A 4 mana card that only does something in your opener seems really sketchy in Burn, is my main worry. If it doesn't turn a matchup around I'm not into it..
Also, they can just bounce it first with echoing truth.
It's better than the Deflecting Palm that they can counter 4 times with Pact of Negation and you just drop it on turn 0 and play your game plan otherwise (mana denial against them). Actually, now that I think about it, Angels Grace/Unlife just saves them and they ignore the Leyline.
This is viable because it's playable for 0. It's straight unplayable at 4 mana. It's far better than Kor Firewalker in the mirror, and it is not remotely as narrow. It wrecks 8rack. It might even be playable against a control deck to turn their removal into shocks. It turns all of BGx interaction into shocks.
No one is suggesting it's a main deck card, just sideboard. On it's face, it appears broadly relevant.
I wouldn't say it does nothing bc with ppl talking about going back to 20 lands, it will be easier to get to 4 mana. I run 19 and still find a few games where I see 4 lands. When you said that angles grace and u life saves them, it can make it awkward timing for them to use their grace. May force them to use it before they want to
I would also argue that you're somewhat already familiar with sideboard cards that only do something if they're in your opener. Sure, you can topdeck a Rest in Peace by T2 and it's fine, but if you don't see it in your opener, you're not likely to see it this game. In that sense, it's either in your opener and "does something" or it's not in your opener and it "does nothing".
This Leyline is bad on T4 because you're generally well beyond it's effective period. You'd never want to pay mana for this effect. You want it on T0 when you get Inquisitioned or your Guide gets Bolted. I'd never cast a topdecked one unless I had nothing else to do.
The difference is that RIP doesn't need to be a 4-off to be useful. Also, 8rack is hardly a matchup to care about.
I don't play deflecting palm even in straight Boros because it's very easy to play around, especially now it's such a known quantity.
Maybe the leyline is great, but I think we should consider the worst case scenario in the best case (T0 leyline) in the various matchups and not simply consider it won if we do that. As I mentioned, storm and ad nauseam can just bounce it if necessary (which ad naus indeed doesn't due to grace/unlife) and similar answers should be thought of for other matchups. Jund will still happily IoK your GG T1 as it represents more dmg than 2 and how much do they 'have' to target you(r stuff) other than that? They can also just trophy it if they need/want to target a lot. On the other hand, it does nothing if they go T2 goyf into T3 lili discard, which doesn't target and puts a lot of pressure on.
In that sense it's similar to ensnaring bridge which was great when unanswerable and unexpected but trash when it became a known quantity with multiple easy answers (trophy, knight, fx) played maindeck. Imho, Burn cannot afford to play cards that have a high chance of being a dead draw and I think leyline will be that.
I'd love to be proven wrong and have it flip matchups around, but I haven't seen any examples yet.
You're acting as if people have said it's a guaranteed 4-of in every sideboard. All I've said is that it's going to get added the my extended sideboard binder for now. It can join the Deflecting Palm that I don't generally play, the Kor Firewalker that I don't generally play, the Volcanic Fallout/Anger of the Gods that I don't generally play. Surely you've got a pile of potential sideboard cards that aren't part of your 15?
8rack isn't a problem for Burn, but it certainly flattens that deck in situations where you might find yourself running into it often (perhaps locally). Against Storm (which I also don't think we need help against), it's a must-answer effect that comes down on T0 and can't get remanded. It similarly flattens the mirror, but it does it painlessly where Kor Firewalker doesn't. Kor Firewalker is far more narrow than the Leyline is.
I don't think it's actually necessary for the Leyline to flip matchups around to be worthwhile. I think it's worthwhile even in situations where it's just a 0 mana Shock, and there are matchups where it's going to either trigger repeatedly or make the opponent stumble.
I don't think new Leyline Of Combustion shuts of Altar Of Dementia win because they will mill you a couple times with Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis until they're tapped down and then push 20+ zombie tokes onto a Carrion Feeder and one-shot the rest of your library. Does cause them to require another piece of the puzzle, though.
That's likely too dangerous on their end. They should mill themselves to make the zombies and they can likely just wait for the attack step. If they target you with the Leyline in play, they run the risk of getting low enough that you can kill them at instant speed.
Can not he potentially change in depth burn? With the strong returns of spark elemental and Hellspark elemental ?
There is probably a deck for this guy, it may be a completely new deck. It's probably not for Burn.
I see this card in an RB 8 ball deck with Ball Lightning and the new Lightning Skelemental. Likely powered out by Flamekin Harbinger and Smoke Braider with support from Unearth, Fling, Assault Strobe etc. I also agree that I don't see this in burn with either spark or hellspark. To achieve redundancy, we'd have to put in more elementals and give up Guide, Swifty and Eidolon. I think burn loses too much doing this but I believe there is absolutely a Rakdos shell for this.
Guess I'll see whether it does something. I just don't like it (or leylines in general) because it swings so much between great and utter crap.
I don't think you can ever treat it as a 0 mana shock, however. There's a chance it is, but there's also a (bigger) chance that it's a 4-mana do nothing. So far I've seen you advocate for consistency and redundancy in Burn (which I agree with) so I'm a bit surprised you like it (even if it is in the SB maybe pile).
I've recently played the mirror with straight Boros (common library) containing 8 canopylands and if this matchup is anything to go by, 8 is definitely too many. It takes too much time and mana to crack them for cards in such a tight race and if you can't crack more than 1 realistically even though you probably have 2+, you're taking quite a bit of extra damage. I plan to test it in an FNM upcoming Friday because the Burn mirror is of course on the extreme end of the spectrum. UW control is the other extreme (where I expect it's awesome and you'd happily play 20 of them), but I'm not so sure about all the less extreme matchups. The safe option is to simply run 4 inspired vantage instead of fiery islet but I've played Burn for years and got.. burned.. by flood often enough to really want to push things.
If the game doesn't go long, you're more likely to see it in your opener than a later draw. If in situations where you're going to steamroll someone with it (say the mirror), it's worth the risk. Another deck that relies on targeting you or your permanents is going to be worth it as well.
I have been having a hell of a time updating my deck database from mtggoldfish, and I don't know what the problem is. Sometimes, it grabs 3 decks then freezes trying to connect. Sometimes it lasts much longer. It's freezing on an ssl handshake, but it seems that bypassing ssl doesn't help. I'm not sure if I'll be able to continue doing the hate updates (I know I missed the last one, apologies). I don't know if they put in some functionality on their end to stifle scrapers or what. It's possible that I could just rely on mtgtop8 instead, though. There's significant overlap between them.
At FNM tonight my Rakdos Burn got matched up with Boros Burn. Game-one - after finally winning a die roll! - I drew four B spells and three lands. I thought I had made a mistake keeping it when I realized it was three Gonti's Machinations and one Bump in the Night - I thought at first it was two and two - but it turned out really well. Won going away.
He got the second game. I might have took it but I drew all four Skullcracks and didn't get the fourth land until it was too late. I wound up one point of damage short.
Something similar happened to him the last game I think; too many two drops. He had to use burn to keep Goblin Guides from killing him and I squeaked it out.
After initially hating it, I'm warming up to GM; I'm learning to use it better and I suppose I may just keep it for now.
Humorously, after losing about a million auctions for Sunbaked Canyons on eBay, there was one in the prize pack I got for second place!
At FNM tonight my Rakdos Burn got matched up with Boros Burn. Game-one - after finally winning a die roll! - I drew four B spells and three lands. I thought I had made a mistake keeping it when I realized it was three Gonti's Machinations and one Bump in the Night - I thought at first it was two and two - but it turned out really well. Won going away.
He got the second game. I might have took it but I drew all four Skullcracks and didn't get the fourth land until it was too late. I wound up one point of damage short.
Something similar happened to him the last game I think; too many two drops. He had to use burn to keep Goblin Guides from killing him and I squeaked it out.
After initially hating it, I'm warming up to GM; I'm learning to use it better and I suppose I may just keep it for now.
Humorously, after losing about a million auctions for Sunbaked Canyons on eBay, there was one in the prize pack I got for second place!
Gonti's Machinations is so slept on, it's unreal. Unfortunately I can't really recommend it anymore, because Sunbaked Canyon is just that good, and I don't think we can reliably run three colors with the low land count needed for burn. Still, that card is no joke.
Notes on the manabase:
Sunbaked Canyon has seemed good enough that leaning less into fetch lands is something I’m interested in doing. I’m down to 7 fetches (good for turn 2 instant Searing Blaze two thirds of the time) and 0 Grim Lavamancer in the 75. Lavamancer has been difficult to turn on early game with less ways to get cards into the bin for 0 mana.
I still think Inspiring Vantage is the best land in the deck. Sunbaked Canyon plays nicely alongside it, as it can get your third land off the board sometimes so that a mid-game Vantage comes into play untapped. I do not want to cut any Vantages given how often Burn is racing in the current format.
Sunbaked Canyon has been good enough at helping find an extra spell in long and drawn out games, that I’m comfortable not running any extra material Burn spells in the board like Exquisite Firecraft. I think having Skullcracks to board in for Searing Blazes when they have no/minimal targets is good enough vs UWx control and similar decks.
I love going up to 20 lands to increase frequency in making the third land drop, while having good flood mitigation baked into the manabase.
On the sideboard:
The Hogaak matchup has not been so horrific that I want to take extreme measures. I’m exactly 50% in the matchup so far (which does make the matchup unfavorable, considering my general winrate) and it’s not as bad as the Dredge matchup is. A quick clock and a little GY disruption from Crypt is often enough to get there. Winning the die-roll feels critical, similar to the Humans matchup. A very large % of my games have gone to the pilot on the play. I continue to dislike Rest in Peace in Burn, as current graveyard decks want to race you, and they have tempo positive answers to RIP. The Hogaak matchup often comes down to a timely topdecked Burn spell to secure a race to a turn 4 kill. RIP is also frequently too slow on the draw to stop Hogaak from being cast on turn 2. I strongly recommend doing your homework on this matchup, as there are many small decision points for both players that can win/lose games.
I dislike playing any 3 mana cards in the board, as Sunbaked Canyon effectly costs 2 mana to cycle. The loosest slot currently is the third Searing Blood, and I have not found another option yet that I like more since removing Grim Lavamancer from the 75.
I will continue to respect the new Urza Thopter/Sword deck with at least 2-3 Smash to Smithereens.
At FNM tonight my Rakdos Burn got matched up with Boros Burn. Game-one - after finally winning a die roll! - I drew four B spells and three lands. I thought I had made a mistake keeping it when I realized it was three Gonti's Machinations and one Bump in the Night - I thought at first it was two and two - but it turned out really well. Won going away.
He got the second game. I might have took it but I drew all four Skullcracks and didn't get the fourth land until it was too late. I wound up one point of damage short.
Something similar happened to him the last game I think; too many two drops. He had to use burn to keep Goblin Guides from killing him and I squeaked it out.
After initially hating it, I'm warming up to GM; I'm learning to use it better and I suppose I may just keep it for now.
Humorously, after losing about a million auctions for Sunbaked Canyons on eBay, there was one in the prize pack I got for second place!
Gonti's Machinations is so slept on, it's unreal. Unfortunately I can't really recommend it anymore, because Sunbaked Canyon is just that good, and I don't think we can reliably run three colors with the low land count needed for burn. Still, that card is no joke.
I played RWB Burn back when we called it Dega, i.e. before there was a thing called Mardu. It's completely do-able with enough fetches. People started to splash G for Destructive Revelry when that was released. The Stomping Ground was sometimes main-deck, sometimes side-board.
But I don't want to go back there because of the mana-base. I want to keep my fast-lands and not rely on Shock-lands for two colors. I also want to keep the curve as low as it is in this Rakdos version. I am going to play the Sunbaked Canyon and I hope to get another; they will just replace fetches.
Update on the scraper: it seems to be crashing less frequently, and I'm saving copies of the data more frequently so that I can kill the script and restart it where it left off before. I'll be able to make the usual post at the beginning of the month.
Also, I finally got to play some Modern this past week on the local Modern night. Went 3-0-1, beating humans, tron, and merfolk. I only had 2 Canyons at the time, but I've got 2 more now and I'll be playing with 4 going forward. My manabase for now is 3 mountain, 2 foundry, 4 canyon, 2 vantage, 8 fetches.
what are some thoughts on the sideboard...too much gy hate? or is this correct with Bridgevine running amok
it was a good meta call for John Phillip Whetstone to run them.
Personally, it seems overboard to run 6 gy hate sources but it just might be necessary depending on your meta.
Although I preferred the 19 land approach to Burn, I am taking a liking the idea of 20 lands in Burn in complements to Sunbaked Canyon. I hope to snag my set of canyons soon.
The 3/3 split of Crypt and RIP was a great meta call as Bridgevine was the deck to beat that weekend; we saw Burn lists running that same amount of gravehate around the time of Creeping Chill’s Dredge resurgence.
