Didn't see the trample but still, if the opponent survives(they will), you're giving them 2 turns to kill you. Not worth the price tag of 9-ish cc
As someone who plays U and UW tron as well, I think you are really underestimating how powerful Mindslaver is, especially when it comes with a 13/13 body. Mindslaving is game breaker in good number of matchups, but even in matchups where its not, this gets the huge benefit of having a 13/13 flying trampler that can't really be answered aside from a wrath effect. Since Newrakul cant be responded with instants, you can rip away any sorcery speed answers on their turn. If you are playing Jund for example, and they have Lili on board and Pulse in hand, you can minus down the lili on themselves (not as useful if they are between 4-5 loyalty), and then pulse something that isn't emmy. I cant really think of that many other modern staple sorcery effects that can take out Emmy besides O-stone and Wrath/Verdict/DoJ. Anything else at Sorcery speed can pretty much be used on the opponent themselves. Sure there are more answers, but I don't think that there really are any even as close to as common as Path and Lili if we are pitting this up against Newlamog.
Another huge thing is that you can force them to attack into the emmy (or another creature if you have). Even though Newlamog can take out two permanents, Newrakul effectively takes out any creature for free that is less than 13 power and doesn't have deathtouch by forcing them to attack into her. Added bonus if you have a wurmcoil out too for more creature kills. Im also not even sure if you read the card correctly. They don't get two extra turns, they get one after the turn you stole from them. That turn should be left with a board that is missing a valuable creature, along with a disrupted hand that you have full information of.
I still have no idea if this is better than newlamog, but this card is definitely playable.
Maybe I'm missing something in this evaluation, but doesn't Ulamog give an opponent 2-3 turns to kill you?
Ulamog exiles 2 existing threat or render opponents unable to cast them, and the mill effect is very disruptive. Mindslaver's disruption depends solely on what they have in the board and in the hand. While it could potentially destroy the opponent, it's not a sure thing.
It all depends on the expected value, not just the variance. Ulamog always exiles two permanents, so its EV is two. Emrakul is going to result in the removal/exile/destruction of anywhere from 0 cards (on an opponent with, say, two counterspells, a Path, and five non-manland mana sources), to an entire board and all cards in an opponent's hand (on, say, an Affinity player with a topdecked Ravager or one in hand). That's a big range and you'd need to test the different scenarios to see just how devastating Emrakul can (or cannot) be.
I'd be happy if Emrakul's EV was 3 cards but with the possibility to whiff on 0-1.
Don't forget that because of the immunity to instants, your opponent will never get a chance to remove her before you control their turn.
This means you can attack a creature into her and use her as de-facto removal.
So not only do you get to trash their hand and cast interactive cards on themselves, you also get to straight up murder a creature by blocking with Emrakul during their "stolen" turn.
That puts Emrakul ahead of Ulamog in my book. Disruption AND removal? Yes please
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I see Newrakul more as a card for our U and UW Brothers and Sisters. Sure, "mindslaving" a turn is nice. But it is somewhat unreliable depending on the matchup (Against combo this Newrakul is a BEAST, but against aggro? Not so much imo). While Ulamog provides instant value as you cast it Newrakul is more a case of "Oh, you will take my turn? Guess i will bust out all my removal/burnspells now so you don't mess up my board"
For 11 Mana (I calculate with 11 Mana since Artifact and Sorcery are the 2 most likely cardtypes in our yards) it feels like that simply doesn't do enough. I may be wrong, but compared to Newlamog who comes down somewhat consistently on turn 4 this Newrakul seems not strong enough.
Maybe I'm missing something in this evaluation, but doesn't Ulamog give an opponent 2-3 turns to kill you?
Ulamog exiles 2 existing threat or render opponents unable to cast them, and the mill effect is very disruptive. Mindslaver's disruption depends solely on what they have in the board and in the hand. While it could potentially destroy the opponent, it's not a sure thing.
