I actually do have 2 Horizon Canopies in there MagicYio, just forgot to include them in the list.
I'm actually looking to start a bit more of a mathematical discussion. Lets start by talking about our most explosive hand possible. The fastest line I can think of is:
T1 Ex1 > T2 Ex1 + Dryad, swing 2 > T3 Narnam(2/3) + Avatar(6/5), swing 10 > T4 SLC + Aspect Swing 20+9 = 41 damage over 4 turns (Ex1 are both a 5/5)
A Geist in place of either the Avatar or the SLC nets a T4 kill as well.
I haven't been able to formulate a T3 kill and frankly I don't think it's possible unless the opponent aggressively fetches and shocks, in which case they're removing our creatures, and we're not getting the T3 kill anyways. Even a hand with 1 E1, 4 Geists and an Aspect is a T4 kill.
I haven't been able to formulate a T3 kill and frankly I don't think it's possible unless the opponent aggressively fetches and shocks, in which case they're removing our creatures, and we're not getting the T3 kill anyways. Even a hand with 1 E1, 4 Geists and an Aspect is a T4 kill.
A turn three kill is in fact possible, but it is highly unlikely and takes you down a very unintuitive path. It looks something like this:
T1: Forest, Dryad Militant
T2: Forest, Rancor, Rancor, attack for 6 (opponent at 14)
T3: Forest, Rancor, Aspect, Aspect, attack for 16 (opponent at -2)
As you can see, this line of play requires 9 cards. That's your opening 7 on the play plus two draws. So this is a pretty exact sequence with little room for variation. The whole thing is also wide open to removal, resulting in a massive blow-out that loses you the game on the spot. So even if I saw this line shaping up in my opening hand, I'd probably mulligan.
Interesting...Never thought that Rancor would be the answer to a T3 kill, but I'll have to start thinking of that card more seriously.
I've also added a scooze to the side and moved the 2 from the main (3 total) in favor of running 2x Tuskers. I don't see lightning bolt nearly as much as I used to, and with the new Steel Leafs dominating my 3 drop slot, I prefer to ensure I can cast a 3/3 on curve, get a second evolve trigger, and have 1 more for Aspect, rather than hold up Scooze for the two extra mana it takes to keep it out of bolt range. I'm sure I'll miss the bit of life gain it afforded me though, especially after all the fetches/canopies I've added.
I would advise against removing Scooze out of your mainboard. It's not just about putting in as much damage as possible, it's also making sure you're able to do so by disrupting our opponent. The combination of Dryad Militant and Scavenging Ooze are incredibly strong against a great number of decks, and both the lifegain and the ability to grow are an extra punch against decks like Burn and boardstalls.
Even though the Tuskers give 1 extra power and 1 extra devotion, Scooze is an all-star and can grow far beyond Tusker's 3 power.
Seconding that. Sc.Ooze does many things. At worst, it's a bear. Usually, it's more. Sometimes it gains life at critical moments against Burn or other aggro. Sometimes it blanks opposing strategies by eliminating Bloodghasts or Snapcaster targets. Sometimes it just comes down in the mid-game as a 5/5 or bigger, being a potentially game-winning threat on its own. It's flexible enough to have in the main.
Without our scavening ooze, large goyfs can become a real problem. In one grindy game, I was able to shrink down a 5/6 goyf to a 1/2.. only thing left in yards are lands.
Which is why I have 3 in the side but the majority of games I've played in my current meta, playing Scooze as a 3-4 drop wasn't what I needed, another large body and pushing my E1 into the regen zone was more relevant. My opponent now has 2 3/3 to deal with, one with regen, whereas scooze takes at least 2 turns to get going. Turns I'd rather be casting Steel Leaf, and turns where E1 is still just a 2/2 candidate for removal.
Don't get me wrong, I love scooze, and that's why I have 3 in the side, in matchups where I really need it, there's no replacement. But most of the time, having bigger creatures NOW, and straining my opponents removal has been a better G1 plan. And most of the time, Scooze get's blown up before he's relevant, so he is usually one of the last creatures I end up casting
I may be wrong, but I'm gonna try this and see if my results aren't better first.
You know your meta more than I do. So if you think no ooze main is worth it, then go for that idea. I do the same in the FNM that I always go to, have no dismembers in the main there, all 3 are in the side - would put 2 dismember back in the main if I would have the chance to go to a larger tournament.
I am still toying with the mana dorks and the GR build. I decided to shift and try out some blood moon tactics as a slow down strategy. Throwing big beefy bodies at people while slowing them down on their landbase might be effective. With the mana dorks it puts a little bit of a downturn to the T2 plays. I am still trying to figure out if its going to be worthwhile to push mana dorks up in count any higher than what I have them now but I also don't want to overdo it.
I think your 3cc spot is a little to cloggy for what your trying. I mean I know you have dorks and that can add depth to what your trying, but a total 14 3cc creatures/spells make me feel like you would be gasping for mana.
Slightly updated build after going 1-4 tonight. Opted to keep Scoozes maindeck after realizing how painful Canopy and fetchlands can be, and how big scoozes can get if I hold onto them for after the opponents removal is used up. Also went up a land to 21, I don't think 20 is a good number, especially with Steel Leaf being such an important card now. I would really like to go to 22 to ensure the Steel Leafs are coming out on time, and that I have mana open for Vines, but I just don't know what I'd remove at this point. I use This article for determining all my land numbers.
Something I have a really hard time with is the Rancor/Aspect/Vines ratio. In my mind, Rancor is the best of the 3, but leaves us open to getting 2-for-1'd if they kill the target before it resolves. Aspect is incredibly powerful, especially in my build, but is mostly a finisher, and leaves us open to getting 2-1'd as well. Vines I'm torn on. I rarely have mana open to kick it, and casting it in response to removal forces them to waste a removal spell, but we're casting 2 cards for their one in that interaction, and still only have a creature.
How do you guys rank these spells? Going down a Rancor was painful, but when I was making the decision to cut, guess I felt like Vines at least ensures I'm not getting 2-1'd, whereas Rancor and Aspect do not.
Ideally, I'd like 4 of Aspect, Rancor, and Vines, but I'm not willing to cut creatures for them, and I need a reliable manabase.
Part of me wants to go all out on the creature base, 3 Scoozes, 2 Rhonas, and another land. Thoughts?
Steel leaf and Rhonas have been absolute all stars for me lately. I didn't do amazing tonight, but all the games I lost were 1-2, even against Jund, Naya Burn, and Humans. The Narnams made E1 and Avatar very noticably better so those and the fetches are for sure staying. Narnam is a great reason for your opponents to think twice about swinging, something Kessig Prowler just does not do. Even if they decide to use their limited removal on the Narnam, I'm happy. Even without fetches, I'd still run Narnam over Kessig for the decisions it can force on my opponent T1/2, something even Dryad doesn't do.
I was actually able to break a board stall with Humans in one of my games, with a Rancor on Rhonas.
Hey guys! I don't own this deck anymore, but am planning on potentially building it for a friend of mine. The list that I had played with had done well for me at the time, but it's easily too old at this point (at least a year and a half). I wanted to know how you guys would suggest making the deck as competitive as possible, since I know the people in this thread spent more time on the deck then I.
I would suggest that if you had to cut and add a pump it would be blossoming defense. Don't worry about being 2 for 1'ed in this deck. Yes its going to happen but if you play too conservatively you just lose since your not doing anything to spend the removal on until they can ultimately stymie you anyway and then swing for their kill.
I was actually able to break a board stall with Humans in one of my games, with a Rancor on Rhonas.
Hmm, that's some good practice the deck. Looks like your meta has some removal. If there's plenty of Jund, you might like to have one Chameleon Colossus in the sideboard. So far, on my tests.. 21 land is able to support seven 3 drops. Well, I do have 12 one drop creatures in the deck.. the one drops help to put early pressure and also bait some removal, so there would be less removal for our big guys.
Still have not tested Steel Leafs because they are still expensive over here.. so all I have are the poor old baloths.
