I've been using roast over spell snare. I think its a more powerful card in this meta.
I think you have an interesting list. What made you decide that Jace wasn't worth the cut?
I have a question about Abrade vs. Ancient Grudge. Isn't Abrade just better because it can be used vs. artifacts but also against creatures?
They are simply different cards. Abrade is more versatile but Grudge is a cheap 2 for 1 and just so, so good against Affinity, Lantern, KCI etc.
I would never leave the house without at least one Ancient Grudge in my SB. That said, in a meta like we have right now you can definitely consider running an Abrade as your 5th Bolt in the mainboard.
So we got a sweet potential SB card spoiled: Alpine Moon
Unlike Blood Moon or Damping Sphere the card only affects the opponent's board.
Costing only R, it's super cheap (make it awesome and super flexible to play).
It hits a wide variety of cards:
-Tron (notably Tron lands care about the subtype, not the card name. So this turn all of them off)
-Valakut (pretty much needs to answer this before it can win)
-Manlands (especially Collonades are giving us a hard time, why not deal with all 4 of them. Also Inkmoth Nexus)
-Cavern of Souls (oh how much did I want something that deals with this against Eldrazi Tron, probably not worth it against Humans, as they also have Vials, but hey)
-All kinds of other utility lands, think Azcanta the Sunken Ruin etc.
While it's probably more of a speedbump than a actual hoser for Gx Tron decks, that little tempo can be all we need against them and the card should help in other MUs as well. I like it and see it probably replacing Spreading Seas.
Opinions?
Agree 100%. Blood is just to punishing on our own manabase. I think 2-3 of these will greatly improve a number of matchups. Blood Moon is great because it basically protects itself because it hoses an entire manabase, but it also ruins us.
I'm playing one Abrade in the main as a fifth bolt and keeping the two Grudge in the SB for now.
I don't have a local meta - I can't make it to the LGS very often - and I play almost exclusively online, so that's my 'meta'. I think spell snare is much better than spell pierce online. I'm running two in the main and one in the board. It helps in mage battles, helps against burn, and is good against so many creatures.
If someone has the time, I would really appreciate someone helping me out with how to SB with this deck (temur or sultai). I don't need a deck by deck breakdown, but maybe a sense of what comes out vs. various archetypes. I often find I'm just removing a smattering of this, one of those, one of these, but no real purpose behind my choices. Maybe just take your sideboard nad say, against control I'd take out this, and I'd bring in this (Huntmaster as an example).
I've been playing tempo spirits (vial) online for over a year and am quite good with the deck. I picked it up because it was cheep and I was just starting out online and didn't want to put money in. I've grinded my way to all the pieces I need for temur or sultia command. However, spirits is very very different from this deck and I've struggled off the hop - although just managed a 4-1 which made me very happy!
Lastly, I'm running two Huntmaster in the board. I notice that their are a number of good four drop creatures we can consider:
Huntmaster - I really like my experience with him so far
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - I see the benefit of this guy as well (affinity? what else?)
Thrun - a long time favorite -> seems amazing vs. control
Collossos -> obvious house vs. DS and Jund, what else?
Glenn Elendra - combo/control?
sweet to hear about the 4-1! I'm always happy to read some reports on how other Eternal Command decks are performing, so if you have the time to write one next time you play the deck (even if not doing well) that would be awesome!
Regarding sideboarding I'm too busy currently to write an extensive guide, maybe you can name some specific MUs you're having difficulties with?
Overall deciding what to bring in always seems easier to me than what to take out, so some tips for that:
-Remand goes out against all kinds of low cmc aggressive decks (Affinity, Burn, Humans etc.), it's also a lot worse on the draw than on the play
-Vial can be taken out against Jund and Mardu (bad lategame topdeck, they have lots of tools to destroy it)
-Vendillion Clique usually goes out against any kind of Lingering Souls strategy
-I have had success with siding out Tarmogoyf against UWx control strategies (making all our creatures 2 for 1s makes their spot removal a lot worse and it helped not getting hit as hard by RiP, since they adapted Search for Azcanta that card fell of though. Not sure if this is still correct)
-I side out E-Wit against fast combo decks (those MUs are all about efficiency in aggression and disruption, E-Wit isn't efficient in neither)
-Situational counterspells and removal (Spell Pierce, Snare, Roast etc.) get sided out against decks without many targets.
As far as 4 drops go, Huntmaster is proven and really ******* good in this deck. All the other stuff you mentioned is really dependend on what kind of meta you expect. P&K is solid, but only really better than Huntmaster if you expect a lot of Affinity, Thrun is obviously great against Control but that MU has been solid for me anyway. Colossus is too narrow for my taste and Glenn Elendra sadly is just too slow of a card in Modern.
Awesome to hear you picked up the deck, hope you have a lot of fun with it!
As with pretty much all more fringe deck, you'll need a good amount of practise with the deck to be competitive and mulliganing is definitely one of the important things to learn more about.
This is a Vial deck, which means starting hands with a Vial tend to be a lot better than hands without it. That makes mulliganing a mediocre 7 o even 6 without Vial a better decision than it would be in other decks.
What I look for in my starting hand:
1) early disruption: Bolts, Spell Snares/Pierces, Remands etc.
2) Vial
3) Clock: Goyf/Clique
4) Cantrips: SV or Opt
Pretty much any combination of 3 of these 4 makes a very solid starting hand. Any hand with early interruption and any other of the 3 is usually also keepable.
Cryptics and E-Wits are not really cards you want in your opening hand (same goes to some extend even for Snap, especially if you don't have any cheap spells).
Modern is FAST and not interacting or pressuring your opponents during the first turns means you lose.
The point about 3cmc creatures is they tend to be clunky without Vial. There's a ton of stuff we have a hard time answering if we can't counter it, so tapping out on turn 3 can turn out crucial easily. That's why we play Vendillion Clique as our other 3-drop.
I could see playing a copy or 2 of Tireless Tracker, especially in a grindier meta, though.
Between Snap and E-Wits and bouncing Snaps and E-Wits to play them again this deck can make a lot more use out of singletons than decks traditionally can.
I personally probably overdo it a little bit but besides Bolt, Remand and Cryptic there just aren't any good catchall answer that warrant playing 3+ copies.
Between our cantrips, Remand, Cryptic, Electrolyze and replaying all those cards we are also able to look through a decent amount of cards everygame to find those singletons.
I would love to have one or two more versatile answers, but we sadly simply don't have a K-Command in RUG colors.
Regarding Young Peezy: Unlike Legacy, the card took a long while til it found a home in Modern, it just needs a lot more build around in a format with less free spells, less powerful cantrips and a lot more spot removal.
People here in the thread (myself included) tested it out in a more cantrip heavy version after Opt was reprinted into Modern. Couldn't really make it work.
The meta has shifted yet again and gotten even faster. Is our deck playable? Does Sultai have the pieces to beat KCI or the new Vengevine list? Anyone having any success with it (either Sultai or Temer)?
I'd love to see some udated lists with some of the new cards that have been printed:
Cast Down - do we make room for this in Sultai?
Alpine Moon - how are folks finding this vs. Tron? I don't mind it, but its certainly not enough on its own.
It feels like Temer just doesn't have enough removal right now, whereas Sultai almost has to much! On the flip side Temer is better vs. Tron and has Anger. With the need for GY hate it also feels like the ability to play Nihil Spellbomb makes Sultia a little better right now.
It could be that my struggles with Eternall Commmand are due to reps and mulliganing (as Rayo points out). It feels rare that I have a nice combination of lands, creatures, and interaction off the hop.
Those of you playing both versions of the deck currently, it would be great to see your current lists.
Sadly I haven't really played EC much over the last months. Life is just keeping me too busy to participate in FNMs currently so I'm getting my magic fix with MTG Arena. It's not the same as playing Modern but I'm having fun with a Grixis Energy list and drafting.
I can't really tell you much about Sultai list but regarding Temur (which is written with a 'u' by the way): Alpine Moon still seems like a very solid SB card for us. I'd probably play 2x and a Spreading Seas. Yes it doesn't win the game against Tron but should greatly increase our chances to execute our tempo game with Goyfs/Cliques backed up by counterspells. It's also pretty good against Valakut decks and I'd test bringing it in against UW control as well, Collonades are pesky to deal with for us and this shuts all of the down. Champion of Wits is pretty bad without Vial. You don't wanna tapout on turn 3 for it in Modern and we really even get up to 7 lands, which is what makes the card really good.
Are you running ToK? because while it was played in the first iterations of this deck, consensus has pretty much been that it's too situational. While not always ideal playing a second vial can actually be very useful so it's really more about discarding the third Vial, which just doesn't come up often enough.
Regarding the current meta:
I think it's definitely time to play 1x Abrade maindeck as well as 2x Scavenging Oozes maybe even 2x Spell Pierces and at least 2x Anger of the Gods in the side (probably better 3x since it's also pretty good against Humans).
The actual big problem I see with the new meta is the rise in graveyard hate. People are packing Leyline of the Void again to tackle stuff like the new Vengevine lists. And we get hit in the crossfire, which sadly makes me think this deck is not really viable in the current meta.
All of this is pretty much theory crafting though, without actual testing to back it up. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.
Hi all! I've posted here previously with a link to some of my decklists and notes. My apologies for not following up with deeper thoughts, despite having had many in the interim.
I've been tinkering a bit more with the deck, and have generated quite a number of ideas, ranging from reasonable to outright silly/insane (which I can share at another time). For starters though, I put together what I dubbed a "clean" version of BUG eternal command, tweaked to take advantage of Assassin's Trophy. See below:
I'm not 100% sure if the above is correct (i.e. what I actually played), but it's at most +/- one maindeck card. I went 4-0 at yesterday's FNM, beating mono-red prison (2-0), mono-blue tron (2-1), GW valuetown (2-0) and KCI (2-1).
