Unlike the new Karn, the new Ugin's a card that's somewhat interesting for the deck. The +1 creates a blocker and +1 CA when it dies, the -3 pops a pretty wide variety of permanents, and the static ability is pretty good.
The problem is that it's not strictly better than any of the cards currently in the deck, but new Ugin's a far more impactful card T3 than new Karn, and you don't have to get rid of half of your SB to use it.
EDIT: To clarify my latter statement, I don't think he'll be a mainstay because he doesn't help stabilize as much as any of our other 6-7 drops do, but unlike the new Karn, the new Ugin actually has immediate impact.
I tested new Ugin in Mono-G Tron back when he was only a rumour, and I'm not convinced he's good enough for this deck. His static ability does surprisingly little (the cantrip rock chain typically peters out at 2-3 rocks), his +1 clashes with Oblivion Stone too much (I've found from my testing that killing Matter Reshaper is worthwhile because the tempo loss is real, and his tokens are rather Matter Reshaper-like) and doesn't put pressure on the opponent fast enough, and his -3 doesn't disrupt combo enough, as it cannot boot lands. There's no way I'm booting any of my playset of Karn Liberated for this guy, and I currently like my odds with Karn, the Great Creator and his ability to poop out a board wipe or one-sided omni-Armageddon better.
I think new Ugin is better in Eldrazi Tron, which has a better time disrupting combo early and has a noticeably harder time hitting 7 mana than 6 mana.
New Ugin - although guaranteed to affect the board on the turn it‘s played - does not seem to do enough for my taste (in comparison to our other stuff at 6-8 cmc). Don‘t get me wrong, I don‘t think it‘s bad. New Karn on the other hand has built-in artifact hate and an easy way to close out the game. I am also not very fond of the all-in wishboard plan: I’d rather play 1-2 New Karns MB and 1 Mycosynth Lattice SB - not change too much, but enjoy the fact that no matter whether it‘s game 1, 2, 3 or how I board, I‘d always have access to my 75 and almost everything can be found off Ancient Stirrings. Sounds quite good to me.
Honestly, I believe that the new Karn will be absolutly insane for us. Ill plan on testing at least 2 possibly 4 in the main board replacing Ulamog, maybe an o-stone, and maybe a relic.
I think we can all attest that at times drawing a Ulamog or having one in your opening hand can be almost a dead draw at least in my opinion whereas the new Karn is always relevant as its only 4 CMC. Having access to your sideboard in game one can be huge, as ill plan on playing some one-off cards like Tormod's Crypt, gravediggers cage, etc which could free up some duplicate space in the sideboard.
The static ability on Karn is like having a stony silence in the main board which I think has the potential to get us free wins against affinity and the mirror.
The fact that new Karn can serve as a win con is the cherry on top IMO. Having a card that when it resolves can win the game when we have 10 mana is great but it's even better when it can do double duty.
I honestly think the sky is the limit with this card as it will give us the ability to be much more dynamic in game one and may end up freeing up some sideboard options
I would love to hear your guys opinion on my take of this card. Am I being too optimistic or is there any other people that think this is the nuts?
Honestly, I believe that the new Karn will be absolutly insane for us. Ill plan on testing at least 2 possibly 4 in the main board replacing Ulamog, maybe an o-stone, and maybe a relic.
I think we can all attest that at times drawing a Ulamog or having one in your opening hand can be almost a dead draw at least in my opinion whereas the new Karn is always relevant as its only 4 CMC. Having access to your sideboard in game one can be huge, as ill plan on playing some one-off cards like Tormod's Crypt, gravediggers cage, etc which could free up some duplicate space in the sideboard.
The static ability on Karn is like having a stony silence in the main board which I think has the potential to get us free wins against affinity and the mirror.
The fact that new Karn can serve as a win con is the cherry on top IMO. Having a card that when it resolves can win the game when we have 10 mana is great but it's even better when it can do double duty.
I honestly think the sky is the limit with this card as it will give us the ability to be much more dynamic in game one and may end up freeing up some sideboard options
I would love to hear your guys opinion on my take of this card. Am I being too optimistic or is there any other people that think this is the nuts?
You nailed most of my thoughts. I actually go back and forth with cutting Ulamog from the mainboard because I hate having it in my opener so badly, same goes for O-Stone. New Karn being a win condition itself is nice,but I read it as 'you now have in hand whatever card you need right now'. I could not be more indifferent to the Lattice plan, I really couldn't, but this will let me take some of the cards I am not happy to see in every matchup but can't cut from the mainboard and have the best of both worlds. Not just general sideboard stuff either, it's like Eye of Ugin come back to us, because I can put Ulamog in the side and only have it when I want it. I may cut all or most of the creatures from the main and run them as 1-2 in the side, lower the curve a bit. I think people are a bit misguided with the Lattice plan, we don't need off the wall ways to win, we have the cards already for the best late game in the format, ones that don't rely on this new Karn staying in play. this is the thing to give us flexibility beyond our powerful but straightforward plan A. I absolutely love it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Honestly, I believe that the new Karn will be absolutly insane for us. Ill plan on testing at least 2 possibly 4 in the main board replacing Ulamog, maybe an o-stone, and maybe a relic.
