Silvortal has basically explained what I was trying to say before in much broader, so I thank them for that.
Yes, I went 2-3 in this particular 1k. I lost to storm, UWR(named sowing salts with slaughter games to find out they weren't there) and burn. Last month I took the whole thing down with g/r tron. I play at a store that has dudes like max brown and Dan Jordan at there playing too, so I feel like I have an ok grasp on tron within a competitive level.
I think ugin is a great turn four, and this nonsense about not setting up tron effeciently. I have tron on turn 4 a good amount of time, maybe I just have better luck, I don't know. Ugin wipes the board(not effecting you at all because colorless) and protects himself. O stone is great too. Don't get me wrong. But o stone doesn't stay around after to bolt your opponent in the face to win game on his ult or just slamming Emrakul. Now with that said, you still need to worry about affinity and infect and twin so you have SB cards like natures claim, combust o stone or even vandalblast. I really think ugin is the bee knees and well worth at least 3 slots mainboard.
I don't know; O-Stone's still good in all the matchups that Ugin's good in, and better in quite a few that Ugin's bad in that are bad for us (Affinity, Twin). I definitely wouldn't run a single Ugin until I was running 4 O-Stones, but as O-Stones 5-8, I think he's fine. He's a lot better than Perilous Vault or All Is Dust, but still quite a bit worse than Karn or O-Stone.
The issue I have with dropping Pyroclasm is that, although the card is only good in a few matchups, it's REALLY good in those matchups. If Affinity is going to be showing up more we need a way to interact before turn 3-4. On the other hand, O-Stone is a good card but not one we can't afford to drop. It's certainly better then Ugin against Affinity and Splinter Twin, but it's not the card that decides those matchups.
The main argument against Ugin seems to be that he's worse then O-Stone when we don't have Tron online. I think the solution should be enough early game interaction to keep us alive untill we do. This is also true when playing against Blood Moon, which is why I've been testing cards such as Firespout, Peace Strider and Thragtusk in my sideboard.
The main reason to play Ugin right now is Stony Silence. Because of Siege Rhino the B/G/x decks have moved to white, and with Affinity returning I think Stony Silence will see a lot of play.
I plan to be running the list I posted a few pages back for now. Instead of O-Stones I'm playing 3 Ugin and 2 Spellskite. Spellskite helps mitigate the loss of O-Stone against Affinity, and even improves the Splinter Twin matchup. Ugin wins games against fair decks on his own, and is a fast clock against unfair decks.
Pyroclasm is good in exactly the Affinity matchup. We lose that matchup if we don't interact with them before T3-4. Combust is good in several matchups including the Twin matchup. We lose that matchup if we don't interact with them before T3-4. Why is the latter considered an SB card if the former isn't? Clearly if Pyroclasm is affecting a small enough portion of the metagame, regardless of how good it is in that portion of the metagame, it should be considered an SB card and not an MD card.
A card that's "only good in a few matchups, but REALLY good in those matchups" is definitionally a sideboard card. It's a card that you want to see in those matchups, so you run it alongside your MD for when you run into those MUs. Compare this to O-Stone; O-Stone's a card that's good in almost every single MU. That's a card you want to be running in the MD.
No one is running MD Stony Silence. So worrying about it game 1 is ridiculous as well. Again, O-Stone's a card that is 70% as good as Ugin in the matchups that Ugin's good in, while being actually useful in MUs like Affinity and Twin. It means you don't have to run Pyroclasm along your Ugin's; it's like an Ugin and Pyroclasm all-in-one.
There have been several Tron variants that have done well by cutting some number of Pyroclasms (sometimes even completely cutting red for All Is Dust). There has not been a single popular variant of green-based Tron (at least to my knowledge) that has run less than 3 O-Stones in the MD (generally with the rest in the SB). Without MD O-Stones, you're essentially fully giving up G1 vs. Twin, making G1 vs. Affinity a lot worse, and making MD Blood Moon (which is rapidly growing in popularity) a death sentence instead of a mild irritation. Also, you're making any kind of MD land hate absolutely back-breaking against you, because you can't rely on a 5-mana Planar Cleansing to salvage the game for you.
Now, I may be wrong and the 30-50% bonus that Ugin gives you in the MUs where he's good might be worth cutting O-Stones for. But if you ask me whether it's a better idea to cut what amounts to MD Affinity hate, or to cut a card that's strong in every MU except Scapeshift, I think it's easy to cut the former. Pyroclasm's just a really bad card right now, while O-Stone's as relevant as ever (and Ugin would be terrible if it wasn't).
