Hey purkle I've also converted to rg tron following a brief dabble in eldrazitron. The issue with TKS in tron is that it is always a turn 3-turn 4 threat since there aren't fast mana enablers like temple, ssg or gemstone caverns. On turn 3, we are able to cast wurmcoil engine or thragtusk (with an egg)- which are lightyears better than tks in the burn matchup. For all other matchups, you can't beat turn 3 Karn. Basically without temple- tks doesnt measure up to traditional tron threats.
i agree with what you've said, but i find myself wanting to side out up to 9 cards from the maindeck in order to slim and trim down to something that I can actually cast before the burn player wins.
my point is one of increased "useful card" density, rather than replacing the cards which already excel (like wurmcoil).
i'm imagining sideboarding would look a bit like this against burn:
-2 Ulamog
-1 Ugin (i'm only running 1 maindeck)
-2 worldbreaker
-4 oblivion stone
as added value, I really like the addition of TKS from the point of view of providing a combined package of threat/disruption against controlling decks. sometimes slamming karn on turn 3 won't stop your combo-playing opponent from going off, and you need a piece of targeted discard. who knows, it's just an idea.... I just noticed a correlation between games I drew TKS against burn, and games i won against burn. card's good.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Just one thing for those who play feed the clan and/or Life from the Loam. What do you think about: Pulse of Murasa for sideboard?
I find it quite useful against burn go get back a Thragtusk or a Wurmcoil. Or useful against ghost quarter as you get the green due to the ghost quarter.
Reporting back on playtesting with different G/R producing lands. I've tried Tendo Ice Bridge, Gemstone Mine and Grove of the Burnwillows. I haven't tried the obvious Karplasan Forest. I have tried using only basic mountains and forests, for completeness. TL:DR Grove > Mine > Bridge > Basic. Unsurprising, of course.
Concretely, I experienced at least 1 loss in 10 games due to Bridge that would not have happened with Grove. Typically when I couldn't find R for a sweeper, or G for more than one tutor. In similar terms, Mine felt like 1 loss in 20 games that playing Grove would have avoided. Through to losing access to a point of mana and having to wait a turn to cast a hail-mary. For both Mine and Bridge I experienced awkwardness that I played around in at least 3 in 10 games... Bridge more often than Mine. In theory, Mine could allow replacing our 3-4 red spells with another colour. For example, playing Condemn instead of Lightning Bolt. The upside includes more sideboard options, and the dream of Condemn on Wurmcoil in response to Path during the attack phase. The downside is forgoing interaction with planeswalkers, which decks playing the red sweepers don't have anyway.
Can anyone speak about Karplasan Forest? I saw it in one list that did well in a competitive league, and at a guess it will inflict 2 damage over a game. By the rule of fire that yields a one card advantage to your opponent. By comparison - due to Tron's victory conditions - giving life imposes nearly no cost. It could result in taking an extra turn to kill an opponent, but I haven't seen a clear example of that happening.
As these threads are about success and not budget, Grove of the Burnwillows seems like the best card to play. But maybe a card exists that Mine can enable?
Against what type of deck did you lost? If it was against Burn / infect / hyper aggro it was just "normal". If it was against jund or deck like this you just didn't have luck!
Jeskai Nahiri, Temur Control, GR Tron, Infect.
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Modern: GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
how do people feel about running a playset of thought-knot seer in the sideboard as anti-burn and anti-combo tech?
The thing about TKS is that you need to specifically tune your manabase for it (i.e. play 3-4 Eldrazi Temple). TKS has to come down on T2 - playing it on T3 feels wasteful for Tron.
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Modern: GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
In theory, Mine could allow replacing our 3-4 red spells with another colour. For example, playing Condemn instead of Lightning Bolt. The upside includes more sideboard options, and the dream of Condemn on Wurmcoil in response to Path during the attack phase.
...
But maybe a card exists that Mine can enable?
I am with you on this one! Since Gemstone Mine is almost as good as the Grove that people play it as the budget Grove, I feel like we really should be taking advantage of opening up the colors, especially since the eggs crack for any color as well. Path to Exile, Condemn, Terminate, Surgical Extraction, Apostle's Blessing
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Modern: GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
In theory, Mine could allow replacing our 3-4 red spells with another colour. For example, playing Condemn instead of Lightning Bolt. The upside includes more sideboard options, and the dream of Condemn on Wurmcoil in response to Path during the attack phase.
...
But maybe a card exists that Mine can enable?
I am with you on this one! Since Gemstone Mine is almost as good as the Grove that people play it as the budget Grove, I feel like we really should be taking advantage of opening up the colors, especially since the eggs crack for any color as well. Path to Exile, Condemn, Terminate, Surgical Extraction, Apostle's Blessing
Exactly. And I'm thinking of this very much from the angle of power rather than budget (which should be discussed elsewhere). GR Tron is what it is because of the consistency green mana brings to getting Urza's lands online. But red seems optional to me. Principally it offers sweepers or versatile removal via Bolt. Is it possible to do better?
In theory, Mine could allow replacing our 3-4 red spells with another colour. For example, playing Condemn instead of Lightning Bolt. The upside includes more sideboard options, and the dream of Condemn on Wurmcoil in response to Path during the attack phase.
...
But maybe a card exists that Mine can enable?
I am with you on this one! Since Gemstone Mine is almost as good as the Grove that people play it as the budget Grove, I feel like we really should be taking advantage of opening up the colors, especially since the eggs crack for any color as well. Path to Exile, Condemn, Terminate, Surgical Extraction, Apostle's Blessing
Exactly. And I'm thinking of this very much from the angle of power rather than budget (which should be discussed elsewhere). GR Tron is what it is because of the consistency green mana brings to getting Urza's lands online. But red seems optional to me. Principally it offers sweepers or versatile removal via Bolt. Is it possible to do better?
Okay, so (after a dozen games) I think Condemn is bad. But Holy Day and Duress are reasonable. I'm still running red sweepers in the main deck. Yet can access those in the 'board.
In theory, Mine could allow replacing our 3-4 red spells with another colour. For example, playing Condemn instead of Lightning Bolt. The upside includes more sideboard options, and the dream of Condemn on Wurmcoil in response to Path during the attack phase.
...
But maybe a card exists that Mine can enable?
I am with you on this one! Since Gemstone Mine is almost as good as the Grove that people play it as the budget Grove, I feel like we really should be taking advantage of opening up the colors, especially since the eggs crack for any color as well. Path to Exile, Condemn, Terminate, Surgical Extraction, Apostle's Blessing
Exactly. And I'm thinking of this very much from the angle of power rather than budget (which should be discussed elsewhere). GR Tron is what it is because of the consistency green mana brings to getting Urza's lands online. But red seems optional to me. Principally it offers sweepers or versatile removal via Bolt. Is it possible to do better?
Okay, so (after a dozen games) I think Condemn is bad. But Holy Day and Duress are reasonable. I'm still running red sweepers in the main deck. Yet can access those in the 'board.
Thank you guys for all of your due diligence regarding the playtesting of Gemstone Mine! Over the years I have dabbled with a couple of sideboard cards, mostly in W/B.
Come on, people. How hard is it to edit a single post instead of creating five within an hour?
Joe Lossett's lists have been taken to high levels by skilled players multiple times. Joe himself has made top eight at major events twice in as many months. So instead of calling his list bad, how about you either learn to play it properly, or adjust it according to your own playstyle and meta? Just ridiculous.
Not of This World is a parlor trick. It's cute, not powerful. There's a reason no competitive lists run it; you'd much rather have another threat than a corner-case method of defending one. Testing things out, or even running through a course in your mind, is much better than thought-vomiting random junk onto a competitive forum. SBurani has the right idea; Spellskite does pretty much the same job, but so much more against so many decks.
SBurani is also dead on regarding Ancient Stirrings; you are making a mistake if you're ever sideboarding it out. You can't say that of many cards, but it's nearly as essential to this deck's success as the Urza Lands themselves.
Any discussion of what GR-producing lands to use instead of Grove is budget discussion. Any discussion of those lands in GW, GB, or GU variants should be in terms of the version of the deck you're tuning, not which ones to use hypothetically. No list = not competitive discussion.
Thought-Knot Seer is still a very capable card against aggro and combo, even when it isn't coming down on turn two. Not playing Eldrazi Temple in a deck doesn't suddenly invalidate the strengths TKS brings to the table. Now of course, more dedicated Eldrazi decks use the card with more brutal efficiency, but Tron's ability to have seven mana on turn three allows you to play TKS and back it up in several ways. We're not removing cards like Karn for it, so of course if you can cast that first, most of the time that's the correct play.
TKS can draw removal and counters (it's especially effective against Mana Leak), and allow you to also use about half of your deck on the same turn. Fetch another land, cast a Clasm (or Feed the Clan out of the board, which breaks the Burn match in half)...and that's just the start. If you had your turn three Karn dream, turn four can allow you to drop two TKS back to back, or even TKS and Wurmcoil at the same time. It's good against Burn, Zoo, any number of combo decks, and traditional control, and it even does work in the mirror match.
If you draw it outside of the early turns, being a 4/4 for four with a drawback if it dies isn't the best thing to be doing. In midrange-heavy metas (where we're usually excelling anyway), TKS is typically better sidelined. It is important to note, however, that any time your opponent is holding extra copies of cards (planeswalkers, or nonland permanents in general if you're sitting with O-Stone ready to crack) that TKS can still have plenty to rip outside of the first few turns.
Lastly, TKS is a solid choice if you anticipate more land destruction/disruption (though watch out for Blood Moon, as we can't produce colorless at all with one on the table). TKS and Sea Gate Wreckage are great back-foot cards that allow you to stay in games you would have been shut out of otherwise, but can still pressure well when you're trying to pull ahead. I know more people are going with lists closer to what Joe is running, but my list has served me very well overall for all the reasons I've mentioned. Twice at the Indianapolis Open I mulled to four and won, and it was almost completely thanks to SGW and TKS (and some serious luck).
So even though TKS won't be coming down on turn two for us, it can still do some pretty amazing things and shore up some weaknesses we have. If your meta is heavy with Burn, fast combo, or land destruction, you should definitely consider playing a few.
Any discussion of what GR-producing lands to use instead of Grove is budget discussion. Any discussion of those lands in GW, GB, or GU variants should be in terms of the version of the deck you're tuning, not which ones to use hypothetically.
I think you are right that Karplasan Forest vs Grove of the Burnwillows is a budget discussion. But Gemstone Mine vs Groves is not, because Mine changes GR to Gx. And that belong in this thread because fundamentally "GR Tron" is Green Tron. Everyone agrees what the 8 green cards are, and that they are essential: those cards deliver Green Tron's powerful consistency. No one agrees on the red cards. Should they be Pyroclasm? Firespout? Lightning Bolt? Kozilek's Return? The off-colour in Green Tron deserves robust debate.
No list = not competitive discussion.
I want to respond to that by giving the core decklist, that no one disputes.
Many are playing 2 Spellskite and 2 Wurmcoil Engine but not all: some are playing Thought-Knot Seer. (It's possible I am overstating agreement on World Breaker FTM.) Likely we have 45 known cards: still not much more than 2/3rds of the deck. There are zero red cards in that group. So are we sure we are playing GR Tron? Or can this deck be more winning by looking frankly at the cards and calling it what it is - Gx Tron?
TKS can draw removal and counters (it's especially effective against Mana Leak), and allow you to also use about half of your deck on the same turn. Fetch another land, cast a Clasm (or Feed the Clan out of the board, which breaks the Burn match in half)...and that's just the start. If you had your turn three Karn dream, turn four can allow you to drop two TKS back to back, or even TKS and Wurmcoil at the same time. It's good against Burn, Zoo, any number of combo decks, and traditional control, and it even does work in the mirror match.
1) Huh, what? Yes, TKS is an outstanding card, however it is VERY build specific?
2) How is Thought-Knot Seer effective against Mana Leak?
3) "Half of your deck?" - What does that mean? I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm searching for clarification.
Regarding, Gemstone Mine, I'll concede that it has been a pet card of mine, and in my Tron deck for years. However, just because something is cheaper, doesn't make it a budget choice. Further, today's janky card inclusion is tomorrow's secret tech - just ask Joe Lossett...
I have always used the Mines to diversify my SB choices, BUT I do think that vonklaude brings up an interesting debate regarding the decks core identity - whether Gr Tron versus Gx Tron. Though I'm not quite certain that reasonable 'off-color' card choices are available at the moment, but they should be something that we need to keep an eye out for.
Just one thing for those who play feed the clan and/or Life from the Loam. What do you think about: Pulse of Murasa for sideboard?
I find it quite useful against burn go get back a Thragtusk or a Wurmcoil. Or useful against ghost quarter as you get the green due to the ghost quarter.
Has anyone tried it before?
I think feed and life are fine sideboard cards. I'm not convinced about pulse though. Because you have to have a land or creature in the yard to cast it, most of the time you will be targeting your opponents fetches to gain 6 life. There is a lot potential value in the card, but against a deck like burn you are going to need he payoff sooner than pulse allows.
