I am not sure how to deal with bridge or boggles out side of worship. I put in 3 Leyline because I was struggling with Scapeshift. What do you think about going down the leylines, +1 Worship and +2 Disenchants or Detention Spheres?
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
I am not sure how to deal with bridge or boggles out side of worship. I put in 3 Leyline because I was struggling with Scapeshift. What do you think about going down the leylines, +1 Worship and +2 Disenchants or Detention Spheres?
Before playing nevermore i'd go and play Meddling Mage...
That is spicy. I just realized I don’t have echoing truth in paper, so I might run 2x meddling mage.
Also, how do you guys feel about image. I am thinking about dropping it for another Geist in the main. I was reading Tom anderson’s article and he almost always sided our image. It makes me wonder if Geist as a hedge would be better than hoping for double captain.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Before playing nevermore i'd go and play Meddling Mage...
That is spicy. I just realized I don’t have echoing truth in paper, so I might run 2x meddling mage.
Also, how do you guys feel about image. I am thinking about dropping it for another Geist in the main. I was reading Tom anderson’s article and he almost always sided our image. It makes me wonder if Geist as a hedge would be better than hoping for double captain.
Link?
@Everyone
So does anyone doing well actually ever play Herald? I never see it in winning lists.
So i tried to test magic_aids's idea of spectral procession today but was not allowed to.
Match one one i get smashed by dredgevine, lost game one because turn 2 on the play remorseful cleric isn't good enough, and game 2 my opponent destroyed me with turn 2 double vengevine followed by the 3rd and 4th the turn after. That deck is quite obnoxious...
Match 2 got paired vs some kid.
Match 3 mirror but did not draw the sorcery, still won but i wish i could have tested the card
Interesting night with Spirits 3-1 at a 20 person tournament, so not hugely insightful, but I ranched 2 Ponza decks, entirely thanks to Vial. I won with a Vial and 0 lands in play. Got beaten like a dog by Elves and crushed Storm. All pretty much as expected. If you don't find Settle, Echoing Truth and/or Worship, Elves feels unbeatable.
Deck felt great, overall. Having 7 more cmc 2 creatures makes Vial a much more powerful choice. Still tinkering with the sideboard, but I'm not doing anything amazingly exciting.
Before playing nevermore i'd go and play Meddling Mage...
That is spicy. I just realized I don’t have echoing truth in paper, so I might run 2x meddling mage.
Also, how do you guys feel about image. I am thinking about dropping it for another Geist in the main. I was reading Tom anderson’s article and he almost always sided our image. It makes me wonder if Geist as a hedge would be better than hoping for double captain.
Phantasmal Image is not nearly as good in spirits as it is in humans. Humans has lots of ETB effects (Lieutenant, Champ, Reflector Mage, Freebooter), so even when you're playing against heavily interactive decks it has an impact on the board even if it's going to die soon. Spirits relies on more static effects (ie. Lord pump effects) or "sacrifice spirit: do something to annoy your opponent" effects, so Image dying to spot removal is a lot worse for spirits. In spirits it's one of the weaker cards, so it makes sense to side it out when you know what sideboard cards you should be bringing in. I don't like Image much, but just because you're siding it out in most post-board games doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be in your maindeck - pre-board games are more about doing *your* thing as quickly as possible, whereas post-board games the focus will likely shift to stop-them-from-doing-their-thing-until-you-can-do-your-thing.
Geist of Saint Traft is a powerful individual card, but doesn't fit with the general "team spirit" of spirits that's all about a synergizing group of flyers. The more copies of Geist you have, the more likely you're going to draw that dead 2nd copy.
Geist is a one of in UW at most to me. Bant makes better use of the card as hitting it off of Collected Company just seems like gas to me.
I'm mainly interested in the UW version as I feel there is more room for innovation, and possibly a small splash of a 3rd color that could open up further options for the deck in this regard.
I've actually attempted playing Esper a bit with the prospect of cutting off cards that would be problematic from our opponents hand, making the likelyhood of strong difficult to remove board that much more likely from the only answer they may have to a sequence in my hand. Its nice to be able to thoughseize someone when I don't hit a mausoleum wanderer or a vial.