I think that the argument that Ugin's a better O-Stone is an extremely tenuous one; let's list the pros and cons of each.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
+3-turn clock against decks that don't use board presence
+Can sweep repeatedly
-Useless against colorless permanents (Affinity, Eggs, Tron)
-Sorcery speed (useless against Twin, Storm to an extent)
-Costs 8 mana (lump-sum)
Oblivion Stone
+Can divide the cost (Good against Blood Moon, Sowing Salt, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge)
+Clears the whole field
+Instant-speed
-One-time effect
-Useless in MUs where the field doesn't matter (exactly Scapeshift)
In games in which I use Oblivion Stone, I rarely lose (and when I do it's generally to Lightning Bolts or flash creatures). I may never lose with Ugin in the MUs where he's better, but he's not good in as nearly as many MUs (and absolutely miserable if you get disrupted). While I think he's powerful, O-Stone's a swiss-army knife. Ugin's a bludgeon; more powerful, but useless in all manner of situations when you need something with more precision.
If you look way back into the MTGO archives, you'll see some mono-green Tron decks that ran cards like Mishra's Bauble along with a 4 All Is Dust complement to Oblivion Stones (and no Pyroclasms). Given how much more powerful Ugin is than All Is Dust, I think there could be potential for the same kind of "greedy build" here (especially considering how insane Spellskite is in the current meta). However, I think turning Twin from a 2:1 preboard MU into a 4:1 or 5:1 preboard MU, and losing to Blood Moon decks outright is a harsh price to pay for running Pyroclasms in the MD over those O-Stones.
EDIT: I feel even MD Nature's Claim is better than MD Pyroclasm right now. Nature's Claim does serious work against Burn (and other hyper-aggressive decks), Twin, Bogles, Storm and Ascendancy, is better against Affinity, and kills Blood Moon. Pyroclasm on the other hand is slightly worse against Affinity. This isn't an endorsement of how good MD Nature's Claim is as it is how bad MD Clasms are in this post-Pod meta.
This is the deck I have been testing to some great results and what I will be taking to my next modern tournament on Monday, probably running one Brushland in place of a Razorverge Thicket. I have found reason to keep Relic of Progenitus in the 75 especially if I run into some Dredge-Vine or random graveyard based decks otherwise they become easy choices for boarding out games 2 and 3. Timely Reinforcements has been allstars in saving me against burn and being able to run and cast Leyline of Sanctity against combo and burn has helped immensely games 2 and 3. I also had pointed out to me Platinum Angel while narrow can save me in aggro matchups like Merfolk, Affinity (not splashing red) or Infect and with 4 toughness is at least semi hard to remove and is a must answer. Not sure how I feel running it yet though as usually sideboarded in against me is artifact hate.
Otherwise I am huge fan of Timely Reinforcements, it is exactly what we need to stall out the opponent until you can slam something big turn 4. I am considering running this main deck but not sure what to cut for it.
Surgical Extraction is starting to see little to no play in my matches and I am considering cutting for something else but where it works it works very well.
In regards to sideboarding for any given match I will sideout any combination of Explore/Sphere/Relic/Sylvan and sometimes Sundering Titan to make room for the sideboard cards but everything else stays main.
My final thoughts on Ugin right now is that you should definitely be running him as a minimum 2 of but you should not be cutting Oblivion Stone for him.
Do you know I've even considered playing claim's mainboard due to decks like Zoo (running path's for coils), Burn (kill my Coil, block your dudes and gain 7 life.. SURE), Blue Moon.. that's cute. Affinity? Let me destroy your plating for you game 1 (!), EOT Deceiver Exarch, tap your Grove -> Ghost Quarter fetch basic forest... Good luck going off.
I think it's better than Pyroclasm for sure. I might test it at some point, but the near future's going to be full of testing my greedy list. Other than what you listed, it prevents/punishes Affinity for going all in, is valuable in the burn MU for blowing up your own eggs until you hit Coil, kills Stony Silences and other random artifact/enchantment based hate and more.
This is the deck I have been testing to some great results and what I will be taking to my next modern tournament on Monday, probably running one Brushland in place of a Razorverge Thicket. I have found reason to keep Relic of Progenitus in the 75 especially if I run into some Dredge-Vine or random graveyard based decks otherwise they become easy choices for boarding out games 2 and 3. Timely Reinforcements has been allstars in saving me against burn and being able to run and cast Leyline of Sanctity against combo and burn has helped immensely games 2 and 3. I also had pointed out to me Platinum Angel while narrow can save me in aggro matchups like Merfolk, Affinity (not splashing red) or Infect and with 4 toughness is at least semi hard to remove and is a must answer. Not sure how I feel running it yet though as usually sideboarded in against me is artifact hate.