I think we can all attest that at times drawing a Ulamog or having one in your opening hand can be almost a dead draw at least in my opinion whereas the new Karn is always relevant as its only 4 CMC. Having access to your sideboard in game one can be huge, as ill plan on playing some one-off cards like Tormod's Crypt, gravediggers cage, etc which could free up some duplicate space in the sideboard.
The static ability on Karn is like having a stony silence in the main board which I think has the potential to get us free wins against affinity and the mirror.
The fact that new Karn can serve as a win con is the cherry on top IMO. Having a card that when it resolves can win the game when we have 10 mana is great but it's even better when it can do double duty.
I honestly think the sky is the limit with this card as it will give us the ability to be much more dynamic in game one and may end up freeing up some sideboard options
I would love to hear your guys opinion on my take of this card. Am I being too optimistic or is there any other people that think this is the nuts?
You nailed most of my thoughts. I actually go back and forth with cutting Ulamog from the mainboard because I hate having it in my opener so badly, same goes for O-Stone. New Karn being a win condition itself is nice,but I read it as 'you now have in hand whatever card you need right now'. I could not be more indifferent to the Lattice plan, I really couldn't, but this will let me take some of the cards I am not happy to see in every matchup but can't cut from the mainboard and have the best of both worlds. Not just general sideboard stuff either, it's like Eye of Ugin come back to us, because I can put Ulamog in the side and only have it when I want it. I may cut all or most of the creatures from the main and run them as 1-2 in the side, lower the curve a bit. I think people are a bit misguided with the Lattice plan, we don't need off the wall ways to win, we have the cards already for the best late game in the format, ones that don't rely on this new Karn staying in play. this is the thing to give us flexibility beyond our powerful but straightforward plan A. I absolutely love it.
Just got back from GP São Paulo, started yesterday with a nice 7-1 at the Day 2 cutoff... then got trounced by Hardened Scales. Met it four times in the final stretch of the tournament, lost three of these. Still finished 10-5, which was not bad.
But it looks like I need to get more practice on this matchup, so I'd appreciate any pointers/experience you guys can share.
Just got back from GP São Paulo, started yesterday with a nice 7-1 at the Day 2 cutoff... then got trounced by Hardened Scales. Met it four times in the final stretch of the tournament, lost three of these. Still finished 10-5, which was not bad.
But it looks like I need to get more practice on this matchup, so I'd appreciate any pointers/experience you guys can share.
Explosion Zone is an interesting new Map/Scrying target.
Yeah, I just ditched Scavenger Grounds for a "Blast Zone", and having removal on a land has been absolutely swell! While we may not have the room, I'm convinced there are some other decks that want more than 1 of this bad boy.
Explosion Zone is an interesting new Map/Scrying target.
Yeah, I just ditched Scavenger Grounds for a "Blast Zone", and having removal on a land has been absolutely swell! While we may not have the room, I'm convinced there are some other decks that want more than 1 of this bad boy.
I would rather Wish with New Karn for a Crucible and use it a bunch of times than play multiples
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Explosion Zone is an interesting new Map/Scrying target.
Yeah, I just ditched Scavenger Grounds for a "Blast Zone", and having removal on a land has been absolutely swell! While we may not have the room, I'm convinced there are some other decks that want more than 1 of this bad boy.
I would rather Wish with New Karn for a Crucible and use it a bunch of times than play multiples
Yeah, and I'd rather just draw a Karn Liberated than a Great Creator if we're talking about drawing random cards with Tron online.
The big draw with Blast Zone is we can actually tutor for it if we draw Scrying/Map.
Tested Karn, the Great Creator in (pre-board) games against Burn, Affinity, UR Phoenix, and Eldrazi Tron (and my Bolas's Citadel combo deck for kicks). Karn GC was so good that I upped him to a full playset.
The wishboard is currently Mycosynth Lattice, Oblivion Stone, Walking Ballista, Witchbane Orb, Relic of Progenitus, and Spellskite. The first 3 were wished for the most often (yes, this includes Mycosynth against aggro once I've cleared the board). I switched wishboard Wurmcoil Engine to Ballista once I was too mana-strapped against Affinity, and Ballista has been so darn versatile (e.g. Karn GC can ETB, wish for and play Ballista on 8 mana, and then 2-counter Ballista can block a Burn dude and kill Eidolon of the Great Revel on their turn without triggering EotGR). Witchbane Orb (or Orbs of Warding) might be the best wish target against Burn because it dodges "burn Karn GC in response" (although they WILL burn Karn GC the next turn because they have no better place to put the burn spell). Spellskite is more of a flex slot wall that I board in against Bogles and Infect because that's the only way it'll do anything fast enough, but it's one of the 5(!!) wishboard targets that do something against Burn. Board it in against Burn, though.