The other thing I've considered is splashing red. I like the idea of having bolt possibly. It would strain the mana base more, but I feel like the benefits of bolt in the deck would be absolutely fantastic against faster decks like elves and humans. You would be able to hit mana dorks and early foundation plays that would prevent them from building their board. Also being an instant is wonderful for obvious reasons in the deck, as well as simply closing out games when something like ensnaring bridge comes down and cuts us off from finishing our opponent off.
Geist is a one of in UW at most to me. Bant makes better use of the card as hitting it off of Collected Company just seems like gas to me.
I'm mainly interested in the UW version as I feel there is more room for innovation, and possibly a small splash of a 3rd color that could open up further options for the deck in this regard.
I've actually attempted playing Esper a bit with the prospect of cutting off cards that would be problematic from our opponents hand, making the likelyhood of strong difficult to remove board that much more likely from the only answer they may have to a sequence in my hand. Its nice to be able to thoughseize someone when I don't hit a mausoleum wanderer or a vial.
The other thing I've considered is splashing red. I like the idea of having bolt possibly. It would strain the mana base more, but I feel like the benefits of bolt in the deck would be absolutely fantastic against faster decks like elves and humans. You would be able to hit mana dorks and early foundation plays that would prevent them from building their board. Also being an instant is wonderful for obvious reasons in the deck, as well as simply closing out games when something like ensnaring bridge comes down and cuts us off from finishing our opponent off.
Has anyone considered running a pair of Angel's Grace in the sideboard?
This deck has worked out really well for me and the losses it has had are almost always games that have turned into races where I have been one combat phase away from smashing my opponent for a game ending 10+ damage.
Since our creatures are flying and often hexproof, our creature based opponents (Elves, Bogles, etc.) are often forced to sell out on their own combat phase to try to keep up as they have few ways to stop our creatures during our combat. Angel's Grace can stop that as well as combos such as Storm or Scapeshift, delaying them at least a turn if not longer (which I find is usually all I need). It can even stop that game ending burn spell against a red deck letting me come back with critical damage on my turn. Reading some of the recent comments seems to support that these decks can be problematic and this seems like a catch all solution.
I am going to try this out anyway. I will cut one of the two copies of Worship and probably one of my counter spells to make room. I feel like my opponents always board in hard against Worship anyway (in the relevant match ups) so I will keep the one in to keep them honest but can afford to lose the other.
Before playing nevermore i'd go and play Meddling Mage...
That is spicy. I just realized I don’t have echoing truth in paper, so I might run 2x meddling mage.
Also, how do you guys feel about image. I am thinking about dropping it for another Geist in the main. I was reading Tom anderson’s article and he almost always sided our image. It makes me wonder if Geist as a hedge would be better than hoping for double captain.
Link?
@Everyone
So does anyone doing well actually ever play Herald? I never see it in winning lists.
I played in a PPTQ yesterday and went 4-1-1 and top 8'd where I lost in the quarters to Jeskai control. Deck felt great and had a lot of play. Here is my list.
Match 1 and 2 were against Grixis Shadow. Took the first match 2-0 with just better tempo and RIP in game two really made his life hard. Lost the second 1-2. I misboarded and thought I was the control route, but I should have been beat down. Live and learn. Match 3 was against Whir of Invention. He never got going in game 1 and all I saw was a lot of artifacts. I brought in Stony, played it on turn 2 and was swinging away and then managed to snag a bridge with Queller and that sealed it. Match 4 was RU thing in the ice. I won 2-1 and had paths when I needed to deal with Thing. This was a very fun matchup. Favorite play of the tourney was Thing with one counter, on my attack he plays opt. With the counter trigger on the stack, I play path. In response he plays electrolyze causing a new trigger. After a bit of thinking, I play queller on my path. Thing flips, bounces the queller and I get to path it leaving an open board. Judge watched the whole thing and was nodding in approval. Sadly I ended up losing that game (game winning card was my next draw). Match 5 was against Humans and got there 2-1. ID'd Match 6. I didn't drop a game 1 throughout the swiss.