It all depends on the expected value, not just the variance. Ulamog always exiles two permanents, so its EV is two. Emrakul is going to result in the removal/exile/destruction of anywhere from 0 cards (on an opponent with, say, two counterspells, a Path, and five non-manland mana sources), to an entire board and all cards in an opponent's hand (on, say, an Affinity player with a topdecked Ravager or one in hand). That's a big range and you'd need to test the different scenarios to see just how devastating Emrakul can (or cannot) be.
I'd be happy if Emrakul's EV was 3 cards but with the possibility to whiff on 0-1.
i think the EV can be notably upped, ahead of a "pure" mindslaver effect, because of two aspects (which i already mentioned but not in reply to your own comment here):
1) your opponent won't ever get a chance to remove Emrakul before you control their turn, which leads directly into....
2) you can force your opponent to attack into emrakul and use her as creature removal.
so in addition to any shenanigans you can pull by stealing their turn, you also just get to "eat" a goyf or whatever (where there's one available). that's a small but significant upgrade over ye olde mindslaver in terms of raw effect, and I think it's an interaction that the community (so far, at this early juncture) seems to have missed. most focus has been on just their cards in hand/play and no mention of combat step.
i'm optimistic that there might be a place for this new emmy. it seems like it fulfils the criteria I want from a massive game-ending spell. ulamog is more like a scalpel. i could see ulamog being a sideboard card (it's not amazing in every matchup) and this being a maindeck scattergun win condition. or vice versa. they have different pros and cons. maybe you just run one of each maindeck and search up the one you need with sanctum of ugin.... seems fine to me!
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
maybe you just run one of each maindeck and search up the one you need with sanctum of ugin.... seems fine to me!
I like this idea!
Thoughts on how newrakul works against the burn match up? I've played a number of games against burn where exiling two permanents with ulamog did nothing cause they killed me on their next turn.
EDIT - in this same vein, seems like exiling two lands on turn 4 against the midrange 3 color decks can basically cripple them, so i like ulamog for that.
maybe you just run one of each maindeck and search up the one you need with sanctum of ugin.... seems fine to me!
I like this idea!
Thoughts on how newrakul works against the burn match up? I've played a number of games against burn where exiling two permanents with ulamog did nothing cause they killed me on their next turn.
EDIT - in this same vein, seems like exiling two lands on turn 4 against the midrange 3 color decks can basically cripple them, so i like ulamog for that.
Just theorycrafting here but with a burn deck you'll likely be looking at an opponent with 2 cards in hand (or less) when you cast this spell. In response they will most likely burn you in the face for whatever they can cast. In all likelihood you'll begin your "stolen" turn with 0 or 1 cards in hand, plus a topdeck.
Also bare in mind that you may not be able to cast this until turn 5. You'll most likely need to drop a wurmcoil first to stabilise.
Now let's take this through the permutations. They'll more than likely have creatures. One is automatically dead (attack into Emrakul, splat). So you've got some value there. If they have a second creature (not unlikely) you have a fairly decent chance to topdeck a removal spell from their deck in the form of a bolt or equivalent. That's decent enough as well.
Past that, you get to point any remaining burn at their face (all of this triggers eidolon which is hilarious) and render them dead to a single swing from Emrakul.
If you topdeck a land, it's not the end of the world. You still get to kill at least one of their creatures.
I'm going to say on balance, if you get to cast Emrakul against burn you'll be doing OK. At a bare minimum you're looking at swatting a swiftspear or something. At best, you win on the spot. The ceiling his higher than Ulamog by far, but the floor is slightly lower. Even the bare minimum is decent.
I've been wondering about this since I read Emrak (and I see you guys are onto it but I don't know if it's been discussed) but could the Delirium version I've seen floating around finally work? With Newrakul now in the picture, casting a Traverse the Ulvenwald with a Tron and a few types in the graveyard suddenly turns into a death threat since you can end up casting Newrakul for as little as 7 (ideal case but with the variety of type the deck already plays it can be pretty easy to achieve) although most of the time it will be 8-9. (Can't fetch it otherwise)
I'm thinking it might be better in Mono-Green or very lightly splashed for red since most Commune effects are in green.
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Current Decks:
MODERN: RG Shamanism RG WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
maybe you just run one of each maindeck and search up the one you need with sanctum of ugin.... seems fine to me!
I like this idea!
Thoughts on how newrakul works against the burn match up? I've played a number of games against burn where exiling two permanents with ulamog did nothing cause they killed me on their next turn.
EDIT - in this same vein, seems like exiling two lands on turn 4 against the midrange 3 color decks can basically cripple them, so i like ulamog for that.
Slightly tangential, but Kozilek, the Great Distortion is one of the best cards to pit against Burn. So is Thought-Knot Seer.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I'm not knocked out by this card. I look at this, and I love the flavor and the art, but the gimped Mindslaver ability doesn't give me the auto-include feeling that Newlamog did when it was spoiled. Sure, it could be very powerful against a lot of combo decks (and Burn) where we need points, but a lot of stars (your graveyard contents and ramp, opponent's hand and board states) have to align to allow that to happen. Typically, I could imagine dying with this in-hand a turn or two before it could do its thing in the matches where I'm really counting on it.
What decks would we be facing where, if we could swing a creature into our own Emmy TPE, we wouldn't rather just have Newlamog or World Breaker? I will pick up a pair to mess around with, and proxy test them to see if I'm wrong. My instincts tell me that Thought-Knot Seer is the better card for reliably combating most of the decks I'd have this new Emrakul in against. It seems better than the new Kozilek, but not enough to go nuts over.
I could see it happen where you run two eldrazis main (most likely 1 copy of each Ulamog) and 1 Newlizek and one Newrakul in the sideboard and use this as a toolbox option. Also double up to recover your Thought-Knots or Conduits that got PtE'ed if you play those.
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Didn't see the trample but still, if the opponent survives(they will), you're giving them 2 turns to kill you. Not worth the price tag of 9-ish cc
Maybe I'm missing something in this evaluation, but doesn't Ulamog give an opponent 2-3 turns to kill you?
In my experience of seeing people Mindslaved, and just thinking of most boardstates and hands in Modern, the expected value of a Mindslaver should generally be at least 2-3 removed cards. If so, Emrakul's on-cast EV should be roughly Ulamog's on-cast EV in many situations.
Time will tell, for sure this comparaison does not make sense, first because there is a chance you can't exactly choose, second because in some case you can have plays/interaction that ulamog would not be able to, so it's a mix to test...
I personally think ulamog will still be the star, emrakul seems too much as a dice roll...
Also, in some case (who said spellskite?) emrakul can be an instant speed win, while ulamog can't...
So, lets give it a proper test, it's too unsure right now.
Spellskite is only one of so many ways. Burn will fear Newrakul. Ad nauseam will weap if they can't cast their namesake card in response. Scapeshift will dread a namesake that somehow fails to find any land? So many decks are getting blown instantly by their namesake with Emrak dropping early enough. I think it will be at the very least a sideboard tech against some decks in builds that can support it.
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Very, very interesting. The big issue is that if you decide to move Eldrazi to the sideboard in favor of this, you can't grab this card off of an Ancient Stirrings, whereas you could have gotten that Eldrazi you removed.
Tried Emrakul, the Promised End for a bit against Dredge, Bring to Light Scapeshift, and Ad Nauseam.
...Yeah, Newmrakul sort of fell flat the one time I got to cast her against Dredge so far. Sure, I forced them to draw instead of Dredge, and I was even lucky enough to drain 2 Insolent Neonates, but they had too many flying blockers out, and they just had to EOT Stitchwing Skaab just before they got Slavered. Although I won that game, I'm not sure if either side misplayed.
...Of course Newmrakul's better against Scapeshift. I lived the dream once and Bring to Light into Scapeshift into one-sided Armageddon, and that completely wrecked Scapeshift even though they countered her. The second time, they didn't have Scapeshift or Bring to Light in hand, and they fetched a land just before the Slaver turn, so all I could do was waste a Search for Tomorrow, kill their guys with Anger of the Gods, and play an untapped shock land. Luckily, Newmrakul wasn't countered this time...