Especially since I'm still testing Bond of Flourishing (it's semi-earning its keep so far), I've cut down on win cons and gone down to 2 maindeck Relic of Progenitus. 4 Karn Liberated are still too versatile to quit and 3 O. Stone are still dandy, and the rest of the haymakers are 2 Walking Ballista (shame the only way to make room for one more of this guy is to cut a flex slot or another win con), 2 Wurmcoil Engine (me dropping to 1 again is a distinct possibility, but I did ditch Conduit of Ruin for a reason), 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (I never completely believed in the guy, so he's always been only a 1-of for me), and 1 Newlamog (Karn GC primarily mass wiping permanents or mass hosing opposing lands gives me the confidence to go down to 1 big Eldrazi).
I'm not completely sure how many small hosers that buy time that we should put in the wishboard. Karn GC can wish for rocks 2 turns in a row against several combo decks (Living End, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Griselbrand combo variants, Bolas's Citadel combo variants, sometimes RG Valakut). The 4th(/3rd) Relic feels like it's taking up one of those slots alongside Spellskite, and I'm tempted to try something like Trinisphere, but I'm not quite sure I have the room. The small hoser wishboard section is also the last bastion for Crucible of Worlds, although Walking Ballista might be good enough against land hate.
In the meantime, Blast Zone has been blowing stuff up left, right, and center. The biggest kill so far is Thought-Knot Seer, and yes, I only needed 1 turn to sufficiently charge up Blast Zone.
Tested Karn, the Great Creator in (pre-board) games against Burn, Affinity, UR Phoenix, and Eldrazi Tron (and my Bolas's Citadel combo deck for kicks). Karn GC was so good that I upped him to a full playset.
Tested Karn, the Great Creator in (pre-board) games against Burn, Affinity, UR Phoenix, and Eldrazi Tron (and my Bolas's Citadel combo deck for kicks). Karn GC was so good that I upped him to a full playset.
What did he do (besides affinity)?
Against Eldrazi Tron, Karn GC looked for Oblivion Stone or Mycosynth Lattice most of the time. It's O. Stone if I'm behind on the board and Mycosynth if the board is clear or I can block all their stuff on the battlefield.
Against Burn...you got the details in my previous post. Karn GC usually wishes for some combination of Witchbane Orb, Walking Ballista, and Spellskite (the turn Karn GC ETB).
Against UR Phoenix, Karn GC looked for O. Stone most of the time and Mycosynth once the board was clear or all they had was Thing in the Ice. Karn GC is kinda lame against living Arclight Phoenix (your best way to eliminate them continuously is fat Walking Ballista), but if you hate them that much, there's always Perilous Vault or Wurmcoil Engine.
Against my Bolas's Citadel combo deck, Karn GC looks for Mycosynth like he close to always does against combo. Karn GC alone stops my combo deck from using my mana rock ramp profitably, which means that I expect similar good results from Karn GC alone against Ad Nauseam. UR Storm will be riskier, especially if they maindeck bounce or Bolt, so if I cannot play Mycosynth that turn, Karn GC may be better off wishing for Spellskite/Relic of Progenitus or considering Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst instead.
Against Affinity, Karn GC looked for O. Stone or Ballista most of the time, and he only got out Mycosynth once they were reduced to lands and noncreature permanents. His hoser doesn't tend to do that much against them because O. Stone is often the best wish target, but Affinity has some tough calls to make about whether they want to kill him before I wish for Ballista or they want to inflict some extra damage to my head.
It’s interesting, but the 1-card exile is a little weak in the lens of the GY decks you’re likely to run into in Modern. 1-card exile is best when you’re playing against decks like Goryo’s, where you get to blow out their spell that they spend most of the game setting up for. Unfortunately, most of the GY decks either use the GY incidentally (Phoenix) or in such a way that exiling a single card on average isn’t that relevant (Dredge). Exiling a single Phoenix really isn’t worth 1G and a card, and it’s rare for Dredge to be overly reliant on a single card in their GY. Sometimes you could gimp them if they keep a 1-dredger hand, or if you get to pick a timely Conflagrate, but again 1G is kind of slow. It’s hard to justify when you could be playing Nature’s Claims and Surgicals, that while taking up more board space come down a lot faster in the MUs where the effect is relevant (and in the case of Surgical, a lot more powerful of an effect).
It’s definitely a card to keep in mind for SB consolidation if the 1-card exile effect becomes more relevant in the future, though.
The fact that we're even discussing a colourless wishboard is just amazing haha.
Also just in case anyone was thinking about it, karn wrecks the mirror match and occasionally the Stony silence effect neuters a deck without needing to wish for anything.
Oh and (a trick from playing Sydri, galvanic genius in commander) you can animate opposing artifacts and then kill them with creature removal. Why is this relevant? Well..... I guess one of your wish targets could be liquimetal coating and you could use it like a rishadan port with karn's static ability, or destroy lands entirely with karn's +1 (which is a pretty good rate and seems viable), switch off planeswalkers for a turn, negate any permanent with an activated ability, or just kill them outright with creature removal by using karn's +1. Seems pretty versatile as an option actually.