The quarters just sucked. I had to mull down to 5, and still was close to taking game one. Opponent played a verdict and mostly tapped out. Next turn I slam a geist and thought I was in good shape. He has a Ajani Vengeant in play, I swing at Ajani with the angel and him with geist (had a hierarch in play at this point so snap wasn't an option) and he paths the angel and then played Blessed Alliance. From there I pretty much fell apart. Game 2 he just had all the answers and I couldn't get more than 2 land until turn 6, but it was too late by then.
I am not sure about meddling mage. Never got to play it. I might just go more worship and stony or maybe Kira.
I've been having some success with tallowisp (thought not to the point that I'm convinced).
Basically, cut paths, selfless, and image from classic spirits to add 3x oppressive rays and 3x curious obsession.
Rays is a powerful early play, generally better than path against an early vine, guide, or Noble. Obsession is a surprisingly good curiosity.
These cards, in combination with the tallowisp engine, help with spirit's problems against fast aggro and flood. However, they leave us weaker to traditional wraths and certain creatures (Baral, TITI).
My big comment is this decks plays at instant speed a lot. Adding sorcery speed, soft answers is not where this deck wants to be. Tallowisp is such a weak card in comparison to other spirits we have.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
It's possible that one rays should be replaced by a copy of guard duty, for cards like death's shadow and wurmcoil. The reprinted armadillo cloak has been reasonable out of the board.
Bant getting love, between Riley Knight and one copy making 10th at the Modern Classic.
RE: Riley's article, I think he misses some points.
Firstly, Bant has faster starts and better late game recovery, but UW is much more powerful in the mid-game once you have 2-3 lands + Vial. With 2 lands and a mana dork, Bant is casting mostly 1 spell a turn, whereas Vial on 3 with 2-3 lands is essentially always able to cast two spells a turn.
Secondly, UW is way more resilient to mana screw. Vial on 2 allows you to cast half your creatures with no lands. I had to d that 2x last week.
Thirdly, UW actually has a MUCH higher Spirit count and so can be much more aggressive in the go-wide. I think I want 31-2 aggressive, synergistic creatures (20-1 lands, 8 spells) than 23 spirits + 5 mana dorks (22 lands, 8 spells, especially if Bant isn't running 3 GoST main.
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
There's definitely nothing wrong with the MODO shuffler; like nearly any computational randomness it's based on significantly more arbitrary variables than the average IRL card shuffle.
If you hit the right mix of lands and spells the whole tournament that means you were running hot, as your opponents likely didn't.
Regardless, congrats on the finish. I have a couple questions about your list.
Firstly, how has obsession been for you? Which creatures are most important to protecting the enchanted one?
Also, what is your reasoning for playing deprive over unified will? Nearly all successful lists choose will, as far as I can tell.
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1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Phantasmal Image
4 Rattlechains
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Drogskol Captain
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Spell Queller
Spells - 8
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
3 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
3 Windswept Heath
2 Damping Sphere
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Unified Will
1 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Worship
I am not sure how to deal with bridge or boggles out side of worship. I put in 3 Leyline because I was struggling with Scapeshift. What do you think about going down the leylines, +1 Worship and +2 Disenchants or Detention Spheres?
-3 Leyline of Sanctity
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
That is spicy. I just realized I don’t have echoing truth in paper, so I might run 2x meddling mage.
Also, how do you guys feel about image. I am thinking about dropping it for another Geist in the main. I was reading Tom anderson’s article and he almost always sided our image. It makes me wonder if Geist as a hedge would be better than hoping for double captain.
Link?
@Everyone
So does anyone doing well actually ever play Herald? I never see it in winning lists.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Match one one i get smashed by dredgevine, lost game one because turn 2 on the play remorseful cleric isn't good enough, and game 2 my opponent destroyed me with turn 2 double vengevine followed by the 3rd and 4th the turn after. That deck is quite obnoxious...
Match 2 got paired vs some kid.
Match 3 mirror but did not draw the sorcery, still won but i wish i could have tested the card
Deck felt great, overall. Having 7 more cmc 2 creatures makes Vial a much more powerful choice. Still tinkering with the sideboard, but I'm not doing anything amazingly exciting.
4 mausoleum wanderer
4 rattlechains
4 supreme phantom
4 drogskol captain
4 spell queller
3 selfless spirit
2 phantasmal image
2 Remorseful Cleric
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Echoing Truth
2 Azorius Charm
4 aether vial
Lands (21)
4 flooded strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 hallowed fountain
3 island
1 plains
4 seachrome coast
2 mutavault
1 moorland haunt
1 cavern of souls
2 Damping Sphere
2 Worship
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 rest in peace
2 stony silence
2 Negate
1 Unified Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Settle the Wreckage
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Video:
UW Spirits - Modern - August 16th, 2018
Decklist:
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/SJeI9hSQUX
He said that maybe a No-Vial version could be interesting, using 24 lands with more disruption.
Phantasmal Image is not nearly as good in spirits as it is in humans. Humans has lots of ETB effects (Lieutenant, Champ, Reflector Mage, Freebooter), so even when you're playing against heavily interactive decks it has an impact on the board even if it's going to die soon. Spirits relies on more static effects (ie. Lord pump effects) or "sacrifice spirit: do something to annoy your opponent" effects, so Image dying to spot removal is a lot worse for spirits. In spirits it's one of the weaker cards, so it makes sense to side it out when you know what sideboard cards you should be bringing in. I don't like Image much, but just because you're siding it out in most post-board games doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be in your maindeck - pre-board games are more about doing *your* thing as quickly as possible, whereas post-board games the focus will likely shift to stop-them-from-doing-their-thing-until-you-can-do-your-thing.
Geist of Saint Traft is a powerful individual card, but doesn't fit with the general "team spirit" of spirits that's all about a synergizing group of flyers. The more copies of Geist you have, the more likely you're going to draw that dead 2nd copy.
I'm mainly interested in the UW version as I feel there is more room for innovation, and possibly a small splash of a 3rd color that could open up further options for the deck in this regard.
I've actually attempted playing Esper a bit with the prospect of cutting off cards that would be problematic from our opponents hand, making the likelyhood of strong difficult to remove board that much more likely from the only answer they may have to a sequence in my hand. Its nice to be able to thoughseize someone when I don't hit a mausoleum wanderer or a vial.
The other thing I've considered is splashing red. I like the idea of having bolt possibly. It would strain the mana base more, but I feel like the benefits of bolt in the deck would be absolutely fantastic against faster decks like elves and humans. You would be able to hit mana dorks and early foundation plays that would prevent them from building their board. Also being an instant is wonderful for obvious reasons in the deck, as well as simply closing out games when something like ensnaring bridge comes down and cuts us off from finishing our opponent off.
I'm mainly interested in the UW version as I feel there is more room for innovation, and possibly a small splash of a 3rd color that could open up further options for the deck in this regard.
I've actually attempted playing Esper a bit with the prospect of cutting off cards that would be problematic from our opponents hand, making the likelyhood of strong difficult to remove board that much more likely from the only answer they may have to a sequence in my hand. Its nice to be able to thoughseize someone when I don't hit a mausoleum wanderer or a vial.
The other thing I've considered is splashing red. I like the idea of having bolt possibly. It would strain the mana base more, but I feel like the benefits of bolt in the deck would be absolutely fantastic against faster decks like elves and humans. You would be able to hit mana dorks and early foundation plays that would prevent them from building their board. Also being an instant is wonderful for obvious reasons in the deck, as well as simply closing out games when something like ensnaring bridge comes down and cuts us off from finishing our opponent off.
This deck has worked out really well for me and the losses it has had are almost always games that have turned into races where I have been one combat phase away from smashing my opponent for a game ending 10+ damage.
Since our creatures are flying and often hexproof, our creature based opponents (Elves, Bogles, etc.) are often forced to sell out on their own combat phase to try to keep up as they have few ways to stop our creatures during our combat. Angel's Grace can stop that as well as combos such as Storm or Scapeshift, delaying them at least a turn if not longer (which I find is usually all I need). It can even stop that game ending burn spell against a red deck letting me come back with critical damage on my turn. Reading some of the recent comments seems to support that these decks can be problematic and this seems like a catch all solution.
I am going to try this out anyway. I will cut one of the two copies of Worship and probably one of my counter spells to make room. I feel like my opponents always board in hard against Worship anyway (in the relevant match ups) so I will keep the one in to keep them honest but can afford to lose the other.
