Hey all, I've been taking a little break from playing Magic over the last weeks/months but watching the Grand Prix this weekend and seeing how open and wonderful Modern is right now, really want to made me play again so I'll be bringing my trusted RUG Eternal Command list to FNM this Friday.
Thanks for the link Raven!
Getting some content on EC is always nice, although I really don't think Quickling is what this deck wants (and his land base is terrible (5 lands that don't produce blue in a deck that usually wants 1UU on turn 3 and 1UUU on turn 4...))
Nice to hear that Spell Pierce is performing for you, I will probably try it out this Friday!
I'm pretty comfortable with the maindeck but I think the SB could be tweaked a little bit. With Gx Tron being a lot less popular, is a true land destruction spell (Stone Rain) still necessary? Or would another Spreading Seas just be better? (RG Valakut is decided by counterspells usually anyway). Do I really need another LD spell? Or is there some other stuff that's solid against Eldrazi Tron and also helps against other MUs?
With playing Spell Pierce main, are Dispel/Negate still both necessary in the board? Pierce should win counterwars against UWx control and counter Chords/Companies just as good as Dispel does. Maybe there's some grindy card I can play instead? Another Huntmaster?
So I saw some people playing Basilisk Collar in the side mainly against Eldrazi Tron in the RUG Delver thread. From what I read there it works pretty well (they have a hard time of getting rid of it while it's super hard to race it).
The card should also be solid against (Goyf with lifelink? Yes please!) and the synergies with Staticaster and Huntmaster are pretty sweet!
I'm not sure how good it will be against Death's Shadow, but that's certainly another MU where I would at least try it out against.
Opinions?
I think lavamancer is pretty underrated right now, as a lot of decks either play tons of small creatures (that he shoots down) or X/4s / X/5s, which he teams up with a bolt to kill.
I burnt out at GP Birmingham playing go-big combo decks and have decided to go back to my modern roots for a bit. Elves, eternal command. Turns and a bit of CoCo will be my decks of choice for a bit :). Can't promise I'll play E-Command every week but I'll be giving each deck proper attention over the coming season, and doing some good old fashioned tweaking as well. I do Thursday night modern every week so I'll check in afterwards and let you know how testing goes.
Didn't you post something like 'sticking to one deck now' in the GP thread a few days ago lol?
Anyway glad to have you back!
How's your current list looking like?
@Cody
I've been tinkering with Lavamancer a few times, helping to kill x/5 creatures looks pretty nice on paper but he's yet another card that taxes our graveyard, which is why I always ended up switching him out again.
As promised, here's my FNM report:
There's been more people than usually so we actually played 5 rounds instead of the usual 4.
Here's the list I ended up bringing:
Round 1: Lantern Control 2-1
G1: On the play keep an ok hand with cryptic, scooze, traverse, electrolyze and 3 lands, I get my scooze and cryptic stripped by discard and flood horribly. He assembles Bridge+Lantern+Codex Shredder and I concede to have enough time for 2 more games.
G2: Keep Vial, Goyf, Remand, E-Wit, Snap, 2 lands. Opponent strips my E-Wit but misses his 2nd land drop for a turn. I start beating down with Goyf, draw Ancient Grudge, which is surprisingly dead against his 2x Conjurer’s Bauble on the field. Clique adds more pressure and strips him off Bridge. He kills my Goyf but I Snap Remand his Collective Brutality to keep my Clique alive for another turn. And reduce his lifepoints bit by bit, hoping he doesn’t draw a bridge. With on one I cast Ancient Grudge on his Mox Opal during his upkeep to keep him off his third mana source (even if he sacs Bauble, Mox would get tapped. Opponent draws and shows me a Bridge…Game 3.
G3: Keep 3 lands, SV, EE, Bolt and Traverse. Explosives get thoughtseized away, play turn 2 Goyf. He pops a Nihil Spellbomb. I throw my Bolt at him to get more damage in with Goyf, which gets killed shortly after. Drop Huntmaster which gets killed by Collective Brutality but I can follow up with another Goyf (tutored by Traverse). He casts a Bridge but I Spell Pierce it and attack for lethal.
Round 2: UW Control 2-0
G1: On the draw I keep keep E-Wit, Scooze, Goyf, Bolt, 3 lands. Land my Goyf and start to chip damage. Play Scooze turn 4 probably running into Verdict. Correct. Rebuild my board with E-Wit into Scooze and start the grind. I manage to fight through small Gideon and Elspeth on the back of Bolts, E-Wits, Snaps and Cryptic (E-Wit getting back E-wit, dat value!), have to let him resolve a Revelation for 4. At the end he actually manages to cut off all my red sources but floods out (I saw his hand with Clique) and I manage to bring him down. What a game, wish I had better notes on it but I stopped taking them as soon as I realized that time will probably cause an issue here.
G2: I know I kept a nice hand with Vial, Scooze, Spell Pierce and I think a Snap. Vial is super valuable in the MU but seeing him mull to 5 and then snap keeping I decide to not play Vial turn 1 and keep the mana open for Pierce, he untaps and slams Rest in Piece, I fetch and say nope…felt pretty dang good haha (sidenote: usually not playing Vial on turn one is obviously wrong in probably 99% of the cases, it was really his reaction that made me decide not to and the fact that I could still play Vial on turn 2 with counter protection up. I’m actually still contemplating if it would have been the right choice on average, in this case it obviously was). After that he seemed out of action for a few turns and I can clique away his probably just drawn Verdict. He taps out for Elspeth in a last attempt a little later but that gets Snap Pierced and I attack for lethal next turn.
Round 3: RG Valakut 2-1
G1: The guy I play against is usually on RG Ponza so I’m happy to keep 2x Bolt, Remand, 2x Serum Vision and 2 lands on the draw. Scry Vial and a land to the top with SV since he leads with a forest but no dork. Just to realize he’s on Valakut instead next turn when he plays Farseek. Play the Vial, scry again but find nothing. I delay his Hour of Promise with Remand for a turn. And then concede to 2x active Valakuts with him still at 20 life.
G2: Mull to 6 and keep Bolt, 2x SV, Remand, and 2 lands. Scry Clique to top and find a Goyf with my turn 1 SV. From there it’s easy. Take away his Hour of promise with Clique. Remand his Titan and Snap Remand it again.
G3: Keep Spell Pierce, 2x SV, Snap and 3 lands. He drops Relic of Progenitus, I Pierce his Farseek and attack him in the air with Clique, which revealed me a hand full of pay off cards, but no ramp. Next turn he taps out to play Hour of Promise which I happily Snap Pierce (screw you Relic). Remand into Cryptic seals the deal.
Round 4: Dredge 2-0
G1: On the draw I keep 2x Remand, Cryptic and Familiar’s Ruse, hoping for a slow MU. I somehow thought I was on the play here, otherwise I would probably not have kept the hand. He plays Carthatic Reunion on turn 2 and dredges 4. Turn 3 Looting and I look at my hand and think at least cycle Remand, forcing him to use his Gemstone Mine a second time but putting another dredger+Bloodghast in the yard, which gets reanimated by a darkmore salvage hitting the battlefield and brings an Amalgam with it. Next turn another dredge, only finding a Narcomoeba. Since it’s too late to actually get the softlock going in time, the only way to win that game seems to try to colour screw him. I remand his LftL, casted of the last counter on Gemstone Mine and Vapor Snag his Amalgam. The plan works and he does not make another land drop for the turn. I play Goyf and start attacking, after dredging there is like 2 Amalgam and a Bloodghast in his grave but no more dredgers. He can’t get them to enter the field in time and when he finally does I can just tap them down with Cryptic and seal the deal.
Definitely got lucky here, but hey, always play to your outs!
G2: Keep a hand with Anger of the Gods, Snap, Surgical Extraction and 4 lands. Extract Conflagrate, Snap blocks a Bloodghast and extracts it too. Play Goyf turn 3 and Anger on turn 4 hitting 3 Amalgams and a Narcomoeba. From there it’s easy.
Round 5: RG Valakut 2-0
G1: Keep Vial, Goyf, Familiar’s Ruse, Cryptic and 3 lands on the play. He ramps up to 6 on turn 4, casts Pact and searches for Titan. I counter with Cryptic, which finds me an E-Wit for the softlock,giving me enough time to take him down with Goyf.
G2: Keep Goyf, Spell Pierce, Snap, Cryptic, Snap, 2 lands. Pierce Farseek, play Goyf, Snap Pierce Hour of Promise, Cryptic his Titan. Finish him off with Bolt+E-Wit.
I did it, 5-0! Awesome night with lots of tight games, only few misplays on my side and enough luck where it was needed to take it down.
Spell Pierce has been stellar! I'll probably cut my Snare for a second one.
What do you think about the Game 2 play against UW Control? I mean it obviously paid off this time, but on a more general take?
I'm also conflicted about Bolt and sideboarding. Do we keep it in for the reach against decks like RG Valakut? Keep in just 2 like I currently do? And against UW Control? I knew he played multiple walkers from Game 1, so I kept in 3 Bolts. What do you do if you don't see any walkers Game 1?
Thanks Raven!
Pierce is the real deal, I play 2x now and so far I am really happy with it!
I have actually managed to outgrind UW control (a buddy of mine plays it) multiple times. Traverse chains are real!
Valakut has been a very solid MU so far, establish a threat and just Remand, Snap, Cryptic them all day.
Regarding my comments on BUG...the deck plays a lot more on the midrange control spectrum than RUG does, which makes Vial's tempo abilities worse. Not playing targeted discard in a deck that also runs Goyf as follow up plays is a huge price to pay for the Vial+E-Wit+Cryptic package (running 4 Vials+5-6 Discard plays in one deck just doesn't work out). I think that price is too high and dropping the package for discard and some other interaction/haymakers is simply better. Maybe there is a good BUG is out there, last time I tried it was after Fatal Push was printed and for me it just didn't really work out.
On another note...what are your thoughts on Chameleon Colossus as SB hate against Grixis Death's Shadow? Once resolved they pretty much can't deal with it (besides the very rare Bolt/Snap/Bolt) it blocks their stuff all day and easily finishes them off once they hit 8 life or less (can only be blocked by Snap)? Seems also ok against other grindy MUs.
I would just like to have something in my board that helps me to increase the odds in the MU.
Supreme Will and Concdescend are indeed interesting choices. Let me know when you tested them to more extend. Mana base seems fine. Maybe switch a Watery Grave for the 2nd Breeding Pool? You'll rarely end up fetching for a second Grave, while Pool is more reasonable (getting GG for E-Wit or just more green for Scooze).
Can't really tell on the Tasigur, but between 4x Goyfs, 2x Cliques and Flayer you should have enough beaters to shave one if you want. Maybe add an additional removal spell that can deal with Delve creatures/Eldrazi instead? Murderous Cut?
Because it doesn't have Bolt, BUG is definitely worse at the tempo game than RUG. Which makes it less suitable to exploit the tempo abilities that Vial offers.
RUG usually uses the softlock to 'get there' (because the lock itself is darn fragile) and, again, RUG is better at getting there than BUG because of Bolt. It uses the lock to keep big opposing creatures at bay, something the deck usually struggles with. BUG struggles a lot less against opposing creatures, you got all the removal spells in the world. You're less likely to end up in situations where it's Cryptic lock or bust. That makes the whole lock less necessary.
In RUG, the other deckbuilding option you have for a tempo/midrange deck is mainly to build around Blood Moon, ditching the lock package. A very powerful card but with very high variance depending on your MU. I prefer the EC build for numerous reasons.
In BUG your other option is playing targeted discard, getting access to multiple manlands (especially Creeping Tar Pit), an overall better mana base and playing less counterspells. In my testing this option felt more powerful than the BUG EC builds I brewed up (there's a reason people are always complaining that we have Thoughtseize but no Counterspell in Modern).
I'm not saying that RUG is better than BUG, as far as I can tell that's meta and playstyle dependent. I'm saying it's a very common thing that you brew up something new, end up putting more and more powerful cards into it to make it better and don't realize that it ended up being a slightly worse version of something that already exists. (It happened to me. a lot. I spent a lot of time trying to make the Eternal Ruse version of this deck work (very similar to EC, but plays more Familiar's Ruse and Coiling Oracles instead of Goyfs...pretty darn bad)).
And that's my opinion on BUG EC vs. BUG Midrange.
You (or others) don't need to share it, but I wanted to arguments clear.
I agree, definitely appreciate the discussion and playstyle preferences are a valid point to play BUG.
Entrancing Melody sadly is not an instant. At instant I would have tried one in the main and one in the side (being able to keep counters up and steal manlands would give the card a huuuge boost). As a sorcery, I think it still deserves some testing in the side, but Goyf is pretty much at an all time low and Chameleon Colossus has been pretty good against Grixis Shadow, the MU where EM would likely come in most often.
The card I'm waiting for that also seems most likely to actually see print would be a solid one or two drop creature. Something that helps us draw through our deck faster (thereby helping to bridge the deckbuilding restrictions of Vial vs. Snapcaster Mage) but better than Coiling Oracle. For RUG a solid 2cmc creature with deathtouch seems like the closest thing we'll get to a killspell. A UG Baleful Strix without flying would be sweet sweet synergy in the deck. A blue one drop with a solid ETB could make running Familiar's Ruse a lot better. There's tons of possibilities if you ask me, but Wizards hasn't really shown much love for UG in Modern so far.
How are you guys approaching the UW Control MU? I tended to try to tempo them out but a timely Path or a resolved Gideon take away so much from our tempo game that I always ended up grinding them out, pick away at them with Snaps and E-Wits. So I started siding out my Goyfs and leaving in only value creatures and answers and so far that has worked out surprisingly well (been 5-0 against the deck since then). I don't know if it's because my opponents don't play the deck optimally (the guys at my LGS are solid players, but playing that deck optimally is hard) or if Vial actually just makes the MU that much better. They can't counter the value of Snaps/E-Wits while it allows us to not overextend into Verdict as much and it helps a lot in answering resolved planeswalkers.
What are your opinions/experiences against the deck?
Didn't you post something like 'sticking to one deck now' in the GP thread a few days ago lol?
Anyway glad to have you back!
I may have done yeah. I went through an emotional weekend at the GP and really enjoyed the experience (not my first GP but easily the most exhausting so far) but I definitely left feeling like Modern rewards the 'reps' and I'd be better off just jamming a deck over and over until I'm some kinda savant with it.
However, I've got three or so strong pet decks which I reckon I could do a good job with, as long as I stick to that small roster like glue and don't get distracted by the shiny new things haha :).
At the moment my lineup of decks-actually-in-boxes is:
Rug Omenshift
Eldrazi tron
Coco Vizier
Elves
Turns
Kci
Jund shadow
However I'm going to do the ol' switcheroo and put major focus on a single deck for a while, and gradually cycle through so I get proper time with each one. I'm not hitting up the protour any time soon, so I feel like I can afford to indulge my various pet decks without losing too much of an edge.
First focus deck will indeed be E-Command. It's been too long since I sleeved up my bolts and vials that I need to get it out of my system. Definitely still my favorite modern deck, maybe deck of all time.
So my slow-rotating focus is probably going to be:
Eternal command
Eldrazi tron
???
Profit
(look Ma, I did a meme)
My list is going to be pillaged from yours and my most recent RUG incarnation initially, and then I'll get 'brewy' and try bant with spell queller. My untested guess at the moment is that the deck still needs bolt. Let's see if my intuition is proven correct
See y'all soon for some discussion and game reports
After having had some suckess with GB rock I have been wanting to experiment with the deck. The deck I ran had both dark confidant, tierless tracker and eternal witness. (4, 3 and 2 respectivly.) I enjoyed the card draw in a very strong deck. I wanted to utelice aether vial for speed.
Anyway, instead of going to town with cryptic command I was thinking Kolaghan's Command could be utelised as a soft lock. Instead of bouncing it could return eternal witness to hand. Instead of countering or tapping it could discard the opnents hand instant speed.
While the people on this forum probably have little experience with playing rock, what do you think about something like this?
I am trading away the planewalkers, something that could potensial be a mistake.
Psionic blast is always available as a non-red bolt
Kolaghan's command only pulls things out of the graveyard, and dealing 2 damage isn't terribly strong.
I just don't feel that aether vial is providing you with all that much there.
After having had some suckess with GB rock I have been wanting to experiment with the deck. The deck I ran had both dark confidant, tierless tracker and eternal witness. (4, 3 and 2 respectivly.) I enjoyed the card draw in a very strong deck. I wanted to utelice aether vial for speed.
Anyway, instead of going to town with cryptic command I was thinking Kolaghan's Command could be utelised as a soft lock. Instead of bouncing it could return eternal witness to hand. Instead of countering or tapping it could discard the opnents hand instant speed.
While the people on this forum probably have little experience with playing rock, what do you think about something like this?
I am trading away the planewalkers, something that could potensial be a mistake.
Gotta agree with what Cody said, E-Wit+Kommand is not a softlock. Riding the commonly known Snap+Kommand value train seems stronger than to go with E-Wit.
With that many 3 drops I think it would be a lot better to go with some mana dorks instead of Vial. You don't even play blue so there's no need to hold up counterspells and you're also not hoping to set up a soft lock by turn 4.
Also most of the players here you treid out BUG EC (me included) are of the opinion that targeted discard+Vial don't mash well. You're playing 10 cards that are dead in the lategame in a deck that wants to get exactly there.
Some SB experiences from me: Chameleon Colossus has been great against Grixis DS so far. It's a narrow SB card (something I usually don't like) but I've won every game I've drawn it so far. Basilisk Collar has been pretty sweet too. Comes in against Burn and any deck with bigger creatures but not much removal (mainly Eldrazi Tron, but also stuff like Eldrazi&Taxes or Knightfall). Turns all our value Snaps and E-Wits into serious problems. And a lifelinking Goyf is pretty much game over for Burn unless they have a Revelry handy.
Have you played grim lavamancer with it?
I know you mentioned not liking the graveyard tax, but it feels like enough upside to me.
You also run traverse(do you still?) and having a lavamancer to tutor in games 2/3 feels worthwhile.
Yep, still run the singleton Traverse. Opportunity cost is low (I think I can count the times where I was stuck on land but had a Traverse that I couldn't cast on one hand...and I play that card for a while now) while the potential upside is high. Traverse value chains have definetely won me quite some games.
Are you refering to maindeck or SB Lavamancer?
Haven't played it with Collar yet, no. I think I can only see it main actually. Graveyard Hate is played in pretty much every SB right now and playing Lavamancer turn 1 against their turn 1 Relic of Progenitus feels pretty bad.
Guys, new 1 drop just perfect for this deck. Could bump it up a bit in terms of competitiveness.
Siren stormtamer
U
Creature- siren pirate wizard
Flying
U, sacrifice ~: counter target spell OR ABILITY that targets you or a creature you control.
1/1
Ok so let's break it down.
- A 1/1 for 1 isn't breaking any records, although flying is nice. 2/5
- Unconditional, uncounterable counter for removal or burn (or a combo thing like lightning storm or a valakut trigger). Has to target you so glen elendra archmage this is not, but extremely powerful all the same. Has pseudo haste for this ability because doesn't require tapping.
4.5/5
Evaluate for this deck:
- Can witness it back
- Can vial it in on 1, making it a completely uncounterable counter (wow!)
- can beat for a damage or two, so not completely useless in the tempo game.
Overall 4/5 for this deck. Would test for sure. Like it very much against removal heavy decks and burn etc, and stuff like ad nauseam gets hit hard by it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
The card looks quite nice, I'm not as hyped as Purklefluff seems to be though. It simply doesn't address any of the deck's weaknesses.
But let's examine a little more thoroughly what relevant stuff this hits:
-spot removal (solid for the tempo gameplan)
-K-Command unless they choose to destroy our Vial and get a creature back
-targeted discard (not bad, but usually too late being online turn 2 the earliest)
-LotV -2
-ONE Valakut trigger (that can buy us another turn against Scapeshift, but isn't really backbreaking)
-Burn spells
-Lightning Storm through Pact of Negation (this is really good)
-TKS trigger
-Shaman of the Pack trigger
-Nihil Spellbomb (that's neat, but they still get to draw a card)
-Nahiri's -2
-Gifts Ungiven
There's probably more but that all I could think about right now, please expand the list if you can think of more relevant stuff.
Overall I think we have to keep in mind that the window to Vial something in is only 1 turn, so in most cases our opponent will know that we have the Siren on the field, which reduces blowout potential a lot. It will rarely be dead, which is pretty good, but like I said, I don't see it improving bad MUs. I will test it, but have the feeling that for now Spell Pierce is more effective in more scenarios.
It counters a lot of planeswalker abilities (liliana ulti, chandra torch of defiance shooting things, gideon jura's +/-2s, karn's first two abilities, ugin's bolt, etc)
ulamog's cast trigger (potentially)
flickerwisp shenanigans
tidehollow sculler
some stuff out of lantern
conflagrate
probably other stuff too.
I don't think this card is amazing, but it definitely seems playable in this deck, and its basically the first one drop that is.
Keep in mind though, if we're just sitting on the siren as a deterrent, and they don't cast their spell, we still get to beat them for 1 every turn, which is definitely not irrelevant.
Well it hits most things you care about, in a sense it's like a wonky spellskite on a 1/1 flying body.
Also unlike spell queller which needs to rot in your hand until you get the right opportunity, this innocuous little guy gets to go straight to work pinging your opponent down slowly. That three or so damage could make a difference in quite a few games, maybe.
Anyway I like the card. Seems decent. The question is, what gets dropped to accommodate it?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
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Thanks for the link Raven!
Getting some content on EC is always nice, although I really don't think Quickling is what this deck wants (and his land base is terrible (5 lands that don't produce blue in a deck that usually wants 1UU on turn 3 and 1UUU on turn 4...))
Nice to hear that Spell Pierce is performing for you, I will probably try it out this Friday!
Here's the list I'll probably bring to FNM:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
2x Scavenginz Ooze
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Vendillion Clique
4x Aether Vial
4x Remand
3x Cryptic Command
4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Electrolyze
1x Vapor Snag
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Forest
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Breeding Pool
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Flooded Grove
2x Spreading Seas
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Negate
1x Dispel
1x Stone Rain
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Pulse of Murasa
1x Natural State
1x Izzet Staticaster
I'm pretty comfortable with the maindeck but I think the SB could be tweaked a little bit. With Gx Tron being a lot less popular, is a true land destruction spell (Stone Rain) still necessary? Or would another Spreading Seas just be better? (RG Valakut is decided by counterspells usually anyway). Do I really need another LD spell? Or is there some other stuff that's solid against Eldrazi Tron and also helps against other MUs?
With playing Spell Pierce main, are Dispel/Negate still both necessary in the board? Pierce should win counterwars against UWx control and counter Chords/Companies just as good as Dispel does. Maybe there's some grindy card I can play instead? Another Huntmaster?
The card should also be solid against (Goyf with lifelink? Yes please!) and the synergies with Staticaster and Huntmaster are pretty sweet!
I'm not sure how good it will be against Death's Shadow, but that's certainly another MU where I would at least try it out against.
Opinions?
I think lavamancer is pretty underrated right now, as a lot of decks either play tons of small creatures (that he shoots down) or X/4s / X/5s, which he teams up with a bolt to kill.
Nonetheless, collar definitely seems alright.
Good to be back
Anyway glad to have you back!
How's your current list looking like?
@Cody
I've been tinkering with Lavamancer a few times, helping to kill x/5 creatures looks pretty nice on paper but he's yet another card that taxes our graveyard, which is why I always ended up switching him out again.
There's been more people than usually so we actually played 5 rounds instead of the usual 4.
Here's the list I ended up bringing:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
2x Scavenginz Ooze
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Vendillion Clique
4x Aether Vial
4x Remand
3x Cryptic Command
4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Electrolyze
1x Vapor Snag
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Forest
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Breeding Pool
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Flooded Grove
2x Spreading Seas
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Dispel
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Pulse of Murasa
1x Natural State
1x Izzet Staticaster
Round 1: Lantern Control 2-1
G1: On the play keep an ok hand with cryptic, scooze, traverse, electrolyze and 3 lands, I get my scooze and cryptic stripped by discard and flood horribly. He assembles Bridge+Lantern+Codex Shredder and I concede to have enough time for 2 more games.
G2: Keep Vial, Goyf, Remand, E-Wit, Snap, 2 lands. Opponent strips my E-Wit but misses his 2nd land drop for a turn. I start beating down with Goyf, draw Ancient Grudge, which is surprisingly dead against his 2x Conjurer’s Bauble on the field. Clique adds more pressure and strips him off Bridge. He kills my Goyf but I Snap Remand his Collective Brutality to keep my Clique alive for another turn. And reduce his lifepoints bit by bit, hoping he doesn’t draw a bridge. With on one I cast Ancient Grudge on his Mox Opal during his upkeep to keep him off his third mana source (even if he sacs Bauble, Mox would get tapped. Opponent draws and shows me a Bridge…Game 3.
G3: Keep 3 lands, SV, EE, Bolt and Traverse. Explosives get thoughtseized away, play turn 2 Goyf. He pops a Nihil Spellbomb. I throw my Bolt at him to get more damage in with Goyf, which gets killed shortly after. Drop Huntmaster which gets killed by Collective Brutality but I can follow up with another Goyf (tutored by Traverse). He casts a Bridge but I Spell Pierce it and attack for lethal.
Round 2: UW Control 2-0
G1: On the draw I keep keep E-Wit, Scooze, Goyf, Bolt, 3 lands. Land my Goyf and start to chip damage. Play Scooze turn 4 probably running into Verdict. Correct. Rebuild my board with E-Wit into Scooze and start the grind. I manage to fight through small Gideon and Elspeth on the back of Bolts, E-Wits, Snaps and Cryptic (E-Wit getting back E-wit, dat value!), have to let him resolve a Revelation for 4. At the end he actually manages to cut off all my red sources but floods out (I saw his hand with Clique) and I manage to bring him down. What a game, wish I had better notes on it but I stopped taking them as soon as I realized that time will probably cause an issue here.
G2: I know I kept a nice hand with Vial, Scooze, Spell Pierce and I think a Snap. Vial is super valuable in the MU but seeing him mull to 5 and then snap keeping I decide to not play Vial turn 1 and keep the mana open for Pierce, he untaps and slams Rest in Piece, I fetch and say nope…felt pretty dang good haha (sidenote: usually not playing Vial on turn one is obviously wrong in probably 99% of the cases, it was really his reaction that made me decide not to and the fact that I could still play Vial on turn 2 with counter protection up. I’m actually still contemplating if it would have been the right choice on average, in this case it obviously was). After that he seemed out of action for a few turns and I can clique away his probably just drawn Verdict. He taps out for Elspeth in a last attempt a little later but that gets Snap Pierced and I attack for lethal next turn.
Round 3: RG Valakut 2-1
G1: The guy I play against is usually on RG Ponza so I’m happy to keep 2x Bolt, Remand, 2x Serum Vision and 2 lands on the draw. Scry Vial and a land to the top with SV since he leads with a forest but no dork. Just to realize he’s on Valakut instead next turn when he plays Farseek. Play the Vial, scry again but find nothing. I delay his Hour of Promise with Remand for a turn. And then concede to 2x active Valakuts with him still at 20 life.
G2: Mull to 6 and keep Bolt, 2x SV, Remand, and 2 lands. Scry Clique to top and find a Goyf with my turn 1 SV. From there it’s easy. Take away his Hour of promise with Clique. Remand his Titan and Snap Remand it again.
G3: Keep Spell Pierce, 2x SV, Snap and 3 lands. He drops Relic of Progenitus, I Pierce his Farseek and attack him in the air with Clique, which revealed me a hand full of pay off cards, but no ramp. Next turn he taps out to play Hour of Promise which I happily Snap Pierce (screw you Relic). Remand into Cryptic seals the deal.
Round 4: Dredge 2-0
G1: On the draw I keep 2x Remand, Cryptic and Familiar’s Ruse, hoping for a slow MU. I somehow thought I was on the play here, otherwise I would probably not have kept the hand. He plays Carthatic Reunion on turn 2 and dredges 4. Turn 3 Looting and I look at my hand and think at least cycle Remand, forcing him to use his Gemstone Mine a second time but putting another dredger+Bloodghast in the yard, which gets reanimated by a darkmore salvage hitting the battlefield and brings an Amalgam with it. Next turn another dredge, only finding a Narcomoeba. Since it’s too late to actually get the softlock going in time, the only way to win that game seems to try to colour screw him. I remand his LftL, casted of the last counter on Gemstone Mine and Vapor Snag his Amalgam. The plan works and he does not make another land drop for the turn. I play Goyf and start attacking, after dredging there is like 2 Amalgam and a Bloodghast in his grave but no more dredgers. He can’t get them to enter the field in time and when he finally does I can just tap them down with Cryptic and seal the deal.
Definitely got lucky here, but hey, always play to your outs!
G2: Keep a hand with Anger of the Gods, Snap, Surgical Extraction and 4 lands. Extract Conflagrate, Snap blocks a Bloodghast and extracts it too. Play Goyf turn 3 and Anger on turn 4 hitting 3 Amalgams and a Narcomoeba. From there it’s easy.
Round 5: RG Valakut 2-0
G1: Keep Vial, Goyf, Familiar’s Ruse, Cryptic and 3 lands on the play. He ramps up to 6 on turn 4, casts Pact and searches for Titan. I counter with Cryptic, which finds me an E-Wit for the softlock,giving me enough time to take him down with Goyf.
G2: Keep Goyf, Spell Pierce, Snap, Cryptic, Snap, 2 lands. Pierce Farseek, play Goyf, Snap Pierce Hour of Promise, Cryptic his Titan. Finish him off with Bolt+E-Wit.
I did it, 5-0! Awesome night with lots of tight games, only few misplays on my side and enough luck where it was needed to take it down.
Spell Pierce has been stellar! I'll probably cut my Snare for a second one.
What do you think about the Game 2 play against UW Control? I mean it obviously paid off this time, but on a more general take?
I'm also conflicted about Bolt and sideboarding. Do we keep it in for the reach against decks like RG Valakut? Keep in just 2 like I currently do? And against UW Control? I knew he played multiple walkers from Game 1, so I kept in 3 Bolts. What do you do if you don't see any walkers Game 1?
Pierce is the real deal, I play 2x now and so far I am really happy with it!
I have actually managed to outgrind UW control (a buddy of mine plays it) multiple times. Traverse chains are real!
Valakut has been a very solid MU so far, establish a threat and just Remand, Snap, Cryptic them all day.
Regarding my comments on BUG...the deck plays a lot more on the midrange control spectrum than RUG does, which makes Vial's tempo abilities worse. Not playing targeted discard in a deck that also runs Goyf as follow up plays is a huge price to pay for the Vial+E-Wit+Cryptic package (running 4 Vials+5-6 Discard plays in one deck just doesn't work out). I think that price is too high and dropping the package for discard and some other interaction/haymakers is simply better. Maybe there is a good BUG is out there, last time I tried it was after Fatal Push was printed and for me it just didn't really work out.
On another note...what are your thoughts on Chameleon Colossus as SB hate against Grixis Death's Shadow? Once resolved they pretty much can't deal with it (besides the very rare Bolt/Snap/Bolt) it blocks their stuff all day and easily finishes them off once they hit 8 life or less (can only be blocked by Snap)? Seems also ok against other grindy MUs.
I would just like to have something in my board that helps me to increase the odds in the MU.
Can't really tell on the Tasigur, but between 4x Goyfs, 2x Cliques and Flayer you should have enough beaters to shave one if you want. Maybe add an additional removal spell that can deal with Delve creatures/Eldrazi instead? Murderous Cut?
Because it doesn't have Bolt, BUG is definitely worse at the tempo game than RUG. Which makes it less suitable to exploit the tempo abilities that Vial offers.
RUG usually uses the softlock to 'get there' (because the lock itself is darn fragile) and, again, RUG is better at getting there than BUG because of Bolt. It uses the lock to keep big opposing creatures at bay, something the deck usually struggles with. BUG struggles a lot less against opposing creatures, you got all the removal spells in the world. You're less likely to end up in situations where it's Cryptic lock or bust. That makes the whole lock less necessary.
In RUG, the other deckbuilding option you have for a tempo/midrange deck is mainly to build around Blood Moon, ditching the lock package. A very powerful card but with very high variance depending on your MU. I prefer the EC build for numerous reasons.
In BUG your other option is playing targeted discard, getting access to multiple manlands (especially Creeping Tar Pit), an overall better mana base and playing less counterspells. In my testing this option felt more powerful than the BUG EC builds I brewed up (there's a reason people are always complaining that we have Thoughtseize but no Counterspell in Modern).
I'm not saying that RUG is better than BUG, as far as I can tell that's meta and playstyle dependent. I'm saying it's a very common thing that you brew up something new, end up putting more and more powerful cards into it to make it better and don't realize that it ended up being a slightly worse version of something that already exists. (It happened to me. a lot. I spent a lot of time trying to make the Eternal Ruse version of this deck work (very similar to EC, but plays more Familiar's Ruse and Coiling Oracles instead of Goyfs...pretty darn bad)).
And that's my opinion on BUG EC vs. BUG Midrange.
You (or others) don't need to share it, but I wanted to arguments clear.
Entrancing Melody sadly is not an instant. At instant I would have tried one in the main and one in the side (being able to keep counters up and steal manlands would give the card a huuuge boost). As a sorcery, I think it still deserves some testing in the side, but Goyf is pretty much at an all time low and Chameleon Colossus has been pretty good against Grixis Shadow, the MU where EM would likely come in most often.
The card I'm waiting for that also seems most likely to actually see print would be a solid one or two drop creature. Something that helps us draw through our deck faster (thereby helping to bridge the deckbuilding restrictions of Vial vs. Snapcaster Mage) but better than Coiling Oracle. For RUG a solid 2cmc creature with deathtouch seems like the closest thing we'll get to a killspell. A UG Baleful Strix without flying would be sweet sweet synergy in the deck. A blue one drop with a solid ETB could make running Familiar's Ruse a lot better. There's tons of possibilities if you ask me, but Wizards hasn't really shown much love for UG in Modern so far.
How are you guys approaching the UW Control MU? I tended to try to tempo them out but a timely Path or a resolved Gideon take away so much from our tempo game that I always ended up grinding them out, pick away at them with Snaps and E-Wits. So I started siding out my Goyfs and leaving in only value creatures and answers and so far that has worked out surprisingly well (been 5-0 against the deck since then). I don't know if it's because my opponents don't play the deck optimally (the guys at my LGS are solid players, but playing that deck optimally is hard) or if Vial actually just makes the MU that much better. They can't counter the value of Snaps/E-Wits while it allows us to not overextend into Verdict as much and it helps a lot in answering resolved planeswalkers.
What are your opinions/experiences against the deck?
I may have done yeah. I went through an emotional weekend at the GP and really enjoyed the experience (not my first GP but easily the most exhausting so far) but I definitely left feeling like Modern rewards the 'reps' and I'd be better off just jamming a deck over and over until I'm some kinda savant with it.
However, I've got three or so strong pet decks which I reckon I could do a good job with, as long as I stick to that small roster like glue and don't get distracted by the shiny new things haha :).
At the moment my lineup of decks-actually-in-boxes is:
Rug Omenshift
Eldrazi tron
Coco Vizier
Elves
Turns
Kci
Jund shadow
However I'm going to do the ol' switcheroo and put major focus on a single deck for a while, and gradually cycle through so I get proper time with each one. I'm not hitting up the protour any time soon, so I feel like I can afford to indulge my various pet decks without losing too much of an edge.
First focus deck will indeed be E-Command. It's been too long since I sleeved up my bolts and vials that I need to get it out of my system. Definitely still my favorite modern deck, maybe deck of all time.
So my slow-rotating focus is probably going to be:
Eternal command
Eldrazi tron
???
Profit
(look Ma, I did a meme)
My list is going to be pillaged from yours and my most recent RUG incarnation initially, and then I'll get 'brewy' and try bant with spell queller. My untested guess at the moment is that the deck still needs bolt. Let's see if my intuition is proven correct
See y'all soon for some discussion and game reports
After having had some suckess with GB rock I have been wanting to experiment with the deck. The deck I ran had both dark confidant, tierless tracker and eternal witness. (4, 3 and 2 respectivly.) I enjoyed the card draw in a very strong deck. I wanted to utelice aether vial for speed.
Anyway, instead of going to town with cryptic command I was thinking Kolaghan's Command could be utelised as a soft lock. Instead of bouncing it could return eternal witness to hand. Instead of countering or tapping it could discard the opnents hand instant speed.
While the people on this forum probably have little experience with playing rock, what do you think about something like this?
I am trading away the planewalkers, something that could potensial be a mistake.
19 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Aether Vial
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Kolaghan's Command
Kolaghan's command only pulls things out of the graveyard, and dealing 2 damage isn't terribly strong.
I just don't feel that aether vial is providing you with all that much there.
Gotta agree with what Cody said, E-Wit+Kommand is not a softlock. Riding the commonly known Snap+Kommand value train seems stronger than to go with E-Wit.
With that many 3 drops I think it would be a lot better to go with some mana dorks instead of Vial. You don't even play blue so there's no need to hold up counterspells and you're also not hoping to set up a soft lock by turn 4.
Also most of the players here you treid out BUG EC (me included) are of the opinion that targeted discard+Vial don't mash well. You're playing 10 cards that are dead in the lategame in a deck that wants to get exactly there.
Some SB experiences from me:
Chameleon Colossus has been great against Grixis DS so far. It's a narrow SB card (something I usually don't like) but I've won every game I've drawn it so far.
Basilisk Collar has been pretty sweet too. Comes in against Burn and any deck with bigger creatures but not much removal (mainly Eldrazi Tron, but also stuff like Eldrazi&Taxes or Knightfall). Turns all our value Snaps and E-Wits into serious problems. And a lifelinking Goyf is pretty much game over for Burn unless they have a Revelry handy.
I know you mentioned not liking the graveyard tax, but it feels like enough upside to me.
You also run traverse(do you still?) and having a lavamancer to tutor in games 2/3 feels worthwhile.
Are you refering to maindeck or SB Lavamancer?
Haven't played it with Collar yet, no. I think I can only see it main actually. Graveyard Hate is played in pretty much every SB right now and playing Lavamancer turn 1 against their turn 1 Relic of Progenitus feels pretty bad.
Siren stormtamer
U
Creature- siren pirate wizard
Flying
U, sacrifice ~: counter target spell OR ABILITY that targets you or a creature you control.
1/1
Ok so let's break it down.
- A 1/1 for 1 isn't breaking any records, although flying is nice. 2/5
- Unconditional, uncounterable counter for removal or burn (or a combo thing like lightning storm or a valakut trigger). Has to target you so glen elendra archmage this is not, but extremely powerful all the same. Has pseudo haste for this ability because doesn't require tapping.
4.5/5
Evaluate for this deck:
- Can witness it back
- Can vial it in on 1, making it a completely uncounterable counter (wow!)
- can beat for a damage or two, so not completely useless in the tempo game.
Overall 4/5 for this deck. Would test for sure. Like it very much against removal heavy decks and burn etc, and stuff like ad nauseam gets hit hard by it.
It also requires mana to sacrifice, but this thing definitely shows promise.
But let's examine a little more thoroughly what relevant stuff this hits:
-spot removal (solid for the tempo gameplan)
-K-Command unless they choose to destroy our Vial and get a creature back
-targeted discard (not bad, but usually too late being online turn 2 the earliest)
-LotV -2
-ONE Valakut trigger (that can buy us another turn against Scapeshift, but isn't really backbreaking)
-Burn spells
-Lightning Storm through Pact of Negation (this is really good)
-TKS trigger
-Shaman of the Pack trigger
-Nihil Spellbomb (that's neat, but they still get to draw a card)
-Nahiri's -2
-Gifts Ungiven
There's probably more but that all I could think about right now, please expand the list if you can think of more relevant stuff.
Overall I think we have to keep in mind that the window to Vial something in is only 1 turn, so in most cases our opponent will know that we have the Siren on the field, which reduces blowout potential a lot. It will rarely be dead, which is pretty good, but like I said, I don't see it improving bad MUs. I will test it, but have the feeling that for now Spell Pierce is more effective in more scenarios.
ulamog's cast trigger (potentially)
flickerwisp shenanigans
tidehollow sculler
some stuff out of lantern
conflagrate
probably other stuff too.
I don't think this card is amazing, but it definitely seems playable in this deck, and its basically the first one drop that is.
Keep in mind though, if we're just sitting on the siren as a deterrent, and they don't cast their spell, we still get to beat them for 1 every turn, which is definitely not irrelevant.
Also unlike spell queller which needs to rot in your hand until you get the right opportunity, this innocuous little guy gets to go straight to work pinging your opponent down slowly. That three or so damage could make a difference in quite a few games, maybe.
Anyway I like the card. Seems decent. The question is, what gets dropped to accommodate it?