Queller. Immidiately kill the queller and then force your opponent to deal with your resolved spell in his turn (further opening him up by making him tap in his own turn).
- never board out amulets as they do not have any main-deck answer to a resolved amulet and only have 1 and pssible a second sideboard answer for a resolved amulet
- only bring in Kozi's Return / Pyroclasm if you are sure they are running a 4x geist list, otherwise plan to use their 3rd-turn tap out to land massive titan value.
- board out all Sakura-Tribe Scouts as they will eat this card with a lightning bolt or electrolye and get further ahead on tempo
- consider boarding out 1x or 2x Azusa for this same reason. However Azusa is keepable as it can ramp you before they get priority if you have the right lands. If you play explore then boarding out azusa is more viable. Explore is actually great in this MU.
- board in any creature with toughness over 3 if you can make room. Even Obstinate Baloth is decent in this MU as burn is half their plan and to be able to gain 4 life and block geist of saint traft / snapcaster is valuable. Thragtusk is a house too as the trigger for gaining the beast token is 'when Thragtusk leaves the battlefield' rather than 'when Thragtusk dies' which is important considering Jeskai run so many exile effects (path, anger, etc).
- unless the opponent is tapped out and you can 1 hit KO, it is almost always correct to search or simic/tolaria for your first titan resolution. This is because you can expect your opponent to deal with your first and probably second titan, however, Jeskai Flash lists contain exactly zero card-draw spells and rely on cantripping through the deck instead. This means that it is harder for Jeskai to beat a titan chain than say Esper or UW control. Jeskai also runs few to zero Wrath effects unless it's the Draw-Go version.
- Ruric is good here.
- Graveyard hate works well the longer the game goes on.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Wow, amazing work mate!
Any time amigo! I could chat anybody's ear off about the MU. I actually have to add a small detail or two;
- when using spot removal on a Spell Queller be concious of when the ETB trigger is put on the stack and resolved. Don't remove spell queller from the battlefield before its ETB trigger resolves, any attempt to do so risks your own spell staying in exile for eternity. This won't be pulled up on by your FNM opponent but at a PPTQ or such I imagine it could lose you a game.
- if Ruric Thar is in your deck, try not to search for him as your 1st Pact target. Titans will land more value early game. He is a match-winner if you resolve him after Jeskai has spent resources and is relying on multiple burn spells or cantripping into answers. He will often do 6-12 damage off his trigger at this point in the game, whereas if you present him as their first removal target he will only represent 3 damage.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza