so im on the phoenix train now. bit the bullet for some arclights because ive been so enamored with the standard deck on arena. had a set of thing in the ice sitting in my binder from back when it was printed.
one question. why has AV never shown up in lists? maybe not main deck material because you wanna be fast out the gates, but it seems like something that would just bury slower interactive decks while also being 'free' the turn it is cast (and giving you 3 more cards).
FYI Wizkids has made many 28mm figures for the Ravnica D&D book, one of which is the Arclight Phoenix. I made sure to pick some up so I can annoy people tonight with them. Ka-CAWWWWWW!
bahaha, man those are awesome. totally wanna get one for my work desk.
I had AV in some of my lists last week. The idea was cast it turn 1, durdle and craft a hand, drop a threat (Thing/Kiln Fiend) turn 4 and go off. It never worked out as its simply too slow, or at least seems to be online.
I've had far more success with just chains of cantrips. 4 x Serum, Opt, Manamorphose and 2 Sleight has allowed for some very well managed turns that have resulted in wins where less cantrips, or less control (Thought Scour) would not have.
The ideal still seems to be, land a Thing/Fiend on Turn 2, ideally with Swiftspear Turn 1, and then Turn 3 go off with a Manamorphose and swing in with Thing, or they just die if you have a Fiend out.
That said, long games do happen. I had one go to Turn 13 against a Red Ritual/Hazoret/Prison deck, I was down to 11 Cards, empty hand, but that turn started with my Thing at 4 Counters, and ended with me swinging in for 13 (Thing + 2 Phoenix).
If MTGO wasnt an absolute chore to watch replay's I would go back and look at how it unfolded again.
I had AV in some of my lists last week. The idea was cast it turn 1, durdle and craft a hand, drop a threat (Thing/Kiln Fiend) turn 4 and go off. It never worked out as its simply too slow, or at least seems to be online.
I've had far more success with just chains of cantrips. 4 x Serum, Opt, Manamorphose and 2 Sleight has allowed for some very well managed turns that have resulted in wins where less cantrips, or less control (Thought Scour) would not have.
The ideal still seems to be, land a Thing/Fiend on Turn 2, ideally with Swiftspear Turn 1, and then Turn 3 go off with a Manamorphose and swing in with Thing, or they just die if you have a Fiend out.
That said, long games do happen. I had one go to Turn 13 against a Red Ritual/Hazoret/Prison deck, I was down to 11 Cards, empty hand, but that turn started with my Thing at 4 Counters, and ended with me swinging in for 13 (Thing + 2 Phoenix).
If MTGO wasnt an absolute chore to watch replay's I would go back and look at how it unfolded again.
yeah that makes sense. i guess im just thinking of those rare matchups against some fair midrange or control deck lol, i just imagine playing against a phoenix deck running 4 as jeskai. having it turn 1 is the dream, but running enough copies to see it reliably early game are slots probably better used with other stuff.
anywho i just started with ross merriam's list. i think 2-of thought scour is alright. serum visions gives you a bit of agency over the flips. so higher upside than sleight when also considering lucking out by hitting 1 or 2 phoenix. sleight is more consistent because of situations like you described, just chaining cantrips.
ive only played other people with the deck once so far, got 5 matches against hollow one(W), jeskai control(L), spirits(W), GW value (W), amulet(L). the deck is strong, but i played it pretty bad. there are a lot of small sequencing nuances with cantrips and mana usage that i messed up with; especially with manamorphose.
im already thinking about splashing a third color, but hopefully ill resist the temptation and just get reps in with a 'stock' list. hopefully
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with black i guess you could shore up some matchups by running Unmoored Ego. duress and collective brutality are alright but not haymakers.
i think white and green have more to offer overall though. ive seen some lists with a light white splash to load up on stony silence and maybe a path. after thinking about AV i entertained the idea for some temur build using Search for Tomorrow to leverage the delayed mana generation, but i couldnt see anywhere to go from that point lol. im a pretty crappy brewer. its like that joke about candy corn; you just cant help yourself from trying it every once and a while and then you immediately regret it.
i do like stuff such as become immense, various naturalize effects, life gain, etc. simple utility stuff. mutagenic growth and noxious revival aint bad either, and i could see actually having green mana to save some life giving a few percentage points.
edit: ah yeh for counterspells im thinking of trying out a single Annul for some extra game against enchantments, Delay also seems applicable, and of course some Disrupting Shoal tech straight outa bloo. i think there are enough blue cards for Commandeer as well.
Actually yes, with all the cantrips, chart and charm AND thing in the ice, disrupting shoal should be decent? Commandeer is always a hilarious blowout.
Push or Path. Honestly the worst games for me have been ones where I'm getting hit with single mana removal over and over. Yes the Phoenix may come back, but it can all come down to those early turns.
If you are on Fiend, then Bolt is also in that group.
i think white and green have more to offer overall though
Well in white you have Nahiri, the Harbinger (possibly with a big payoff like Blightsteel Colossus), Deafening Clarion, Wear // Tear, and as you mentionned, Stony and Path. it's close to black in terms of playable options.
In green there's not much to do though. Nothing that fixes the bad MUs anyway.
The third colour leads to a horrendous mana stretch anyway. Outside of an insane benefit we'd get out of a new synergistic card printed, it appears not to be worthwhile.
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The third colour leads to a horrendous mana stretch anyway. Outside of an insane benefit we'd get out of a new synergistic card printed, it appears not to be worthwhile.
yeah i definitely noticed how mana can be tight even on UR. normally UR decks lean so heavily towards blue they can just get red online when necessary, but the red requirements in UR phoenix are high. like fetching an island early on definitely bit me in the ass a few times because i only considered what i needed right then rather than what i might possibly need 2 or 3 turns later.
unrelated: so what is the deal with ral, izzet viceroy? is it like some exceptional 1-of? or is it just showing up consistently in lists because that is what people won with. he just looks like a generic 'kill dudes draw cards', so i must be missing something.
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The minus ability is one of the very few things UR can use to boost targets over 5 toughness, while the + gives you one in the hand and a phoenix (ideally) in the yard.
The ultimate literally is a 'I win' with all the cantrips.
The third colour leads to a horrendous mana stretch anyway. Outside of an insane benefit we'd get out of a new synergistic card printed, it appears not to be worthwhile.
yeah i definitely noticed how mana can be tight even on UR. normally UR decks lean so heavily towards blue they can just get red online when necessary, but the red requirements in UR phoenix are high. like fetching an island early on definitely bit me in the ass a few times because i only considered what i needed right then rather than what i might possibly need 2 or 3 turns later.
unrelated: so what is the deal with ral, izzet viceroy? is it like some exceptional 1-of? or is it just showing up consistently in lists because that is what people won with. he just looks like a generic 'kill dudes draw cards', so i must be missing something.
It won me match against Jund, in which he had double goyf and I was at 7. On turn 4 I play a Drake to chump block one of them, turn 5 play Ral to kill the other, and from there it was a top deck war. Me, drawing somewhere from 2-4 cards per turn managed to survive, ultimate Ral, and kill him handily.
unrelated: so what is the deal with ral, izzet viceroy? is it like some exceptional 1-of? or is it just showing up consistently in lists because that is what people won with. he just looks like a generic 'kill dudes draw cards', so i must be missing something.
That's pretty much it, "kill dudes draw cards". But that kind of effect is powerful in grindy matchups.
I tried 2x Keranos in the board for the more fair matches. It's actually a really nice touch. There's so much cantripping that it doesn't feel hopeless digging for it when you hit the 5 mana.
2x Spell pierce has felt much better than the 2x dispels. I think the deck is better off going 2x spell pierce and 1x dispel.
I have to ask---but what exactly is this deck playing surgical for? I can't see it doing much outside of dredge. Ross posted an Izzet sideboard guide but it won't be viewable for a month or so. Kind of frustrating since I'd like to see how to go about it.
I have to ask---but what exactly is this deck playing surgical for? I can't see it doing much outside of dredge. Ross posted an Izzet sideboard guide but it won't be viewable for a month or so. Kind of frustrating since I'd like to see how to go about it.
I have to agree. It seems like the decks it would be good against, it's better to just race. The creature based GY decks get wrecked by Thing in the Ice anyway, and as above, Surgical does nothing against a KCI engine and competent pilot.
The mirror is going to be a thing. It's also a card VS combo decks (KCI and Storm come to mind) and very very rarely a counterplay vs opponents' surgicals in order to save your Phoenixes.
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Surgical is free, a spell, and often times will hit a target that while not critical to the opponents plan could be relevant to stopping yours. I've hit Push before, and suddenly my opponent has no removal in hand for my 2nd Thing.
yeah i figure its because its an instant that is 'free'. its not especially good, particularly without any discard or land destruction. in my experience (playing jeskai/UW) its even marginal against kci because you really wanna be hitting krark-clan ironworks itself lest they just work around it with stupid rules interactions. also UR phoenix isnt playing snapcaster, which makes surgical so much better.
in terms of spells that hit the GY its slim pickings, and pretty much nonexistent in UR. ravenous trap is pretty good, but not all GY decks are operating in a manner that will turn it on consistently.
as for ral, izzet viceroy: a bomb for fairish matchups makes sense. ive heard good things about it; such as it out-performing jace in blue moon decks. its ubiquity in phoenix lists though speaks of either outstanding power level, or its just pretty good and a bunch of people are playing it because its new. one thing i do like is that it has a beacon bolt attached. the whole counting exiled cards thing. crackling drake probably isnt even playable without it.
It plays quite a bit different compared to the blue/red as you can imagine. Having 17-20 "Burn" spells, and sharing a similar sideboard I thought it might have someplace in burn as well or.. some place in the middle ?
Not quite sure where this deck fits but it is really fun to play.
i just wanna say that UR phoenix really showcases the power of serum visions. ive never played a deck that could use it better, and with access to faithless looting i would speculate it uses it better than gifts storm.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
one question. why has AV never shown up in lists? maybe not main deck material because you wanna be fast out the gates, but it seems like something that would just bury slower interactive decks while also being 'free' the turn it is cast (and giving you 3 more cards).
bahaha, man those are awesome. totally wanna get one for my work desk.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I've had far more success with just chains of cantrips. 4 x Serum, Opt, Manamorphose and 2 Sleight has allowed for some very well managed turns that have resulted in wins where less cantrips, or less control (Thought Scour) would not have.
The ideal still seems to be, land a Thing/Fiend on Turn 2, ideally with Swiftspear Turn 1, and then Turn 3 go off with a Manamorphose and swing in with Thing, or they just die if you have a Fiend out.
That said, long games do happen. I had one go to Turn 13 against a Red Ritual/Hazoret/Prison deck, I was down to 11 Cards, empty hand, but that turn started with my Thing at 4 Counters, and ended with me swinging in for 13 (Thing + 2 Phoenix).
If MTGO wasnt an absolute chore to watch replay's I would go back and look at how it unfolded again.
Spirits
yeah that makes sense. i guess im just thinking of those rare matchups against some fair midrange or control deck lol, i just imagine playing against a phoenix deck running 4 as jeskai. having it turn 1 is the dream, but running enough copies to see it reliably early game are slots probably better used with other stuff.
anywho i just started with ross merriam's list. i think 2-of thought scour is alright. serum visions gives you a bit of agency over the flips. so higher upside than sleight when also considering lucking out by hitting 1 or 2 phoenix. sleight is more consistent because of situations like you described, just chaining cantrips.
ive only played other people with the deck once so far, got 5 matches against hollow one(W), jeskai control(L), spirits(W), GW value (W), amulet(L). the deck is strong, but i played it pretty bad. there are a lot of small sequencing nuances with cantrips and mana usage that i messed up with; especially with manamorphose.
im already thinking about splashing a third color, but hopefully ill resist the temptation and just get reps in with a 'stock' list. hopefully
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)i think white and green have more to offer overall though. ive seen some lists with a light white splash to load up on stony silence and maybe a path. after thinking about AV i entertained the idea for some temur build using Search for Tomorrow to leverage the delayed mana generation, but i couldnt see anywhere to go from that point lol. im a pretty crappy brewer. its like that joke about candy corn; you just cant help yourself from trying it every once and a while and then you immediately regret it.
i do like stuff such as become immense, various naturalize effects, life gain, etc. simple utility stuff. mutagenic growth and noxious revival aint bad either, and i could see actually having green mana to save some life giving a few percentage points.
edit: ah yeh for counterspells im thinking of trying out a single Annul for some extra game against enchantments, Delay also seems applicable, and of course some Disrupting Shoal tech straight outa bloo. i think there are enough blue cards for Commandeer as well.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
If you are on Fiend, then Bolt is also in that group.
Spirits
Well in white you have Nahiri, the Harbinger (possibly with a big payoff like Blightsteel Colossus), Deafening Clarion, Wear // Tear, and as you mentionned, Stony and Path. it's close to black in terms of playable options.
In green there's not much to do though. Nothing that fixes the bad MUs anyway.
The third colour leads to a horrendous mana stretch anyway. Outside of an insane benefit we'd get out of a new synergistic card printed, it appears not to be worthwhile.
yeah i definitely noticed how mana can be tight even on UR. normally UR decks lean so heavily towards blue they can just get red online when necessary, but the red requirements in UR phoenix are high. like fetching an island early on definitely bit me in the ass a few times because i only considered what i needed right then rather than what i might possibly need 2 or 3 turns later.
unrelated: so what is the deal with ral, izzet viceroy? is it like some exceptional 1-of? or is it just showing up consistently in lists because that is what people won with. he just looks like a generic 'kill dudes draw cards', so i must be missing something.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The ultimate literally is a 'I win' with all the cantrips.
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That's pretty much it, "kill dudes draw cards". But that kind of effect is powerful in grindy matchups.
2x Spell pierce has felt much better than the 2x dispels. I think the deck is better off going 2x spell pierce and 1x dispel.
I have to ask---but what exactly is this deck playing surgical for? I can't see it doing much outside of dredge. Ross posted an Izzet sideboard guide but it won't be viewable for a month or so. Kind of frustrating since I'd like to see how to go about it.
I have to agree. It seems like the decks it would be good against, it's better to just race. The creature based GY decks get wrecked by Thing in the Ice anyway, and as above, Surgical does nothing against a KCI engine and competent pilot.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That's often enough to take the game.
Spirits
in terms of spells that hit the GY its slim pickings, and pretty much nonexistent in UR. ravenous trap is pretty good, but not all GY decks are operating in a manner that will turn it on consistently.
as for ral, izzet viceroy: a bomb for fairish matchups makes sense. ive heard good things about it; such as it out-performing jace in blue moon decks. its ubiquity in phoenix lists though speaks of either outstanding power level, or its just pretty good and a bunch of people are playing it because its new. one thing i do like is that it has a beacon bolt attached. the whole counting exiled cards thing. crackling drake probably isnt even playable without it.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Bedlam Reveler
4x Arclight Phoenix
4x lightning bolt
4x lava spike
4x fiery temper
2x gut shot
1x flame jab
2x risk factor
1x Maximize velocity
4x faithless looting
4x manamorphose
4x Tormenting voice
17x mountain
1x Ramunap Ruins
Side
3x Ravenous Trap
3x Blood Moon
2x shattering spree
2x skullcrack
3x Eidolon of the great Revel
2x Dismember
It plays quite a bit different compared to the blue/red as you can imagine. Having 17-20 "Burn" spells, and sharing a similar sideboard I thought it might have someplace in burn as well or.. some place in the middle ?
Not quite sure where this deck fits but it is really fun to play.
The R version certainly is viable, very explosive and does play an interesting game between burn and creature aggro and combo.
Spirits
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits