Besides the Splash-discussion, I would like to share my thoughts on Pelt Collector. I tested two of them in Addition to the 4 Experiments plus 2 Dryads and Renegades.
My first Impression actually is not really good. So far, the Collector feels to me like a worse Experiment, mostly because the Regeneration seems more relevant to me than Trample. Also, the 2 Counters on Experiment are more easily done than three on Collector - regardless, both of them often get removed before reaching the second Counter, so Experiment regenerates more often than Collector tramples. The "Die-Evolve" on Collector feels more narrow than Toughness-Evolve on Experiment, which happened much more often.
Of Course this is just the first Impression, maybe it's also matchup-biased (I did not keep track of my opponents decks). What do you think so far?
Regarding grinding in the Black splash discussion, I can really recommend Lead the Stampede. I Play 2 out of the Sideboard, and they can be absurd against Control and Midrange.
I haven't tested him yet, but this is what I think: Experiment One has a pretty relevant ability that makes him harder to kill, which is a big plus. It is also not that hard to give him 2 counters most of the time.
Pelt Collector can get natural trample, which is still good, but not as good as regeneration. However, the fact that creatures dying gives him counters makes him less of an awful topdeck than Experiment One is. If you already have one or two creatures on the board, Pelt Collector can still be threatening where Experiment is one of the worst cards to draw.
This is obviously not tested, and this also depends on the matchup.
Narnam Renegade gets slightly worse, because of the power-only trigger. Other than that, we don't really play other creatures with a higher toughness (except for some singleton Leatherback Baloth that some people include).
I haven't tested him yet, but this is what I think: Experiment One has a pretty relevant ability that makes him harder to kill, which is a big plus. It is also not that hard to give him 2 counters most of the time.
I agree, the Regen has been quite relevant for me in multiple cases.
I can see going for a 3/3 Split together with 4 Dryad Militants.
I'm running this list for a while now and it's been quite successful in 2-man queues and friendly leagues lately. The sideboard tries to cover as much matchups as possible, I've been tuning it for a while and I've settled for the list.
Well, as I said I am happy with the list, 3 playsets of 1-drops lets me be aggressive as well as be defensive when needed (in terms providing early blockers against burn, humans, and giving me more creatures before a Liliana of the Veil hits the board)
The problem is I still have almost no game against bogles. The best I can hope for is turn 1 fetch into Narnam Renegade, turn 2 Rancor and hold up mana for Natural State, and then hope to have Deglamers and the 2nd Natural Statein hand for the following turns. As you might have already guessed, this happens not that often, which led me thinking of splashing a color just for the sideboard. I am thinking of going white with 2 Temple Gardens in the main. I don't want to lose the aggressive part of our game plan, so 3+ cmc cards are not in my radar, except from 1 card that you'll see soon.
Here are the cards I've been thinking of, they are not just for bogles, but the ones I thought to appear in a GW sideboard:
Blessed Alliance - Best option against bogles, good against humans (can make them sac, or untap 2 creatures to block)
Spellskite - 2nd best option against bogles that I could think of, might be a bit slow if we want to protect it against Path to Exile, might be good against burn also
Dromoka's Command - Good against burn and maybe sometimes against bogles, fight is also relevant against spirits, humans, pyromancer
Knight of Autumn - A very versatile card overall, can be used against burn, humans, spirits, maybe even more? A bit slow against bogles, and without a flicker effect it's not enough against them
What do you guys think about a white splash in sideboard? I feel like white offers the most, and also the best option against bogles, but maybe black and red have some good options too? I remember there have been some debates on going Gx for better sideboard options but I don't remember if there was a card by card evaluation.
And what matchups do you guys struggle the most against?
If Bogles is really a problem. Back to Nature handles them just fine. Although it is narrow, and should only be added to the sideboard when there are many Bogles players in your area. You can also test if your manabase can handle the cmc of Fracturing Gust - the Bogles players in my area fear this card.
Back to Nature is a very fine solution, one that I've used from time to time in my sideboard, but I think its uses are so narrow. What I had in mind was cards that give me a better game against bogles as well having some other uses in some other matchups. The thing is I only play on mtgo, so my meta is something like this.
Definitely bring in at least two Spellskite, some Bogles players don't even have path to exile in their main deck because they fit in white leylines. Their creatures are naked as long as the spellskite stands alive. And if they do have pte, we can sometimes use vines to protect the skite. It would also have some limited use against Hardened Scales affinity.
My sideboard not really good for mtgo. It's just fine-tuned for our small FNM's.
Burn and Bridgevine are the two decks you would encounter here so... 2 Relic, Ooze, Ratchet Bomb, and Echoing truth go in against Bridgevine. // 2 Spellskite, Witchbane, and Pulse go in for Burn.
Thanks. I used to have a creeping corrosion there, but removed it because traditional affinity is almost extinct over here.
There are still a few Scaled affinity players... spellskite and trygon help keep their ravager under control.. as long as skite and trygon don't die to walking ballista activations.