Some loose thoughts about certain card choices, concepts, and ideas:
1) Aether Vial. I've played with this card nonstop for something like 5 years now, having played a ton of D&T in Modern and Legacy. As a result, I am always starkly wary of how much of liability it can be in the midgame. As a result, I've tried to think of numerous ways to mitigate the possibility of drawing useless Vials in the midgame.
2) To this end, Collective Brutality is an amazing card, and I think less than 2 is a mistake. There are lots of reasons for this:
The main conundrum that has plagued the BUG colours in Modern for eternity is that even though there is a lot of natural synergy between those colours - there is actually a lot of conflicting aspects as well, particular among the best cards of those colours. The idea of midrange naturally suggests taking advantage of black cards like Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize and Liliana of the Veil, while blue offers countermagic and Snapcaster Mage. I'm of the belief that these cards don't work well together (hand disruption + LotV incentivizes depleting both players' hands and winning via sheer card quality, which simultaneously conflicts with Cryptic Command, not to mention Aether Vial haha), so you have to pick a primary approach and stick with it. So by virtue of building around Aether Vial/Eternal Witness/Cryptic Command in the first place, those cards are out of the question (without being excessively fancy). In this way, Collective Brutality fills all the gaps. It is an outlet for extra Aether Vials, it's spot removal, and to the above point, it offers hand disruption without pulling the deck heavily into that direction. It also plays well with Delirium (more on this below).
3) Traverse the Ulvenwald. I strongly think that this card belongs in this deck - for multiple very important reasons:
i) Again, by virtue of having Aether Vial, extra Aether Vials should go to the graveyard if possible. This makes (or should make) Delirium an easy thing to obtain.
ii) More importantly, Eternal Command is a deck that simultaneously plays Vial while playing few creatures - which is self conflicting in a way. Being able to traverse for a creature bridges the gap between taking advantage of Vial and the low creature count. Not to mention the selection as well.
iii) Another self-conflicting aspect of the deck is that by virtue of being a Vial deck, the land count is low. The majority of the deck takes advantage of the immense mana advantage you get against the opponent (Vial cheats on mana, spells are cheap, etc), which incentivizes a low land count. But at the same time, you need to hit your fourth landdrop to play the primary card in the deck! Lots of internal conflict. Again, Traverse is the perfect midgame card to glue everything together - it serves as an additional landdrop if need be, it can find the creature you need, it can be flashed back, etc.
I've tried a wild assortment of ideas to take this idea further, including:
i) Courser of Kruphix. It's an enchantment for Delirium and Goyf, plays nicely with Confidant - both by seeing the top card as well as lifegain, and increases chances of shuffling away dead topdecks like Vial. But ultimately I decided against it, due to the deck naturally not wanting to play a lot of lands. Same logic goes against playing Tireless Tracker main.
ii) Mishra's Bauble. I still like the idea, but at the end of the day, I figured there was simply not enough room in the deck. If I had the balls to shave a land or two, I might include 2x of them or something.
iii) Liliana, the Last Hope. Another card type, plays well with the graveyard. Decided against it for now in the interest of keeping the maindeck "clean". Could see myself cutting a land for her.
iv) Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Same as above, but too mana-costly. The main reason for not trying it maindeck was that it strays away too much from the deck's primary game-plan. So I decided to try it (for now) in the board, in the event that my post-board plan shifts to grinding more.
v) Bitterblossom. Enchantment card type, and is a threat. A great turn 2 follow-up to Vial. But I decided to put it in the board, since its impact varies drastically based on matchup.
vi) Search for Azcanta. I picked this maindeck instead of Bitterblossom because pre-board, the opponent doesn't have as much graveyard hate. In that case, it also serves as a pseudo land-drop (and blue!). It's equally, if not more, potent as a turn 2 follow-up to Vial. The big reason here though is that I want the maindeck to abuse the graveyard, and have the option to shift the deck away from the graveyard post-board if need be (i.e. Bitterblossom out of the board since it's a non-graveyard-based threat that can just win the game on its own).
4) Dark Confidant. Maybe this card doesn't necessarily need a discussion, but I think there are some subtleties here. The main thing is that as with all Aether Vial decks, with an early Vial, mana expenditure is massively accelerated - but as a result, gas depletes similarly quickly. Dark Confidant is the perfect card to bridge this gap. There also seems to be an interesting dynamic where it's a removal lightning rod, and thus makes for a very good early game Eternal Witness target.
I won't comment in specifics about the sideboard, since the majority of it are just random experimental choices. But I think the following are important to consider:
i) 4 Leyline of the Void. I think this is absolutely a no-brainer, especially right now. There are so many strong graveyard-based decks right now (Dredge, Hollow One, Mardu Pyromancer, KCI, etc) that you simply cannot beat otherwise. It's an auto-win there. And in line with the aforementioned logic with Delirium and Traverse, there are plenty of ways of take advantage of extra copies later in the game.
ii) Despite that, I think it's worthwhile to incorporate non-graveyard-based win conditions post-board. Bitterblossom against Control/Midrange, planeswalkers, creatures (not sure Tireless Tracker is actually that good), etc. And the rest is just flex. Appropriate countermagic, board sweepers for assuming the control position.
All in all, the deck is powerful, and is flexible enough to re-configure into all sorts of approaches post-board. For example: you can play a tempo-oriented game against Tron by sticking a threat and countering you way to victory. You can outgrind midrange/control opponents. You can play the control role against aggro decks.
This was by no means comprehensive, but hopefully this was insightful. Happy to discuss further, answer questions, etc.
Nice to hear from you again 2imu!
I'm not playing the BUG version so I don't really feel in the position to comment on all the stuff you wrote.
It's nice to see someone agreeing on Traverse with me, I've been a proponent of playing it as a 1x pretty much since it was printed exactly for the reasons you stated, it just bridges so many conflicts this deck has quite well (virtually higher creature count while also being nice with snap and enabling a loer land count...).
Since you're also running Grim Flayer, 2x Baubles seem really worth testing. The 22 lands you're running are rather on the safe side actually. We run 4x SV (2x= 1 land according to the Xerox rule) + Aether Vials + Traverse. 21 lands is easily doable (and has been kind of the consensus on this thread). If have played 20 lands with success.
So shaving a land (probably a fetch, 10 is a lot) and another card for 2x Baubles seems worth trying out.
How good has Trophy been for you? With all the recursion between Snap and E-Wit, does this deck really want 3?
I'm also sceptical regarding the Dark Confidants. Even Jund hasn't really been playing it lately and that deck can make better use of it than we can (more lands, more a of 'let's get into topdeck mode' game plan). I don't think it's well positioned right now, fast decks kill you before he actually gains you an advantage, grindy decks easily kill it on sight. On top of that we already have quite the amount of CA between Snaps, E-Wits, Commands, SfA...
Getting rid of Bob would free a lot of space for some meta answers like Spell Snare or Dismember.
Man I haven't seen a list that made we give BUG a chance again in a while, but maybe the combination of more threats (grim flayer) and Trophy leaves the Tron and combo MUs good enough to not have Bolt.
Hey guys! Curious about thoughts on grim flayer being in the deck. My preference from the last list posted would be to drop confidants and flayers in favour of 2 clique, some spell snares and a flex card, prob a last hope to get more use of azcanta and gy synergy as mentioned 2imu would like to try. Alternatively if it's clocks that the bug list wants to see, (thing is I don't know) I'd reconfigure the following deck list a bit. I'm just used to more control.
Had my first go with eternal command playing the deck I posted above. It was fun to play but I didn't do well, (expected for my first time playing) unusual meta tonight which made things super fun! I lost to dredge and goblins x2. I beat swans. Notes I took away from the night, Liliana was always to slow, better saved in the side board for games she shines, I spent the night in a lot of spots wanting mana leak and to a lesser extent wanting threats to close out games faster. I think trophy is a great card for this deck. I drew it often and played it often mostly out of necessity though. Sadly, it would be a nonbo with leak... :/
Some refining to come and I want to try the rug version too.
Edit: having finally had a chance to read some of the thread or seems my initial thought on omitting flayer are very wrong. Looking forward to trying again with them in.
In my opinion, if you have a metagame full of Caverns and in general cards, which do not really care about Counter Spells (Aether Vial e.g.) I would switch over to the BUG version, better removal and also more interesting cards to chose from.
Otherwise, I would currently up the number of Spell Snare (to 3 at least), since there are so many 2 CMC cards floating around. Also, I would still play Leak over Remand, simply because of the fact, that you need it in several match-ups, be it Storm, KCI, Midrange and somewhat the Control match-up (here depends on what bombs he is playing).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
For sure. In just my first night of playing with him in the deck he was just straight velocity. I think the actual magic is a result of him being a two drop. An early body we can cast for mana if needed or better yet give the ability to hold up mana leak early to play him out via vial feels really nice, the early pressure potential he gives the deck plus potential "ponderesque" ability or fueling the graveyard for either himself, or Goyf, or snapcaster, or witness...That's a REALLY powerful tool that we take a lot of advantage of. Typically people don't like the term removal magnet but hear me out. I'd rather he eats the removal spell than my Goyfs or even my witnesses if I'm trying to set up a soft lock. And until we are able to finally pitch a vial we need a creature in the yard for both Goyf and delirium.
Now we need a similar creature in rug colors.
I hope that's enough to satisfy your inquiry.
Fun story, last night playing against sramioos, once I knew I had control of the game I actually used flayers ability to dump my sideborded bitterblossom and Lily last hope into the gy for a 8/9 Goyf... Dude just scooped it up. #makegoyfgreatagain
For me, the important aspect is: He is a freaking good two drop.
This basically means, that you can increase your threat density on the most important slot (the two drop slot), since it is the sweetspot between having Vial and going Threat + something different. Furthermore, having the combination of Dark Confidant (IF you want to run him, would need to test it to get a feeling, if he is worth it), Goyf, Flayer, Snappy and Ooze gives you 12+ good two drops (4 Goyf, 3 Confidant, 3 Flayer, 2 Snappy would be my current set-up) while each one of them is in one form or another a must answer card. Flayer is, regarding CA in the same league as Confidant, instead of giving you a raw card per turn, he gives you raw card quality, something the RUG version for example lacks.
Simply said: Flayer allows you to play more efficient with mana, cards and removal (trample says hi).
To be honest, Flayer was the main reason, why I tested the BUG version to begin with
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
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I've been using roast over spell snare. I think its a more powerful card in this meta.
I think you have an interesting list. What made you decide that Jace wasn't worth the cut?
I have a question about Abrade vs. Ancient Grudge. Isn't Abrade just better because it can be used vs. artifacts but also against creatures?
They are simply different cards. Abrade is more versatile but Grudge is a cheap 2 for 1 and just so, so good against Affinity, Lantern, KCI etc.
I would never leave the house without at least one Ancient Grudge in my SB. That said, in a meta like we have right now you can definitely consider running an Abrade as your 5th Bolt in the mainboard.
Unlike Blood Moon or Damping Sphere the card only affects the opponent's board.
Costing only R, it's super cheap (make it awesome and super flexible to play).
It hits a wide variety of cards:
-Tron (notably Tron lands care about the subtype, not the card name. So this turn all of them off)
-Valakut (pretty much needs to answer this before it can win)
-Manlands (especially Collonades are giving us a hard time, why not deal with all 4 of them. Also Inkmoth Nexus)
-Cavern of Souls (oh how much did I want something that deals with this against Eldrazi Tron, probably not worth it against Humans, as they also have Vials, but hey)
-All kinds of other utility lands, think Azcanta the Sunken Ruin etc.
While it's probably more of a speedbump than a actual hoser for Gx Tron decks, that little tempo can be all we need against them and the card should help in other MUs as well. I like it and see it probably replacing Spreading Seas.
Opinions?
I'm playing one Abrade in the main as a fifth bolt and keeping the two Grudge in the SB for now.
I don't have a local meta - I can't make it to the LGS very often - and I play almost exclusively online, so that's my 'meta'. I think spell snare is much better than spell pierce online. I'm running two in the main and one in the board. It helps in mage battles, helps against burn, and is good against so many creatures.
If someone has the time, I would really appreciate someone helping me out with how to SB with this deck (temur or sultai). I don't need a deck by deck breakdown, but maybe a sense of what comes out vs. various archetypes. I often find I'm just removing a smattering of this, one of those, one of these, but no real purpose behind my choices. Maybe just take your sideboard nad say, against control I'd take out this, and I'd bring in this (Huntmaster as an example).
I've been playing tempo spirits (vial) online for over a year and am quite good with the deck. I picked it up because it was cheep and I was just starting out online and didn't want to put money in. I've grinded my way to all the pieces I need for temur or sultia command. However, spirits is very very different from this deck and I've struggled off the hop - although just managed a 4-1 which made me very happy!
Lastly, I'm running two Huntmaster in the board. I notice that their are a number of good four drop creatures we can consider:
Huntmaster - I really like my experience with him so far
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - I see the benefit of this guy as well (affinity? what else?)
Thrun - a long time favorite -> seems amazing vs. control
Collossos -> obvious house vs. DS and Jund, what else?
Glenn Elendra - combo/control?
Anyways, everyone's help is appreciated.
Regarding sideboarding I'm too busy currently to write an extensive guide, maybe you can name some specific MUs you're having difficulties with?
Overall deciding what to bring in always seems easier to me than what to take out, so some tips for that:
-Remand goes out against all kinds of low cmc aggressive decks (Affinity, Burn, Humans etc.), it's also a lot worse on the draw than on the play
-Vial can be taken out against Jund and Mardu (bad lategame topdeck, they have lots of tools to destroy it)
-Vendillion Clique usually goes out against any kind of Lingering Souls strategy
-I have had success with siding out Tarmogoyf against UWx control strategies (making all our creatures 2 for 1s makes their spot removal a lot worse and it helped not getting hit as hard by RiP, since they adapted Search for Azcanta that card fell of though. Not sure if this is still correct)
-I side out E-Wit against fast combo decks (those MUs are all about efficiency in aggression and disruption, E-Wit isn't efficient in neither)
-Situational counterspells and removal (Spell Pierce, Snare, Roast etc.) get sided out against decks without many targets.
As far as 4 drops go, Huntmaster is proven and really ******* good in this deck. All the other stuff you mentioned is really dependend on what kind of meta you expect. P&K is solid, but only really better than Huntmaster if you expect a lot of Affinity, Thrun is obviously great against Control but that MU has been solid for me anyway. Colossus is too narrow for my taste and Glenn Elendra sadly is just too slow of a card in Modern.
As with pretty much all more fringe deck, you'll need a good amount of practise with the deck to be competitive and mulliganing is definitely one of the important things to learn more about.
This is a Vial deck, which means starting hands with a Vial tend to be a lot better than hands without it. That makes mulliganing a mediocre 7 o even 6 without Vial a better decision than it would be in other decks.
What I look for in my starting hand:
1) early disruption: Bolts, Spell Snares/Pierces, Remands etc.
2) Vial
3) Clock: Goyf/Clique
4) Cantrips: SV or Opt
Pretty much any combination of 3 of these 4 makes a very solid starting hand. Any hand with early interruption and any other of the 3 is usually also keepable.
Cryptics and E-Wits are not really cards you want in your opening hand (same goes to some extend even for Snap, especially if you don't have any cheap spells).
Modern is FAST and not interacting or pressuring your opponents during the first turns means you lose.
The point about 3cmc creatures is they tend to be clunky without Vial. There's a ton of stuff we have a hard time answering if we can't counter it, so tapping out on turn 3 can turn out crucial easily. That's why we play Vendillion Clique as our other 3-drop.
I could see playing a copy or 2 of Tireless Tracker, especially in a grindier meta, though.
Between Snap and E-Wits and bouncing Snaps and E-Wits to play them again this deck can make a lot more use out of singletons than decks traditionally can.
I personally probably overdo it a little bit but besides Bolt, Remand and Cryptic there just aren't any good catchall answer that warrant playing 3+ copies.
Between our cantrips, Remand, Cryptic, Electrolyze and replaying all those cards we are also able to look through a decent amount of cards everygame to find those singletons.
I would love to have one or two more versatile answers, but we sadly simply don't have a K-Command in RUG colors.
Regarding Young Peezy: Unlike Legacy, the card took a long while til it found a home in Modern, it just needs a lot more build around in a format with less free spells, less powerful cantrips and a lot more spot removal.
People here in the thread (myself included) tested it out in a more cantrip heavy version after Opt was reprinted into Modern. Couldn't really make it work.
The meta has shifted yet again and gotten even faster. Is our deck playable? Does Sultai have the pieces to beat KCI or the new Vengevine list? Anyone having any success with it (either Sultai or Temer)?
I'd love to see some udated lists with some of the new cards that have been printed:
Cast Down - do we make room for this in Sultai?
Alpine Moon - how are folks finding this vs. Tron? I don't mind it, but its certainly not enough on its own.
It feels like Temer just doesn't have enough removal right now, whereas Sultai almost has to much! On the flip side Temer is better vs. Tron and has Anger. With the need for GY hate it also feels like the ability to play Nihil Spellbomb makes Sultia a little better right now.
It could be that my struggles with Eternall Commmand are due to reps and mulliganing (as Rayo points out). It feels rare that I have a nice combination of lands, creatures, and interaction off the hop.
Those of you playing both versions of the deck currently, it would be great to see your current lists.
I can't really tell you much about Sultai list but regarding Temur (which is written with a 'u' by the way):
Alpine Moon still seems like a very solid SB card for us. I'd probably play 2x and a Spreading Seas. Yes it doesn't win the game against Tron but should greatly increase our chances to execute our tempo game with Goyfs/Cliques backed up by counterspells. It's also pretty good against Valakut decks and I'd test bringing it in against UW control as well, Collonades are pesky to deal with for us and this shuts all of the down.
Champion of Wits is pretty bad without Vial. You don't wanna tapout on turn 3 for it in Modern and we really even get up to 7 lands, which is what makes the card really good.
Are you running ToK? because while it was played in the first iterations of this deck, consensus has pretty much been that it's too situational. While not always ideal playing a second vial can actually be very useful so it's really more about discarding the third Vial, which just doesn't come up often enough.
Regarding the current meta:
I think it's definitely time to play 1x Abrade maindeck as well as 2x Scavenging Oozes maybe even 2x Spell Pierces and at least 2x Anger of the Gods in the side (probably better 3x since it's also pretty good against Humans).
The actual big problem I see with the new meta is the rise in graveyard hate. People are packing Leyline of the Void again to tackle stuff like the new Vengevine lists. And we get hit in the crossfire, which sadly makes me think this deck is not really viable in the current meta.
All of this is pretty much theory crafting though, without actual testing to back it up. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.
This card is so disgustingly strong. I think this makes the BUG version of eternal command stronger than RUG. Thoughts?
Just the idea of 4 assassin's trophy, 4 abrupt, 4 spell caster with vial is gross.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I've been tinkering a bit more with the deck, and have generated quite a number of ideas, ranging from reasonable to outright silly/insane (which I can share at another time). For starters though, I put together what I dubbed a "clean" version of BUG eternal command, tweaked to take advantage of Assassin's Trophy. See below:
1 search for azcanta
4 tarmogoyf
2 grim flayer
3 dark confidant
4 snapcaster mage
2 eternal witness
4 serum visions
1 traverse the ulvenwald
2 collective brutality
3 fatal push
3 assassin's trophy
2 remand
3 cryptic command
3 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
2 watery grave
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
2 darkslick shores
1 blooming marsh
1 creeping tar pit
2 island
1 swamp
1 forest
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 liliana, the last hope
1 bitterblossom
1 tireless tracker
1 obstinate baloth
1 negate
1 spell snare
1 damping sphere
1 golgari charm
2 damnation
4 leyline of the void
I'm not 100% sure if the above is correct (i.e. what I actually played), but it's at most +/- one maindeck card. I went 4-0 at yesterday's FNM, beating mono-red prison (2-0), mono-blue tron (2-1), GW valuetown (2-0) and KCI (2-1).
Some loose thoughts about certain card choices, concepts, and ideas:
1) Aether Vial. I've played with this card nonstop for something like 5 years now, having played a ton of D&T in Modern and Legacy. As a result, I am always starkly wary of how much of liability it can be in the midgame. As a result, I've tried to think of numerous ways to mitigate the possibility of drawing useless Vials in the midgame.
2) To this end, Collective Brutality is an amazing card, and I think less than 2 is a mistake. There are lots of reasons for this:
The main conundrum that has plagued the BUG colours in Modern for eternity is that even though there is a lot of natural synergy between those colours - there is actually a lot of conflicting aspects as well, particular among the best cards of those colours. The idea of midrange naturally suggests taking advantage of black cards like Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize and Liliana of the Veil, while blue offers countermagic and Snapcaster Mage. I'm of the belief that these cards don't work well together (hand disruption + LotV incentivizes depleting both players' hands and winning via sheer card quality, which simultaneously conflicts with Cryptic Command, not to mention Aether Vial haha), so you have to pick a primary approach and stick with it. So by virtue of building around Aether Vial/Eternal Witness/Cryptic Command in the first place, those cards are out of the question (without being excessively fancy). In this way, Collective Brutality fills all the gaps. It is an outlet for extra Aether Vials, it's spot removal, and to the above point, it offers hand disruption without pulling the deck heavily into that direction. It also plays well with Delirium (more on this below).
3) Traverse the Ulvenwald. I strongly think that this card belongs in this deck - for multiple very important reasons:
i) Again, by virtue of having Aether Vial, extra Aether Vials should go to the graveyard if possible. This makes (or should make) Delirium an easy thing to obtain.
ii) More importantly, Eternal Command is a deck that simultaneously plays Vial while playing few creatures - which is self conflicting in a way. Being able to traverse for a creature bridges the gap between taking advantage of Vial and the low creature count. Not to mention the selection as well.
iii) Another self-conflicting aspect of the deck is that by virtue of being a Vial deck, the land count is low. The majority of the deck takes advantage of the immense mana advantage you get against the opponent (Vial cheats on mana, spells are cheap, etc), which incentivizes a low land count. But at the same time, you need to hit your fourth landdrop to play the primary card in the deck! Lots of internal conflict. Again, Traverse is the perfect midgame card to glue everything together - it serves as an additional landdrop if need be, it can find the creature you need, it can be flashed back, etc.
I've tried a wild assortment of ideas to take this idea further, including:
i) Courser of Kruphix. It's an enchantment for Delirium and Goyf, plays nicely with Confidant - both by seeing the top card as well as lifegain, and increases chances of shuffling away dead topdecks like Vial. But ultimately I decided against it, due to the deck naturally not wanting to play a lot of lands. Same logic goes against playing Tireless Tracker main.
ii) Mishra's Bauble. I still like the idea, but at the end of the day, I figured there was simply not enough room in the deck. If I had the balls to shave a land or two, I might include 2x of them or something.
iii) Liliana, the Last Hope. Another card type, plays well with the graveyard. Decided against it for now in the interest of keeping the maindeck "clean". Could see myself cutting a land for her.
iv) Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Same as above, but too mana-costly. The main reason for not trying it maindeck was that it strays away too much from the deck's primary game-plan. So I decided to try it (for now) in the board, in the event that my post-board plan shifts to grinding more.
v) Bitterblossom. Enchantment card type, and is a threat. A great turn 2 follow-up to Vial. But I decided to put it in the board, since its impact varies drastically based on matchup.
vi) Search for Azcanta. I picked this maindeck instead of Bitterblossom because pre-board, the opponent doesn't have as much graveyard hate. In that case, it also serves as a pseudo land-drop (and blue!). It's equally, if not more, potent as a turn 2 follow-up to Vial. The big reason here though is that I want the maindeck to abuse the graveyard, and have the option to shift the deck away from the graveyard post-board if need be (i.e. Bitterblossom out of the board since it's a non-graveyard-based threat that can just win the game on its own).
4) Dark Confidant. Maybe this card doesn't necessarily need a discussion, but I think there are some subtleties here. The main thing is that as with all Aether Vial decks, with an early Vial, mana expenditure is massively accelerated - but as a result, gas depletes similarly quickly. Dark Confidant is the perfect card to bridge this gap. There also seems to be an interesting dynamic where it's a removal lightning rod, and thus makes for a very good early game Eternal Witness target.
I won't comment in specifics about the sideboard, since the majority of it are just random experimental choices. But I think the following are important to consider:
i) 4 Leyline of the Void. I think this is absolutely a no-brainer, especially right now. There are so many strong graveyard-based decks right now (Dredge, Hollow One, Mardu Pyromancer, KCI, etc) that you simply cannot beat otherwise. It's an auto-win there. And in line with the aforementioned logic with Delirium and Traverse, there are plenty of ways of take advantage of extra copies later in the game.
ii) Despite that, I think it's worthwhile to incorporate non-graveyard-based win conditions post-board. Bitterblossom against Control/Midrange, planeswalkers, creatures (not sure Tireless Tracker is actually that good), etc. And the rest is just flex. Appropriate countermagic, board sweepers for assuming the control position.
All in all, the deck is powerful, and is flexible enough to re-configure into all sorts of approaches post-board. For example: you can play a tempo-oriented game against Tron by sticking a threat and countering you way to victory. You can outgrind midrange/control opponents. You can play the control role against aggro decks.
This was by no means comprehensive, but hopefully this was insightful. Happy to discuss further, answer questions, etc.
Cheers!
I'm not playing the BUG version so I don't really feel in the position to comment on all the stuff you wrote.
It's nice to see someone agreeing on Traverse with me, I've been a proponent of playing it as a 1x pretty much since it was printed exactly for the reasons you stated, it just bridges so many conflicts this deck has quite well (virtually higher creature count while also being nice with snap and enabling a loer land count...).
Since you're also running Grim Flayer, 2x Baubles seem really worth testing. The 22 lands you're running are rather on the safe side actually. We run 4x SV (2x= 1 land according to the Xerox rule) + Aether Vials + Traverse. 21 lands is easily doable (and has been kind of the consensus on this thread). If have played 20 lands with success.
So shaving a land (probably a fetch, 10 is a lot) and another card for 2x Baubles seems worth trying out.
How good has Trophy been for you? With all the recursion between Snap and E-Wit, does this deck really want 3?
I'm also sceptical regarding the Dark Confidants. Even Jund hasn't really been playing it lately and that deck can make better use of it than we can (more lands, more a of 'let's get into topdeck mode' game plan). I don't think it's well positioned right now, fast decks kill you before he actually gains you an advantage, grindy decks easily kill it on sight. On top of that we already have quite the amount of CA between Snaps, E-Wits, Commands, SfA...
Getting rid of Bob would free a lot of space for some meta answers like Spell Snare or Dismember.
Man I haven't seen a list that made we give BUG a chance again in a while, but maybe the combination of more threats (grim flayer) and Trophy leaves the Tron and combo MUs good enough to not have Bolt.
1 search for azcanta
4 tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 snapcaster mage
3 eternal witness
1 Liliana, the last hope
4 serum visions
1 traverse the ulvenwald
2 collective brutality
3 fatal push
3 assassin's trophy
2 remand
3 cryptic command
3 spell snare
2 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
1 watery grave
2 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 creeping tar pit
2 island
1 swamp
1 forest
1 thrun, the last troll
2 dispel
1 bitterblossom
1 unmoored ego
2 feed the clan
1 negate
1 seal of primordium
2 damnation
4 leyline of the void
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Some refining to come and I want to try the rug version too.
Edit: having finally had a chance to read some of the thread or seems my initial thought on omitting flayer are very wrong. Looking forward to trying again with them in.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Otherwise, I would currently up the number of Spell Snare (to 3 at least), since there are so many 2 CMC cards floating around. Also, I would still play Leak over Remand, simply because of the fact, that you need it in several match-ups, be it Storm, KCI, Midrange and somewhat the Control match-up (here depends on what bombs he is playing).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Now we need a similar creature in rug colors.
I hope that's enough to satisfy your inquiry.
Fun story, last night playing against sramioos, once I knew I had control of the game I actually used flayers ability to dump my sideborded bitterblossom and Lily last hope into the gy for a 8/9 Goyf... Dude just scooped it up. #makegoyfgreatagain
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
This basically means, that you can increase your threat density on the most important slot (the two drop slot), since it is the sweetspot between having Vial and going Threat + something different. Furthermore, having the combination of Dark Confidant (IF you want to run him, would need to test it to get a feeling, if he is worth it), Goyf, Flayer, Snappy and Ooze gives you 12+ good two drops (4 Goyf, 3 Confidant, 3 Flayer, 2 Snappy would be my current set-up) while each one of them is in one form or another a must answer card. Flayer is, regarding CA in the same league as Confidant, instead of giving you a raw card per turn, he gives you raw card quality, something the RUG version for example lacks.
Simply said: Flayer allows you to play more efficient with mana, cards and removal (trample says hi).
To be honest, Flayer was the main reason, why I tested the BUG version to begin with
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)