skewer seems like a rift bolt you can't cast on T1 that doesn't usually pump Swiftspear. I *guess* it's better in the main than skullcrack (most often cut card).
Light the stage seems no better than Faithless Looting. If you top deck it's divination (which I guess isn't *dead* especially if you flood a little). If you can activate it... our average card deals 2 damage (including lands) and costs 1.5 mana. So R draw 2 is something like 4 mana deal 4 that you can split over 2 turns if you like (I forgot that it "chandraws" so only till EOT). I mean, yeah sometimes they are at 12 and you have 3 mountains and you go bolt->stage->bolt->bolt but eh, sometimes you hit a dude and they have have a blocker. So I have to be convinced on it.
Cinder Vine - that might just straight swap in for DRev. I mean, you can use it instead of Eidolon on the draw - even with no disenchant targets if you aren't playing a creature deck. It *does* cost 3 to disenchant but split over 2 turns. Also resilient to Field of Ruin on your Stomping Grounds!
@elconquistador, me neither im not a player who jumps on a new card just because its new. I always ask myself: what would i remove for that card, and is it better ?
Skewer is a good card. Almost good enough to make the 75. What makes the difference for me is the sorcery speed.
It will put a weight on your other instants just to be able to use the spectacle.
It feels like the setup cost to get there is just high enough to make me hesitate...
You say that you rarely end up with only 2 lands in play.
I agree with you.
In that case Then, why not play shard volley ?....
It will ALWAYS cost 1 and an instant, which is strictly better than skewer ...
Im still hesitant.
PS, im playing 3 skullcrack maindeck (0 side) and i believe i will keep them main for GP Toronto.
Theres so many accidental lifegain to balance the fact that 2 mana 3 damage is below average.
And i will be playing cinder lash instead of destructive revelry. It offers the possibility to be proactive instead of reactive, which is the vision that burn decks want to have. Just keep one mana up instead of 2.
And in worst case, its a 3 mana destrucive revelry. Anyway its not at turn 2 that you need to disenchant (ok maybe kci or hardened scales, but those games sometime you can disenchant turn 3 and still be ok)
And in bonus, you might get free damage point.
To me, Burn is a set of core cards that are nigh untouchable and then a set of flex cards. The core is this:
and that gets you to 47-48 cards that are generally only going to get replaced when something ridiculously powerful pushes them out (though I acknowledge that some people cut Eidolons).
The flex cards are typically filled out by some combination of the following:
and maybe Shard Volley gets a fun-of shot (I do this from time to time). Those flex cards can serve a prominent role in creature matchups (Blaze, Lavamancer), when lifegain matters (Skullcrack), or are just strong cards but possibly expendable due to CMC (Helix). I think that Skewer the Critics pushes out some of these flex cards. Just from a cursory search of 2-star or better decks on mtgtop8, Burn plays 3.1 Skullcrack, 3.7 Helix, 4 Blaze, 1.2 Grim Lavamancer, and 0.4 Shard Volley, and you need to fill 12-13 slots. For me, this is currently:
or play the 4 Helix and move all the Skullcracks over to the side. In a creature light meta, you could move the Blazes and keep the Skullcracks and Helices. There's room in those flex slots for some number of Skewer the Critics.
Specifically to "why not Shard Volley": I play 1 because I think that it's generally easy to pay Shard Volley's cost once per game. I'm less willing to pay it repeatedly, which is why I don't think that it's playable as more than a fun-of. By comparison, you aren't incurring a substantial cost in order to bend a Burn deck to pay R for Skewer the Critics (the cost is basically "play Burn"). Sometimes it'll cost 3, but you'll generally be fully capable of paying that in such situations. There might be some awkward situations against control where they're at 3 and you have Spike, Skewer, 3 lands, and they counter Spike, but that is not a substantial likelihood.
Been a long while since I've played burn. However Skewer the critics made me immediately sit up and take notice. This card certainly seems like it should be included to me. We should keep in mind that it isn't "add all 4 or nothing." It does seem like a 4 of to me.
It's greatest strength is allowing 20 land decks to become 19 land decks in my humble opinion. While my deck was already at 19 lands, I easily made spots for it by removing 2 Grim lavamancer, 1 skullcrack and 1 shard volley. I believe the question isn't if we should play it, but how to make room for it and 3 or 4 copies?
BTW that still leaves me with a fun-of shard volley in the deck. Happy to replace my second copy with skewer, but won't give up my last one! In my very limited experience, 19 lands seems better than 20 which makes me eye 1 cost spells more.
and that gets you to 47-48 cards that are generally only going to get replaced when something ridiculously powerful pushes them out (though I acknowledge that some people cut Eidolons).
I like the first skewer a lot more than the 4th Boros Charm.
Yeah but he says something relevant. Are we really ready to remove Blaze or Crack or Helix now ? Which one would you remove for Skewer ?
Then, would you want to remove an another 2 mana spell for Volley ? Which one ?
I think of the three, Helix is the least valuable because the other cards are essentially pre-boarded, leaving room for more specific answers in the sideboard. I cut my playset of Sovereign's Bite for Skewer.
I don't think Burn can afford to cut white entirely because I don't think Burn can afford to lose Path to Exile and I don't think there's enough in mono-R to fill out the deck. Given that, Boros Charm is pretty much locked in for me. Helix isn't, though.
I don't think Burn can afford to cut white entirely because I don't think Burn can afford to lose Path to Exile and I don't think there's enough in mono-R to fill out the deck. Given that, Boros Charm is pretty much locked in for me. Helix isn't, though.
What do you think of Assassin's Tropy, elcon? You don't seem as hot on it as I am.
and that gets you to 47-48 cards that are generally only going to get replaced when something ridiculously powerful pushes them out (though I acknowledge that some people cut Eidolons).
I like the first skewer a lot more than the 4th Boros Charm.
I love the idea of cutting white entirely
I think we really can, run a smoother and less painful BR with a lower curve sounds great. I've been testing with both spectacle cards and shard volley, and holy ***** it feels really good and fast and consistent.
Burn hate is very narrow, so ultimately how you sideboard will depend on your local meta. I don't play MTGO, so I can't comment on that. However, going itno an open meta, I'd probably not dedicate seven sideboard slots to anti creature cards. That goes double for searing blood. I love that card against humans, but that is less of a problem now. I'd want to keep four skullcrack in the seventy-five to counterboard against hate. I doubt I'd remove it entirely from the main for skewer.
I'd probably look at the cards that are good but situational as the maindeck omissions for Skewer. That means Skullcrack, Searing Blaze, and Helix are all up for grabs. Blaze and Helix both serve the same role as being helpful in aggro matchups, skullcrack obviously is an out against various hate cards that show up in maindecks like Helix, ScOoze, and Wurmcoil. If you run a list like me, 13 creatures, 19 lands, 28 burn spells running a smooth 4 of all the traditional burn spells, I'll probably start by cutting one of each of these three and then one additional helix. Skewer speeds the deck up slightly anyways.
Ive been messing around with a RB Skewer inclusive deck that only focuses on getting a turn 3/4 win through quick creatures and "Lightning Bolt" type cards
idea of the deck is build around a t3 win ideal situation:
t1 - play mana + swiftspear or guide and hit (for life -1 or -2)
t2 - play mana + use t1 swiftspear or guide to hit + "lightning bolt" + "lightning bolt" (for life -9 or -8)
t3 - play mana + use t1 swiftspear or guide to hit + "lightning bolt" + "lightning bolt" + "lightning bolt" (for life -13 or -11)
I've been running 19-land Mardu burn for a while now - Bump in the Night is a great card worth splashing even without the Flashback. I've been off Boros Charm as a result.
I think if we run any sort of 3-colour deck we need to keep Lightning Helix to mitigate the fetch+shock damage, which is definitely real.
For me, I think I'll be cutting Skullcrack entirely, replace with 4x Skewer the Critics, then trying 2x Rain of Gore again in the sideboard.
Skullcrack doesn't hit creatures, and in games where the lifegain matters you want to hold up just in case they castTimely Reinforcements for example. Its a reactive card in those matches similar to Deflecting Palm. However, Skullcrack isn't great against things like Scavenging Ooze. Rain of Gore is often repeatable damage and difficult to remove. The only lifelinker I'm worried about is Wurmcoil Engine, but Tron is a good matchup on the whole anyway.
I don't think we can cut White entirely due to Path (there's nothing like it in Black apart from maybe Terminate?), Helix and RiP, and agree with ElCon that Mono-red isn't quite there yet (but definitely closer!!).
Overall, I'm excited. I think Burn will increase in the meta, Skewer the Critics is the real deal, meaning we do need to be prepared for more lifegain, but ultimately we get a much lower curve to win games faster as a result. Bump in the Night has already done that for me, Skewer will make it even more so. We might also need to be worried about an upsurge in Chalice of the Void decks as a result - back to Shattering Spree in the SB...?
I don't think Burn can afford to cut white entirely because I don't think Burn can afford to lose Path to Exile and I don't think there's enough in mono-R to fill out the deck. Given that, Boros Charm is pretty much locked in for me. Helix isn't, though.
What do you think of Assassin's Tropy, elcon? You don't seem as hot on it as I am.
It hits more stuff than path, of course, but I think being 2cmc is a big problem. If there was a lot of other stuff in Black that made me switch to black, I'd probably consider it.
Why would it be better to go 3 blaze 3 crack 2 helix 4 skewer, over 4 blaze 4 crack 0 helix 4 skewer ?
That's the nature of flex spots. If killing creatures is important, you can't cut Blaze. If countering lifegain in the main is important, you can't cut Skullcrack. If it's important to gain some life yourself, you still want Helix. How the flex slots are used is a meta dependent decision.
Skullcrack and Searing Blaze situationally very valuable, but are lackluster otherwise. Sometimes Helix feels like it's a Lightning Strike when the 3 life isn't relevant, but at least it hurts creatures where Skullcrack doesn't.
Exactly. If you are going into a blind meta, or at least a very large field like an SCG or GP type event, I believe it would be a mistake to gear your maindeck with cards that are either excellent or meh. Skullcrack is great when it counters a Knight of Autumn trigger AND deals damage, because you've virtually timewalked an opponent who just played a card that did virtually nothing AND progressed your gameplan. Otherwise though, its just a spell I toss at my opponent's end step to get it out of my hand. Blaze is the closest to card advantage in this deck when it can act as two bolts for one card, but I've lost games where I needed to topdeck basically any other spell. Helix is probably the worst of the three, only being particularly good in the mirror. There's just enough fast aggro in the format to justify it. Thus, I'd rather cut down on situational spells with a lower EV over the course of eight rounds.
I'm not saying this will be optimal in six months, just that I'd rather diversify the flex spots instead of saying "well this is the least useful one so I'll cut that entirely from the maindeck" while figuring things out. It's not like anyone has to commit to a particular list immediately anyways.
Increase in chalice and possibly LoS so idk if we can quite cute white/green. Ive been on mardu as well. With this new bolt i think my list will be something like this:
Changes ive made in the main to make room for 3 skewers are:
-1 vexing devil
-1 lavamancer (maybe 2 instead of eidolon?)
-1 eidolon (which i feel is wrong?)
The reason im on this build is simply most interaction, most instants, and dont lose speed. Right now in this list we see 29 burn spells. Of which 14 are instants, and also of which 21 can hit dome or creatures. 21 possible 1 drop burn spells and 8 two drops. Overall i believe my curve averages at 1.268. Yes i plan on buying another Cliffs to replace 1 blood crypt but im currently buying a lions eye diamond for edh. I have been on the 19 land team since about a week after i tested 20 lands and a week testing 18 lands and ive been on burn since modern came out so im on 19 for good.
Sb is still in the air for changes as id like to fit in some number of satyr firedancer and possible some number of immolation shaman. Also thinking of fitting in some enchantment hate now too. Something like 2 RoG and 1 Skullcrack, 2 rakdos charm and 1 smash. Keep paths and palm (maybe cut palm?) And cut searing blood. That will make 5-6 spaces in sb. Maybe put 2nd lavamancer in sb. So my next point of discussion, bc i didnt rly see much, if any, discussion is on immolation shaman. Is it worth sb slots? And for that matter... is satyr still good sb tech in a big tourney?