Otherwise I am huge fan of Timely Reinforcements, it is exactly what we need to stall out the opponent until you can slam something big turn 4. I am considering running this main deck but not sure what to cut for it.
Surgical Extraction is starting to see little to no play in my matches and I am considering cutting for something else but where it works it works very well.
In regards to sideboarding for any given match I will sideout any combination of Explore/Sphere/Relic/Sylvan and sometimes Sundering Titan to make room for the sideboard cards but everything else stays main.
My final thoughts on Ugin right now is that you should definitely be running him as a minimum 2 of but you should not be cutting Oblivion Stone for him.
I've always liked the idea of the white splash, but are Thickets really the right land? They completely shut you down from casting any of your 8-drops if you drop them on turn 4. Are Explores any good for you? I've never had luck with them - I feel like if you go the white route, you almost want to be MDing some number of Timelys.
The reason I feel Tron's always splashed red hasn't been strictly the power of the SB cards/Pyroclasm - I think a lot of it comes from the free red via Groves that's often underestimated (if this ever became a cycle, I think GW/GU/GB Tron variants would be a lot more possible).
It's also good vs Scapeshift game 1 (they won't see it coming and will not calculate it in), vs Storm (wrecking their Ascension), Ad Nasseaum (narrow, but can nick a Phyrexian Unlife for thw in), Merfolk (remove spreading seas) etc.
To be honest, Nature's Claim does so much more than Pyroclasm at this moment... Pyroclasm is just good vs.. little zoo (barely hits anything there), Affinity (sure, it wrecks the deck).. that's it?
Yeah, I don't think Clasm's too playable. I think that Claim's actually stronger that Clasm vs. Affinity - it actually kills the Plating, prevents them from using Ravager effectively (as opposed to forcing them to use it with Clasm), and most importantly kills their manlands (looking at you, Inkmoth Nexus).
Clasm also doesn't hit TOO much from little Zoo - it only hits Nacatl T2 on the play, will never hit a Kird Ape or Loam Lion, and has a good chance of missing even Experiment One. It's probably still better than Claim in that MU, but even Claim's decent for the 4 life trick (as little Zoo starts playing like Burn towards its endgame).
You're underestimating the amount of matchups where pyroclasm is good. I mentioned Affinity, but there's also Delver, Hatebears, Faeries and Tokens - all matchups I think we'll be running in to. Against most matchups pyroclasm has one or more targets, the same can't be said for Combust.
I don't know why you're jumping to the conclusion that I'm worried about Stony Silence main. Before sideboarding there's no hate which means getting Tron online is easy. After boarding however I expect to see more Stony Silence then I do Blood Moon. This makes Ugin the better sweeper in my opinion.
On the topic of Splinter Twin, although Oblivion Stone is better then Ugin in that matchup it's definitely not by a large margin. Against a fast start O-Stone is useless, and even if you do land one in time they can tap it to make you use it as an 8 mana removal spell. As you mentioned, we need to interact with Splinter Twin before turn 3-4 which is why I'm playing 2 Spellskites main.
Now I'm not saying an all-in version of Tron that relies on 8 heavy sweepers can't work. I just feel like cutting cards like Pyroclasm and Relic of Progenitus for sweepers makes you too vulnerable to both Aggro and Combo decks. With the meta as volatile as it is I'd much rather play the card that I feel is better in the good matchups, and (maindeck hate) cards that I feel help me with the bad matchups.
Combust is better against Merfolk, great against UWR/manlands, and hits several creatures from Zoo and Junk (Anafenza, Rhino, Smiter).
Delver, Hatebears, Faeries, Tokens - maybe if these decks get more popular and thrive in the new meta, Pyroclasms will be decent again. But I can't remember ever running into Faeries in a major event, run into Hatebears and Tokens relatively infrequently, and people are dropping Delver in droves. Of these,
-Tokens is a slow enough deck that Pyroclasm isn't significantly better than O-Stone. Especially when anthem effects can easily push them in the realm of 3/3+.
-Faeries is pretty Clasm resistant - most of their creatures have flash, and Clasm doesn't hit Mutavault or Mistbind Clique. Again, Faeries isn't a blisteringly fast deck, and even Clasm still leaves them with Bitterblossom intact.
-Hatebears is a deck I like having Pyroclasm in the deck for, but it still doesn't hit their Smiters/Vials, and they still can just go over the top with them and Wilt-Leaf Liege.
-Delver - Clasm's good here. But as I said, a lot of people just don't want to run this deck post-Cruise ban.
