Marrow Shards could turn the tide when used in place of Gut Shot. We lose the ability to ping the other player for the win, but it could be a cheap sweeper if blockers are assigned correctly.
Corrosive Gale or even Windstorm are incredibly powerful anti-flyer cards, and though not as multi-functional as the Bow of Nylea, have more potential to turn the tide against flyer decks, and with a better mana-to-damage ratio.
I was pretty surprised to see no real protection from sweepers. Wrap in Vigor seems to be the best option.
Against Blue, Choke, Eyes of the Wisent, and Guttural Response could be huge.
Decks that have flyers as a win condition aren't that prevalent, and Avatar of the Resolute already does a lot of work against Affinity. The trample our creatures have gives us quite some game against BW Tokens as well.
In the sideboard section in the primer I've put some anti-sweeper cards, and Wrap in Vigor is a worse version of Heroic Intervention.
All three anti-blue cards are already discussed in the sideboard section as well.
Sundering Growth only copies tokens. Natural State costs 1 less mana and for big artifacts/enchantments (or vial on 1) Deglamer/Unravel the Aether have the benefit of also tucking cards that give us problems either in the graveyard or on their way to the graveyard (e.g., Wurmcoil Engine).
I prefer tuck effects like Deglamer.. because Lantern decks sometimes use Welding Jar to regenerate their Ensnaring Bridge.. and there are also those who recur bridge with Academy ruins - it's really annoying once they get that kind of thing going, deglamer helps get out of that situation.
GC and KT die to the same removal, but GC has built in evasion. In matchups where Baloth+Rancor is just not fast enough, having another creature with built in trample and good devotion might actually be better than having 3-4 scoozes, since having multiples of those on the field isn't really beneficial. Buffing GC with Aspect or Vines makes it a survivor, and can easily put out better early damage than a Dungrove Elder or even Rhonas, especially if you have two out (devotion).
We're not talking about replacing the Avatars, so saying GC is strictly worse doesn't really apply here. They're the Kessig Prowler of the two drop slot, and frankly I think they're far more functional than the Kalonian Tusker, which is what they should really be compared to.
Personally, I'd sideboard 2x for matchups where I'm concerned the opponent has faster creatures than me, if I'm not concerned about removal, or if the opponent is using land destruction.
Garruk's Companion is in the suboptimal choices list for a number of reasons.
It has evasion, yes, but it does not die to the same removal as Kalonian Tusker does. Electrolyze, Grim Lavamancer, Kolaghan's Command, Collective Brutality all hit the Companion but not the Tusker, and these cards are all very relevant. It also dies a lot more often in combat if you don't have a pump spell, and we don't have one every turn.
You say it should be compared to Tusker, since they fight for the same spots in the deck. While that may be true, you can't dismiss Scavenging Ooze so simply. Having multiples on the field might not be good, if the Scooze matters to the opponent it will be hit by a kill spell, which is why you should always keep the other one in your hand until the first one dies, and having a second one in your hand can be a lot better than you think. If the first one stays alive, chances are big that you are on the winning hand.
Even without comparing it to Tusker, it still is a worse version of Avatar of the Resolute.
Another smaller reason why it's on that list is because simply no one plays it.
Also, I strongly recommend not using Companion in the sideboard. There are specific hate cards that are a lot stronger than that and that will perform a lot better in specific situations.
But we need an ideal hand/draws to make this happen, if we don't get them, we're reliant on pump spells/Rancor. At which point, staying true to the aggro mindset of the deck, wouldn't it be more consistent to run Groundbreaker? T3 6/trample/haste, and if we wait until turn 4 we can pump him if needed.
I get that deathtouch+trample is incredibly powerful, but it feels like Rhonas is a bit too inconsistent, relies on too many conditions, and pushes this deck towards more of a midgame mindset. He also significantly reduces our 3drop devotion for Aspect, and can't attack until T4 at the earliest. This opens us up to Anger of the Gods and even more boardwipes every turn after that, and unless E1 is a 4/4 or Avatar is a 5/4+, we're kinda ****ed.
Groundbreaker seems glasscannon-y but I think if we really look at it, he's more consistent and better at what we're trying to do. The strength of this deck is and always has been fast, efficient, consistent damage to the face with evasion (and built-in hate/control).
If groundbreaker is too situational, Boggart Ram-Gang seems like a logical choice as well. Haste is extremely potent for us and core to getting as much damage in before the opponent. Wither also punishes blocking.