Also it’s sad to see Burn’s metagame share continue to drop despite that first place finish and another in the top 8. It looks like Mono Red Phoenix is the red deck of choice for players now.
Also, they can just bounce it first with echoing truth.
This is viable because it's playable for 0. It's straight unplayable at 4 mana. It's far better than Kor Firewalker in the mirror, and it is not remotely as narrow. It wrecks 8rack. It might even be playable against a control deck to turn their removal into shocks. It turns all of BGx interaction into shocks.
No one is suggesting it's a main deck card, just sideboard. On it's face, it appears broadly relevant.
This Leyline is bad on T4 because you're generally well beyond it's effective period. You'd never want to pay mana for this effect. You want it on T0 when you get Inquisitioned or your Guide gets Bolted. I'd never cast a topdecked one unless I had nothing else to do.
I don't play deflecting palm even in straight Boros because it's very easy to play around, especially now it's such a known quantity.
Maybe the leyline is great, but I think we should consider the worst case scenario in the best case (T0 leyline) in the various matchups and not simply consider it won if we do that. As I mentioned, storm and ad nauseam can just bounce it if necessary (which ad naus indeed doesn't due to grace/unlife) and similar answers should be thought of for other matchups. Jund will still happily IoK your GG T1 as it represents more dmg than 2 and how much do they 'have' to target you(r stuff) other than that? They can also just trophy it if they need/want to target a lot. On the other hand, it does nothing if they go T2 goyf into T3 lili discard, which doesn't target and puts a lot of pressure on.
In that sense it's similar to ensnaring bridge which was great when unanswerable and unexpected but trash when it became a known quantity with multiple easy answers (trophy, knight, fx) played maindeck. Imho, Burn cannot afford to play cards that have a high chance of being a dead draw and I think leyline will be that.
I'd love to be proven wrong and have it flip matchups around, but I haven't seen any examples yet.
8rack isn't a problem for Burn, but it certainly flattens that deck in situations where you might find yourself running into it often (perhaps locally). Against Storm (which I also don't think we need help against), it's a must-answer effect that comes down on T0 and can't get remanded. It similarly flattens the mirror, but it does it painlessly where Kor Firewalker doesn't. Kor Firewalker is far more narrow than the Leyline is.
I don't think it's actually necessary for the Leyline to flip matchups around to be worthwhile. I think it's worthwhile even in situations where it's just a 0 mana Shock, and there are matchups where it's going to either trigger repeatedly or make the opponent stumble.
Hi,
Have you seen the new little elemental: Thunderkin Awakener ?
https://www.mtgpics.com/card?ref=m20162
Can not he potentially change in depth burn? With the strong returns of spark elemental and Hellspark elemental ?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I see this card in an RB 8 ball deck with Ball Lightning and the new Lightning Skelemental. Likely powered out by Flamekin Harbinger and Smoke Braider with support from Unearth, Fling, Assault Strobe etc. I also agree that I don't see this in burn with either spark or hellspark. To achieve redundancy, we'd have to put in more elementals and give up Guide, Swifty and Eidolon. I think burn loses too much doing this but I believe there is absolutely a Rakdos shell for this.
I don't think you can ever treat it as a 0 mana shock, however. There's a chance it is, but there's also a (bigger) chance that it's a 4-mana do nothing. So far I've seen you advocate for consistency and redundancy in Burn (which I agree with) so I'm a bit surprised you like it (even if it is in the SB maybe pile).
I've recently played the mirror with straight Boros (common library) containing 8 canopylands and if this matchup is anything to go by, 8 is definitely too many. It takes too much time and mana to crack them for cards in such a tight race and if you can't crack more than 1 realistically even though you probably have 2+, you're taking quite a bit of extra damage. I plan to test it in an FNM upcoming Friday because the Burn mirror is of course on the extreme end of the spectrum. UW control is the other extreme (where I expect it's awesome and you'd happily play 20 of them), but I'm not so sure about all the less extreme matchups. The safe option is to simply run 4 inspired vantage instead of fiery islet but I've played Burn for years and got.. burned.. by flood often enough to really want to push things.
I have been having a hell of a time updating my deck database from mtggoldfish, and I don't know what the problem is. Sometimes, it grabs 3 decks then freezes trying to connect. Sometimes it lasts much longer. It's freezing on an ssl handshake, but it seems that bypassing ssl doesn't help. I'm not sure if I'll be able to continue doing the hate updates (I know I missed the last one, apologies). I don't know if they put in some functionality on their end to stifle scrapers or what. It's possible that I could just rely on mtgtop8 instead, though. There's significant overlap between them.