Do decks still exist that you want Clasm against? Yes. Are there enough of them to justify running them in your 60 as opposed to your 75? At the moment, I really don't think so.
Spellskite is pretty good against Twin, but the problem is that you can't rely on it for the whole game - it eventually eats an eot Cryptic -> untap, Twin (or Flame Slash, Twin on the same turn). Against Twin you almost always need 2 pieces of hate, and O-Stone effectively functions as that second piece of hate.
Relic's pretty bad against the current gambit of combo decks - with the exception of Storm (which can go off through it) and Griselbrand Reanimator, the card doesn't do much more than cycle nowadays, and 2 mana's a high premium.
This is the deck I have been testing to some great results and what I will be taking to my next modern tournament on Monday, probably running one Brushland in place of a Razorverge Thicket. I have found reason to keep Relic of Progenitus in the 75 especially if I run into some Dredge-Vine or random graveyard based decks otherwise they become easy choices for boarding out games 2 and 3. Timely Reinforcements has been allstars in saving me against burn and being able to run and cast Leyline of Sanctity against combo and burn has helped immensely games 2 and 3. I also had pointed out to me Platinum Angel while narrow can save me in aggro matchups like Merfolk, Affinity (not splashing red) or Infect and with 4 toughness is at least semi hard to remove and is a must answer. Not sure how I feel running it yet though as usually sideboarded in against me is artifact hate.
Otherwise I am huge fan of Timely Reinforcements, it is exactly what we need to stall out the opponent until you can slam something big turn 4. I am considering running this main deck but not sure what to cut for it.
Surgical Extraction is starting to see little to no play in my matches and I am considering cutting for something else but where it works it works very well.
In regards to sideboarding for any given match I will sideout any combination of Explore/Sphere/Relic/Sylvan and sometimes Sundering Titan to make room for the sideboard cards but everything else stays main.
My final thoughts on Ugin right now is that you should definitely be running him as a minimum 2 of but you should not be cutting Oblivion Stone for him.
I've always liked the idea of the white splash, but are Thickets really the right land? They completely shut you down from casting any of your 8-drops if you drop them on turn 4. Are Explores any good for you? I've never had luck with them - I feel like if you go the white route, you almost want to be MDing some number of Timelys.
Thickets are never really doing anything except for turns 1, 2, and 3 when they are most important, at least that is when I want them up in post-sideboard games. But there is those key moments where I would prefer a Brushland late game and am going to probably either go 3 Thickets and 1 Brushland or a 2/2 split. I have never put down a Thicket turn 4 though unless I end up being very unlucky it is always early game or late game.
Explore like I have said before is great for stabilizing against land hate via Sowing Salt, Tectonic Edge, Fulminator Mage, Spreading Seas and Ghost Quarter. It has won me games where I had no business winning because of those cards. And being that it replaces itself like our eggs while giving us an extra land drop is pretty important with the more top heavy curve that I am running.
I just am not sure what to cut in the main for Timely unless the meta ends up being very little to do with the graveyard in which case I can find 2 spots in place of Relic.
I've been lurking in this thread since around the time that bannings were announced. Have played in a couple local tournaments with Tron and plan to play it for the forseeable future, so thanks in advance everyone and I look forward to collaborating with all of you.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried (or even considered) this:
Miseing a 1 of Painter's Servant alongside 2 copies of the Planeswalker seems like it would be pretty ridiculous when it comes together. Exile all permanents but I get to keep lightning bolt on a stick in play? I'm pretty sure there aren't any magic cards that can even come close to that for 8 mana ... its the next best thing to rebooting with Karn, only much easier to set up. Painter's servant is tutorable with Eye and Ancient Stirrings and does a pretty decent wall impression in the matchups where that sort of thing would be useful ... but with what I think is a HUGE upside.
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Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
Do decks still exist that you want Clasm against? Yes. Are there enough of them to justify running them in your 60 as opposed to your 75? At the moment, I really don't think so.
This is what I disagree with. Delver isn't gone, Affinity is back and I've been seeing decks such as Tokens and Faeries being played more and being discussed more - both in my local meta and online.
Still, I'm interested to see how your "Big Tron" (shamelessly stolen from Big Zoo) list will perform. I'll pay some extra attention this weekend to how well Ugin performs compared to O-Stone and how well Pyroclasm performs in general.
Yeah, I'll report back when I test it a little more. I'd love to hear your take on Pyroclasm in the meta as well, after running it for a bit.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mean we also annihilate lands with Ugin, since they become a colored permanent?