Newmrakul has been surprisingly awesome against Ad Nauseam so far. Casting Angel's Grace at the worst possible time is only the beginning. While killing them with their own Ad Nauseam is classic, of course they'll cast Ad Nauseam before the Slaver turn if they can...which has a fair chance of feeding them a Pact of Negation they can't pay for. The two Newmrakul wins I got so far were both Pact of Negation kills.
I need a lot more testing, of course, but Newmrakul seems even more promising than I previously thought right now.
As someone who plays U and UW tron as well, I think you are really underestimating how powerful Mindslaver is, especially when it comes with a 13/13 body. Mindslaving is game breaker in good number of matchups, but even in matchups where its not, this gets the huge benefit of having a 13/13 flying trampler that can't really be answered aside from a wrath effect. Since Newrakul cant be responded with instants, you can rip away any sorcery speed answers on their turn. If you are playing Jund for example, and they have Lili on board and Pulse in hand, you can minus down the lili on themselves (not as useful if they are between 4-5 loyalty), and then pulse something that isn't emmy. I cant really think of that many other modern staple sorcery effects that can take out Emmy besides O-stone and Wrath/Verdict/DoJ. Anything else at Sorcery speed can pretty much be used on the opponent themselves. Sure there are more answers, but I don't think that there really are any even as close to as common as Path and Lili if we are pitting this up against Newlamog.
Another huge thing is that you can force them to attack into the emmy (or another creature if you have). Even though Newlamog can take out two permanents, Newrakul effectively takes out any creature for free that is less than 13 power and doesn't have deathtouch by forcing them to attack into her. Added bonus if you have a wurmcoil out too for more creature kills. Im also not even sure if you read the card correctly. They don't get two extra turns, they get one after the turn you stole from them. That turn should be left with a board that is missing a valuable creature, along with a disrupted hand that you have full information of.
I still have no idea if this is better than newlamog, but this card is definitely playable.
It all depends on the expected value, not just the variance. Ulamog always exiles two permanents, so its EV is two. Emrakul is going to result in the removal/exile/destruction of anywhere from 0 cards (on an opponent with, say, two counterspells, a Path, and five non-manland mana sources), to an entire board and all cards in an opponent's hand (on, say, an Affinity player with a topdecked Ravager or one in hand). That's a big range and you'd need to test the different scenarios to see just how devastating Emrakul can (or cannot) be.
I'd be happy if Emrakul's EV was 3 cards but with the possibility to whiff on 0-1.
This means you can attack a creature into her and use her as de-facto removal.
So not only do you get to trash their hand and cast interactive cards on themselves, you also get to straight up murder a creature by blocking with Emrakul during their "stolen" turn.
That puts Emrakul ahead of Ulamog in my book. Disruption AND removal? Yes please
For 11 Mana (I calculate with 11 Mana since Artifact and Sorcery are the 2 most likely cardtypes in our yards) it feels like that simply doesn't do enough. I may be wrong, but compared to Newlamog who comes down somewhat consistently on turn 4 this Newrakul seems not strong enough.
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
i think the EV can be notably upped, ahead of a "pure" mindslaver effect, because of two aspects (which i already mentioned but not in reply to your own comment here):
1) your opponent won't ever get a chance to remove Emrakul before you control their turn, which leads directly into....
2) you can force your opponent to attack into emrakul and use her as creature removal.
so in addition to any shenanigans you can pull by stealing their turn, you also just get to "eat" a goyf or whatever (where there's one available). that's a small but significant upgrade over ye olde mindslaver in terms of raw effect, and I think it's an interaction that the community (so far, at this early juncture) seems to have missed. most focus has been on just their cards in hand/play and no mention of combat step.
i'm optimistic that there might be a place for this new emmy. it seems like it fulfils the criteria I want from a massive game-ending spell. ulamog is more like a scalpel. i could see ulamog being a sideboard card (it's not amazing in every matchup) and this being a maindeck scattergun win condition. or vice versa. they have different pros and cons. maybe you just run one of each maindeck and search up the one you need with sanctum of ugin.... seems fine to me!
I like this idea!
Thoughts on how newrakul works against the burn match up? I've played a number of games against burn where exiling two permanents with ulamog did nothing cause they killed me on their next turn.