He got the second game. I might have took it but I drew all four Skullcracks and didn't get the fourth land until it was too late. I wound up one point of damage short.
Something similar happened to him the last game I think; too many two drops. He had to use burn to keep Goblin Guides from killing him and I squeaked it out.
After initially hating it, I'm warming up to GM; I'm learning to use it better and I suppose I may just keep it for now.
Humorously, after losing about a million auctions for Sunbaked Canyons on eBay, there was one in the prize pack I got for second place!
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Gonti's Machinations is so slept on, it's unreal. Unfortunately I can't really recommend it anymore, because Sunbaked Canyon is just that good, and I don't think we can reliably run three colors with the low land count needed for burn. Still, that card is no joke.
I’ve won roughly 2/3 of my 50 matches so far and arrived at this list after a little bit of tweaking:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Instants/Sorceries
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Helix
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Sunbaked Canyon
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Path to Exile
3 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
3 Smash to Smithereens
Notes on the manabase:
Sunbaked Canyon has seemed good enough that leaning less into fetch lands is something I’m interested in doing. I’m down to 7 fetches (good for turn 2 instant Searing Blaze two thirds of the time) and 0 Grim Lavamancer in the 75. Lavamancer has been difficult to turn on early game with less ways to get cards into the bin for 0 mana.
I still think Inspiring Vantage is the best land in the deck. Sunbaked Canyon plays nicely alongside it, as it can get your third land off the board sometimes so that a mid-game Vantage comes into play untapped. I do not want to cut any Vantages given how often Burn is racing in the current format.
Sunbaked Canyon has been good enough at helping find an extra spell in long and drawn out games, that I’m comfortable not running any extra material Burn spells in the board like Exquisite Firecraft. I think having Skullcracks to board in for Searing Blazes when they have no/minimal targets is good enough vs UWx control and similar decks.
I love going up to 20 lands to increase frequency in making the third land drop, while having good flood mitigation baked into the manabase.
On the sideboard:
The Hogaak matchup has not been so horrific that I want to take extreme measures. I’m exactly 50% in the matchup so far (which does make the matchup unfavorable, considering my general winrate) and it’s not as bad as the Dredge matchup is. A quick clock and a little GY disruption from Crypt is often enough to get there. Winning the die-roll feels critical, similar to the Humans matchup. A very large % of my games have gone to the pilot on the play. I continue to dislike Rest in Peace in Burn, as current graveyard decks want to race you, and they have tempo positive answers to RIP. The Hogaak matchup often comes down to a timely topdecked Burn spell to secure a race to a turn 4 kill. RIP is also frequently too slow on the draw to stop Hogaak from being cast on turn 2. I strongly recommend doing your homework on this matchup, as there are many small decision points for both players that can win/lose games.
I dislike playing any 3 mana cards in the board, as Sunbaked Canyon effectly costs 2 mana to cycle. The loosest slot currently is the third Searing Blood, and I have not found another option yet that I like more since removing Grim Lavamancer from the 75.
I will continue to respect the new Urza Thopter/Sword deck with at least 2-3 Smash to Smithereens.
But I don't want to go back there because of the mana-base. I want to keep my fast-lands and not rely on Shock-lands for two colors. I also want to keep the curve as low as it is in this Rakdos version. I am going to play the Sunbaked Canyon and I hope to get another; they will just replace fetches.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Also, I finally got to play some Modern this past week on the local Modern night. Went 3-0-1, beating humans, tron, and merfolk. I only had 2 Canyons at the time, but I've got 2 more now and I'll be playing with 4 going forward. My manabase for now is 3 mountain, 2 foundry, 4 canyon, 2 vantage, 8 fetches.
what are some thoughts on the sideboard...too much gy hate? or is this correct with Bridgevine running amok
it was a good meta call for John Phillip Whetstone to run them.
Personally, it seems overboard to run 6 gy hate sources but it just might be necessary depending on your meta.
Although I preferred the 19 land approach to Burn, I am taking a liking the idea of 20 lands in Burn in complements to Sunbaked Canyon. I hope to snag my set of canyons soon.
Also it’s sad to see Burn’s metagame share continue to drop despite that first place finish and another in the top 8. It looks like Mono Red Phoenix is the red deck of choice for players now.