Yeah, that's generally the point. You play the Servant, then you -X for enough to exile everything but Ugin himself. In my opinion it's far too much work, but it all but guarantees a win (of course, at that point you've landed an Ugin and are easily in Ulamog/Emrakul territory). The problem is that Painter's Servant is pretty useless by himself, but I guess you can treat him as a vanilla 1/3 for 2 in a pinch. It feels like the whole TNN/Xenagod discussion all over again - ultimately too much work to decrease deck consistency for.
I've been lurking in this thread since around the time that bannings were announced. Have played in a couple local tournaments with Tron and plan to play it for the forseeable future, so thanks in advance everyone and I look forward to collaborating with all of you.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried (or even considered) this:
Miseing a 1 of Painter's Servant alongside 2 copies of the Planeswalker seems like it would be pretty ridiculous when it comes together. Exile all permanents but I get to keep lightning bolt on a stick in play? I'm pretty sure there aren't any magic cards that can even come close to that for 8 mana ... its the next best thing to rebooting with Karn, only much easier to set up. Painter's servant is tutorable with Eye and Ancient Stirrings and does a pretty decent wall impression in the matchups where that sort of thing would be useful ... but with what I think is a HUGE upside.
Problem is, while Painter's Servant is in play, you can't use Ancient Stirrings or Eye of Ugin. I don't like that anti-synergy.
Even disregarding that, I think it's just too cute to really be a good strategy.
I've been testing this recently, happy with it's results on Cockatrice, want to test it on Magic Online if I can get the cards. I'll likely change up the sideboard soon, because I want combust. I've been really happy with 4 chalice in the side. Ugin wins me a lot of games it seems, -2 or -3 will usually turn the game in my favor, I mean we're talking about a Planeswalkers that threatens multiple one sided board wiped and then plus's to control the board with lightning bolts.
I've been lurking in this thread since around the time that bannings were announced. Have played in a couple local tournaments with Tron and plan to play it for the forseeable future, so thanks in advance everyone and I look forward to collaborating with all of you.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried (or even considered) this:
Miseing a 1 of Painter's Servant alongside 2 copies of the Planeswalker seems like it would be pretty ridiculous when it comes together. Exile all permanents but I get to keep lightning bolt on a stick in play? I'm pretty sure there aren't any magic cards that can even come close to that for 8 mana ... its the next best thing to rebooting with Karn, only much easier to set up. Painter's servant is tutorable with Eye and Ancient Stirrings and does a pretty decent wall impression in the matchups where that sort of thing would be useful ... but with what I think is a HUGE upside.
It was the first thing I thought of when I saw Ugin and it would be great sideboard against Affinity, especially since I want to cut Clasm, I have actually tried it but we would kill our lands and T4 might be too slow in that matchup. I love the idea though and if you make it work I would love to see the list. good luck
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Slivortal, you do not play any relics in the mb? I saw them in the sb though, but is it not strong enough in the meta atm? My impression is that it takes out the upcomming goyfs and the snappies.
I've been lurking in this thread since around the time that bannings were announced. Have played in a couple local tournaments with Tron and plan to play it for the forseeable future, so thanks in advance everyone and I look forward to collaborating with all of you.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried (or even considered) this:
Miseing a 1 of Painter's Servant alongside 2 copies of the Planeswalker seems like it would be pretty ridiculous when it comes together. Exile all permanents but I get to keep lightning bolt on a stick in play? I'm pretty sure there aren't any magic cards that can even come close to that for 8 mana ... its the next best thing to rebooting with Karn, only much easier to set up. Painter's servant is tutorable with Eye and Ancient Stirrings and does a pretty decent wall impression in the matchups where that sort of thing would be useful ... but with what I think is a HUGE upside.
Has anyone considered Painter's Servant in the sb? I just tested against affinity and it is a monster with ugin...
Painter's servant... yes I've considered it. No I don't like it. A combo is generally only as good as the pieces function alone, and Painter's Servant does no function alone. Also, it kills Ancient Stirrings and Eye of Ugin. A hard reset on the field though would be fun to pull off once with Ugin as the sole survivor.
Slivortal, you do not play any relics in the mb? I saw them in the sb though, but is it not strong enough in the meta atm? My impression is that it takes out the upcomming goyfs and the snappies.
Shrinking Tarmogoyf is cute, and so is disrupting Snapcaster Mage, but generally the overall field does not have a lot of grave interactions going for it at the moment that I am aware of with both Delve and Birthing Pod booted from the meta. Yes that could change at a moment's notice (coughDredgecough). Generally, I'd rather kill Goyf than shrink it, and Snapcaster rarely pulls back backbreaking spells that have been used (at least since I've been testing). This can change at a moment's notice, but additionally, if there is no additional value, too many cantrips in the deck means that players start cantripping into cantrips... which is a nuisance.