EDIT - in this same vein, seems like exiling two lands on turn 4 against the midrange 3 color decks can basically cripple them, so i like ulamog for that.
Just theorycrafting here but with a burn deck you'll likely be looking at an opponent with 2 cards in hand (or less) when you cast this spell. In response they will most likely burn you in the face for whatever they can cast. In all likelihood you'll begin your "stolen" turn with 0 or 1 cards in hand, plus a topdeck.
Also bare in mind that you may not be able to cast this until turn 5. You'll most likely need to drop a wurmcoil first to stabilise.
Now let's take this through the permutations. They'll more than likely have creatures. One is automatically dead (attack into Emrakul, splat). So you've got some value there. If they have a second creature (not unlikely) you have a fairly decent chance to topdeck a removal spell from their deck in the form of a bolt or equivalent. That's decent enough as well.
Past that, you get to point any remaining burn at their face (all of this triggers eidolon which is hilarious) and render them dead to a single swing from Emrakul.
If you topdeck a land, it's not the end of the world. You still get to kill at least one of their creatures.
I'm going to say on balance, if you get to cast Emrakul against burn you'll be doing OK. At a bare minimum you're looking at swatting a swiftspear or something. At best, you win on the spot. The ceiling his higher than Ulamog by far, but the floor is slightly lower. Even the bare minimum is decent.
I'm thinking it might be better in Mono-Green or very lightly splashed for red since most Commune effects are in green.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Slightly tangential, but Kozilek, the Great Distortion is one of the best cards to pit against Burn. So is Thought-Knot Seer.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
What decks would we be facing where, if we could swing a creature into our own Emmy TPE, we wouldn't rather just have Newlamog or World Breaker? I will pick up a pair to mess around with, and proxy test them to see if I'm wrong. My instincts tell me that Thought-Knot Seer is the better card for reliably combating most of the decks I'd have this new Emrakul in against. It seems better than the new Kozilek, but not enough to go nuts over.
do we... run yav coasts now?
I could see it happen where you run two eldrazis main (most likely 1 copy of each Ulamog) and 1 Newlizek and one Newrakul in the sideboard and use this as a toolbox option. Also double up to recover your Thought-Knots or Conduits that got PtE'ed if you play those.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Spellskite is only one of so many ways. Burn will fear Newrakul. Ad nauseam will weap if they can't cast their namesake card in response. Scapeshift will dread a namesake that somehow fails to find any land? So many decks are getting blown instantly by their namesake with Emrak dropping early enough. I think it will be at the very least a sideboard tech against some decks in builds that can support it.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Very, very interesting. The big issue is that if you decide to move Eldrazi to the sideboard in favor of this, you can't grab this card off of an Ancient Stirrings, whereas you could have gotten that Eldrazi you removed.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
...Yeah, Newmrakul sort of fell flat the one time I got to cast her against Dredge so far. Sure, I forced them to draw instead of Dredge, and I was even lucky enough to drain 2 Insolent Neonates, but they had too many flying blockers out, and they just had to EOT Stitchwing Skaab just before they got Slavered. Although I won that game, I'm not sure if either side misplayed.
...Of course Newmrakul's better against Scapeshift. I lived the dream once and Bring to Light into Scapeshift into one-sided Armageddon, and that completely wrecked Scapeshift even though they countered her. The second time, they didn't have Scapeshift or Bring to Light in hand, and they fetched a land just before the Slaver turn, so all I could do was waste a Search for Tomorrow, kill their guys with Anger of the Gods, and play an untapped shock land. Luckily, Newmrakul wasn't countered this time...
Newmrakul has been surprisingly awesome against Ad Nauseam so far. Casting Angel's Grace at the worst possible time is only the beginning. While killing them with their own Ad Nauseam is classic, of course they'll cast Ad Nauseam before the Slaver turn if they can...which has a fair chance of feeding them a Pact of Negation they can't pay for. The two Newmrakul wins I got so far were both Pact of Negation kills.
I need a lot more testing, of course, but Newmrakul seems even more promising than I previously thought right now.