Really like the build. What's your thoughts on dropping scooze? Interesting your not finding defence any good, is it's just down to non interactive matchups or is the increased resistance from troll and hexdrinker making the hexproof redundant?
Good job on MTGO, your list is sweet. I have been feeling the same way about the big 3 CMC creatures too recently, especially after getting hexdrinker, the fact that we will often tap out on turn 3 to play a Steel Leaf Champion just hasn't felt worth it recently, and I can't tell how good Veil of Summer really is. It seems like one of those cards that's really good when you can draw and use it and really bad when you find it without something else to do. Hopefully after the banlist update on the 8th we can have some more room to play with in the sideboard so we don't need so much graveyard hate.
Good job with the results! Tons of questions incoming!
Like AmicDeep said, how is the lack of Scavenging Ooze? You only have one in your side.
One of my biggest questions is regarding the lack of Aspect of Hydra. One of the deck's biggest strengths is the ability to close down matches one turn faster with the use of Aspect, that would otherwise be a lot more difficult to win by giving the opponent an extra turn (like against Burn, Storm, Scapeshift, etc). This is one of THE reasons to play this deck, and has been said for a long time. Not being able to alpha strike through you opponent's board and playing Aspect on the unblocked attacker is something I would really miss while playing. How are you finding playing without it? I personally think Hunger of the Howlpack is not as good by far: even though it is permanent, only being able to give a creature +3/+3, and that only being after a creature has died (so most likely after combat) seems really suboptimal and will make you play a longer game than usual.
Other questions: Why have you not upgraded the manabase? Is it a budgetary issue? Even if you're not playing fetches, I would really suggest playing 2 Nurturing Peatland. Other than that, what about other utility lands like Hashep Oasis or Tranquil Thicket?
Can you tell more about Savage Swipe? we have almost no information on the card, and I'm really curious to how good it is etc. Is it really that good? Wouldn't you rather have a 2/2 split with Dismember?
How is Force of Vigor? Does it feel better/stronger than Natural State? What about the cost? How is the card 'disadvantage'?
Have you not missed having a big creature on board, like Steel Leaf Champion?
Scavenging Ooze - With Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis / Altar Of Dementia being the premier graveyard deck in the format right now...Scavenging Ooze just doesn't do enough. Tarmogoyf decks are few and far between, anymore. I'm confident enough against Izzet Arclight Phoenix builds, so the only time I would really like to have another is against Red Arclight Phoenix and traditional Dredge. I used to keep 4 copies in my 75 but it just plays a different game than the deck wants to right now, imo.
Steel Leaf Champion - The occasional Remand or far-more-common Planeswalker bounce (Teferi/Jace) is the worst feeling. Going wide has proven to be more powerful than it's evasion.
Veil Of Summer - I'm going to keep the it until I run into a relevant match or two and decide from there. The more I think about it, the more meh it seems. May just want an extra threat, instead. (The second Scavenging Ooze, perhaps.)
Aspect Of Hydra - I played 4 in all of my lists up until this build. Not having a GGG devotion creature made it the first suspect for cutting. Vines Of Vastwood usually provided the same role for a lethal attack in advance of the opponent's pivotal turn.
Forest - I'm still hung up on taking zero damage from my mana base. It just always feels like it matters if my opponent has Mountains. Treetop Village always delivers, but everything else hasn't done much for me.
Savage Swipe - This has typically read as a green Searing Blaze. 4 damage to target creature, and 2 to a player. Once in a while you have to trade it and your creature to bring something larger down (Thoughtknot Seer, for example.) I ran 4 Dismember previously. Far less Gurmag Angler now that Grixis has turned Esper.
Force Of Vigor - This card is either a blowout or a bit of a dud. It's a zero mana answer to Chalice Of The Void which the deck is pretty soft to, and a way through Ensnaring Bridge. Welding Jar embarrasses this card, though. Having to hold a Green card in your hand can make for some difficult choices, but in the match-ups that you want this card, you'll typically have a redundant 2CMC creature or something, anyway.
Hexdrinker - Usually insane. Just the threat of him on the table warps how opponent's play if they're trying to interact. The threat of leveling him has earned some concessions. Is also totally fine as a vanilla 2/1 for G. Having a brutal top deck like this alleviates some of the pressure pulling Scavenging Ooze may have put on.
The deck just feels far more consistent like this, and the London mulligan was a game changer as well. I'll post up more after I jam more matches over the weekend.
EDIT: I played 6 more matches, with 4-2 as a result.
Match against Eldrazi Tron where my opponent had it all in games 1 & 3. Two Eldrazi Temple, Chalice Of The Void on X=1 turn 2, and turn 4 All Is Dust, with threats on the 3rd and 5th turn both games. I was never in it. Solid curve through their clunky hand made for an easy game 2. Currently pretty indifferent on this match-up. Collector Ouphe is great against Walking Ballista. They had a lot of MD removal; Dismember, Warping Wail, and Spacial Contortion.
BG Midrange - I used Savage Swipe to kill their Hexdrinker. They weren't able to kill my second Hexdrinker and it 6/6'd the turn they passed to me at 6 life. Game 2 they had a Fatal Push but an otherwise durdly hand. I killed their Tarmogoyf and had 3 creatures of my own, one being a Strangleroot Geist. Only thing they could do was play Liliana Of The Veil and die to attacks.
Thanks for the all the info, I've used some of what you've written to update my lists. (I still haven't tryed out troll yet)
This only thing I disagree with in your comments is the lack of fetches/ narnams I find the narnams insane value and the deck thinning is particularly useful (also 22 lands seems quite high for what is becoming a more resistant zoo deck, iv personaly droped to 20 to help keep the agressivnes of the deck).
But I'll have a play without them as it's been a while since I ran all basics.
I'm liking 22 lands for the sake of fewer mulligans. A third utility land does appeal to me. I may try a Hashep Oasis or a Waterlogged Grove. I used to pack a Pendelhaven, but that was when I was running 6 1/1 base creatures. I guess my last question for the MD is Experiment One vs. Pelt Collector? I've always maxed on Experiment One first. The Regenerate has been relevant a handful of times. It has also grown to 4/4 a handful of times. I think the toughness check matters if it's already wearing Rancor. I know this is a pretty common topic to cover in this thread, just not sure what the opinions are in this build.
Sideboarding with the deck has proven pretty difficult. I'm super satisfied with the main 60, but the extra 15 is ever-changing. What to board out is pretty tough without diluting the deck's plan too much.
Here's my current SB. Attacking all the degenerate decks that can win faster.
I still don't think I can beat a turn 2 Griselbrand if I only have the Pithing Needle. Unless I have double Avatar Of The Resolute early. I have been pretty consistently sticking him as a 6/5, though.
I'm 3-1 against UW control, which feels good. A lot better than the Steel Leaf Champion build faired. The only match I lost, they had Timely Reinforcements on turn 3 and Snapcaster Mage on turn 5 in game 1. Game 3 they miracled a Terminus with no set-up on turns 3 and 4 back-to-back when they were otherwise super dead. Ouch. I have otherwise been able to win through a turn 3 Timely Reinforcements, which also feels pretty liberating. That's probably my least favorite card to play against with the deck.
I can match pace with the creature plan against HogaakBridgeVineAltar, but lose to the Altar Of Dementia without a SB card. Still working that match-up out. I've only faced it twice.
I've played against about everything except Devoted Druid combo now, and I'm not sure how that match-up will fair.
Current record with the list is 17-7, in one League and the rest just 2-player queues. Probably jump into another League with it soon.
Hey guys is prismatic vista worth playing. I have a stock list and am just looking to upgrade a little bit. i want to add 2 prismatic vista for some filtering along with 1-2 waterlogged groves or peatlands.
Are they worth it or is it better to just keep the forests and not take the life loss?
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Modern RUAffinityUR GMono Green StompyG CEldrazi TronC URWJeskai GeistWRU WRBoros BurnRW BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
I don't play fetches, but generally speaking the "filtering" is not significant enough to merit the loss of life. Waterlogged Grove/Horizon Canopy/Nurturing Peatland are used because they enable you to exchange a land for more gas in case of mana flooding.
Hey guys is prismatic vista worth playing. I have a stock list and am just looking to upgrade a little bit. i want to add 2 prismatic vista for some filtering along with 1-2 waterlogged groves or peatlands.
Are they worth it or is it better to just keep the forests and not take the life loss?
They might be useful as cheaper substitutes to fetchlands if you want to enable Narnam Renegade. But that would splashing a second color more problematic.
i bought two waterlogged gorves for the draw power but now i feel reallyyy bad for blowing 50$ on two vistas prior to asking you guys what the deal was. lol
Well Ill prob put one in Stompy and another in my commander deck.
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I still stick with mono-Forests, but Prismatic Vista is just as good as any other fetch if you're not splashing. I don't think that's a regrettable financial decision, even at that price. The ceiling is pretty high for Modern lands.
With Bridge From Below having been banned, the Vengevine / Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis deck plays a bit more fair. Frees up those SB slots that I formerly had dedicated to Grafdigger's Cage. I think the Allosaurus Rider / Neoform deck is both too inconsistent, and too few and far between to keep them for that match-up.
I've got a few different things I'm wanting to try out.
Youre right about the modern land ceiling perhaps ill play two vista and two groves since im not splashing any colors in my deck and youre right about the neoform deck
I havent played against it at all and i dont think the new mulligan is going to be all that crazy for it bc itll help everyone else find the SB hate for it too.
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That deck also requires a lot of cards to actually combo. They can't mulligan down to too few cards. It requires Allosaurus Rider + 2 green spells + Neoform + at least 1 mana source, if one of the green spells was also a Chancellor Of The Tangle.
I know I just posted my SB on this page of the thread, but since there was a banning I have changed it quite a bit.
I substituted the 2 Blossoming Defense for 2 Dismember in the MD. I've played a few more random 2 player queue matches but I'll probably jump in a League finally tomorrow and/or Friday. I've been busy the last couple days and was waiting for the ban info.
Anyone else been jamming Barkhide Troll? Whoops, just realized M20 isn't out in paper until Friday.
That deck also requires a lot of cards to actually combo. They can't mulligan down to too few cards. It requires Allosaurus Rider + 2 green spells + Neoform + at least 1 mana source, if one of the green spells was also a Chancellor Of The Tangle.
I know I just posted my SB on this page of the thread, but since there was a banning I have changed it quite a bit.
I substituted the 2 Blossoming Defense for 2 Dismember in the MD. I've played a few more random 2 player queue matches but I'll probably jump in a League finally tomorrow and/or Friday. I've been busy the last couple days and was waiting for the ban info.
Anyone else been jamming Barkhide Troll? Whoops, just realized M20 isn't out in paper until Friday.
Really have to thank you for sharing your original deck list here, it encouraged me to make some changes to mine. Now I'm looking forward to testing it against a friend's Goblin Eight Whack.
And I can't stress enough how lucky I was in deciding to pick up a playset of Hexdrinker three days ago. The price has spiked more than ten bucks a card since then... Yikes!
And I can't stress enough how lucky I was in deciding to pick up a playset of Hexdrinker three days ago. The price has spiked more than ten bucks a card since then... Yikes!
Oh I hear you! I picked up a playset of non foils at release for $7 each. Then just bit the bullet and also bought foil playset for 32$ each. It's crazy how much more they are now. The card is super legit though. Just as a 4/4 pro instant for four is game winning is a few match ups. The instalment payment plan is also just gravy given our low land count/almost 0 card draw/filtering .
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Like AmicDeep said, how is the lack of Scavenging Ooze? You only have one in your side.
One of my biggest questions is regarding the lack of Aspect of Hydra. One of the deck's biggest strengths is the ability to close down matches one turn faster with the use of Aspect, that would otherwise be a lot more difficult to win by giving the opponent an extra turn (like against Burn, Storm, Scapeshift, etc). This is one of THE reasons to play this deck, and has been said for a long time. Not being able to alpha strike through you opponent's board and playing Aspect on the unblocked attacker is something I would really miss while playing. How are you finding playing without it? I personally think Hunger of the Howlpack is not as good by far: even though it is permanent, only being able to give a creature +3/+3, and that only being after a creature has died (so most likely after combat) seems really suboptimal and will make you play a longer game than usual.
Other questions: Why have you not upgraded the manabase? Is it a budgetary issue? Even if you're not playing fetches, I would really suggest playing 2 Nurturing Peatland. Other than that, what about other utility lands like Hashep Oasis or Tranquil Thicket?
Can you tell more about Savage Swipe? we have almost no information on the card, and I'm really curious to how good it is etc. Is it really that good? Wouldn't you rather have a 2/2 split with Dismember?
How is Force of Vigor? Does it feel better/stronger than Natural State? What about the cost? How is the card 'disadvantage'?
Have you not missed having a big creature on board, like Steel Leaf Champion?
How is Hexdrinker?
4 Grafdigger's Cage feels like too much, but you've already commented about that yourself.
Steel Leaf Champion - The occasional Remand or far-more-common Planeswalker bounce (Teferi/Jace) is the worst feeling. Going wide has proven to be more powerful than it's evasion.