I've been lurking in this thread since around the time that bannings were announced. Have played in a couple local tournaments with Tron and plan to play it for the forseeable future, so thanks in advance everyone and I look forward to collaborating with all of you.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried (or even considered) this:
Miseing a 1 of Painter's Servant alongside 2 copies of the Planeswalker seems like it would be pretty ridiculous when it comes together. Exile all permanents but I get to keep lightning bolt on a stick in play? I'm pretty sure there aren't any magic cards that can even come close to that for 8 mana ... its the next best thing to rebooting with Karn, only much easier to set up. Painter's servant is tutorable with Eye and Ancient Stirrings and does a pretty decent wall impression in the matchups where that sort of thing would be useful ... but with what I think is a HUGE upside.
Problem is, while Painter's Servant is in play, you can't use Ancient Stirrings or Eye of Ugin. I don't like that anti-synergy.
Even disregarding that, I think it's just too cute to really be a good strategy.
You wouldn't put painter's servant in play as soon as you get it ... you'd put it in play if you had Ugin and were going to go off the next turn, or hold it till you had 10 mana and slam the combo down. Playing it turn 2 would only be good if you just need a roadblock.
I'm pretty disappointing in you two ... dismissing a really powerful interaction without even trying it is pretty poor by any brewer's standards.
In case I wasn't clear enough in my original post, I'm talking about playing ONE painter's servant maindeck because of the interaction with Ugin. I don't know why you'd need more than 1 since you can get it off stirrings and tutor it off Eye if you already have the planeswalker in hand or on board.
Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
thanks a lot, really. i will follow your precious advice
my side is
4 nature's claim
3 combust
1 ancient grudge
1 crucible of worlds
1 spellskite (i've just one copy)
2 torpor orb
2 firespout
1 batterskull
Your board looks similar to mine.
Against Merfolk the Firespouts definitely come in, probably instead of Pyroclasm (not that strong in the match-up anyhow). Batterskull might be better against Abzan than the second Wurmcoil, but I've never tested that myself.
I'd disagree with this. I'd bring in the Firespouts in addition to Pyroclasm. Pyroclasm is astoundingly good against Merfolk. Sure, if they get two Lords out they're invulnerable to it, but that's why you don't wait and Pyroclasm early.
I don't know; O-Stone's still good in all the matchups that Ugin's good in, and better in quite a few that Ugin's bad in that are bad for us (Affinity, Twin). I definitely wouldn't run a single Ugin until I was running 4 O-Stones, but as O-Stones 5-8, I think he's fine. He's a lot better than Perilous Vault or All Is Dust, but still quite a bit worse than Karn or O-Stone.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
A card that's "only good in a few matchups, but REALLY good in those matchups" is definitionally a sideboard card. It's a card that you want to see in those matchups, so you run it alongside your MD for when you run into those MUs. Compare this to O-Stone; O-Stone's a card that's good in almost every single MU. That's a card you want to be running in the MD.
No one is running MD Stony Silence. So worrying about it game 1 is ridiculous as well. Again, O-Stone's a card that is 70% as good as Ugin in the matchups that Ugin's good in, while being actually useful in MUs like Affinity and Twin. It means you don't have to run Pyroclasm along your Ugin's; it's like an Ugin and Pyroclasm all-in-one.
There have been several Tron variants that have done well by cutting some number of Pyroclasms (sometimes even completely cutting red for All Is Dust). There has not been a single popular variant of green-based Tron (at least to my knowledge) that has run less than 3 O-Stones in the MD (generally with the rest in the SB). Without MD O-Stones, you're essentially fully giving up G1 vs. Twin, making G1 vs. Affinity a lot worse, and making MD Blood Moon (which is rapidly growing in popularity) a death sentence instead of a mild irritation. Also, you're making any kind of MD land hate absolutely back-breaking against you, because you can't rely on a 5-mana Planar Cleansing to salvage the game for you.
Now, I may be wrong and the 30-50% bonus that Ugin gives you in the MUs where he's good might be worth cutting O-Stones for. But if you ask me whether it's a better idea to cut what amounts to MD Affinity hate, or to cut a card that's strong in every MU except Scapeshift, I think it's easy to cut the former. Pyroclasm's just a really bad card right now, while O-Stone's as relevant as ever (and Ugin would be terrible if it wasn't).
