Burn is a subset of Red Deck Wins, just like all squares are rectangles. Red Deck Wins is built on "low cost, efficient red stuff".
Is the primary game plan to incrementally use direct player damage spells and back it up by efficient creature spells? If yes, it's Burn. While some might call Burn a "spell combo deck", I think they're just trying to be cheeky and clever. Burn is a red aggro deck that attacks via the stack rather than combat, but is still consistent with the idea of "RDW".
The mono-R Phoenix deck plays burn spells but the primary game plan isn't a Burn game plan. 12 cards that draw/filter/discard for value aren't consistent with the Burn game plan, even if the result is sometimes "oh look at that, Fiery Temper for R". The game plan is more to reward you solely for playing spells/filling the yard and some of those spells incidentally deal damage to the face. The Phoenix deck is a lot closer to being a spell combo deck, but is at least built on card synergies. It's a red deck, but I'm kind of hesitant to really call it "Red Deck Wins" because it's straying very far from being a pile of efficient red stuff.
The Red Phoenix deck makes use of quite a few cards that Burn or Red Reck Wins also uses. I found that the Mono Red version of Phoenix plays, different then the Blue/Red.
Having 4 swift spear, 4 lightning bolt, and 4 lava pike , starts to sound like the beginning of a Red Deck Wins list..
You are correct it does feel a bit combo like, but prowess and burn spells are there too. So where does this deck fit ?
Burn is a subset of Red Deck Wins, just like all squares are rectangles. Red Deck Wins is built on "low cost, efficient red stuff".
Is the primary game plan to incrementally use direct player damage spells and back it up by efficient creature spells? If yes, it's Burn. While some might call Burn a "spell combo deck", I think they're just trying to be cheeky and clever. Burn is a red aggro deck that attacks via the stack rather than combat, but is still consistent with the idea of "RDW".
The mono-R Phoenix deck plays burn spells but the primary game plan isn't a Burn game plan. 12 cards that draw/filter/discard for value aren't consistent with the Burn game plan, even if the result is sometimes "oh look at that, Fiery Temper for R". The game plan is more to reward you solely for playing spells/filling the yard and some of those spells incidentally deal damage to the face. The Phoenix deck is a lot closer to being a spell combo deck, but is at least built on card synergies. It's a red deck, but I'm kind of hesitant to really call it "Red Deck Wins" because it's straying very far from being a pile of efficient red stuff.
The Red Phoenix deck makes use of quite a few cards that Burn or Red Reck Wins also uses. I found that the Mono Red version of Phoenix plays, different then the Blue/Red.
Having 4 swift spear, 4 lightning bolt, and 4 lava pike , starts to sound like the beginning of a Red Deck Wins list..
You are correct it does feel a bit combo like, but prowess and burn spells are there too. So where does this deck fit ?
Jund and Jeskai use Lightning Bolt and sometimes win with "bolt you". They aren't Burn decks.
The Phoenix deck shares some cards with Burn, but the game plan is decidedly different. You'd never play Faithless Looting or Tormenting Voice in Burn, and Manamorphose doesn't have a place in Burn either despite the fact that a bunch of content writers and pros tried to push it as something almost every deck should play. I think it's a lot closer to being a red combo deck than a red aggro deck (which is what rdw is).
What I do know is that the Phoenix deck isn't Burn and thus isn't the topic of this thread.
Burn is a subset of Red Deck Wins, just like all squares are rectangles. Red Deck Wins is built on "low cost, efficient red stuff".
Is the primary game plan to incrementally use direct player damage spells and back it up by efficient creature spells? If yes, it's Burn. While some might call Burn a "spell combo deck", I think they're just trying to be cheeky and clever. Burn is a red aggro deck that attacks via the stack rather than combat, but is still consistent with the idea of "RDW".
The mono-R Phoenix deck plays burn spells but the primary game plan isn't a Burn game plan. 12 cards that draw/filter/discard for value aren't consistent with the Burn game plan, even if the result is sometimes "oh look at that, Fiery Temper for R". The game plan is more to reward you solely for playing spells/filling the yard and some of those spells incidentally deal damage to the face. The Phoenix deck is a lot closer to being a spell combo deck, but is at least built on card synergies. It's a red deck, but I'm kind of hesitant to really call it "Red Deck Wins" because it's straying very far from being a pile of efficient red stuff.