What does Shaman really give you that Harsh Mentor doesn't? The 5 mana ability on it is basically flavor text. It's a 1/3 instead of a 2/2, but Harsh Mentor deals 2 instead of 1 when it triggers. If you aren't already playing Mentor, Shaman isn't worth playing.
Edit: no, not split shaman and satyr. Split Blaze, Helix, and Skullcrack. This is a case of me replying to a comment and other comments showing up before I finished writing mine, sorry for the confusion.
What does Shaman really give you that Harsh Mentor doesn't? The 5 mana ability on it is basically flavor text. It's a 1/3 instead of a 2/2, but Harsh Mentor deals 2 instead of 1 when it triggers. If you aren't already playing Mentor, Shaman isn't worth playing.
Edit: no, not split shaman and satyr. Split Blaze, Helix, and Skullcrack. This is a case of me replying to a comment and other comments showing up before I finished writing mine, sorry for the confusion.
Same. The comments are pouring in quick. Gonna have to quote every response i guess. Lol
So guys, you really consider the skewer to be a card in the "core cards" 4of in the main deck of RW/g burn ?
I would really like to believe that, and then just leave 8-9 flex cards (skullcrack, helix, blaze) as elconquistador listed it in a early post. I totally agree with your list of core/flex cards.
The only thing that still makes me hesitate is only the "sorcery" part of the card :S
I'm currently playing 3 skullcrack, 4 blaze and 4 helix maindeck. Yes i know i could remove 1 blaze/1 helix to add 2-3 skewer.
I will try to test it before GP toronto, but i'm still hesitant :'(
If you guys have the deck on mtgo/coackatrice and also want to test the card (when it will be legal) please share us your comments here.
@raghouz, Since GP portland and the last GP modern last week, I also believe that Burn is played a lot.
thats why i keep my 2 kor firewalker in my sideboard. Yes i know its narrow (pretty much only agasint burn) but its really good in the mirror.
here is my current sideboard (lets say if GP toronto started today):
2 path
2 kor firewalker
3 RIP
2 searing blood
2 deflecting palm
4 cinder lash (the new destructive revelry)
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Light the stage seems no better than Faithless Looting. If you top deck it's divination (which I guess isn't *dead* especially if you flood a little). If you can activate it... our average card deals 2 damage (including lands) and costs 1.5 mana. So R draw 2 is something like 4 mana deal 4
that you can split over 2 turns if you like(I forgot that it "chandraws" so only till EOT). I mean, yeah sometimes they are at 12 and you have 3 mountains and you go bolt->stage->bolt->bolt but eh, sometimes you hit a dude and they have have a blocker. So I have to be convinced on it.Cinder Vine - that might just straight swap in for DRev. I mean, you can use it instead of Eidolon on the draw - even with no disenchant targets if you aren't playing a creature deck. It *does* cost 3 to disenchant but split over 2 turns. Also resilient to Field of Ruin on your Stomping Grounds!
To me, Burn is a set of core cards that are nigh untouchable and then a set of flex cards. The core is this:
and that gets you to 47-48 cards that are generally only going to get replaced when something ridiculously powerful pushes them out (though I acknowledge that some people cut Eidolons).
The flex cards are typically filled out by some combination of the following:
and maybe Shard Volley gets a fun-of shot (I do this from time to time). Those flex cards can serve a prominent role in creature matchups (Blaze, Lavamancer), when lifegain matters (Skullcrack), or are just strong cards but possibly expendable due to CMC (Helix). I think that Skewer the Critics pushes out some of these flex cards. Just from a cursory search of 2-star or better decks on mtgtop8, Burn plays 3.1 Skullcrack, 3.7 Helix, 4 Blaze, 1.2 Grim Lavamancer, and 0.4 Shard Volley, and you need to fill 12-13 slots. For me, this is currently:
I could easily go with:
or play the 4 Helix and move all the Skullcracks over to the side. In a creature light meta, you could move the Blazes and keep the Skullcracks and Helices. There's room in those flex slots for some number of Skewer the Critics.
Specifically to "why not Shard Volley": I play 1 because I think that it's generally easy to pay Shard Volley's cost once per game. I'm less willing to pay it repeatedly, which is why I don't think that it's playable as more than a fun-of. By comparison, you aren't incurring a substantial cost in order to bend a Burn deck to pay R for Skewer the Critics (the cost is basically "play Burn"). Sometimes it'll cost 3, but you'll generally be fully capable of paying that in such situations. There might be some awkward situations against control where they're at 3 and you have Spike, Skewer, 3 lands, and they counter Spike, but that is not a substantial likelihood.
It's greatest strength is allowing 20 land decks to become 19 land decks in my humble opinion. While my deck was already at 19 lands, I easily made spots for it by removing 2 Grim lavamancer, 1 skullcrack and 1 shard volley. I believe the question isn't if we should play it, but how to make room for it and 3 or 4 copies?
BTW that still leaves me with a fun-of shard volley in the deck. Happy to replace my second copy with skewer, but won't give up my last one! In my very limited experience, 19 lands seems better than 20 which makes me eye 1 cost spells more.
I like the first skewer a lot more than the 4th Boros Charm.
I love the idea of cutting white entirely
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I think of the three, Helix is the least valuable because the other cards are essentially pre-boarded, leaving room for more specific answers in the sideboard. I cut my playset of Sovereign's Bite for Skewer.
What do you think of Assassin's Tropy, elcon? You don't seem as hot on it as I am.
I think we really can, run a smoother and less painful BR with a lower curve sounds great. I've been testing with both spectacle cards and shard volley, and holy ***** it feels really good and fast and consistent.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I'd probably look at the cards that are good but situational as the maindeck omissions for Skewer. That means Skullcrack, Searing Blaze, and Helix are all up for grabs. Blaze and Helix both serve the same role as being helpful in aggro matchups, skullcrack obviously is an out against various hate cards that show up in maindecks like Helix, ScOoze, and Wurmcoil. If you run a list like me, 13 creatures, 19 lands, 28 burn spells running a smooth 4 of all the traditional burn spells, I'll probably start by cutting one of each of these three and then one additional helix. Skewer speeds the deck up slightly anyways.
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Spark Elemental
SPELLS 29
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Bump in the Night
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
4 Shard Volley
4 Forked Bolt
1 Burst Lightning
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Blood Crypt
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Mountain
idea of the deck is build around a t3 win ideal situation:
t1 - play mana + swiftspear or guide and hit (for life -1 or -2)
t2 - play mana + use t1 swiftspear or guide to hit + "lightning bolt" + "lightning bolt" (for life -9 or -8)
t3 - play mana + use t1 swiftspear or guide to hit + "lightning bolt" + "lightning bolt" + "lightning bolt" (for life -13 or -11)
I think if we run any sort of 3-colour deck we need to keep Lightning Helix to mitigate the fetch+shock damage, which is definitely real.
For me, I think I'll be cutting Skullcrack entirely, replace with 4x Skewer the Critics, then trying 2x Rain of Gore again in the sideboard.
Skullcrack doesn't hit creatures, and in games where the lifegain matters you want to hold up just in case they castTimely Reinforcements for example. Its a reactive card in those matches similar to Deflecting Palm. However, Skullcrack isn't great against things like Scavenging Ooze. Rain of Gore is often repeatable damage and difficult to remove. The only lifelinker I'm worried about is Wurmcoil Engine, but Tron is a good matchup on the whole anyway.
I don't think we can cut White entirely due to Path (there's nothing like it in Black apart from maybe Terminate?), Helix and RiP, and agree with ElCon that Mono-red isn't quite there yet (but definitely closer!!).
Overall, I'm excited. I think Burn will increase in the meta, Skewer the Critics is the real deal, meaning we do need to be prepared for more lifegain, but ultimately we get a much lower curve to win games faster as a result. Bump in the Night has already done that for me, Skewer will make it even more so. We might also need to be worried about an upsurge in Chalice of the Void decks as a result - back to Shattering Spree in the SB...?