"Gx Tron" has only ever been decently competitive as GR, with a few specialists doing good work with GW. If you're talking about a Gx build, you need to list more than the core cards; those other inclusions are what would make a deck competitively distinct (or even a case for one, which hasn't even been done here). Saying you're covering all of the bases just in case is basically riding coat tails without a fleshed-out, tested list that has done at least something in testing. SBurani, for example, not only championed GW lists and options, but has tested it thoroughly and cashed with it repeatedly.
What has happened here? No talk of any full list, just a Gx primer review with a rider for a hypothetical variant that does not exist in any competitive capacity. At least if you want to give some merit to your argument, tune it with GW in mind; not only is that the only non-red multicolor variant of this deck with competitive success, but there are also good players here that could chime in with quality feedback.
I respect that you guys are wanting to find the best lands for what you're hopefully looking to do soon, but please go about it the right way. Everything else in this matter, without a developed test list at the very least, should be relegated to the Deck Creation forum, or a single thread on the main Modern page.
TKS can draw removal and counters (it's especially effective against Mana Leak), and allow you to also use about half of your deck on the same turn. Fetch another land, cast a Clasm (or Feed the Clan out of the board, which breaks the Burn match in half)...and that's just the start. If you had your turn three Karn dream, turn four can allow you to drop two TKS back to back, or even TKS and Wurmcoil at the same time. It's good against Burn, Zoo, any number of combo decks, and traditional control, and it even does work in the mirror match.
1) Huh, what? Yes, TKS is an outstanding card, however it is VERY build specific?
2) How is Thought-Knot Seer effective against Mana Leak?
3) "Half of your deck?" - What does that mean? I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm searching for clarification.
1. Are you asking me, or are you trying to tell me something here? I outlined in the first post on this page (including the last sentence you quoted) exactly where, and for what reasons, I like TKS. As far as being build specific, I would rule it out in metas with fewer of the archetypes that I mentioned, or in GR variants that tend to rely on Kozilek's Return.
2. To quote myself, from the very post you referenced:
"Tron's ability to have seven mana on turn three allows you to play TKS and back it up in several ways."
Four mana to cast TKS plus three mana to pay for Mana Leak adds up to the seven mana you'd have from turn three Tron. At the Indy Open, I was able to rip an Emrakul on turn three against Jeskai/Nahiri Control through a Mana Leak. From eight mana on, it's solid against Remand as well.
3. To once again quote myself from the aforementioned post:
"Fetch another land, cast a Clasm (or Feed the Clan out of the board, which breaks the Burn match in half)...and that's just the start."
Here is a list from a post I made a few months ago that addresses both 2 and 3, in terms of what else we can do with turn three Tron and TKS:
-Fetch with Expedition Map
-Fetch with Egg/Scrying
-Drop O-Stone
-Drop Egg/crack to Pyroclasm
-Drop Egg/Skite
-Pay for Mana Leak
And those aren't exhaustive; Egg to Feed the Clan, Egg to Egg to Ancient Stirrings, and any number of things with Relic of Progenitus/Pithing Needle/Warping Wail/Grafdigger's Cage...we have options for days.
Regarding, Gemstone Mine, I'll concede that it has been a pet card of mine, and in my Tron deck for years. However, just because something is cheaper, doesn't make it a budget choice. Further, today's janky card inclusion is tomorrow's secret tech - just ask Joe Lossett...
If we're talking about GR Tron, then yes, being cheaper for a land other than Grove is definitely a budget choice. If not, please go into more detail with the Gx variant you're using so we can see how it's all coming together and working for you.
Joe Lossett is a great tester who uses a very scientific approach to developing his deck. He's very good at not being too attached to any cards, and he's able to size up an expected meta to find the right choices for him, then test them out at length. His "secret tech" is usually stuff that was at least mentioned here a time or two; he just reached the conclusion that those cards would give him an edge in matches we tend to be dogs in, and ran with it until he brewed his optimal list. Nowhere in this pattern are there any "janky card inclusions."
I have always used the Mines to diversify my SB choices, BUT I do think that vonklaude brings up an interesting debate regarding the decks core identity - whether Gr Tron versus Gx Tron. Though I'm not quite certain that reasonable 'off-color' card choices are available at the moment, but they should be something that we need to keep an eye out for.
Would love to see a truly competitive list come out that's not GR, GW, or just G. What do you guys have in mind?
Hey. I happened by and thought I would chime in. I think vonklaude is dead on with his illustration of the core of the deck. Actually I think he went to far, Ugin should probably be in the secondary box of cards that "few would dispute," because it was not widely played during the eldrazi era. I like the approach, mostly because it allows you to realize that red isn't always necessary. During the eldrazi season none of the red cards were good, and Tron didn't fare as well as I think it should have. With Path to Exile alongside full sets of Wurmcoil and Oblivion Stone, I think the deck was in a good spot. After eldrazi went away I still tried out Gw and monoG alongside Gr. I don't know the best build, but am sure it once again includes red. Just because the red cards are good again now though, doesn't mean they always will be.
For the budget guys who are talking about alternatives to Grove - during Gw Tron, I thought 3 Razorverge Thicket and one Brushland was okay. It's not good, but it was tolerable. The GR equivalents would seemingly work the same. I can't compare that to Gemstone Mines since I never tried them.
Based on the questions I got asked during the Tron events, the most common problem people are having is with sideboarding. That wasn't surprising. I think mulliganing and sideboarding with the deck are pretty tough. Fortunately those are things you can practice without an opponent. Several of you guys probably know the deck better than I do, but for those that are unsure of themselves - my advice on mulligans is that you should do it more. However much you mulligan, it's probably not enough It took me a while to figure it out because it's the opposite of the way I approach Miracles, but once I started going to 6 and 5 more often, I started winning more. As for sideboarding, just practice. And by that I mean look at your cards and see what you would do against different things. One guy came up to me and wanted help against burn. I asked him to show me his boarding, and he gave me the 9 cards he was bringing in, and then struggled to find 5 he wanted to cut. Don't be that guy.
I really like playing this deck and will probably play it at the next Modern event I go to. That's obvious I guess. It's not like I would put it down after steamrolling my way back onto the Pro Tour with it.
I don't know if this reply added much to the discussion, but I wanted to say something since I was here. Have fun guys.
Thank you for the reply and explaination. For whatever reason, my brain was not reading the original post in the same way.
Concerning my decklist: the only competitive result I can boast with my current build of the deck (listed in detail a few pages back) is a TCGPlayer Modern States Top 8, where I was knocked out of contention by an Infect player; had I been playing 4x Bolts, history may have been different. GRANTED, I understand that a "States" metagame does not equate to a Grand Prix environment.
My original decklist, which includes the Mines, is on page #76 of this thread.
Further, on the premise of "budget" cards. The price of a card only reflects a low supply, compared to a high demand. If you add in the multitudes of players who have migrated from X-deck to Gx Tron <netdeck> - and by default buy out Groves online - the price of the card will increase. Forgive me if the notion of cost doesn't directly correlate to something being the best.
And to use your own words, "So instead of calling his [Lossett] list bad, how about you either learn to play it properly, or adjust it according to your own playstyle and meta? Just ridiculous." My card choices are reflective of my own playstyle and I have had moderate success with those card choices - I fully understand the limitations of said choices and adjust accordingly. Do I have an expectation that the community will take my word as gospel? Hell, no... The expectation I do have, however, is that the community will use strict empirical methodology to vet, either in a positive or negative way, the card choice recommendations from its members.
After all, I have as many Grand Prix wins and Pro Tour Invitation notches on my belt as you do...
I believe that we/us/everyone are conflating the meanings of a few choice words into one: budget. As an older fella, to me, budget refers to an intentional cap on spending. I think the word we/us/everyone should be using regarding card choices is, viable or viability. The viability of something does not refer to its absoluteness. It refers to its 'life' within certain parameters. For example, Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace help to mitigate similar problems as sideboard cards, though only one is VIABLE as a card choice for/against certain decks.
i agree with what you've said, but i find myself wanting to side out up to 9 cards from the maindeck in order to slim and trim down to something that I can actually cast before the burn player wins.
my point is one of increased "useful card" density, rather than replacing the cards which already excel (like wurmcoil).
i'm imagining sideboarding would look a bit like this against burn:
-2 Ulamog
-1 Ugin (i'm only running 1 maindeck)
-2 worldbreaker
-4 oblivion stone
+1 wurmcoil engine
+3 nature's claim
+4 thought-knot seer
+1 spellskite
as added value, I really like the addition of TKS from the point of view of providing a combined package of threat/disruption against controlling decks. sometimes slamming karn on turn 3 won't stop your combo-playing opponent from going off, and you need a piece of targeted discard. who knows, it's just an idea.... I just noticed a correlation between games I drew TKS against burn, and games i won against burn. card's good.
I find it quite useful against burn go get back a Thragtusk or a Wurmcoil. Or useful against ghost quarter as you get the green due to the ghost quarter.
Has anyone tried it before?
Concretely, I experienced at least 1 loss in 10 games due to Bridge that would not have happened with Grove. Typically when I couldn't find R for a sweeper, or G for more than one tutor. In similar terms, Mine felt like 1 loss in 20 games that playing Grove would have avoided. Through to losing access to a point of mana and having to wait a turn to cast a hail-mary. For both Mine and Bridge I experienced awkwardness that I played around in at least 3 in 10 games... Bridge more often than Mine. In theory, Mine could allow replacing our 3-4 red spells with another colour. For example, playing Condemn instead of Lightning Bolt. The upside includes more sideboard options, and the dream of Condemn on Wurmcoil in response to Path during the attack phase. The downside is forgoing interaction with planeswalkers, which decks playing the red sweepers don't have anyway.
Can anyone speak about Karplasan Forest? I saw it in one list that did well in a competitive league, and at a guess it will inflict 2 damage over a game. By the rule of fire that yields a one card advantage to your opponent. By comparison - due to Tron's victory conditions - giving life imposes nearly no cost. It could result in taking an extra turn to kill an opponent, but I haven't seen a clear example of that happening.
As these threads are about success and not budget, Grove of the Burnwillows seems like the best card to play. But maybe a card exists that Mine can enable?
Thanks so much! That's a very comprehensive list you've compiled, I think that should get added to the OP.
Let's see what else.. Hatebears, U-Tron, Death and Taxes...
GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard
URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
Sure, but I was referring to that build specifically.
Jeskai Nahiri, Temur Control, GR Tron, Infect.
GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard
URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
The thing about TKS is that you need to specifically tune your manabase for it (i.e. play 3-4 Eldrazi Temple). TKS has to come down on T2 - playing it on T3 feels wasteful for Tron.
GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard
URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
I am with you on this one! Since Gemstone Mine is almost as good as the Grove that people play it as the budget Grove, I feel like we really should be taking advantage of opening up the colors, especially since the eggs crack for any color as well. Path to Exile, Condemn, Terminate, Surgical Extraction, Apostle's Blessing
GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard
URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
GR Tron - hardcasting Emrakuls and playing Forest in the sideboard
URB Grixis Delver - Bolt-Snap-Bolt
Thank you guys for all of your due diligence regarding the playtesting of Gemstone Mine! Over the years I have dabbled with a couple of sideboard cards, mostly in W/B.
White
Path to Exile - high toughness creatures
Blind Obedience - fast aggro/Through the Breach
Rest in Peace - graveyard synergies
Black
Thoughtseize - combo
Dismember - high toughness creatures
Surgical Extraction - combo/Fulminator Mage
Blue
Stubborn Denial - combo/Crumble to Dust
Gold
Slaughter Games - combo
Land
Academy Ruins - anti-control
Thanks again guys for helping me to think outside the box...
My "Powered Peasant" 360 Cube : http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/13235
Spellskite
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
Joe Lossett's lists have been taken to high levels by skilled players multiple times. Joe himself has made top eight at major events twice in as many months. So instead of calling his list bad, how about you either learn to play it properly, or adjust it according to your own playstyle and meta? Just ridiculous.
Not of This World is a parlor trick. It's cute, not powerful. There's a reason no competitive lists run it; you'd much rather have another threat than a corner-case method of defending one. Testing things out, or even running through a course in your mind, is much better than thought-vomiting random junk onto a competitive forum. SBurani has the right idea; Spellskite does pretty much the same job, but so much more against so many decks.
SBurani is also dead on regarding Ancient Stirrings; you are making a mistake if you're ever sideboarding it out. You can't say that of many cards, but it's nearly as essential to this deck's success as the Urza Lands themselves.
Any discussion of what GR-producing lands to use instead of Grove is budget discussion. Any discussion of those lands in GW, GB, or GU variants should be in terms of the version of the deck you're tuning, not which ones to use hypothetically. No list = not competitive discussion.
Thought-Knot Seer is still a very capable card against aggro and combo, even when it isn't coming down on turn two. Not playing Eldrazi Temple in a deck doesn't suddenly invalidate the strengths TKS brings to the table. Now of course, more dedicated Eldrazi decks use the card with more brutal efficiency, but Tron's ability to have seven mana on turn three allows you to play TKS and back it up in several ways. We're not removing cards like Karn for it, so of course if you can cast that first, most of the time that's the correct play.
TKS can draw removal and counters (it's especially effective against Mana Leak), and allow you to also use about half of your deck on the same turn. Fetch another land, cast a Clasm (or Feed the Clan out of the board, which breaks the Burn match in half)...and that's just the start. If you had your turn three Karn dream, turn four can allow you to drop two TKS back to back, or even TKS and Wurmcoil at the same time. It's good against Burn, Zoo, any number of combo decks, and traditional control, and it even does work in the mirror match.
If you draw it outside of the early turns, being a 4/4 for four with a drawback if it dies isn't the best thing to be doing. In midrange-heavy metas (where we're usually excelling anyway), TKS is typically better sidelined. It is important to note, however, that any time your opponent is holding extra copies of cards (planeswalkers, or nonland permanents in general if you're sitting with O-Stone ready to crack) that TKS can still have plenty to rip outside of the first few turns.
Lastly, TKS is a solid choice if you anticipate more land destruction/disruption (though watch out for Blood Moon, as we can't produce colorless at all with one on the table). TKS and Sea Gate Wreckage are great back-foot cards that allow you to stay in games you would have been shut out of otherwise, but can still pressure well when you're trying to pull ahead. I know more people are going with lists closer to what Joe is running, but my list has served me very well overall for all the reasons I've mentioned. Twice at the Indianapolis Open I mulled to four and won, and it was almost completely thanks to SGW and TKS (and some serious luck).
So even though TKS won't be coming down on turn two for us, it can still do some pretty amazing things and shore up some weaknesses we have. If your meta is heavy with Burn, fast combo, or land destruction, you should definitely consider playing a few.
I want to respond to that by giving the core decklist, that no one disputes.
1 Forest
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Oblivion Stone
2 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1) Huh, what? Yes, TKS is an outstanding card, however it is VERY build specific?
2) How is Thought-Knot Seer effective against Mana Leak?
3) "Half of your deck?" - What does that mean? I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm searching for clarification.
Regarding, Gemstone Mine, I'll concede that it has been a pet card of mine, and in my Tron deck for years. However, just because something is cheaper, doesn't make it a budget choice. Further, today's janky card inclusion is tomorrow's secret tech - just ask Joe Lossett...
I have always used the Mines to diversify my SB choices, BUT I do think that vonklaude brings up an interesting debate regarding the decks core identity - whether Gr Tron versus Gx Tron. Though I'm not quite certain that reasonable 'off-color' card choices are available at the moment, but they should be something that we need to keep an eye out for.
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I think feed and life are fine sideboard cards. I'm not convinced about pulse though. Because you have to have a land or creature in the yard to cast it, most of the time you will be targeting your opponents fetches to gain 6 life. There is a lot potential value in the card, but against a deck like burn you are going to need he payoff sooner than pulse allows.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
"Gx Tron" has only ever been decently competitive as GR, with a few specialists doing good work with GW. If you're talking about a Gx build, you need to list more than the core cards; those other inclusions are what would make a deck competitively distinct (or even a case for one, which hasn't even been done here). Saying you're covering all of the bases just in case is basically riding coat tails without a fleshed-out, tested list that has done at least something in testing. SBurani, for example, not only championed GW lists and options, but has tested it thoroughly and cashed with it repeatedly.
What has happened here? No talk of any full list, just a Gx primer review with a rider for a hypothetical variant that does not exist in any competitive capacity. At least if you want to give some merit to your argument, tune it with GW in mind; not only is that the only non-red multicolor variant of this deck with competitive success, but there are also good players here that could chime in with quality feedback.
I respect that you guys are wanting to find the best lands for what you're hopefully looking to do soon, but please go about it the right way. Everything else in this matter, without a developed test list at the very least, should be relegated to the Deck Creation forum, or a single thread on the main Modern page.
@Clay Lindsey:
1. Are you asking me, or are you trying to tell me something here? I outlined in the first post on this page (including the last sentence you quoted) exactly where, and for what reasons, I like TKS. As far as being build specific, I would rule it out in metas with fewer of the archetypes that I mentioned, or in GR variants that tend to rely on Kozilek's Return.
2. To quote myself, from the very post you referenced:
"Tron's ability to have seven mana on turn three allows you to play TKS and back it up in several ways."
Four mana to cast TKS plus three mana to pay for Mana Leak adds up to the seven mana you'd have from turn three Tron. At the Indy Open, I was able to rip an Emrakul on turn three against Jeskai/Nahiri Control through a Mana Leak. From eight mana on, it's solid against Remand as well.