I think that the argument that Ugin's a better O-Stone is an extremely tenuous one; let's list the pros and cons of each.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
+3-turn clock against decks that don't use board presence
+Can sweep repeatedly
-Useless against colorless permanents (Affinity, Eggs, Tron)
-Sorcery speed (useless against Twin, Storm to an extent)
-Costs 8 mana (lump-sum)
Oblivion Stone
+Can divide the cost (Good against Blood Moon, Sowing Salt, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge)
+Clears the whole field
+Instant-speed
-One-time effect
-Useless in MUs where the field doesn't matter (exactly Scapeshift)
In games in which I use Oblivion Stone, I rarely lose (and when I do it's generally to Lightning Bolts or flash creatures). I may never lose with Ugin in the MUs where he's better, but he's not good in as nearly as many MUs (and absolutely miserable if you get disrupted). While I think he's powerful, O-Stone's a swiss-army knife. Ugin's a bludgeon; more powerful, but useless in all manner of situations when you need something with more precision.
If you look way back into the MTGO archives, you'll see some mono-green Tron decks that ran cards like Mishra's Bauble along with a 4 All Is Dust complement to Oblivion Stones (and no Pyroclasms). Given how much more powerful Ugin is than All Is Dust, I think there could be potential for the same kind of "greedy build" here (especially considering how insane Spellskite is in the current meta). However, I think turning Twin from a 2:1 preboard MU into a 4:1 or 5:1 preboard MU, and losing to Blood Moon decks outright is a harsh price to pay for running Pyroclasms in the MD over those O-Stones.
EDIT: I feel even MD Nature's Claim is better than MD Pyroclasm right now. Nature's Claim does serious work against Burn (and other hyper-aggressive decks), Twin, Bogles, Storm and Ascendancy, is better against Affinity, and kills Blood Moon. Pyroclasm on the other hand is slightly worse against Affinity. This isn't an endorsement of how good MD Nature's Claim is as it is how bad MD Clasms are in this post-Pod meta.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Otherwise I am huge fan of Timely Reinforcements, it is exactly what we need to stall out the opponent until you can slam something big turn 4. I am considering running this main deck but not sure what to cut for it.
Surgical Extraction is starting to see little to no play in my matches and I am considering cutting for something else but where it works it works very well.
In regards to sideboarding for any given match I will sideout any combination of Explore/Sphere/Relic/Sylvan and sometimes Sundering Titan to make room for the sideboard cards but everything else stays main.
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Eye of Ugin
Creatures
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sundering Titan
4 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Oblivion Stone
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Chromatic Sphere
3 Explore
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Boil
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Platinum Angel
My final thoughts on Ugin right now is that you should definitely be running him as a minimum 2 of but you should not be cutting Oblivion Stone for him.
I think it's better than Pyroclasm for sure. I might test it at some point, but the near future's going to be full of testing my greedy list. Other than what you listed, it prevents/punishes Affinity for going all in, is valuable in the burn MU for blowing up your own eggs until you hit Coil, kills Stony Silences and other random artifact/enchantment based hate and more.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
The reason I feel Tron's always splashed red hasn't been strictly the power of the SB cards/Pyroclasm - I think a lot of it comes from the free red via Groves that's often underestimated (if this ever became a cycle, I think GW/GU/GB Tron variants would be a lot more possible).Yeah, I don't think Clasm's too playable. I think that Claim's actually stronger that Clasm vs. Affinity - it actually kills the Plating, prevents them from using Ravager effectively (as opposed to forcing them to use it with Clasm), and most importantly kills their manlands (looking at you, Inkmoth Nexus).
Clasm also doesn't hit TOO much from little Zoo - it only hits Nacatl T2 on the play, will never hit a Kird Ape or Loam Lion, and has a good chance of missing even Experiment One. It's probably still better than Claim in that MU, but even Claim's decent for the 4 life trick (as little Zoo starts playing like Burn towards its endgame).Combust is better against Merfolk, great against UWR/manlands, and hits several creatures from Zoo and Junk (Anafenza, Rhino, Smiter).
Delver, Hatebears, Faeries, Tokens - maybe if these decks get more popular and thrive in the new meta, Pyroclasms will be decent again. But I can't remember ever running into Faeries in a major event, run into Hatebears and Tokens relatively infrequently, and people are dropping Delver in droves. Of these,
-Tokens is a slow enough deck that Pyroclasm isn't significantly better than O-Stone. Especially when anthem effects can easily push them in the realm of 3/3+.
-Faeries is pretty Clasm resistant - most of their creatures have flash, and Clasm doesn't hit Mutavault or Mistbind Clique. Again, Faeries isn't a blisteringly fast deck, and even Clasm still leaves them with Bitterblossom intact.
-Hatebears is a deck I like having Pyroclasm in the deck for, but it still doesn't hit their Smiters/Vials, and they still can just go over the top with them and Wilt-Leaf Liege.
-Delver - Clasm's good here. But as I said, a lot of people just don't want to run this deck post-Cruise ban.
Do decks still exist that you want Clasm against? Yes. Are there enough of them to justify running them in your 60 as opposed to your 75? At the moment, I really don't think so.
Spellskite is pretty good against Twin, but the problem is that you can't rely on it for the whole game - it eventually eats an eot Cryptic -> untap, Twin (or Flame Slash, Twin on the same turn). Against Twin you almost always need 2 pieces of hate, and O-Stone effectively functions as that second piece of hate.
Relic's pretty bad against the current gambit of combo decks - with the exception of Storm (which can go off through it) and Griselbrand Reanimator, the card doesn't do much more than cycle nowadays, and 2 mana's a high premium.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Explore like I have said before is great for stabilizing against land hate via Sowing Salt, Tectonic Edge, Fulminator Mage, Spreading Seas and Ghost Quarter. It has won me games where I had no business winning because of those cards. And being that it replaces itself like our eggs while giving us an extra land drop is pretty important with the more top heavy curve that I am running.
I just am not sure what to cut in the main for Timely unless the meta ends up being very little to do with the graveyard in which case I can find 2 spots in place of Relic.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried (or even considered) this:
Painter's Servant + Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Miseing a 1 of Painter's Servant alongside 2 copies of the Planeswalker seems like it would be pretty ridiculous when it comes together. Exile all permanents but I get to keep lightning bolt on a stick in play? I'm pretty sure there aren't any magic cards that can even come close to that for 8 mana ... its the next best thing to rebooting with Karn, only much easier to set up. Painter's servant is tutorable with Eye and Ancient Stirrings and does a pretty decent wall impression in the matchups where that sort of thing would be useful ... but with what I think is a HUGE upside.
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Even disregarding that, I think it's just too cute to really be a good strategy.
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
4 Grove of the Burnwillow's
2 Forest
2 Phyrexia's Core
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Eye of Ugin
Creatures 5:
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Karn Liberated
Other Spells 25:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Star
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Pyroclasm
3 Oblivion Stone
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 All is Dust
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
2 Pyroclasm
2 All is Dust
2 Karn Liberated
1 Ancient Grudge
Also, Phyrexia's Core? why?
It was the first thing I thought of when I saw Ugin and it would be great sideboard against Affinity, especially since I want to cut Clasm, I have actually tried it but we would kill our lands and T4 might be too slow in that matchup. I love the idea though and if you make it work I would love to see the list. good luck
This came up before. My sentiment hasn't changed:
++++
Shrinking Tarmogoyf is cute, and so is disrupting Snapcaster Mage, but generally the overall field does not have a lot of grave interactions going for it at the moment that I am aware of with both Delve and Birthing Pod booted from the meta. Yes that could change at a moment's notice (coughDredgecough). Generally, I'd rather kill Goyf than shrink it, and Snapcaster rarely pulls back backbreaking spells that have been used (at least since I've been testing). This can change at a moment's notice, but additionally, if there is no additional value, too many cantrips in the deck means that players start cantripping into cantrips... which is a nuisance.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Based on 0 testing ... nice.
You wouldn't put painter's servant in play as soon as you get it ... you'd put it in play if you had Ugin and were going to go off the next turn, or hold it till you had 10 mana and slam the combo down. Playing it turn 2 would only be good if you just need a roadblock.
I'm pretty disappointing in you two ... dismissing a really powerful interaction without even trying it is pretty poor by any brewer's standards.
In case I wasn't clear enough in my original post, I'm talking about playing ONE painter's servant maindeck because of the interaction with Ugin. I don't know why you'd need more than 1 since you can get it off stirrings and tutor it off Eye if you already have the planeswalker in hand or on board.
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List
Tomorrow i will go to a local tournament with Rg Tron.
my MD list is almost the standard ones (everything in 4×) except for the second copy of Ghost Quarter (no Ugin).
i need some advice about sideboard strategies (IN/OUT)
this is the meta: jund, junk, merfolk, affinity, bw token, mono u tron, infect.
Regards
my side is
4 nature's claim
3 combust
1 ancient grudge
1 crucible of worlds
1 spellskite (i've just one copy)
2 torpor orb
2 firespout
1 batterskull
Spine of Ish Sah+Phyrexia's Core
I mean we already search our lands, if you have Spine, go grab Core for value and a lock.