Veil Of Summer - I'm going to keep the it until I run into a relevant match or two and decide from there. The more I think about it, the more meh it seems. May just want an extra threat, instead. (The second Scavenging Ooze, perhaps.)
Aspect Of Hydra - I played 4 in all of my lists up until this build. Not having a GGG devotion creature made it the first suspect for cutting. Vines Of Vastwood usually provided the same role for a lethal attack in advance of the opponent's pivotal turn.
Forest - I'm still hung up on taking zero damage from my mana base. It just always feels like it matters if my opponent has Mountains. Treetop Village always delivers, but everything else hasn't done much for me.
Savage Swipe - This has typically read as a green Searing Blaze. 4 damage to target creature, and 2 to a player. Once in a while you have to trade it and your creature to bring something larger down (Thoughtknot Seer, for example.) I ran 4 Dismember previously. Far less Gurmag Angler now that Grixis has turned Esper.
Force Of Vigor - This card is either a blowout or a bit of a dud. It's a zero mana answer to Chalice Of The Void which the deck is pretty soft to, and a way through Ensnaring Bridge. Welding Jar embarrasses this card, though. Having to hold a Green card in your hand can make for some difficult choices, but in the match-ups that you want this card, you'll typically have a redundant 2CMC creature or something, anyway.
Hexdrinker - Usually insane. Just the threat of him on the table warps how opponent's play if they're trying to interact. The threat of leveling him has earned some concessions. Is also totally fine as a vanilla 2/1 for G. Having a brutal top deck like this alleviates some of the pressure pulling Scavenging Ooze may have put on.
Grafdigger's Cage - a concession to the state of Modern. This will change if the banlist changes. Relic Of Progenitus and/or an extra Scavenging Ooze, and a flex slot, likely.
The deck just feels far more consistent like this, and the London mulligan was a game changer as well. I'll post up more after I jam more matches over the weekend.
EDIT: I played 6 more matches, with 4-2 as a result.
2 matches against different 8-Rack opponents. Lost the first match, game 1 to Smallpox -> Ensnaring Bridge, game 3 to Smallpox -> Liliana Of The Veil -> Liliana Of The Veil. Could not race The Rack damage through all the edicts when out of gas. The other match I had Strangleroot Geist for his Smallpox and they didn't see Ensnaring Bridge. Nether Spirit was a frustrating blocker from their side, and solid tech in that deck.
Match against Eldrazi Tron where my opponent had it all in games 1 & 3. Two Eldrazi Temple, Chalice Of The Void on X=1 turn 2, and turn 4 All Is Dust, with threats on the 3rd and 5th turn both games. I was never in it. Solid curve through their clunky hand made for an easy game 2. Currently pretty indifferent on this match-up. Collector Ouphe is great against Walking Ballista. They had a lot of MD removal; Dismember, Warping Wail, and Spacial Contortion.
Match against Skred Red. They never cast Anger Of The Gods so perhaps luck was on my side. Game 1 they fired off 3 removal spells in the first 2 turns against my two 1CMC creatures and the Vines Of Vastwood I used to protect. After that my Barkhide Troll and Avatar Of The Resolute stuck. Those two creatures killed him over 3 turns while they played a Stormbreath Dragon and I played a Hexdrinker + Savage Swipe to kill it. Game 2 they had 1 early removal spell and then cast a Mind Stone into Planeswalkers; Chandra, Torch Of Defiance -> Koth Of The Hammer -> Koth Of The Hammer. I had 6 power in creatures attacking their life total with a 4/3 Avatar Of The Resolute killing the Planeswalkers as they were cast.
Match against UW Control. They used a Path To Exile on their second turn and a Force Of Negation on my Vines Of Vastwood. I felt ahead on cards, but I only had 2 creatures in my opening hand. They had Teferi, Time Raveler into Jace, The Mind Sculptor before I could re-establish anything. Games 2 and 3 were pretty similar to one another. They had some Path To Exile and Detention Sphere action, but I had Vines Of Vastwood and Barkhide Troll to deflect them. Timely Reinforcements is the most difficult part of this match up and they didn't cast any. Here I learned that even though Teferi, Time Raveler isn't doing much once he has used his -3 ability, he's a must kill so that we may use our Vines Of Vastwood etc reactively.