I know Groundbreaker and Ram-Gang are in the primer but I think they deserve a second look.
But hey, I've been wrong before and if I'm wrong I get to learn more lol so throw it at me.
This discussion and many more have been had in the old Stompy thread (linked in the first reply in this thread). Which isn’t to say these things aren’t worth discussing again, particularly as the meta shifts and new cards get added to our cardpool. Just suggesting if you’re in for a few hundred pages of light reading you can reread all the past arguments of Groundbreaker versus Leatherback, Companion versus Tusker, Treetop Village versus lands that always enter the battlefield untapped, various 1-drop options versus one another...
Just played FNM with the standard list + Groundbreaker/Dungrove/Thrun. Ground breaker felt great when it connected with Aspect but I was getting absolutely destroyed with removal spells, especially against burn. I'm thinking about mainboarding Blossoming Defense in place Of Aspect of Hydra, dropping Groundbreaker/Baloth for 2x Rhonas and another Elder, dropping 1 Treetop village in place of another forest (for elder), and then I guess I'll keep one Baloth.
All I had for lifegain was Feed the Clan but I'll definitely be sideboarding at least 2x Life Goes On for Burn matchups because good lord was that brutal.
I did land a Vines on a doubly pumped InkMoth Nexus which the player very much did not expect, but I still want at least 2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast in sideboard for that matchup because I lost to infect twice. Probably another Dismember as well.
Another cool interaction I liked against Burn/infect was dropping Geist and then using Prey Upon to trade and force the undying trigger.
I hate to lose those incredibly satisfying Aspect plays but there were several times where I had a hand full of pump cards and a graveyard full of creatures who never had a chance to fight. I think I'd rather focus on increasing my resiliency/consistency rather than waiting around for Aspect to be relevant. Plus with less 3 drop devotion synergy, Aspect gets a lot less potent.
Excited to get Rhonas as well, I can see why he's valued so highly now.
Thanks for the extra info! It's good to see that Tireless Tracker is doing well.
Also, since most of the moving is done now, I now have some time to edit the primer again!
I want to add info on Tireless Tracker and Ghalta, Primal Hunger (what do I write about Ghalta?), maybe put Marrow Shards with the suboptimal choices? Any other cards I have forgotten that need to be added?
I also think that at this point, the white splash is the most important one, and the other splashes haven't 'settled' enough to write a section about. (I'm thinking mostly about any other single-colour splash, amicdeep's Abzan, and Temur evolve, which feels a bit too little like our stompy deck.)
I'm going to say that the splash section is good enough for now, and start working on the matchup section, since that is the last and most important part of the primer that hasn't been done yet.
Also, mistahARK, can you show us the list you're using?
All I had for lifegain was Feed the Clan but I'll definitely be sideboarding at least 2x Life Goes On for Burn matchups because good lord was that brutal.
I suggest you try Pulse of Murasa as well for the lifegain. Getting back a creature helps, and could win the game in certain situations... for example.. get back the leatherback baloth that the Burn player worked hard to kill. I stopped using feed the clans after testing pulse. Even if they skullcrack it, you still get a guy back from the yard.
Boggart Ram-Gang honestly if this cost 1 mana less i would still be hard to convince me to play it, only being a 3/3 is a huge (HUGE!) downside, Flinthoof Boar doesn't make the cut in zoo any more and we play a very similar game. (if you look at other colors and the stuff they don't bother with with +3 and haste cmc 3 you get an idea how poor this card is i'm not even convided i would run it in standard)
I have to strongly disagree on this as I think you're undervaluing haste. If it cost one mana less, the Boggart Ram-Gang would be hands down one of the best two drops available to this deck (I'd probably stop playing 3-drops altogether). It takes the Leatherback Baloth 3 swings before it breaks even with the Boggart in terms of raw damage output. I can't count how many times the board has been cleared and I'm staring at my hand wishing I had same-turn damage to close out the last few points of damage and win the game. Casting a creature and waiting a turn just enables my opponent time to blow it up before I can swing in for the kill the next turn. For that reason, I'm now running 3 Boggarts and only 2 Leatherbacks main board. Yes, Groundbreaker would be better in those situations, but is less consistent in most other situations where I need a creature that sticks around for another swing.
A 3/3 with haste at 3 CMC is decent even for a Red, but we can play the Boggart in mono-Green, which is huge. You can't really compare it to the Flinthoof Boar because now you're comparing a deck with access to red which has a lot more haste options AND direct damage, so the competition in that area is a lot higher. Sure, it dies to Bolt, but I see so much Path and Push these days, the 3 toughness seems less important than the same turn damage. I particularly can't believe you're supporting Tireless Tracker over the Boggart since it's way slower and gives 2 less devotion...but I play a mono-Green budget build without fetches, so maybe that makes the difference.
Thanks for the extra info! It's good to see that Tireless Tracker is doing well.
Also, since most of the moving is done now, I now have some time to edit the primer again!
I want to add info on Tireless Tracker and Ghalta, Primal Hunger (what do I write about Ghalta?), maybe put Marrow Shards with the suboptimal choices? Any other cards I have forgotten that need to be added?
I also think that at this point, the white splash is the most important one, and the other splashes haven't 'settled' enough to write a section about. (I'm thinking mostly about any other single-colour splash, amicdeep's Abzan, and Temur evolve, which feels a bit too little like our stompy deck.)
I'm going to say that the splash section is good enough for now, and start working on the matchup section, since that is the last and most important part of the primer that hasn't been done yet.
Also, mistahARK, can you show us the list you're using?
I suggest you try Pulse of Murasa as well for the lifegain. Getting back a creature helps, and could win the game in certain situations... for example.. get back the leatherback baloth that the Burn player worked hard to kill. I stopped using feed the clans after testing pulse. Even if they skullcrack it, you still get a guy back from the yard.
Definitely going to try one of those as well, though the cost is a bit steep. Maybe one per?
I suggest you try Pulse of Murasa as well for the lifegain. Getting back a creature helps, and could win the game in certain situations... for example.. get back the leatherback baloth that the Burn player worked hard to kill. I stopped using feed the clans after testing pulse. Even if they skullcrack it, you still get a guy back from the yard.
Definitely going to try one of those as well, though the cost is a bit steep. Maybe one per?
If you are using the 21-22 land build of Stompy.. then 3 mana should be ok. Well, you can test it as a one-of to start. Another use I have found for it is that it can help bring back a creature, so that Rhonas can attack / block.
Redsplash offers a lot of good efficient creatures if you’re abandoning the devotion benefits of mono green. Voltaic Brawler is a tremendous value play, and the likes of Kird Ape, Flinthoof Boar, and Wild Nacatl all punch above their casting cost.
Probably, but what are you gonna do, deliberately avoid the efficient creatures in your splash color because they’re used by another deck? If you were playing the fundamentals of Stompy (low cost efficiency), if you for some reason decided to splash red, those are the creatures that would fit. I was responding to binmaa’s post iterating the splashes.
Don’t think zoo typically plays Voltaic Brawler anyway.
I would definitely use it over Feed the Clan but I try to stick as close to the 1-cost spells as possible. I'll probably test it as a 1-of alongside Life Goes On for a while and see if the benefit outweighs the mana cost.
Although a part of my focus for this deck is not only resilience but broadly applicable main-board abilities so I'll probably be considering it more seriously. I do have a rule for myself that only one instant/sorcery can cost more than 1, whether that means sideboarding in or running in mainboard. So if I run that, I'd run cheaper artifact/enchantment destruction.
Going off on a bit of a tangent here, there's another part of me that is having a really hard time giving up Beast within for general permanent destruction utility. It's our most widely applicable removal spell and I don't see a point in running 1-2 of a bunch of other more specific removal spells when I could just run that and use the rest of my sideboard for a better chance at additional broad answers.
Something I've noticed about a lot of the sideboards in these threads is that they run 1-2 of a very specific and efficient answer. While it would be nice to draw that, there's just a really low chance of drawing what you need, when you need it at those numbers. I feel that it's better to run multiples of a broad answer (Beast Within, Creeping Corrosion, Back to Nature, Heroic Intervention, Pithing Needle) than it is to hope that you'll draw the 1-2 answers for a super specific situation that happens to be in your sideboard. When the more efficient spells hit at the right time its great, but what if Natural State wasn't enough? It's a dead card in hand.
A couple others I noticed though:
Marrow Shards could turn the tide when used in place of Gut Shot. We lose the ability to ping the other player for the win, but it could be a cheap sweeper if blockers are assigned correctly.
Corrosive Gale or even Windstorm are incredibly powerful anti-flyer cards, and though not as multi-functional as the Bow of Nylea, have more potential to turn the tide against flyer decks, and with a better mana-to-damage ratio.
I was pretty surprised to see no real protection from sweepers. Wrap in Vigor seems to be the best option.