It hits more stuff than path, of course, but I think being 2cmc is a big problem. If there was a lot of other stuff in Black that made me switch to black, I'd probably consider it.
That's the nature of flex spots. If killing creatures is important, you can't cut Blaze. If countering lifegain in the main is important, you can't cut Skullcrack. If it's important to gain some life yourself, you still want Helix. How the flex slots are used is a meta dependent decision.
Skullcrack and Searing Blaze situationally very valuable, but are lackluster otherwise. Sometimes Helix feels like it's a Lightning Strike when the 3 life isn't relevant, but at least it hurts creatures where Skullcrack doesn't.
I'm not saying this will be optimal in six months, just that I'd rather diversify the flex spots instead of saying "well this is the least useful one so I'll cut that entirely from the maindeck" while figuring things out. It's not like anyone has to commit to a particular list immediately anyways.
4 arid mesa
2 blood crypt
1 blackcleave cliffs
1 sacred foundry
2 inspiring vantage
5 mountain
4 goblin guide
4 monastery swiftspear
3 eidolon of the great revel
1 grim lavamancer
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
4 bump in the night
4 lightning helix
4 searing blaze
3 skewer the critics
2 shard volley
3 path to exile
3 smash to smithereens
2 rakdos charm
2 rain of gore
2 skullcrack
2 searing blood
1 deflecring palm
Changes ive made in the main to make room for 3 skewers are:
-1 vexing devil
-1 lavamancer (maybe 2 instead of eidolon?)
-1 eidolon (which i feel is wrong?)
The reason im on this build is simply most interaction, most instants, and dont lose speed. Right now in this list we see 29 burn spells. Of which 14 are instants, and also of which 21 can hit dome or creatures. 21 possible 1 drop burn spells and 8 two drops. Overall i believe my curve averages at 1.268. Yes i plan on buying another Cliffs to replace 1 blood crypt but im currently buying a lions eye diamond for edh. I have been on the 19 land team since about a week after i tested 20 lands and a week testing 18 lands and ive been on burn since modern came out so im on 19 for good.
Sb is still in the air for changes as id like to fit in some number of satyr firedancer and possible some number of immolation shaman. Also thinking of fitting in some enchantment hate now too. Something like 2 RoG and 1 Skullcrack, 2 rakdos charm and 1 smash. Keep paths and palm (maybe cut palm?) And cut searing blood. That will make 5-6 spaces in sb. Maybe put 2nd lavamancer in sb. So my next point of discussion, bc i didnt rly see much, if any, discussion is on immolation shaman. Is it worth sb slots? And for that matter... is satyr still good sb tech in a big tourney?
My inclination is that Skewer is going to add 4 to the core cards and we'll be down to 8-9 flex cards, honestly.
Didnt see the other comments when i posted this. My b
Edit: no, not split shaman and satyr. Split Blaze, Helix, and Skullcrack. This is a case of me replying to a comment and other comments showing up before I finished writing mine, sorry for the confusion.
Same. The comments are pouring in quick. Gonna have to quote every response i guess. Lol
I would really like to believe that, and then just leave 8-9 flex cards (skullcrack, helix, blaze) as elconquistador listed it in a early post. I totally agree with your list of core/flex cards.
The only thing that still makes me hesitate is only the "sorcery" part of the card :S
I'm currently playing 3 skullcrack, 4 blaze and 4 helix maindeck. Yes i know i could remove 1 blaze/1 helix to add 2-3 skewer.
I will try to test it before GP toronto, but i'm still hesitant :'(
If you guys have the deck on mtgo/coackatrice and also want to test the card (when it will be legal) please share us your comments here.
@raghouz, Since GP portland and the last GP modern last week, I also believe that Burn is played a lot.
thats why i keep my 2 kor firewalker in my sideboard. Yes i know its narrow (pretty much only agasint burn) but its really good in the mirror.
here is my current sideboard (lets say if GP toronto started today):
2 path
2 kor firewalker
3 RIP
2 searing blood
2 deflecting palm
4 cinder lash (the new destructive revelry)