3. To once again quote myself from the aforementioned post:
"Fetch another land, cast a Clasm (or Feed the Clan out of the board, which breaks the Burn match in half)...and that's just the start."
Here is a list from a post I made a few months ago that addresses both 2 and 3, in terms of what else we can do with turn three Tron and TKS:
-Fetch with Expedition Map
-Fetch with Egg/Scrying
-Drop O-Stone
-Drop Egg/crack to Pyroclasm
-Drop Egg/Skite
-Pay for Mana Leak
And those aren't exhaustive; Egg to Feed the Clan, Egg to Egg to Ancient Stirrings, and any number of things with Relic of Progenitus/Pithing Needle/Warping Wail/Grafdigger's Cage...we have options for days.
If we're talking about GR Tron, then yes, being cheaper for a land other than Grove is definitely a budget choice. If not, please go into more detail with the Gx variant you're using so we can see how it's all coming together and working for you.
Joe Lossett is a great tester who uses a very scientific approach to developing his deck. He's very good at not being too attached to any cards, and he's able to size up an expected meta to find the right choices for him, then test them out at length. His "secret tech" is usually stuff that was at least mentioned here a time or two; he just reached the conclusion that those cards would give him an edge in matches we tend to be dogs in, and ran with it until he brewed his optimal list. Nowhere in this pattern are there any "janky card inclusions."
Would love to see a truly competitive list come out that's not GR, GW, or just G. What do you guys have in mind?
For the budget guys who are talking about alternatives to Grove - during Gw Tron, I thought 3 Razorverge Thicket and one Brushland was okay. It's not good, but it was tolerable. The GR equivalents would seemingly work the same. I can't compare that to Gemstone Mines since I never tried them.
Based on the questions I got asked during the Tron events, the most common problem people are having is with sideboarding. That wasn't surprising. I think mulliganing and sideboarding with the deck are pretty tough. Fortunately those are things you can practice without an opponent. Several of you guys probably know the deck better than I do, but for those that are unsure of themselves - my advice on mulligans is that you should do it more. However much you mulligan, it's probably not enough It took me a while to figure it out because it's the opposite of the way I approach Miracles, but once I started going to 6 and 5 more often, I started winning more. As for sideboarding, just practice. And by that I mean look at your cards and see what you would do against different things. One guy came up to me and wanted help against burn. I asked him to show me his boarding, and he gave me the 9 cards he was bringing in, and then struggled to find 5 he wanted to cut. Don't be that guy.
I really like playing this deck and will probably play it at the next Modern event I go to. That's obvious I guess. It's not like I would put it down after steamrolling my way back onto the Pro Tour with it.
I don't know if this reply added much to the discussion, but I wanted to say something since I was here. Have fun guys.
Thank you for the reply and explaination. For whatever reason, my brain was not reading the original post in the same way.
Concerning my decklist: the only competitive result I can boast with my current build of the deck (listed in detail a few pages back) is a TCGPlayer Modern States Top 8, where I was knocked out of contention by an Infect player; had I been playing 4x Bolts, history may have been different. GRANTED, I understand that a "States" metagame does not equate to a Grand Prix environment.
My original decklist, which includes the Mines, is on page #76 of this thread.
Further, on the premise of "budget" cards. The price of a card only reflects a low supply, compared to a high demand. If you add in the multitudes of players who have migrated from X-deck to Gx Tron <netdeck> - and by default buy out Groves online - the price of the card will increase. Forgive me if the notion of cost doesn't directly correlate to something being the best.
And to use your own words, "So instead of calling his [Lossett] list bad, how about you either learn to play it properly, or adjust it according to your own playstyle and meta? Just ridiculous." My card choices are reflective of my own playstyle and I have had moderate success with those card choices - I fully understand the limitations of said choices and adjust accordingly. Do I have an expectation that the community will take my word as gospel? Hell, no... The expectation I do have, however, is that the community will use strict empirical methodology to vet, either in a positive or negative way, the card choice recommendations from its members.
After all, I have as many Grand Prix wins and Pro Tour Invitation notches on my belt as you do...
I believe that we/us/everyone are conflating the meanings of a few choice words into one: budget. As an older fella, to me, budget refers to an intentional cap on spending. I think the word we/us/everyone should be using regarding card choices is, viable or viability. The viability of something does not refer to its absoluteness. It refers to its 'life' within certain parameters. For example, Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace help to mitigate similar problems as sideboard cards, though only one is VIABLE as a card choice for/against certain decks.
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I am also on the World Breaker and double Newlamog bandwagon, for what it's worth.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R