But you're talking of a different deck here... If you go this route, you have to admit it's a very slow kill, that requires building around this interaction, and locking most of opponent's pressure, the time you get rid of his/her lands. This is for Whir Prison for example (and even Whir isn't the right shell for this), not for Tron...
I believe this Karn isn't for Tron unfortunately. Usually by turn 3, when we reach tron, we are quite often behind the clock, we want to empty the board and start deploying our stuff. This Karn does none of these.
Then the Lattice combo, well if a single creature is there -which is likely to be the case if you don't clean the board and play this Karn instead-, the combo doesn't work anymore. You ends up with Lattice in play, doing nothing useful.
Get rid of artifact lands against Affinity? It's cute when you're behind the clock, under pressure, to spend your mana and your turn killing lands rather than the 2/3 key artifacts pressuring you...
I was on the hipe for Planar Bridge, because I was thinking it could fill the role of Eye of Ugin, and even why not going 5 color PL with it, but I was wrong, the single turn lost cost me more games than the benefit of having constant threat after turn 4. This Karn looks exactly in the same spot.
Now the new Ugin, looks better already, but 1/2 of would be the maximum I guess, as the +1 isn't strong enough compare to what we have already. I rather prefer a Wurmcoil, which for me looks far better than this Ugin for 6 cmc slot. So i'm not sure it will fit...
And Blast Zone for me is the only real deal for Tron, as 1 of max, could help late game to transform tutor to usefull game plan... Atm we don't have much target for the late game, Sanctum of Ugin and Ghost Quarter are the only pieces of toolbox we have to recycle those tutors, this could fit in pretty well I guess.
The fact that we're even discussing a colourless wishboard is just amazing haha.
Also just in case anyone was thinking about it, karn wrecks the mirror match and occasionally the Stony silence effect neuters a deck without needing to wish for anything.
Oh and (a trick from playing Sydri, galvanic genius in commander) you can animate opposing artifacts and then kill them with creature removal. Why is this relevant? Well..... I guess one of your wish targets could be liquimetal coating and you could use it like a rishadan port with karn's static ability, or destroy lands entirely with karn's +1 (which is a pretty good rate and seems viable), switch off planeswalkers for a turn, negate any permanent with an activated ability, or just kill them outright with creature removal by using karn's +1. Seems pretty versatile as an option actually.
But you're talking of a different deck here... If you go this route, you have to admit it's a very slow kill, that requires building around this interaction, and locking most of opponent's pressure, the time you get rid of his/her lands. This is for Whir Prison for example (and even Whir isn't the right shell for this), not for Tron...
I believe this Karn isn't for Tron unfortunately. Usually by turn 3, when we reach tron, we are quite often behind the clock, we want to empty the board and start deploying our stuff. This Karn does none of these.
Then the Lattice combo, well if a single creature is there -which is likely to be the case if you don't clean the board and play this Karn instead-, the combo doesn't work anymore. You ends up with Lattice in play, doing nothing useful.
Get rid of artifact lands against Affinity? It's cute when you're behind the clock, under pressure, to spend your mana and your turn killing lands rather than the 2/3 key artifacts pressuring you...
I was on the hipe for Planar Bridge, because I was thinking it could fill the role of Eye of Ugin, and even why not going 5 color PL with it, but I was wrong, the single turn lost cost me more games than the benefit of having constant threat after turn 4. This Karn looks exactly in the same spot.
Now the new Ugin, looks better already, but 1/2 of would be the maximum I guess, as the +1 isn't strong enough compare to what we have already. I rather prefer a Wurmcoil, which for me looks far better than this Ugin for 6 cmc slot. So i'm not sure it will fit...
And Blast Zone for me is the only real deal for Tron, as 1 of max, could help late game to transform tutor to usefull game plan... Atm we don't have much target for the late game, Sanctum of Ugin and Ghost Quarter are the only pieces of toolbox we have to recycle those tutors, this could fit in pretty well I guess.
so let's assume that in a given game, we are able to assemble tron 'on time'.
let's also assume that we need a sweeper (o-stone for example).
drawn the o-stone? play it, activate it on 4th turn.
drawn a new Karn? play it, minus, fetch 4th O-stone, play it, activate it on turn 4.
same net result, but allows you more virtual copies of o-stone in the deck.
alright let's imagine you need to take an opponent off a land next turn to stunt their growth and allow you to take over the game. Again, it's turn 3 and we've got 7 mana:
drawn Karn Liberated? play it, minus and exile a land
drawn new karn? play it, fetch liquimetal coating, play it, turn one of their lands into a stony-silenced artifact in their upkeep.
not 100% alignment here, but in many situations this will be net-result the same in terms of the effect on the outcome of the game. Coating can continue to lock down a land for as long as Karn remains on the battlefield (or another permanent). issues with this line are cards like Lightning Bolt, of course.
let's go further:
mirror match. not uncommon. a card that's been utilised in the past but never been a total staple is crucible of worlds. With new Karn, suddenly you're much more likely to be able to fetch up and cast this card, enabling the looping of ghost quarter or horizon canopy. As a singleton in the sideboard it wasn't always impressive, but as a reliable tutor target the efficacy is magnified. I can't foresee where we'd sit on this card in the fullness of time, but being able to just fetch it out and cast it on turn three against certain decks would prove useful I think.