Against Blue, Choke, Eyes of the Wisent, and Guttural Response could be huge.
Decks that have flyers as a win condition aren't that prevalent, and Avatar of the Resolute already does a lot of work against Affinity. The trample our creatures have gives us quite some game against BW Tokens as well.
In the sideboard section in the primer I've put some anti-sweeper cards, and Wrap in Vigor is a worse version of Heroic Intervention.
All three anti-blue cards are already discussed in the sideboard section as well.
I prefer tuck effects like Deglamer.. because Lantern decks sometimes use Welding Jar to regenerate their Ensnaring Bridge.. and there are also those who recur bridge with Academy ruins - it's really annoying once they get that kind of thing going, deglamer helps get out of that situation.
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GC and KT die to the same removal, but GC has built in evasion. In matchups where Baloth+Rancor is just not fast enough, having another creature with built in trample and good devotion might actually be better than having 3-4 scoozes, since having multiples of those on the field isn't really beneficial. Buffing GC with Aspect or Vines makes it a survivor, and can easily put out better early damage than a Dungrove Elder or even Rhonas, especially if you have two out (devotion).
We're not talking about replacing the Avatars, so saying GC is strictly worse doesn't really apply here. They're the Kessig Prowler of the two drop slot, and frankly I think they're far more functional than the Kalonian Tusker, which is what they should really be compared to.
Personally, I'd sideboard 2x for matchups where I'm concerned the opponent has faster creatures than me, if I'm not concerned about removal, or if the opponent is using land destruction.
It has evasion, yes, but it does not die to the same removal as Kalonian Tusker does. Electrolyze, Grim Lavamancer, Kolaghan's Command, Collective Brutality all hit the Companion but not the Tusker, and these cards are all very relevant. It also dies a lot more often in combat if you don't have a pump spell, and we don't have one every turn.
You say it should be compared to Tusker, since they fight for the same spots in the deck. While that may be true, you can't dismiss Scavenging Ooze so simply. Having multiples on the field might not be good, if the Scooze matters to the opponent it will be hit by a kill spell, which is why you should always keep the other one in your hand until the first one dies, and having a second one in your hand can be a lot better than you think. If the first one stays alive, chances are big that you are on the winning hand.
Even without comparing it to Tusker, it still is a worse version of Avatar of the Resolute.
Another smaller reason why it's on that list is because simply no one plays it.
Also, I strongly recommend not using Companion in the sideboard. There are specific hate cards that are a lot stronger than that and that will perform a lot better in specific situations.
E1 > geist/druid/kessig > Avatar > Rhonas (two 4 power creatures)
But we need an ideal hand/draws to make this happen, if we don't get them, we're reliant on pump spells/Rancor. At which point, staying true to the aggro mindset of the deck, wouldn't it be more consistent to run Groundbreaker? T3 6/trample/haste, and if we wait until turn 4 we can pump him if needed.
I get that deathtouch+trample is incredibly powerful, but it feels like Rhonas is a bit too inconsistent, relies on too many conditions, and pushes this deck towards more of a midgame mindset. He also significantly reduces our 3drop devotion for Aspect, and can't attack until T4 at the earliest. This opens us up to Anger of the Gods and even more boardwipes every turn after that, and unless E1 is a 4/4 or Avatar is a 5/4+, we're kinda ****ed.
Groundbreaker also works exceptionally well with Mutagenic Growth and that would make Narnam Renegade even more powerful.
Groundbreaker seems glasscannon-y but I think if we really look at it, he's more consistent and better at what we're trying to do. The strength of this deck is and always has been fast, efficient, consistent damage to the face with evasion (and built-in hate/control).
If groundbreaker is too situational, Boggart Ram-Gang seems like a logical choice as well. Haste is extremely potent for us and core to getting as much damage in before the opponent. Wither also punishes blocking.
I know Groundbreaker and Ram-Gang are in the primer but I think they deserve a second look.
But hey, I've been wrong before and if I'm wrong I get to learn more lol so throw it at me.
It may not be terribly likely but
T1 Forest, Experiment One
T2 Fetch-Forest, Experiment One, Narnam Renegade
T3 Fetch-Forest, Narnam Renegade, Ghalta
Does work.
All I had for lifegain was Feed the Clan but I'll definitely be sideboarding at least 2x Life Goes On for Burn matchups because good lord was that brutal.
I did land a Vines on a doubly pumped InkMoth Nexus which the player very much did not expect, but I still want at least 2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast in sideboard for that matchup because I lost to infect twice. Probably another Dismember as well.
Another cool interaction I liked against Burn/infect was dropping Geist and then using Prey Upon to trade and force the undying trigger.
I hate to lose those incredibly satisfying Aspect plays but there were several times where I had a hand full of pump cards and a graveyard full of creatures who never had a chance to fight. I think I'd rather focus on increasing my resiliency/consistency rather than waiting around for Aspect to be relevant. Plus with less 3 drop devotion synergy, Aspect gets a lot less potent.
Excited to get Rhonas as well, I can see why he's valued so highly now.
Also, since most of the moving is done now, I now have some time to edit the primer again!
I want to add info on Tireless Tracker and Ghalta, Primal Hunger (what do I write about Ghalta?), maybe put Marrow Shards with the suboptimal choices? Any other cards I have forgotten that need to be added?
I also think that at this point, the white splash is the most important one, and the other splashes haven't 'settled' enough to write a section about. (I'm thinking mostly about any other single-colour splash, amicdeep's Abzan, and Temur evolve, which feels a bit too little like our stompy deck.)
I'm going to say that the splash section is good enough for now, and start working on the matchup section, since that is the last and most important part of the primer that hasn't been done yet.
Also, mistahARK, can you show us the list you're using?
I suggest you try Pulse of Murasa as well for the lifegain. Getting back a creature helps, and could win the game in certain situations... for example.. get back the leatherback baloth that the Burn player worked hard to kill. I stopped using feed the clans after testing pulse. Even if they skullcrack it, you still get a guy back from the yard.
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I have to strongly disagree on this as I think you're undervaluing haste. If it cost one mana less, the Boggart Ram-Gang would be hands down one of the best two drops available to this deck (I'd probably stop playing 3-drops altogether). It takes the Leatherback Baloth 3 swings before it breaks even with the Boggart in terms of raw damage output. I can't count how many times the board has been cleared and I'm staring at my hand wishing I had same-turn damage to close out the last few points of damage and win the game. Casting a creature and waiting a turn just enables my opponent time to blow it up before I can swing in for the kill the next turn. For that reason, I'm now running 3 Boggarts and only 2 Leatherbacks main board. Yes, Groundbreaker would be better in those situations, but is less consistent in most other situations where I need a creature that sticks around for another swing.
A 3/3 with haste at 3 CMC is decent even for a Red, but we can play the Boggart in mono-Green, which is huge. You can't really compare it to the Flinthoof Boar because now you're comparing a deck with access to red which has a lot more haste options AND direct damage, so the competition in that area is a lot higher. Sure, it dies to Bolt, but I see so much Path and Push these days, the 3 toughness seems less important than the same turn damage. I particularly can't believe you're supporting Tireless Tracker over the Boggart since it's way slower and gives 2 less devotion...but I play a mono-Green budget build without fetches, so maybe that makes the difference.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
I'm working on it now.
Definitely going to try one of those as well, though the cost is a bit steep. Maybe one per?
If you are using the 21-22 land build of Stompy.. then 3 mana should be ok. Well, you can test it as a one-of to start. Another use I have found for it is that it can help bring back a creature, so that Rhonas can attack / block.
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Don’t think zoo typically plays Voltaic Brawler anyway.
Although a part of my focus for this deck is not only resilience but broadly applicable main-board abilities so I'll probably be considering it more seriously. I do have a rule for myself that only one instant/sorcery can cost more than 1, whether that means sideboarding in or running in mainboard. So if I run that, I'd run cheaper artifact/enchantment destruction.
Going off on a bit of a tangent here, there's another part of me that is having a really hard time giving up Beast within for general permanent destruction utility. It's our most widely applicable removal spell and I don't see a point in running 1-2 of a bunch of other more specific removal spells when I could just run that and use the rest of my sideboard for a better chance at additional broad answers.
Something I've noticed about a lot of the sideboards in these threads is that they run 1-2 of a very specific and efficient answer. While it would be nice to draw that, there's just a really low chance of drawing what you need, when you need it at those numbers. I feel that it's better to run multiples of a broad answer (Beast Within, Creeping Corrosion, Back to Nature, Heroic Intervention, Pithing Needle) than it is to hope that you'll draw the 1-2 answers for a super specific situation that happens to be in your sideboard. When the more efficient spells hit at the right time its great, but what if Natural State wasn't enough? It's a dead card in hand.