I believe Rancor is the most important one, especially with the deathtouch creatures (any blocker has 1 toughness against a trampling deathtoucher), which you play 5 of, then comes Vines of Vastwood as it is so versatile. I would start cutting Aspect of Hydras and always keep Rancor and Vines of Vastwood as 4 ofs.
I think your 3cc spot is a little to cloggy for what your trying. I mean I know you have dorks and that can add depth to what your trying, but a total 14 3cc creatures/spells make me feel like you would be gasping for mana.
I actually do have 2 Horizon Canopies in there MagicYio, just forgot to include them in the list.
I'm actually looking to start a bit more of a mathematical discussion. Lets start by talking about our most explosive hand possible. The fastest line I can think of is:
T1 Ex1 > T2 Ex1 + Dryad, swing 2 > T3 Narnam(2/3) + Avatar(6/5), swing 10 > T4 SLC + Aspect Swing 20+9 = 41 damage over 4 turns (Ex1 are both a 5/5)
A Geist in place of either the Avatar or the SLC nets a T4 kill as well.
I haven't been able to formulate a T3 kill and frankly I don't think it's possible unless the opponent aggressively fetches and shocks, in which case they're removing our creatures, and we're not getting the T3 kill anyways. Even a hand with 1 E1, 4 Geists and an Aspect is a T4 kill.
I know this is not the current list but;
T1 - E1
T2 - Strangleroot geist, mutagenic on one of them = -6
T3 - Groundbreaker, Mutagenic on two creatures = -15
Total cards spent: 3 forests, 3 mutagenics, 3 creature cards = 9
opponent was mana screwed after T1 serum from shock
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On vines, at the moment I feel like blossom defence is better. This is because vines main advantage was it was also disruption (you could play on a kikijiki, resortration angel, splinter twin target to fizzle the spell, later on it was at infect creaters to stop the pumps and hexproof, but now it's not really that critical. The guaranteed pump and hexproof for one mana is more preferably to hexproof and maybe a pump.
Also starting to think like that. Blossoming Defense gives pump and protection for G, while vines only gives protection if G is paid. Twin is gone, and infect is in low numbers.. so the trick with vines being used on opponent's creatures isn't as useful anymore. Would have to further test this, might end up replacing two vines with two blossoming defense.
I'm actually looking to start a bit more of a mathematical discussion. Lets start by talking about our most explosive hand possible. The fastest line I can think of is:
T1 Ex1 > T2 Ex1 + Dryad, swing 2 > T3 Narnam(2/3) + Avatar(6/5), swing 10 > T4 SLC + Aspect Swing 20+9 = 41 damage over 4 turns (Ex1 are both a 5/5)
A Geist in place of either the Avatar or the SLC nets a T4 kill as well.
I haven't been able to formulate a T3 kill and frankly I don't think it's possible unless the opponent aggressively fetches and shocks, in which case they're removing our creatures, and we're not getting the T3 kill anyways. Even a hand with 1 E1, 4 Geists and an Aspect is a T4 kill.
A turn three kill is in fact possible, but it is highly unlikely and takes you down a very unintuitive path. It looks something like this:
T1: Forest, Dryad Militant
T2: Forest, Rancor, Rancor, attack for 6 (opponent at 14)
T3: Forest, Rancor, Aspect, Aspect, attack for 16 (opponent at -2)
As you can see, this line of play requires 9 cards. That's your opening 7 on the play plus two draws. So this is a pretty exact sequence with little room for variation. The whole thing is also wide open to removal, resulting in a massive blow-out that loses you the game on the spot. So even if I saw this line shaping up in my opening hand, I'd probably mulligan.
I've also added a scooze to the side and moved the 2 from the main (3 total) in favor of running 2x Tuskers. I don't see lightning bolt nearly as much as I used to, and with the new Steel Leafs dominating my 3 drop slot, I prefer to ensure I can cast a 3/3 on curve, get a second evolve trigger, and have 1 more for Aspect, rather than hold up Scooze for the two extra mana it takes to keep it out of bolt range. I'm sure I'll miss the bit of life gain it afforded me though, especially after all the fetches/canopies I've added.