even further: ensnaring bridge: alright go with me on a journey. This card is traditionally, in our current iterations of Tron a bad card. We have no way to fetch it up, it interferes with our creature threats and running one in the sideboard would be a wasted slot. However let's consider what would happen if we were suddenly able to tutor this card up in most games. would that change the profile of this card in terms of its usefulness? Sitting behind a wall for a couple of turns while establishing a dominant position through planeswalkers would be a powerful way to approach certain matchups, and we have numerous ways to surprise-attack by removing the bridge itself (ulamog, world breaker, karn, nature's claim etc). I think being able to tutor for this card actually changes the answer significantly to the question "would we ever play this card". Normally the answer is emphatically no, but with new Karn, I can see a more reasonable argument for the card's inclusion, as a trump-card for certain scenarios (and again, it's fetchable and castable on turn three with tron).
Planar Bridge did nothing for a whole turn. new Karn does a lot on the turn he comes down.
that's not even mentioning what happens if we get all the way up to 8 or 9 mana on turn 4. Suddenly you can tutor for, and play batterskull or witchbane orb against key opponents, giving you crucial time to advance your boardstate and take over the game.
remember the reason we play Karn Liberated in the first place. Karn gives us time. it 'doffs' a land, setting an opponent back a turn (or occasionally more). why do we play sweepers? to give us time against decks which over-extend and want to end games quickly. nearly everything the deck does is to gain time as a resource against the opponent, so that we can start playing high-costed cards at a rate that an opponent isn't able to match in terms of resource expenditure and on-board effect.
new Karn does that. worth considering.
obviously i'm not saying it's a staple and we all need to rush out and buy copies, BUT, there's too much early theory-crafted dismissal of the card from people who haven't tested it yet, and I believe there's a good enough case to test the card seriously for competitive play. that's all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
drawn Karn Liberated? play it, minus and exile a land
drawn new karn? play it, fetch liquimetal coating, play it, turn one of their lands into a stony-silenced artifact in their upkeep.
Yeah, but then they just attack Karn and you're down a card and 6 mana for a useless Liquimetal Coating (until you find and cast a 2nd Creator). This line also doesn't put them down raw lands for Valakut, nor does it prevent Titan from just bouncing the land and reusing it. And Titan and Valakut are two of the only MUs where we want to take out lands as opposed to creatures or other problematic permanents (that GC's static generally can't deal with).
ensnaring bridge: alright go with me on a journey. This card is traditionally, in our current iterations of Tron a bad card. We have no way to fetch it up, it interferes with our creature threats and running one in the sideboard would be a wasted slot. However let's consider what would happen if we were suddenly able to tutor this card up in most games. would that change the profile of this card in terms of its usefulness? Sitting behind a wall for a couple of turns while establishing a dominant position through planeswalkers would be a powerful way to approach certain matchups, and we have numerous ways to surprise-attack by removing the bridge itself (ulamog, world breaker, karn, nature's claim etc). I think being able to tutor for this card actually changes the answer significantly to the question "would we ever play this card". Normally the answer is emphatically no, but with new Karn, I can see a more reasonable argument for the card's inclusion, as a trump-card for certain scenarios (and again, it's fetchable and castable on turn three with tron).
The reason we don’t run Ensnaring Bridge has very little to do with the fact that we can't tutor it or that it interferes with our creatures. It has everything to do with that we can't consistently empty our hand. Let's take our average T3 Tron hands (T1 land Map, T2 land crack Map T3 land or T1 land Star/Sphere, T2 land crack + Sylvan Scrying T3 land). In both of these lines, when we assemble T3 Tron, we have 6 cards in hand on the play, and 7 cards in hand on the draw. When we play Great Creator we go down to 5/6 cards. Then Karn grabs Bridge (+1) and we cast it (-1). That means we pass the turn with 5/6 cards in hand, and we're only "protected" from creatures with 6-7 power. Bridge won't even stop Gurmag Angler or a mid-sized Shadow in this scenario. The only threat that we reasonably stop here is Thing in the Ice. And it really doesn't get better next turn. You get to dump some number of Stars and/or Maps next turn, but Scrying still clogs up your hand with lands. You're also now put in a dilemma, because you can either not crack your Stars/Spheres/Maps/Relics and hope that your opponent can't deal with the Bridge (since you're essentially putting yourself down cards), or you can crack them hoping to draw threats, but have the huge risk of drawing cards you can't play or lands. And if you do want to play a threat, you're likely not going to have enough mana to start emptying your hand. There's a reason why Bridge is played in decks full of 0-1 cost artifacts that just sit on the battlefield (not to mention a lot of decks that play Bridge back it up with some number of Welding Jars to protect it). Even a lot of Prison/Lantern lists have started to move to running Bottled Cloister to deal with scenarios when they're stuck with 1-2 lands in hand. And before we get into the scenario of running Bridge + Cloister in our wishboard, Cloister is an extremely risky card. When prison decks fetch Cloister, they do it because they primarily want to get rid of their clunky hand, and they've already dumped all the cards they really care about (since they all cost 0-1 mana). Even if Cloister gets blown up, they're still generally fine with the trade, as it was like an expensive One with Nothing that put their opponent down a kill spell that could've gone at the Bridge. If someone pops our Cloister, it's absolutely devastating. Sure, we have a Bridge, but we probably just lost a hand with a decent mix of threats and lands/spells we care about. Unlike Prison, Tron really isn't a One with Nothing style deck. We also can't protect Cloister with Jars. Not to mention that Cloister's just a narrow card in general, and you're now reducing your SB for corner-case scenarios where your opponent doesn't just kill Karn. You have to remember that a good 80-90% of the time when we cast 7-mana Karn and pop -3, we're basically accepting him as "Exile target permanent. Gain 3-4 life." If your goal is Karn immediately -2, you have to basically accept him as "Wish an artifact. Gain 3-4 life." And unlike Karn, he doesn't have the use case of ticking him up to a massive 10 loyalty and practically forcing your opponent to have something like a Maelstrom Pulse, or ignore him and hope to race.