The first match I joined the queue with the white sideboard splash I was paired with Bogles, which was funny. I lost game 1, then game 2 on turn 3 I played an untapped Temple Garden, passed the turn with 3 mana open and the opponent didn't attack on turn 3, I killed them on turn 4 I didn't know Blessed Alliance scared them this much. Unfortunately though I had to leave game 3 for a real life issue. For the Stony Silence part, it deals with hardened scales affinity, affinity, and KCI (however they still can improvise and get their Ensnaring Bridge), but I think combinations of 2x Natural State, 2x Deglamer, 2x Pithing Needle, and 2+1x Dismember can deal with them anyhow. By the way is Damping Sphere any good against KCI?
As a last point, I am planning to add 1x Horizon Canopy which I found in a box after finishing a friendly league 4-1 with the mono green list. My only loss was against Ad Nauseam.
What are you splashing U for in your build?
Could you post your main aswell?
I splash U for Stubborn Denial. Please do note my list is very much tailored to my local FNM.
Thrashing Brontodon - I use this smaller guy instead of Baloth or Champion. It's because the Burn deck I often play against brings in Ensnaring Bridge game 2, and also the Bant good stuffs deck that often shows up there brings in Worship game 2. Two Brontodon and 3 Stubborn denial, gives me 5 main deck outs against those cards.
Greenwheel Liberator - yeah, he can just be bolted.. but it does not happen all the time. And when he sticks, he turns on ferocious for denial
Currently have no Dismember in main or side, because Dismember is pretty bad against Bridgevine and Burn, and those two are the decks you would often encounter around here. Also have no manlands because I want Dungrove Elder to be at full power.
Hooting Mandrills - this guy is too slow, even with 9 fetch lands in the deck
Delver of Secrets - not enough instant and sorcery to consistently flip him
Hidden Herbalists - I tried several times before giving up. It requires magical chrismas land hands for him to be good here.
This deck looks super solid. I know you said you're not changing anything in the maindeck, but I have to ask: have you tested Greenwheel Liberator in this shell?
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
Your 'budget' stompy seems to cost more than most non-budget (nonfetch) versions.
Creeping Corrosion in maindeck? Just outright dead cards if your opponent isn't playing artifacts?
vague answers...anyways appreciate it man.
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
Vague? I am being very specific about Creeping Corrosion - it's fine sideboard card but you'd have to be sure that the overwhelming majority of your meta is artifact based for CC to be more than a dead draw. Like I'm seriously wondering if you meant to type Collected Company or something.
And the budget comment wasn't vague either. It's quite straightforward. Your deck with Pelt Collectors, Thorn Lieutenants, and Temple Gardens has a higher pricepoint than the primer baseline, which makes it unusual to describe your permutation as 'budget' when it's pricier than its inspiration.
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My first Impression actually is not really good. So far, the Collector feels to me like a worse Experiment, mostly because the Regeneration seems more relevant to me than Trample. Also, the 2 Counters on Experiment are more easily done than three on Collector - regardless, both of them often get removed before reaching the second Counter, so Experiment regenerates more often than Collector tramples. The "Die-Evolve" on Collector feels more narrow than Toughness-Evolve on Experiment, which happened much more often.
Of Course this is just the first Impression, maybe it's also matchup-biased (I did not keep track of my opponents decks). What do you think so far?
Regarding grinding in the Black splash discussion, I can really recommend Lead the Stampede. I Play 2 out of the Sideboard, and they can be absurd against Control and Midrange.
Experiment One has a pretty relevant ability that makes him harder to kill, which is a big plus. It is also not that hard to give him 2 counters most of the time.
Pelt Collector can get natural trample, which is still good, but not as good as regeneration. However, the fact that creatures dying gives him counters makes him less of an awful topdeck than Experiment One is. If you already have one or two creatures on the board, Pelt Collector can still be threatening where Experiment is one of the worst cards to draw.
This is obviously not tested, and this also depends on the matchup.
Other thoughts: Rancor, Dungrove Elder, Groundbreaker and Scavenging Ooze get slightly better, since it makes the dying-power trigger more easy to happen (although Dungrove is hard to kill).
Narnam Renegade gets slightly worse, because of the power-only trigger. Other than that, we don't really play other creatures with a higher toughness (except for some singleton Leatherback Baloth that some people include).
Experiment One can dodge some removal, but is equal to Pelt Collector when it comes to Path to Exile and Terminus, the latter of which has become more relevant recently.
I agree, the Regen has been quite relevant for me in multiple cases.
I can see going for a 3/3 Split together with 4 Dryad Militants.
4 Experiment One
4 Dryad Militant
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Avatar of the Resolute
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Steel Leaf Champion
Spells
4 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Dismember
4 Rancor
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Treetop Village
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Damping Sphere
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Natural State
2 Deglamer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dismember
1 Torpor Orb
1 Prey Upon
1 Feed the Clan
Well, as I said I am happy with the list, 3 playsets of 1-drops lets me be aggressive as well as be defensive when needed (in terms providing early blockers against burn, humans, and giving me more creatures before a Liliana of the Veil hits the board)
The problem is I still have almost no game against bogles. The best I can hope for is turn 1 fetch into Narnam Renegade, turn 2 Rancor and hold up mana for Natural State, and then hope to have Deglamers and the 2nd Natural Statein hand for the following turns. As you might have already guessed, this happens not that often, which led me thinking of splashing a color just for the sideboard. I am thinking of going white with 2 Temple Gardens in the main. I don't want to lose the aggressive part of our game plan, so 3+ cmc cards are not in my radar, except from 1 card that you'll see soon.
Here are the cards I've been thinking of, they are not just for bogles, but the ones I thought to appear in a GW sideboard:
What do you guys think about a white splash in sideboard? I feel like white offers the most, and also the best option against bogles, but maybe black and red have some good options too? I remember there have been some debates on going Gx for better sideboard options but I don't remember if there was a card by card evaluation.
And what matchups do you guys struggle the most against?
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Burn and Bridgevine are the two decks you would encounter here so... 2 Relic, Ooze, Ratchet Bomb, and Echoing truth go in against Bridgevine. // 2 Spellskite, Witchbane, and Pulse go in for Burn.
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Echoing Truth
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Spellskite
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Trygon Predator
2 Deglamer
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There are still a few Scaled affinity players... spellskite and trygon help keep their ravager under control.. as long as skite and trygon don't die to walking ballista activations.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Could you post your main aswell?
4 Experiment One
4 Dryad Militant
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Avatar of the Resolute
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Steel Leaf Champion
Spells
4 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Dismember
4 Rancor
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Treetop Village
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Damping Sphere
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Natural State
2 Deglamer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dismember
1 Torpor Orb
1 Prey Upon
1 Feed the Clan
I have a 2nd list with this sideboard:
2 Damping Sphere
2 Stony Silence
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Natural State
2 Deglamer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dismember
1 Torpor Orb
1 Prey Upon
1 Feed the Clan
The first match I joined the queue with the white sideboard splash I was paired with Bogles, which was funny. I lost game 1, then game 2 on turn 3 I played an untapped Temple Garden, passed the turn with 3 mana open and the opponent didn't attack on turn 3, I killed them on turn 4 I didn't know Blessed Alliance scared them this much. Unfortunately though I had to leave game 3 for a real life issue. For the Stony Silence part, it deals with hardened scales affinity, affinity, and KCI (however they still can improvise and get their Ensnaring Bridge), but I think combinations of 2x Natural State, 2x Deglamer, 2x Pithing Needle, and 2+1x Dismember can deal with them anyhow. By the way is Damping Sphere any good against KCI?
As a last point, I am planning to add 1x Horizon Canopy which I found in a box after finishing a friendly league 4-1 with the mono green list. My only loss was against Ad Nauseam.
I splash U for Stubborn Denial. Please do note my list is very much tailored to my local FNM.
Thrashing Brontodon - I use this smaller guy instead of Baloth or Champion. It's because the Burn deck I often play against brings in Ensnaring Bridge game 2, and also the Bant good stuffs deck that often shows up there brings in Worship game 2. Two Brontodon and 3 Stubborn denial, gives me 5 main deck outs against those cards.
Greenwheel Liberator - yeah, he can just be bolted.. but it does not happen all the time. And when he sticks, he turns on ferocious for denial
Currently have no Dismember in main or side, because Dismember is pretty bad against Bridgevine and Burn, and those two are the decks you would often encounter around here. Also have no manlands because I want Dungrove Elder to be at full power.
4 Narnam Renegade
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Greenwheel Liberator
2 Resilient Khenra
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thrashing Brontodon
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Rancor
1 Curious Obsession
3 Blossoming Defense
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Chart a Course
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Floodad Strand
3 Breeding Pool
10 Forest
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Echoing Truth
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Spellskite
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Trygon Predator
2 Deglamer
Cards I tried which proved bad in actual games..
Hooting Mandrills - this guy is too slow, even with 9 fetch lands in the deck
Delver of Secrets - not enough instant and sorcery to consistently flip him
Hidden Herbalists - I tried several times before giving up. It requires magical chrismas land hands for him to be good here.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Wow sorry for that, I somehow read that "U" as "W", better not write posts here as first thing in the morning
This deck looks super solid. I know you said you're not changing anything in the maindeck, but I have to ask: have you tested Greenwheel Liberator in this shell?
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
14 Forest
4 Temple Garden
2 Treetop Village
Creatures (28)
2 Dryad Militant
1 Rhonas, The indominatable
3 Steel-Leaf Chamption
4 Pelt Collector
2 Narnam Renegate
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Experiment One
4 Stranglehold Geist
4 Thorn Lieutenant
4 Blossoming Defense
3 Rancor
1 Selesnya Charm
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Nature's Way
2 Dryad Militant
2 Heroic Intervention
3 Knight of Autumn
1 Life Goes On
2 Vines of Vastwood
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Tormod's Crypt
-Stay Frosty
Creeping Corrosion in maindeck? Just outright dead cards if your opponent isn't playing artifacts?
vague answers...anyways appreciate it man.
-Stay Frosty
And the budget comment wasn't vague either. It's quite straightforward. Your deck with Pelt Collectors, Thorn Lieutenants, and Temple Gardens has a higher pricepoint than the primer baseline, which makes it unusual to describe your permutation as 'budget' when it's pricier than its inspiration.