SCG Bant Spirits
I played in a PPTQ yesterday and went 4-1-1 and top 8'd where I lost in the quarters to Jeskai control. Deck felt great and had a lot of play. Here is my list.
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rattlechains
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Drogskol Captain
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Spell Queller
Spells - 8
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
Lands - 22
3 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
3 Windswept Heath
2 Damping Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Unified Will
1 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Meddling Mage
1 Worship
Match 1 and 2 were against Grixis Shadow. Took the first match 2-0 with just better tempo and RIP in game two really made his life hard. Lost the second 1-2. I misboarded and thought I was the control route, but I should have been beat down. Live and learn. Match 3 was against Whir of Invention. He never got going in game 1 and all I saw was a lot of artifacts. I brought in Stony, played it on turn 2 and was swinging away and then managed to snag a bridge with Queller and that sealed it. Match 4 was RU thing in the ice. I won 2-1 and had paths when I needed to deal with Thing. This was a very fun matchup. Favorite play of the tourney was Thing with one counter, on my attack he plays opt. With the counter trigger on the stack, I play path. In response he plays electrolyze causing a new trigger. After a bit of thinking, I play queller on my path. Thing flips, bounces the queller and I get to path it leaving an open board. Judge watched the whole thing and was nodding in approval. Sadly I ended up losing that game (game winning card was my next draw). Match 5 was against Humans and got there 2-1. ID'd Match 6. I didn't drop a game 1 throughout the swiss.
The quarters just sucked. I had to mull down to 5, and still was close to taking game one. Opponent played a verdict and mostly tapped out. Next turn I slam a geist and thought I was in good shape. He has a Ajani Vengeant in play, I swing at Ajani with the angel and him with geist (had a hierarch in play at this point so snap wasn't an option) and he paths the angel and then played Blessed Alliance. From there I pretty much fell apart. Game 2 he just had all the answers and I couldn't get more than 2 land until turn 6, but it was too late by then.
I am not sure about meddling mage. Never got to play it. I might just go more worship and stony or maybe Kira.
Basically, cut paths, selfless, and image from classic spirits to add 3x oppressive rays and 3x curious obsession.
Rays is a powerful early play, generally better than path against an early vine, guide, or Noble. Obsession is a surprisingly good curiosity.
These cards, in combination with the tallowisp engine, help with spirit's problems against fast aggro and flood. However, they leave us weaker to traditional wraths and certain creatures (Baral, TITI).
Thoughts?
I think the actual question is if it's worth the deck-building cost. Rays is certainly weaker than path, but free, tribal tutoring might justify it.
Tallowisp spirits:
- 4x Noble hierarch
- 4x mausoleum wanderer
- 4x supreme Phantasm
- 4x rattlechains
- 4x tallowisp
- 4x drogskul Captain
- 4x spell queller
- 4x collected company
- 3x oppressive rays
- 3x curious obsession
- 22 land stock manabase
It's possible that one rays should be replaced by a copy of guard duty, for cards like death's shadow and wurmcoil. The reprinted armadillo cloak has been reasonable out of the board.
RE: Riley's article, I think he misses some points.
Firstly, Bant has faster starts and better late game recovery, but UW is much more powerful in the mid-game once you have 2-3 lands + Vial. With 2 lands and a mana dork, Bant is casting mostly 1 spell a turn, whereas Vial on 3 with 2-3 lands is essentially always able to cast two spells a turn.
Secondly, UW is way more resilient to mana screw. Vial on 2 allows you to cast half your creatures with no lands. I had to d that 2x last week.
Thirdly, UW actually has a MUCH higher Spirit count and so can be much more aggressive in the go-wide. I think I want 31-2 aggressive, synergistic creatures (20-1 lands, 8 spells) than 23 spirits + 5 mana dorks (22 lands, 8 spells, especially if Bant isn't running 3 GoST main.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
If you hit the right mix of lands and spells the whole tournament that means you were running hot, as your opponents likely didn't.
Regardless, congrats on the finish. I have a couple questions about your list.
Firstly, how has obsession been for you? Which creatures are most important to protecting the enchanted one?
Also, what is your reasoning for playing deprive over unified will? Nearly all successful lists choose will, as far as I can tell.