I can see the argument to playing him with an extremely limited wishboard like Lectrys was suggesting, running like 3-6 cards he can get (like Lattice, O-Stone, Ballista, Witchbane, Relic, Skite or something). This way you still have access to a 9-12 card sideboard for the relatively large number of games where Karn is just too slow. I still think it's too cute, but only time we'll tell.
One final point I'd like to make about "Karn wish for O-Stone" is that one of the major strengths of O-Stone is that it doesn't punish you for having T4 Tron (as is unfortunately often the case), or even missing Tron completely. "Karn wish for O-Stone" requires T3 Tron, and it "leaks" information about you having O-Stone on T4 (which means your opponent may play around it by not overextending or casting hand disruption). "Karn wish for O-Stone" is as good as an O-Stone in the best-case scenario, but in an average-case scenario it may or may not be.
The problem is that it's not strictly better than any of the cards currently in the deck, but new Ugin's a far more impactful card T3 than new Karn, and you don't have to get rid of half of your SB to use it.
EDIT: To clarify my latter statement, I don't think he'll be a mainstay because he doesn't help stabilize as much as any of our other 6-7 drops do, but unlike the new Karn, the new Ugin actually has immediate impact.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
I think new Ugin is better in Eldrazi Tron, which has a better time disrupting combo early and has a noticeably harder time hitting 7 mana than 6 mana.
New Ugin - although guaranteed to affect the board on the turn it‘s played - does not seem to do enough for my taste (in comparison to our other stuff at 6-8 cmc). Don‘t get me wrong, I don‘t think it‘s bad. New Karn on the other hand has built-in artifact hate and an easy way to close out the game. I am also not very fond of the all-in wishboard plan: I’d rather play 1-2 New Karns MB and 1 Mycosynth Lattice SB - not change too much, but enjoy the fact that no matter whether it‘s game 1, 2, 3 or how I board, I‘d always have access to my 75 and almost everything can be found off Ancient Stirrings. Sounds quite good to me.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
I think we can all attest that at times drawing a Ulamog or having one in your opening hand can be almost a dead draw at least in my opinion whereas the new Karn is always relevant as its only 4 CMC. Having access to your sideboard in game one can be huge, as ill plan on playing some one-off cards like Tormod's Crypt, gravediggers cage, etc which could free up some duplicate space in the sideboard.
The static ability on Karn is like having a stony silence in the main board which I think has the potential to get us free wins against affinity and the mirror.
The fact that new Karn can serve as a win con is the cherry on top IMO. Having a card that when it resolves can win the game when we have 10 mana is great but it's even better when it can do double duty.
I honestly think the sky is the limit with this card as it will give us the ability to be much more dynamic in game one and may end up freeing up some sideboard options
I would love to hear your guys opinion on my take of this card. Am I being too optimistic or is there any other people that think this is the nuts?
You nailed most of my thoughts. I actually go back and forth with cutting Ulamog from the mainboard because I hate having it in my opener so badly, same goes for O-Stone. New Karn being a win condition itself is nice,but I read it as 'you now have in hand whatever card you need right now'. I could not be more indifferent to the Lattice plan, I really couldn't, but this will let me take some of the cards I am not happy to see in every matchup but can't cut from the mainboard and have the best of both worlds. Not just general sideboard stuff either, it's like Eye of Ugin come back to us, because I can put Ulamog in the side and only have it when I want it. I may cut all or most of the creatures from the main and run them as 1-2 in the side, lower the curve a bit. I think people are a bit misguided with the Lattice plan, we don't need off the wall ways to win, we have the cards already for the best late game in the format, ones that don't rely on this new Karn staying in play. this is the thing to give us flexibility beyond our powerful but straightforward plan A. I absolutely love it.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
But it looks like I need to get more practice on this matchup, so I'd appreciate any pointers/experience you guys can share.