Even though the Tuskers give 1 extra power and 1 extra devotion, Scooze is an all-star and can grow far beyond Tusker's 3 power.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
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Don't get me wrong, I love scooze, and that's why I have 3 in the side, in matchups where I really need it, there's no replacement. But most of the time, having bigger creatures NOW, and straining my opponents removal has been a better G1 plan. And most of the time, Scooze get's blown up before he's relevant, so he is usually one of the last creatures I end up casting
I may be wrong, but I'm gonna try this and see if my results aren't better first.
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4 Birds of Paradise
4 Experiment One
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Leatherback Baloth
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Steel Leaf Champion
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Blood Moon
3 Collected Company
LAND (23)
14 Forest
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
My sideboard is still something I am working on. Right now I am focusing a little more still on the mainboard though.
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[Modern] Allies
4 Experiment One
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dryad Militant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Steel Leaf Champion
3 Rancor
Land
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Treetop Village
10 Forest
Instant
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Dismember
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Nature
2 Natural State
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Heroic Intervention
1 Creeping Corrosion
Something I have a really hard time with is the Rancor/Aspect/Vines ratio. In my mind, Rancor is the best of the 3, but leaves us open to getting 2-for-1'd if they kill the target before it resolves. Aspect is incredibly powerful, especially in my build, but is mostly a finisher, and leaves us open to getting 2-1'd as well. Vines I'm torn on. I rarely have mana open to kick it, and casting it in response to removal forces them to waste a removal spell, but we're casting 2 cards for their one in that interaction, and still only have a creature.
How do you guys rank these spells? Going down a Rancor was painful, but when I was making the decision to cut, guess I felt like Vines at least ensures I'm not getting 2-1'd, whereas Rancor and Aspect do not.
Ideally, I'd like 4 of Aspect, Rancor, and Vines, but I'm not willing to cut creatures for them, and I need a reliable manabase.
Part of me wants to go all out on the creature base, 3 Scoozes, 2 Rhonas, and another land. Thoughts?
Steel leaf and Rhonas have been absolute all stars for me lately. I didn't do amazing tonight, but all the games I lost were 1-2, even against Jund, Naya Burn, and Humans. The Narnams made E1 and Avatar very noticably better so those and the fetches are for sure staying. Narnam is a great reason for your opponents to think twice about swinging, something Kessig Prowler just does not do. Even if they decide to use their limited removal on the Narnam, I'm happy. Even without fetches, I'd still run Narnam over Kessig for the decisions it can force on my opponent T1/2, something even Dryad doesn't do.
I was actually able to break a board stall with Humans in one of my games, with a Rancor on Rhonas.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-09-16-sEm-stompy/
I saw Steelleaf and know that it slots very well in the deck, but I'm not sure about other changes. Thank you in advance!
Hmm, that's some good practice the deck. Looks like your meta has some removal. If there's plenty of Jund, you might like to have one Chameleon Colossus in the sideboard. So far, on my tests.. 21 land is able to support seven 3 drops. Well, I do have 12 one drop creatures in the deck.. the one drops help to put early pressure and also bait some removal, so there would be less removal for our big guys.
Still have not tested Steel Leafs because they are still expensive over here.. so all I have are the poor old baloths.
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I will adjust a few things and see if I can get some testing in.
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[Modern] Allies
I know this is not the current list but;
T1 - E1
T2 - Strangleroot geist, mutagenic on one of them = -6
T3 - Groundbreaker, Mutagenic on two creatures = -15
Total cards spent: 3 forests, 3 mutagenics, 3 creature cards = 9
I've actually pulled this off once.
I have also done this once:
T1 - Dryad
T2 - Rancor + rancor = -6
T3 - Rancor + aspect = -12
opponent was mana screwed after T1 serum from shock
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics,
and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
Also starting to think like that. Blossoming Defense gives pump and protection for G, while vines only gives protection if G is paid. Twin is gone, and infect is in low numbers.. so the trick with vines being used on opponent's creatures isn't as useful anymore. Would have to further test this, might end up replacing two vines with two blossoming defense.
edit: replaced 2 vines
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