The Red Phoenix deck makes use of quite a few cards that Burn or Red Reck Wins also uses. I found that the Mono Red version of Phoenix plays, different then the Blue/Red.
Having 4 swift spear, 4 lightning bolt, and 4 lava pike , starts to sound like the beginning of a Red Deck Wins list..
You are correct it does feel a bit combo like, but prowess and burn spells are there too. So where does this deck fit ?
Jund and Jeskai use Lightning Bolt and sometimes win with "bolt you". They aren't Burn decks.
The Phoenix deck shares some cards with Burn, but the game plan is decidedly different. You'd never play Faithless Looting or Tormenting Voice in Burn, and Manamorphose doesn't have a place in Burn either despite the fact that a bunch of content writers and pros tried to push it as something almost every deck should play. I think it's a lot closer to being a red combo deck than a red aggro deck (which is what rdw is).
What I do know is that the Phoenix deck isn't Burn and thus isn't the topic of this thread.
Having 4 lightning bolt or lightning helix, and occasionally bolting someone for a win is different then having 17-20 sources of "burn damage"
4x Lightning Bolt, 4x Lava Spike, 4x Fiery Temper, 2x gut shot, potential 2 from a single flame jab or up to 16 damage from 2 risk factors if they take it.
That is a burn package win condition.
I would like to point out once again that the Phoenix deck is not the subject of this thread and that discussion of it doesn't really have a place here (I've seen mods have crack down on "off topic discussions" in the past).
I am thinking of dropping the stomping ground to go straight boros. It sucks, because one person in my largest store always plays bogles, but I just can't think of any other matchup right now that justifies it. I used to go with a 2/2 split of smash to smithereens and wear // tear to not automatically scoop.
I do think I'm going to up my gy hate count to five or six.
I'm preparing for GP Toronto (Modern) and I think I will go with 4 GY hate.
(3 RIP and 1 Relic of progenitus) No reason why 3-1, I could also go 4 RIP... the important here is the 4 GY slots.
I think that going to 6 GY hate slots is too much. I think that 4 slots is perfect.
What do you sideboard out ? What happens if you draw 2-3 cards of GY hate .... those will be dead cards.
Yes there are a lot more decks using GY right now, but the speed of our deck is the best weapon. we only need 1 GY hate to tempo out them and give us that extra 1-2 turn to kill them.
PS, GY hate doesn't shrink down Crackling Drake :'(
I know we sometimes play ensnaring bridge so three CMC isn’t off the table as far as what we can cast and a 3/3 trample haste that gives me hexproof on my turn and for the creature for 3 seems good in my books. Thoughts?
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Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
I say nay. I don't even like running bridge, honestly. Most good hands are two-land hands. If it just had hexproof, riot and trample, maaaaaybe. But let's be real, the most likely scenario is that you get one hit in, then it dies to removal next turn. You've spent three mana for a lightning bolt.
that being said, it is an interesting new mechanic, and a smaller creature with riot might be viable.
I know we sometimes play ensnaring bridge so three CMC isn’t off the table as far as what we can cast and a 3/3 trample haste that gives me hexproof on my turn and for the creature for 3 seems good in my books. Thoughts?
I dont think this card is very good. Not fast enough.. might see standard play.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any situation where I would want hexproof solely on my turn, and Burn doesn't want to pay 3 mana for a 3/3 Haste Trample or 4/4 Trample. What situations do you envision this card being necessary for Burn?
As far as a small creature with riot that might make it into Burn, that thought crossed my mind but I doubt it. Imagine they print a 1 mana creature with Riot. It won't be a 2/2 with Riot without having a downside, I doubt it would even be a 2/1, so you're probably looking at a 1/1. If you choose the haste mode, you have a Raging Goblin. If you don't, you have non-legendary Zurgo Bellstriker (sort of). Maybe such a card could be playable if there's more text on it than "R: Riot, 1/1", but I kind of think there's not much room for a cheap Riot creature that would make it into Burn.
My line of reasoning behind why I suggested it was that a lot of the time a control deck will get rid of our creatures at our end step. Removing our creatures on their turn or having some affect of them returning a permanent on there turn would cost them the tempo. Sure, the creature dies to lightning bolt but it’s a big difference if they do it on our turn or on their turn.
I always figured we would go the haste route as anything without that is not conducive to our game plan.
When looking at it originally I also figured that it would be too expensive and not fast enough but those of you here I’m much more knowledgable on the deck which is why I presented it to you all.
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Modern - Pyro Prison
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any situation where I would want hexproof solely on my turn, and Burn doesn't want to pay 3 mana for a 3/3 Haste Trample or 4/4 Trample. What situations do you envision this card being necessary for Burn?
As far as a small creature with riot that might make it into Burn, that thought crossed my mind but I doubt it. Imagine they print a 1 mana creature with Riot. It won't be a 2/2 with Riot without having a downside, I doubt it would even be a 2/1, so you're probably looking at a 1/1. If you choose the haste mode, you have a Raging Goblin. If you don't, you have non-legendary Zurgo Bellstriker (sort of). Maybe such a card could be playable if there's more text on it than "R: Riot, 1/1", but I kind of think there's not much room for a cheap Riot creature that would make it into Burn.
I'm more hoping for something like a creature for RG that is a 3/1 with riot. Maybe a 2/1 that you can sac to deal damage like mogg fanatic or something. Gruul cards are pretty aggressive but with a slightly higher curve than the Boros, so I fully expect some one and two mana creatures to appear.
Sup burnbros. Haven't played in a couple months. I'd like to report that I've had great success in the past using Spike Jester in the sideboard. He's great against decks lacking creatures and/or removal like Amulet, Tron and Scapeshift. He can also put control players in a tight spot.
Given that I run 3 Jesters in the side, could 1-2 Chance for Glory be a viable sideboard option? I also run 2 Lavamans main. I'd probably use it in creature-heavy matchups.
Deafening Clarion is also a "no". 3 mana board wipes aren't worth it. The lifelink part is basically flavor text and anger of the gods is better, though still not worth playing.
3 mana, gain 2 per turn sounds pretty terrible. At best it's a sideboard graveyard hate card, and it's pretty terrible in that role, too.
It doesn't fit into a BW Taxes list, which is exiling stuff from your hand (Tidehollow Sculler/Thought-Knot Seer) and blinking stuff (Eldrazi Displacer/Flickerwisp). Wasteland Strangler can move stuff from your exile to your grave, but they aren't interested in a 3CMC graveyard->exile grind planeswalker. The minus to exile on it is barely relevant. Sure, it kills Aether Vial and Death's Shadow and Burn creatures, but other than that it's a 3 mana answer to a Noble Hierarch.
It's unlikely that Kaya will matter at all. Kambal, Consul of Allocation is much better at the anti-Burn roll in BW for 3 mana, and being bad graveyard hate in addition to Burn hate doesn't make Kaya better than Kambal.
That's a good point. I don't play Rift Bolt because I believe the card is too slow. I'll check out Light up the stage, I just not sure where to fit the card.
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The Red Phoenix deck makes use of quite a few cards that Burn or Red Reck Wins also uses. I found that the Mono Red version of Phoenix plays, different then the Blue/Red.
Having 4 swift spear, 4 lightning bolt, and 4 lava pike , starts to sound like the beginning of a Red Deck Wins list..
You are correct it does feel a bit combo like, but prowess and burn spells are there too. So where does this deck fit ?
Jund and Jeskai use Lightning Bolt and sometimes win with "bolt you". They aren't Burn decks.
The Phoenix deck shares some cards with Burn, but the game plan is decidedly different. You'd never play Faithless Looting or Tormenting Voice in Burn, and Manamorphose doesn't have a place in Burn either despite the fact that a bunch of content writers and pros tried to push it as something almost every deck should play. I think it's a lot closer to being a red combo deck than a red aggro deck (which is what rdw is).
What I do know is that the Phoenix deck isn't Burn and thus isn't the topic of this thread.
Having 4 lightning bolt or lightning helix, and occasionally bolting someone for a win is different then having 17-20 sources of "burn damage"
4x Lightning Bolt, 4x Lava Spike, 4x Fiery Temper, 2x gut shot, potential 2 from a single flame jab or up to 16 damage from 2 risk factors if they take it.
That is a burn package win condition.
I would like to point out once again that the Phoenix deck is not the subject of this thread and that discussion of it doesn't really have a place here (I've seen mods have crack down on "off topic discussions" in the past).
I do think I'm going to up my gy hate count to five or six.
(3 RIP and 1 Relic of progenitus) No reason why 3-1, I could also go 4 RIP... the important here is the 4 GY slots.
I think that going to 6 GY hate slots is too much. I think that 4 slots is perfect.
What do you sideboard out ? What happens if you draw 2-3 cards of GY hate .... those will be dead cards.
Yes there are a lot more decks using GY right now, but the speed of our deck is the best weapon. we only need 1 GY hate to tempo out them and give us that extra 1-2 turn to kill them.
PS, GY hate doesn't shrink down Crackling Drake :'(
https://external-preview.redd.it/6QCXtsCD6zh-B1bQcsCx51vrtG0L1LvUFrx7hRQF45A.png?auto=webp&s=85cab06118dfa59cc5f8245369b250c9edc3bbb3
I know we sometimes play ensnaring bridge so three CMC isn’t off the table as far as what we can cast and a 3/3 trample haste that gives me hexproof on my turn and for the creature for 3 seems good in my books. Thoughts?
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
that being said, it is an interesting new mechanic, and a smaller creature with riot might be viable.
I dont think this card is very good. Not fast enough.. might see standard play.
As far as a small creature with riot that might make it into Burn, that thought crossed my mind but I doubt it. Imagine they print a 1 mana creature with Riot. It won't be a 2/2 with Riot without having a downside, I doubt it would even be a 2/1, so you're probably looking at a 1/1. If you choose the haste mode, you have a Raging Goblin. If you don't, you have non-legendary Zurgo Bellstriker (sort of). Maybe such a card could be playable if there's more text on it than "R: Riot, 1/1", but I kind of think there's not much room for a cheap Riot creature that would make it into Burn.
I always figured we would go the haste route as anything without that is not conducive to our game plan.
When looking at it originally I also figured that it would be too expensive and not fast enough but those of you here I’m much more knowledgable on the deck which is why I presented it to you all.
Modern - GW Tron
Modern - Mono G Tron
Modern - RWg Burn
Commander - Yisan, The Wanderer Bard cEDH build
Commander - Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Budget/Casual list - complete
Commander - Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis - $35 Budget upgrade
Commander - Edgar Markov - $150 upgrade
I'm more hoping for something like a creature for RG that is a 3/1 with riot. Maybe a 2/1 that you can sac to deal damage like mogg fanatic or something. Gruul cards are pretty aggressive but with a slightly higher curve than the Boros, so I fully expect some one and two mana creatures to appear.
Given that I run 3 Jesters in the side, could 1-2 Chance for Glory be a viable sideboard option? I also run 2 Lavamans main. I'd probably use it in creature-heavy matchups.
It doesn't fit into a BW Taxes list, which is exiling stuff from your hand (Tidehollow Sculler/Thought-Knot Seer) and blinking stuff (Eldrazi Displacer/Flickerwisp). Wasteland Strangler can move stuff from your exile to your grave, but they aren't interested in a 3CMC graveyard->exile grind planeswalker. The minus to exile on it is barely relevant. Sure, it kills Aether Vial and Death's Shadow and Burn creatures, but other than that it's a 3 mana answer to a Noble Hierarch.
It's unlikely that Kaya will matter at all. Kambal, Consul of Allocation is much better at the anti-Burn roll in BW for 3 mana, and being bad graveyard hate in addition to Burn hate doesn't make Kaya better than Kambal.
That's a good point. I don't play Rift Bolt because I believe the card is too slow. I'll check out Light up the stage, I just not sure where to fit the card.