Also, it looks like a fellow Tron player won the GP, list on the link below.
https://www.channelfireball.com/grand-prix-sao-paulo-top-8-decklists/
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Yeah, I just ditched Scavenger Grounds for a "Blast Zone", and having removal on a land has been absolutely swell! While we may not have the room, I'm convinced there are some other decks that want more than 1 of this bad boy.
I would rather Wish with New Karn for a Crucible and use it a bunch of times than play multiples
The big draw with Blast Zone is we can actually tutor for it if we draw Scrying/Map.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
The wishboard is currently Mycosynth Lattice, Oblivion Stone, Walking Ballista, Witchbane Orb, Relic of Progenitus, and Spellskite. The first 3 were wished for the most often (yes, this includes Mycosynth against aggro once I've cleared the board). I switched wishboard Wurmcoil Engine to Ballista once I was too mana-strapped against Affinity, and Ballista has been so darn versatile (e.g. Karn GC can ETB, wish for and play Ballista on 8 mana, and then 2-counter Ballista can block a Burn dude and kill Eidolon of the Great Revel on their turn without triggering EotGR). Witchbane Orb (or Orbs of Warding) might be the best wish target against Burn because it dodges "burn Karn GC in response" (although they WILL burn Karn GC the next turn because they have no better place to put the burn spell). Spellskite is more of a flex slot wall that I board in against Bogles and Infect because that's the only way it'll do anything fast enough, but it's one of the 5(!!) wishboard targets that do something against Burn. Board it in against Burn, though.
Especially since I'm still testing Bond of Flourishing (it's semi-earning its keep so far), I've cut down on win cons and gone down to 2 maindeck Relic of Progenitus. 4 Karn Liberated are still too versatile to quit and 3 O. Stone are still dandy, and the rest of the haymakers are 2 Walking Ballista (shame the only way to make room for one more of this guy is to cut a flex slot or another win con), 2 Wurmcoil Engine (me dropping to 1 again is a distinct possibility, but I did ditch Conduit of Ruin for a reason), 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (I never completely believed in the guy, so he's always been only a 1-of for me), and 1 Newlamog (Karn GC primarily mass wiping permanents or mass hosing opposing lands gives me the confidence to go down to 1 big Eldrazi).
I'm not completely sure how many small hosers that buy time that we should put in the wishboard. Karn GC can wish for rocks 2 turns in a row against several combo decks (Living End, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Griselbrand combo variants, Bolas's Citadel combo variants, sometimes RG Valakut). The 4th(/3rd) Relic feels like it's taking up one of those slots alongside Spellskite, and I'm tempted to try something like Trinisphere, but I'm not quite sure I have the room. The small hoser wishboard section is also the last bastion for Crucible of Worlds, although Walking Ballista might be good enough against land hate.
In the meantime, Blast Zone has been blowing stuff up left, right, and center. The biggest kill so far is Thought-Knot Seer, and yes, I only needed 1 turn to sufficiently charge up Blast Zone.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
Against Eldrazi Tron, Karn GC looked for Oblivion Stone or Mycosynth Lattice most of the time. It's O. Stone if I'm behind on the board and Mycosynth if the board is clear or I can block all their stuff on the battlefield.
Against Burn...you got the details in my previous post. Karn GC usually wishes for some combination of Witchbane Orb, Walking Ballista, and Spellskite (the turn Karn GC ETB).
Against UR Phoenix, Karn GC looked for O. Stone most of the time and Mycosynth once the board was clear or all they had was Thing in the Ice. Karn GC is kinda lame against living Arclight Phoenix (your best way to eliminate them continuously is fat Walking Ballista), but if you hate them that much, there's always Perilous Vault or Wurmcoil Engine.
Against my Bolas's Citadel combo deck, Karn GC looks for Mycosynth like he close to always does against combo. Karn GC alone stops my combo deck from using my mana rock ramp profitably, which means that I expect similar good results from Karn GC alone against Ad Nauseam. UR Storm will be riskier, especially if they maindeck bounce or Bolt, so if I cannot play Mycosynth that turn, Karn GC may be better off wishing for Spellskite/Relic of Progenitus or considering Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst instead.
Against Affinity, Karn GC looked for O. Stone or Ballista most of the time, and he only got out Mycosynth once they were reduced to lands and noncreature permanents. His hoser doesn't tend to do that much against them because O. Stone is often the best wish target, but Affinity has some tough calls to make about whether they want to kill him before I wish for Ballista or they want to inflict some extra damage to my head.
It’s definitely a card to keep in mind for SB consolidation if the 1-card exile effect becomes more relevant in the future, though.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
But you're talking of a different deck here... If you go this route, you have to admit it's a very slow kill, that requires building around this interaction, and locking most of opponent's pressure, the time you get rid of his/her lands. This is for Whir Prison for example (and even Whir isn't the right shell for this), not for Tron...
I believe this Karn isn't for Tron unfortunately. Usually by turn 3, when we reach tron, we are quite often behind the clock, we want to empty the board and start deploying our stuff. This Karn does none of these.
Then the Lattice combo, well if a single creature is there -which is likely to be the case if you don't clean the board and play this Karn instead-, the combo doesn't work anymore. You ends up with Lattice in play, doing nothing useful.
