Hey all, I like the updated Primer. Some of the data before was getting a bit outdated.
I am hoping to start a discussion on ensnaring bridge:
1) Worth putting in SB?
2) If so, how many copies? (typically I hear 2, as noted in the SB section of the primer)
I have debated this for some time. I went 6-3 on day 1 of the Louisville open last weekend, and I think it would've definitely been helpful against some of my match-ups. What are your thoughts?
I think if you're gonna be running Bridge, you need to see it early enough for it to come down before you're dead, and you really don't wanna see more than one. I would say three is the right number. This could go down if you're supplanting it with other answers to large creatures.
I don't think it's a bad card for the sideboard. I stick to Path because I don't want any cards that cost three, but that's more of a personal preference. If you need a pseudo board wipe against midrange decks, you could do far worse.
I'm going to try out the light green splash for Drev. The plan is to board out Boros Charm for Drevs, so we won't need to fetch for 3 colours. Still not sure about the Collective Brutality for the mirror and AdNaus, it seems a stretch to find WW for Firewalker with this manabase. Collective acts as an answer to firewalker and can mitigate flood and at least plays on par with the life drain with potential for more. Other ideas are welcome, I played rest for the weary at one point to fine success, but answering KF seems really important in the mirror. Thoughts? The cracks are just generic upgrades of either blaze or boros charm against decks with lifegain and/or few to zero creatures.
I like that you're never playing more than three colors at once, by switching the Charms for the Revelries. I might recommend dropping a basic Mountain for either a second Foundry or another fetch, depending on the level of land destruction in your meta. Really you want about fifteen sources for each color in your deck--I would try to hit that.
@elconquistador1985 great primer! Lots of great information, but two things
1) I think that the SB section promotes oversideboarding in some matchups. I can't speak about all of them, but vs knightfall (which I've played a ton) you should never bring cage in. it doesn't hit enough cards, any burn spell should be better than it.
2) Have you thought about running the numbers on vexing devil? I like how your analysis reveals the common conception about creature quality (goblin guide is the best one, then eidolon and so on) and it would be great to see where vexing devil falls.
On the play, I cut the 4 Searing Blaze and bring in 2 Path and 2 Destructive Revelry (as many Scapeshift players in my LGS bring in Chalice of the Void and Courser of Kruphix, and have mainboard Prismatic Omen).
On the draw, I cut the 4 Searing Blaze, 2 Eidolons and a Mountain to bring in 3 Path, 2 Palm and 2 Revelry.
@elconquistador1985 great primer! Lots of great information, but two things
1) I think that the SB section promotes oversideboarding in some matchups. I can't speak about all of them, but vs knightfall (which I've played a ton) you should never bring cage in. it doesn't hit enough cards, any burn spell should be better than it.
2) Have you thought about running the numbers on vexing devil? I like how your analysis reveals the common conception about creature quality (goblin guide is the best one, then eidolon and so on) and it would be great to see where vexing devil falls.
1: That might be true. I think I kind of envisioned it as "things to consider when building a sideboard" rather than "things to sideboard", since there's no actual 15 card sideboard that section is going off of. I'll revisit that.
2: T1 Devil is pretty straight forward, they take 4 if they can't deal with it and they kill it if they can, so it becomes a matter of estimating how many outs they have.
On the play: They have 7 cards in hand and will make a decision based on what they hold right now. For a 7 card hand with 4 outs in the deck to kill it at 1 mana, there's a 60% chance they can't kill it and Devil is worth 0.6 x 4 = 2.4 damage.
On the draw: They'll have seen 7 cards by the time you play it and will make a decision based on those 7, but 2cmc answers are opened up. Say this becomes 6 outs: 45% chance it could live, 0.45 x 4 = 1.8. If it's 8 outs: 35% chance it could live, 0.35 x 4 = 1.4.
As turns go on, they pick up more outs that either kill it or stonewall it and it's worth less the later you play it.
@elconquistador1985 great primer! Lots of great information, but two things
1) I think that the SB section promotes oversideboarding in some matchups. I can't speak about all of them, but vs knightfall (which I've played a ton) you should never bring cage in. it doesn't hit enough cards, any burn spell should be better than it.
2) Have you thought about running the numbers on vexing devil? I like how your analysis reveals the common conception about creature quality (goblin guide is the best one, then eidolon and so on) and it would be great to see where vexing devil falls.
1: That might be true. I think I kind of envisioned it as "things to consider when building a sideboard" rather than "things to sideboard", since there's no actual 15 card sideboard that section is going off of. I'll revisit that.
What should we bring against Knightfall then? RIP, Paths and Palms (Palms only if we are on the draw)?
Has anyone considered 4 color? I do see the advantages of running black, and I don't want to drop green or white. Helix, B-Charm, and Atarka's Command are all cards I really have come to love
i put my list up about 1 or 2 pgs ago and i run 4 color. my main deck is rakdos burn. i side in deflecting palm or drev as needed and only g2 or 3 do i need to ever fetch for more just black mana. i also run City of brass which in g2 or 3 can prevent me from fetching shocks at all.
I'm going to try out the light green splash for Drev. The plan is to board out Boros Charm for Drevs, so we won't need to fetch for 3 colours. Still not sure about the Collective Brutality for the mirror and AdNaus, it seems a stretch to find WW for Firewalker with this manabase. Collective acts as an answer to firewalker and can mitigate flood and at least plays on par with the life drain with potential for more. Other ideas are welcome, I played rest for the weary at one point to fine success, but answering KF seems really important in the mirror. Thoughts? The cracks are just generic upgrades of either blaze or boros charm against decks with lifegain and/or few to zero creatures.
What should we bring against Knightfall then? RIP, Paths and Palms (Palms only if we are on the draw)?
Good knightfall players will side out the combo (too slow and painful), so you shouldn't worry about that. Knightfall's manabase is super painful (fetch+shocking is almost always mandatory, that + canopy) so burning face is the best plan. I would side a few paths (for knight and ooze), maybe one or two palms but definitely stay away from RIP/cage effects, they do nothing, a lava spike is better.
They might get rid of Retreat, but they're still going to have a 5/5 or 6/6 Knight and they're going to milk Ooze for all they can (and they can milk it a lot because it's a CoCo deck loaded with creatures).
So against UWx control, how do you know when your supposed to switch roles from burn-your-face aggro, to sandbagging burn until your opponent gives you a certain window?
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Modern: UWR Control
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Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
So against UWx control, how do you know when your supposed to switch roles from burn-your-face aggro, to sandbagging burn until your opponent gives you a certain window?
The gist of it is that they can't counter anything when they don't have any untapped lands. You have to rely on knowing their deck and knowing what they can cast at any given time. You have to know what CMC counters they play and adjust accordingly. If they have 1 mana up, they could have a Dispel or Spell Snare, so any 1cmc spells are castable (Dispel is usually a sideboard card). You don't want to be "burn-your-face" aggro at all, because if you're just tapping mountains and casting bolts, they'll happily counter them, untap, and wait for you to do it again. Lead with creatures and ride them as long as you can and then cast spells when you have an opening to do so. Cast spells that you're ok with them countering so you can try to bait counters and then cast spells you don't want countered. Perhaps try a 2CMC spell on their T2 hoping they'll counter it and then you can drop Eidolon.
When they have a lot of lands, you won't be able to bottleneck their mana anymore and will instead need to bottleneck their hand. You do that by casting a lot of spells at once while they aren't able to draw more cards to replenish their hand. I sandbag at the end so that I can overwhelm the cards they have in hand. We play more burn spells than they play counters.
This Patrick Sullivan article is a must read, and explains the strategy better than I have.
So against UWx control, how do you know when your supposed to switch roles from burn-your-face aggro, to sandbagging burn until your opponent gives you a certain window?
Typically on T4+ since this is when Snap+Counter and Cryptic Command turns on.
The MU is much harder now with the new walkers rule...
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It's passable but it doesn't deal with everything you might want to deal with. It won't touch Delve creatures. If you aren't in white, there aren't many other options though.
If you're not playing white, I might even consider Terminate. It's one more mana, but it hits most things you want to be hitting.
Having said that, I would highly advocate playing white and just running Path. I feel like playing Burn without white is like playing Infect without blue.
It's passable but it doesn't deal with everything you might want to deal with. It won't touch Delve creatures. If you aren't in white, there aren't many other options though.
That's what I was thinking. Talking about Delve, maybe Murderous cut could work? I'd have to reconsider Grim lavamancer if I am to go this route. Thanks for the quick response.
I think if you're gonna be running Bridge, you need to see it early enough for it to come down before you're dead, and you really don't wanna see more than one. I would say three is the right number. This could go down if you're supplanting it with other answers to large creatures.
I don't think it's a bad card for the sideboard. I stick to Path because I don't want any cards that cost three, but that's more of a personal preference. If you need a pseudo board wipe against midrange decks, you could do far worse.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
I like that you're never playing more than three colors at once, by switching the Charms for the Revelries. I might recommend dropping a basic Mountain for either a second Foundry or another fetch, depending on the level of land destruction in your meta. Really you want about fifteen sources for each color in your deck--I would try to hit that.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
1) I think that the SB section promotes oversideboarding in some matchups. I can't speak about all of them, but vs knightfall (which I've played a ton) you should never bring cage in. it doesn't hit enough cards, any burn spell should be better than it.
2) Have you thought about running the numbers on vexing devil? I like how your analysis reveals the common conception about creature quality (goblin guide is the best one, then eidolon and so on) and it would be great to see where vexing devil falls.
L: Maverick
Also, I'd love to generate a regular in depth discussion about each matchup.
I'm running a pretty stock RWg list, the one with 4-ofs of everything, and 20 lands:
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skullcrack
4 Searing Blaze
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Path to Exile
1 Rest in Peace
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Shattering Spree
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
On the play, I cut the 4 Searing Blaze and bring in 2 Path and 2 Destructive Revelry (as many Scapeshift players in my LGS bring in Chalice of the Void and Courser of Kruphix, and have mainboard Prismatic Omen).
On the draw, I cut the 4 Searing Blaze, 2 Eidolons and a Mountain to bring in 3 Path, 2 Palm and 2 Revelry.
What do you guys think of this sideboard plan?
1: That might be true. I think I kind of envisioned it as "things to consider when building a sideboard" rather than "things to sideboard", since there's no actual 15 card sideboard that section is going off of. I'll revisit that.
2: T1 Devil is pretty straight forward, they take 4 if they can't deal with it and they kill it if they can, so it becomes a matter of estimating how many outs they have.
On the play: They have 7 cards in hand and will make a decision based on what they hold right now. For a 7 card hand with 4 outs in the deck to kill it at 1 mana, there's a 60% chance they can't kill it and Devil is worth 0.6 x 4 = 2.4 damage.
On the draw: They'll have seen 7 cards by the time you play it and will make a decision based on those 7, but 2cmc answers are opened up. Say this becomes 6 outs: 45% chance it could live, 0.45 x 4 = 1.8. If it's 8 outs: 35% chance it could live, 0.35 x 4 = 1.4.
As turns go on, they pick up more outs that either kill it or stonewall it and it's worth less the later you play it.
What should we bring against Knightfall then? RIP, Paths and Palms (Palms only if we are on the draw)?
i put my list up about 1 or 2 pgs ago and i run 4 color. my main deck is rakdos burn. i side in deflecting palm or drev as needed and only g2 or 3 do i need to ever fetch for more just black mana. i also run City of brass which in g2 or 3 can prevent me from fetching shocks at all.
heres my list btw...
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Mountain
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Vexing Devil
4x Rift Bolt
4x Bump in the Night
4x Lava Spike
4x Gonti's Machinations
3x Shard Volley
4x Skullcrack
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Atarka's Command
2x Deflecting Palm
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Path to Exile
2x Volcanic Fallout
3x Searing Blaze
Good knightfall players will side out the combo (too slow and painful), so you shouldn't worry about that. Knightfall's manabase is super painful (fetch+shocking is almost always mandatory, that + canopy) so burning face is the best plan. I would side a few paths (for knight and ooze), maybe one or two palms but definitely stay away from RIP/cage effects, they do nothing, a lava spike is better.
L: Maverick
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer
The gist of it is that they can't counter anything when they don't have any untapped lands. You have to rely on knowing their deck and knowing what they can cast at any given time. You have to know what CMC counters they play and adjust accordingly. If they have 1 mana up, they could have a Dispel or Spell Snare, so any 1cmc spells are castable (Dispel is usually a sideboard card). You don't want to be "burn-your-face" aggro at all, because if you're just tapping mountains and casting bolts, they'll happily counter them, untap, and wait for you to do it again. Lead with creatures and ride them as long as you can and then cast spells when you have an opening to do so. Cast spells that you're ok with them countering so you can try to bait counters and then cast spells you don't want countered. Perhaps try a 2CMC spell on their T2 hoping they'll counter it and then you can drop Eidolon.
When they have a lot of lands, you won't be able to bottleneck their mana anymore and will instead need to bottleneck their hand. You do that by casting a lot of spells at once while they aren't able to draw more cards to replenish their hand. I sandbag at the end so that I can overwhelm the cards they have in hand. We play more burn spells than they play counters.
This Patrick Sullivan article is a must read, and explains the strategy better than I have.
The MU is much harder now with the new walkers rule...
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
It's passable but it doesn't deal with everything you might want to deal with. It won't touch Delve creatures. If you aren't in white, there aren't many other options though.
Having said that, I would highly advocate playing white and just running Path. I feel like playing Burn without white is like playing Infect without blue.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)