BG Midrange - I used Savage Swipe to kill their Hexdrinker. They weren't able to kill my second Hexdrinker and it 6/6'd the turn they passed to me at 6 life. Game 2 they had a Fatal Push but an otherwise durdly hand. I killed their Tarmogoyf and had 3 creatures of my own, one being a Strangleroot Geist. Only thing they could do was play Liliana Of The Veil and die to attacks.
I'm sticking with those 2 MD Blossoming Defense for now. I still haven't cast Veil Of Summer lol. Cheers gang.
This only thing I disagree with in your comments is the lack of fetches/ narnams I find the narnams insane value and the deck thinning is particularly useful (also 22 lands seems quite high for what is becoming a more resistant zoo deck, iv personaly droped to 20 to help keep the agressivnes of the deck).
But I'll have a play without them as it's been a while since I ran all basics.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Sideboarding with the deck has proven pretty difficult. I'm super satisfied with the main 60, but the extra 15 is ever-changing. What to board out is pretty tough without diluting the deck's plan too much.
Here's my current SB. Attacking all the degenerate decks that can win faster.
3 Force Of Vigor
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Gut Shot
3 Life Goes On
3 Pithing Needle
I still don't think I can beat a turn 2 Griselbrand if I only have the Pithing Needle. Unless I have double Avatar Of The Resolute early. I have been pretty consistently sticking him as a 6/5, though.
I'm 3-1 against UW control, which feels good. A lot better than the Steel Leaf Champion build faired. The only match I lost, they had Timely Reinforcements on turn 3 and Snapcaster Mage on turn 5 in game 1. Game 3 they miracled a Terminus with no set-up on turns 3 and 4 back-to-back when they were otherwise super dead. Ouch. I have otherwise been able to win through a turn 3 Timely Reinforcements, which also feels pretty liberating. That's probably my least favorite card to play against with the deck.
I can match pace with the creature plan against HogaakBridgeVineAltar, but lose to the Altar Of Dementia without a SB card. Still working that match-up out. I've only faced it twice.
I've played against about everything except Devoted Druid combo now, and I'm not sure how that match-up will fair.
Current record with the list is 17-7, in one League and the rest just 2-player queues. Probably jump into another League with it soon.
Are they worth it or is it better to just keep the forests and not take the life loss?
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
They might be useful as cheaper substitutes to fetchlands if you want to enable Narnam Renegade. But that would splashing a second color more problematic.
i bought two waterlogged gorves for the draw power but now i feel reallyyy bad for blowing 50$ on two vistas prior to asking you guys what the deal was. lol
Well Ill prob put one in Stompy and another in my commander deck.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
With Bridge From Below having been banned, the Vengevine / Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis deck plays a bit more fair. Frees up those SB slots that I formerly had dedicated to Grafdigger's Cage. I think the Allosaurus Rider / Neoform deck is both too inconsistent, and too few and far between to keep them for that match-up.
I've got a few different things I'm wanting to try out.
I havent played against it at all and i dont think the new mulligan is going to be all that crazy for it bc itll help everyone else find the SB hate for it too.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
I know I just posted my SB on this page of the thread, but since there was a banning I have changed it quite a bit.
2 Collector Ouphe
1 Dismember
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Fog
1 Force Of Vigor
2 Gut Shot
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Unravel The Aether
1 Weather The Storm
I substituted the 2 Blossoming Defense for 2 Dismember in the MD. I've played a few more random 2 player queue matches but I'll probably jump in a League finally tomorrow and/or Friday. I've been busy the last couple days and was waiting for the ban info.
Anyone else been jamming Barkhide Troll? Whoops, just realized M20 isn't out in paper until Friday.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Really have to thank you for sharing your original deck list here, it encouraged me to make some changes to mine. Now I'm looking forward to testing it against a friend's Goblin Eight Whack.
And I can't stress enough how lucky I was in deciding to pick up a playset of Hexdrinker three days ago. The price has spiked more than ten bucks a card since then... Yikes!
Oh I hear you! I picked up a playset of non foils at release for $7 each. Then just bit the bullet and also bought foil playset for 32$ each. It's crazy how much more they are now. The card is super legit though. Just as a 4/4 pro instant for four is game winning is a few match ups. The instalment payment plan is also just gravy given our low land count/almost 0 card draw/filtering .
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2098058#paper
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
I'm still liking Fog over Life Goes On. It works against Infect, is usually on parity against the red decks trying to grow their Monastery Swiftspear / Soul-Scar Mage for one big attack, and has also been really handy against the new Unearth / Lightning Skelemental deck.