Get rid of artifact lands against Affinity? It's cute when you're behind the clock, under pressure, to spend your mana and your turn killing lands rather than the 2/3 key artifacts pressuring you...
I was on the hipe for Planar Bridge, because I was thinking it could fill the role of Eye of Ugin, and even why not going 5 color PL with it, but I was wrong, the single turn lost cost me more games than the benefit of having constant threat after turn 4. This Karn looks exactly in the same spot.
Now the new Ugin, looks better already, but 1/2 of would be the maximum I guess, as the +1 isn't strong enough compare to what we have already. I rather prefer a Wurmcoil, which for me looks far better than this Ugin for 6 cmc slot. So i'm not sure it will fit...
And Blast Zone for me is the only real deal for Tron, as 1 of max, could help late game to transform tutor to usefull game plan... Atm we don't have much target for the late game, Sanctum of Ugin and Ghost Quarter are the only pieces of toolbox we have to recycle those tutors, this could fit in pretty well I guess.
so let's assume that in a given game, we are able to assemble tron 'on time'.
let's also assume that we need a sweeper (o-stone for example).
drawn the o-stone? play it, activate it on 4th turn.
drawn a new Karn? play it, minus, fetch 4th O-stone, play it, activate it on turn 4.
same net result, but allows you more virtual copies of o-stone in the deck.
alright let's imagine you need to take an opponent off a land next turn to stunt their growth and allow you to take over the game. Again, it's turn 3 and we've got 7 mana:
drawn Karn Liberated? play it, minus and exile a land
drawn new karn? play it, fetch liquimetal coating, play it, turn one of their lands into a stony-silenced artifact in their upkeep.
not 100% alignment here, but in many situations this will be net-result the same in terms of the effect on the outcome of the game. Coating can continue to lock down a land for as long as Karn remains on the battlefield (or another permanent). issues with this line are cards like Lightning Bolt, of course.
let's go further:
mirror match. not uncommon. a card that's been utilised in the past but never been a total staple is crucible of worlds. With new Karn, suddenly you're much more likely to be able to fetch up and cast this card, enabling the looping of ghost quarter or horizon canopy. As a singleton in the sideboard it wasn't always impressive, but as a reliable tutor target the efficacy is magnified. I can't foresee where we'd sit on this card in the fullness of time, but being able to just fetch it out and cast it on turn three against certain decks would prove useful I think.
even further:
ensnaring bridge: alright go with me on a journey. This card is traditionally, in our current iterations of Tron a bad card. We have no way to fetch it up, it interferes with our creature threats and running one in the sideboard would be a wasted slot. However let's consider what would happen if we were suddenly able to tutor this card up in most games. would that change the profile of this card in terms of its usefulness? Sitting behind a wall for a couple of turns while establishing a dominant position through planeswalkers would be a powerful way to approach certain matchups, and we have numerous ways to surprise-attack by removing the bridge itself (ulamog, world breaker, karn, nature's claim etc). I think being able to tutor for this card actually changes the answer significantly to the question "would we ever play this card". Normally the answer is emphatically no, but with new Karn, I can see a more reasonable argument for the card's inclusion, as a trump-card for certain scenarios (and again, it's fetchable and castable on turn three with tron).
Planar Bridge did nothing for a whole turn. new Karn does a lot on the turn he comes down.
that's not even mentioning what happens if we get all the way up to 8 or 9 mana on turn 4. Suddenly you can tutor for, and play batterskull or witchbane orb against key opponents, giving you crucial time to advance your boardstate and take over the game.
remember the reason we play Karn Liberated in the first place. Karn gives us time. it 'doffs' a land, setting an opponent back a turn (or occasionally more). why do we play sweepers? to give us time against decks which over-extend and want to end games quickly. nearly everything the deck does is to gain time as a resource against the opponent, so that we can start playing high-costed cards at a rate that an opponent isn't able to match in terms of resource expenditure and on-board effect.
new Karn does that. worth considering.
obviously i'm not saying it's a staple and we all need to rush out and buy copies, BUT, there's too much early theory-crafted dismissal of the card from people who haven't tested it yet, and I believe there's a good enough case to test the card seriously for competitive play. that's all.
I can see the argument to playing him with an extremely limited wishboard like Lectrys was suggesting, running like 3-6 cards he can get (like Lattice, O-Stone, Ballista, Witchbane, Relic, Skite or something). This way you still have access to a 9-12 card sideboard for the relatively large number of games where Karn is just too slow. I still think it's too cute, but only time we'll tell.
One final point I'd like to make about "Karn wish for O-Stone" is that one of the major strengths of O-Stone is that it doesn't punish you for having T4 Tron (as is unfortunately often the case), or even missing Tron completely. "Karn wish for O-Stone" requires T3 Tron, and it "leaks" information about you having O-Stone on T4 (which means your opponent may play around it by not overextending or casting hand disruption). "Karn wish for O-Stone" is as good as an O-Stone in the best-case scenario, but in an average-case scenario it may or may not be.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW