Looks like we have our answer on Jump start. Here's the jump start burn spell (unless something better comes along):
Direct Current: 1RR, Sorcery, 2 damage to any target.
3 mana is too expensive.
Yep, the second I saw it, I had to chuckle out loud. Nowhere near what we were hoping for. Ah, well, we have a tight 60 anyways.
Can't expect too much push from a common. Here's hoping they throw us a bone (even if it's a sorry excuse for a bone that won't make the cut, but we can at least debate over) at a higher rarity.
Is chained to the rocks the new hotness now? Seen some lists with it.
Chained to the Rocks is an answer for decks with turn 1 mana dorks. Humans is hella popular at the moment, and it's useless to Path to Exile a dork since op gets to replace the creature with a land anyway. I think it's a meta call. It really depends on how many decks you're facing that run Birds of Paradise and/or Noble Hierarch.
Is chained to the rocks the new hotness now? Seen some lists with it.
If you go to the 2017 section under Articles on the first page of the primer, you'll find 2 of them about CttR by Mike Flores. I've listened to a lot of Top Level Podcast over the last year, and I believe that Mike is still on Chained to the Rocks over Path, but I'm no certain. Burn comes up from time to time on that podcast.
Assassin's Trophy makes me want to try Jund Burn so badly. This is the closest analogue we've gotten to Path in forever. Dodges pro red, instant speed. And it hits permanents. Goodbye Leyline, Gideon of the Trials, and Chalice on 1. It costs two, but I really think it's gonna be worth it.
Assassin's Trophy makes me want to try Jund Burn so badly. This is the closest analogue we've gotten to Path in forever. Dodges pro red, instant speed. And it hits permanents. Goodbye Leyline, Gideon of the Trials, and Chalice on 1. It costs two, but I really think it's gonna be worth it.
That thought has crossed my mind too. It's a true Path replacement that does even more. You'd likely be splashing green solely for it and skip out on DRev, honestly, though you could play AC main. It could open up sideboard spots by replacing spare removal and whatever you have for artifacts or enchantments (guess you didn't have enchantment hate before in RB, though).
Also, here's hoping Jund sees an uptick because of this card. Jund is a fine matchup for us, and maybe it can push out some other stuff that isn't.
However I like your idea of Jund Burn with AC main and Assassin's trophy (AT) side. How many copies would you want to see elcon ? 3 copies like for PoE ? Or 4 copies like for Revelry ?
At going Jund, what type of sideboard would you want to see ? What card we don't think that may become playable at Jund colors ?
Not at all surprised that it's pre-ordering high. Jund and Abzan will want it in Modern. It could also see play in Legacy BGx decks. Assassin's Trophy looks like a very pushed card for non-rotating formats. I would imagine that you'd just play 4 because it's so versatile, though I could see playing fewer than 4 and using Smash/DRev or Searing Blood as more specific options.
I beat RG valakut, Storm, lost to humans, beat BG Infect, Storm, RG Valakut, UW Control and then lost to Bant Combos (it had both the knight/retreat and druid/vizier combo). The humans match was super close, but I drew both bridges game 3 and couldn't empty my hand and ended losing exactly to a freebooter. I'm surprised I took a game against the bant deck, it felt horrible. Overall, I had some good match-ups and the deck performed very well all day. I will say had those bridges been path to exiles, I probably win the match against humans, but I obviously couldn't have them with a UW teammate.
Side note, his match-up lottery was the worst. Tron x3, Green Devotion, Storm x2 and Humans x2 (not in that order, but still). He got rolled all day, felt kinda bad for him.
EDH is like French fries: some people like waffle cut, crinkle cut, or plain old straight cut, and while there's slight flavor difference and personal preference, at the end of the day they're still fries.
I know the single basic Swamp might be controversial, but at this point I have twelve maindeck sources of Burn that require black and only four maindeck sources that require exactly two red. In addition, much of the land hate in Modern lets me search for a basic and put it into play. This prevents me from being shut off of black and also essentially negates Blood Moon for me. I do believe it's worth testing specifically for this list.
Been getting my ass handed to me by humans lately. Any advice for that matchup beyond hoping they mull to five?
Path, Searing Blood, Grim Lavamancer. If you're seeing it a lot, you might consider Bridge.
Yeah I mean I'm packing four blaze main, one grim main, two path side, two blood side. Figure nine cards would be enough, but now I think I need to up my path count to three.
I know the single basic Swamp might be controversial, but at this point I have twelve maindeck sources of Burn that require black and only four maindeck sources that require exactly two red. In addition, much of the land hate in Modern lets me search for a basic and put it into play. This prevents me from being shut off of black and also essentially negates Blood Moon for me. I do believe it's worth testing specifically for this list.
I did test a list with the twelve black card you're running with no swamp and I did feel like a swamp could be something I'd want, but in the end you really do need red more. The last thing you want if you're stuck at one land is to be stuck on a nonred one. I'd say up the blood crypt + Fetch ratio and/or start running blackcleave cliffs or Sulfurous springs instead.
SO. As a big fan of Rakdos/FakeJund burn, I do really think Assassin's trophy has a valuable place in our sideboard. As a four-of it allows ut to run fewer (if any at all) of the "necessary" sideboards cards like Destructive revelry while filling the role of Path to exile (Without exiling), something the closest we had until now was Fatal Push and go for the Throat. I mean, that's CRAZY powerful and running it take the place of so many card we'd run. The only downside I can see is that GB ask a lot of our manabase has we still want every source of mana to still be able to produce R. dropping this turn 2 means fetching two shocklands, getting lucky with the fastlands or running tri-color/rainbow lands like mana confluence or gemstone mine.
Could someone renew the invite for the discord please?
Also, since we're at the point where many people are having success with Rakdos Burn, isn't it time that the deck deserves its own primer? I think it would be more convenient for everyone at this point so we don't have to scroll through posts looking for messages concerning only RW burn or Rakdos burn.
I also see that sideboards are cutting Kor Firewalker altogether. Is this a decision that everyone can stand by?
I didn't even know there was a discord, so I can't help with an invite for it.
I don't know if RB merits its own thread. I think it's fine having it at part of the discussion here though.
I do not think that Firewalker should be part of Burn sideboards in big tournaments unless Burn is a large part of the meta. It's just too narrow of a card to justify it in my opinion.
Yeah that's what I thought about Firewalker too.
There's also this idea I had that could possibly help all Burn players. Basically every week on the primer we have a matchup spotlight (for example, Burn vs Humans). We gather as many resources as we can to find out how to best beat the deck. Someone will go to their primer and ask some questions, while the rest of us give feedback on how matches went, what lines worked, which lines didn't, which cards to play around, and how to sideboard. By the end of the week, we all have a great understanding of how to play against the deck, and this valuable information is put into the matchup guide on the first page of the primer.
These would be the questions we have to answer:
-What cards to look for in the mulligan stage
-Which creatures need to be killed vs which ones can be ignored
-When to drop Eidolon of the Great Revel (many people have a lot of trouble with this one).
-Which Burn spells to lead with (saving Skullcrack against lifegain vs saving Lightning Helix to kill a creature)
-Which cards to play around (playing around everything is just unrealistic)
-Tricky plays/interactions most people don't know about
-Sideboarding guide
By taking this approach rather than what we've been doing, we can focus everyone's skills and knowledge to have a more complete understanding of the matchup. When we feel like the information is outdated, we revisit the matchup.
Every week (or 2 weeks), there could be a vote as to which deck we want to learn how to counter.
I know the single basic Swamp might be controversial, but at this point I have twelve maindeck sources of Burn that require black and only four maindeck sources that require exactly two red. In addition, much of the land hate in Modern lets me search for a basic and put it into play. This prevents me from being shut off of black and also essentially negates Blood Moon for me. I do believe it's worth testing specifically for this list.
I did test a list with the twelve black card you're running with no swamp and I did feel like a swamp could be something I'd want, but in the end you really do need red more. The last thing you want if you're stuck at one land is to be stuck on a nonred one. I'd say up the blood crypt + Fetch ratio and/or start running blackcleave cliffs or Sulfurous springs instead.
I definitely hear what you're saying about needing red more, and I agree. I wasn't running the swamp to get more black sources, I was running it as a way to fight Field of Ruin/Blood Moon/Assassin's Trophy. I believe land destruction to be one of the seven weaknesses a burn deck has, and as painful as getting stuck on a single swamp would be, I think it would also be pretty rare, and shore up one of the easiest ways to beat us. Having said that, even if that chance is rare, it DOES exist. I'm not sure what the correct call is quite yet.
Before Ixalan it was more clear, because there just wasn't as much efficient nonbasic hate in the format. You had Ghost Quarter, but then you were down on tempo. You had Blood Moon, but most decks would screw themselves just as much by running it. As such, there was very little risk not to make every land source tap for red. When Field of Ruin came along, I think it was the first relatively painless maindeck nonbasic hate card the format got. Now, we have Assassin's Trophy that will qualify as maindeck nonbasic land hate as well. I'm not sure whether it's riskier to chance getting stuck on one black, or to chance having all your black sources get blown up, now that the cards exist to do it.
So if we follow through with this matchup analysis every week, can we all agree that we should start with humans first? It seems to me like that's a matchup that's pretty close to even, and we should know how to swing it in our favor. I'll get in contact with the humans primer tomorrow for some information exchange unless other people would rather review a different matchup.
Yeah that's what I thought about Firewalker too.
There's also this idea I had that could possibly help all Burn players. Basically every week on the primer we have a matchup spotlight (for example, Burn vs Humans). We gather as many resources as we can to find out how to best beat the deck. Someone will go to their primer and ask some questions, while the rest of us give feedback on how matches went, what lines worked, which lines didn't, which cards to play around, and how to sideboard. By the end of the week, we all have a great understanding of how to play against the deck, and this valuable information is put into the matchup guide on the first page of the primer.
These would be the questions we have to answer:
-What cards to look for in the mulligan stage
-Which creatures need to be killed vs which ones can be ignored
-When to drop Eidolon of the Great Revel (many people have a lot of trouble with this one).
-Which Burn spells to lead with (saving Skullcrack against lifegain vs saving Lightning Helix to kill a creature)
-Which cards to play around (playing around everything is just unrealistic)
-Tricky plays/interactions most people don't know about
-Sideboarding guide
By taking this approach rather than what we've been doing, we can focus everyone's skills and knowledge to have a more complete understanding of the matchup. When we feel like the information is outdated, we revisit the matchup.
Every week (or 2 weeks), there could be a vote as to which deck we want to learn how to counter.
Phenomenal ideas. I suppose the first one to start with is Humans (since it was just recently mentioned by BlueTronFTW). I think a two week time scale would be reasonable for this. I am able to create polls that stay affixed to the top of this thread, and that can serve as a notice to people about this and as a poll for the next iteration. Some of those questions can be dug out of the other primer threads just by searching them, since they've all probably been asked before. I will do that, and I can take charge of engaging the other primers by asking them questions. I'll put something together this evening.
Can't expect too much push from a common. Here's hoping they throw us a bone (even if it's a sorry excuse for a bone that won't make the cut, but we can at least debate over) at a higher rarity.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Chained to the Rocks is an answer for decks with turn 1 mana dorks. Humans is hella popular at the moment, and it's useless to Path to Exile a dork since op gets to replace the creature with a land anyway. I think it's a meta call. It really depends on how many decks you're facing that run Birds of Paradise and/or Noble Hierarch.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
If you go to the 2017 section under Articles on the first page of the primer, you'll find 2 of them about CttR by Mike Flores. I've listened to a lot of Top Level Podcast over the last year, and I believe that Mike is still on Chained to the Rocks over Path, but I'm no certain. Burn comes up from time to time on that podcast.
That thought has crossed my mind too. It's a true Path replacement that does even more. You'd likely be splashing green solely for it and skip out on DRev, honestly, though you could play AC main. It could open up sideboard spots by replacing spare removal and whatever you have for artifacts or enchantments (guess you didn't have enchantment hate before in RB, though).
Also, here's hoping Jund sees an uptick because of this card. Jund is a fine matchup for us, and maybe it can push out some other stuff that isn't.
Path, Searing Blood, Grim Lavamancer. If you're seeing it a lot, you might consider Bridge.
Not at all surprised that it's pre-ordering high. Jund and Abzan will want it in Modern. It could also see play in Legacy BGx decks. Assassin's Trophy looks like a very pushed card for non-rotating formats. I would imagine that you'd just play 4 because it's so versatile, though I could see playing fewer than 4 and using Smash/DRev or Searing Blood as more specific options.
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Boros Charm
4x Lightning Helix
4x Searing Blaze
3x Skullcrack
1x Stomping Ground
3x Inspiring Vantage
3x Mountain
4x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Deflecting Palm
4x Destructive Revelry
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Searing Blood
1x Skullcrack
I beat RG valakut, Storm, lost to humans, beat BG Infect, Storm, RG Valakut, UW Control and then lost to Bant Combos (it had both the knight/retreat and druid/vizier combo). The humans match was super close, but I drew both bridges game 3 and couldn't empty my hand and ended losing exactly to a freebooter. I'm surprised I took a game against the bant deck, it felt horrible. Overall, I had some good match-ups and the deck performed very well all day. I will say had those bridges been path to exiles, I probably win the match against humans, but I obviously couldn't have them with a UW teammate.
Side note, his match-up lottery was the worst. Tron x3, Green Devotion, Storm x2 and Humans x2 (not in that order, but still). He got rolled all day, felt kinda bad for him.
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Grim Lavamancer
Burn
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Bump in the Night
4x Gonti's Machinations
3x Shard Volley
4x Sovereign's Bite
12x Fetches
3x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Assassin's Trophy
4x Atarka's Command
4x Searing Blaze
3x Leyline of the Void (or maybe some other graveyard hate, I always just relied on RIP and need to research this more)
I know the single basic Swamp might be controversial, but at this point I have twelve maindeck sources of Burn that require black and only four maindeck sources that require exactly two red. In addition, much of the land hate in Modern lets me search for a basic and put it into play. This prevents me from being shut off of black and also essentially negates Blood Moon for me. I do believe it's worth testing specifically for this list.
Yeah I mean I'm packing four blaze main, one grim main, two path side, two blood side. Figure nine cards would be enough, but now I think I need to up my path count to three.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Still, quick sideboard draft time!
4x assassin's trophy
3x Atarka's command
2x Destructive Revelry
1x Searing Blood
1x Go for the Throat
1x Contaminated Ground
2x Rakdos Charm
1x Grafdigger's cage
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Also, since we're at the point where many people are having success with Rakdos Burn, isn't it time that the deck deserves its own primer? I think it would be more convenient for everyone at this point so we don't have to scroll through posts looking for messages concerning only RW burn or Rakdos burn.
I also see that sideboards are cutting Kor Firewalker altogether. Is this a decision that everyone can stand by?
I don't know if RB merits its own thread. I think it's fine having it at part of the discussion here though.
I do not think that Firewalker should be part of Burn sideboards in big tournaments unless Burn is a large part of the meta. It's just too narrow of a card to justify it in my opinion.
Edit: some words. Thanks, autocorrect.
There's also this idea I had that could possibly help all Burn players. Basically every week on the primer we have a matchup spotlight (for example, Burn vs Humans). We gather as many resources as we can to find out how to best beat the deck. Someone will go to their primer and ask some questions, while the rest of us give feedback on how matches went, what lines worked, which lines didn't, which cards to play around, and how to sideboard. By the end of the week, we all have a great understanding of how to play against the deck, and this valuable information is put into the matchup guide on the first page of the primer.
These would be the questions we have to answer:
-What cards to look for in the mulligan stage
-Which creatures need to be killed vs which ones can be ignored
-When to drop Eidolon of the Great Revel (many people have a lot of trouble with this one).
-Which Burn spells to lead with (saving Skullcrack against lifegain vs saving Lightning Helix to kill a creature)
-Which cards to play around (playing around everything is just unrealistic)
-Tricky plays/interactions most people don't know about
-Sideboarding guide
By taking this approach rather than what we've been doing, we can focus everyone's skills and knowledge to have a more complete understanding of the matchup. When we feel like the information is outdated, we revisit the matchup.
Every week (or 2 weeks), there could be a vote as to which deck we want to learn how to counter.
I definitely hear what you're saying about needing red more, and I agree. I wasn't running the swamp to get more black sources, I was running it as a way to fight Field of Ruin/Blood Moon/Assassin's Trophy. I believe land destruction to be one of the seven weaknesses a burn deck has, and as painful as getting stuck on a single swamp would be, I think it would also be pretty rare, and shore up one of the easiest ways to beat us. Having said that, even if that chance is rare, it DOES exist. I'm not sure what the correct call is quite yet.
Before Ixalan it was more clear, because there just wasn't as much efficient nonbasic hate in the format. You had Ghost Quarter, but then you were down on tempo. You had Blood Moon, but most decks would screw themselves just as much by running it. As such, there was very little risk not to make every land source tap for red. When Field of Ruin came along, I think it was the first relatively painless maindeck nonbasic hate card the format got. Now, we have Assassin's Trophy that will qualify as maindeck nonbasic land hate as well. I'm not sure whether it's riskier to chance getting stuck on one black, or to chance having all your black sources get blown up, now that the cards exist to do it.
Hey Elcon, is there a chance we could see Sovereign's Bite added to the primer for black options?
Phenomenal ideas. I suppose the first one to start with is Humans (since it was just recently mentioned by BlueTronFTW). I think a two week time scale would be reasonable for this. I am able to create polls that stay affixed to the top of this thread, and that can serve as a notice to people about this and as a poll for the next iteration. Some of those questions can be dug out of the other primer threads just by searching them, since they've all probably been asked before. I will do that, and I can take charge of engaging the other primers by asking them questions. I'll put something together this evening.
So let it be written, so let it be done.