First off I recommend only running one Logic Knot in your 75.
The whole point of Logic Knot is that it is versatile, with the drawback on requiring 2 blue mana. It can be used as a force spike early, Mana Leak mid-game, and counterspell late game. It has a flexibility that other 2 mana "counters" dont.
One aspect that you seem to be overlooking is its ability to coincide and compliment with tasigur. Sculpting your graveyard in long, grindy games is crucial, and the ability to delve away 5, or even 10 cards in the late game can be game changing.
I am under the belief that 4 or 5 delve spells are ideal, and the choice between murderous cut or logic knot is generally that 5th spell. Logic Knot gives you a hard counter while Murderous Cut gives you a Path to Exile.
Opt felt very good on delver, but I'm really not sold into V.Clique. It's just too heavy for what it does, I usually would rather have a bomb at 3 mana like K.Command.
But then again, I also think Young Pyromancer is underperforming, I've started with 4 copies, and I'm wondering if I should still run the 1 I am running. Was it a meta change or something I didn't get? A year ago (when I used to play it as a 4 of) pyromancer sounded very sweet when I played it.
I'm having 4 delver, 4 snapcaster, 2 anglers and 2 tasigurs as my creature base, but I don't really know what else to get, and only 12 creatures sound way too low. Maybe 1 lavamancer? It sound good, except for the excess of grave using, with already 4 snap, 4 delve creatures and 2 K.command.
Opt felt very good on delver, but I'm really not sold into V.Clique. It's just too heavy for what it does, I usually would rather have a bomb at 3 mana like K.Command.
But then again, I also think Young Pyromancer is underperforming, I've started with 4 copies, and I'm wondering if I should still run the 1 I am running. Was it a meta change or something I didn't get? A year ago (when I used to play it as a 4 of) pyromancer sounded very sweet when I played it.
I'm having 4 delver, 4 snapcaster, 2 anglers and 2 tasigurs as my creature base, but I don't really know what else to get, and only 12 creatures sound way too low. Maybe 1 lavamancer? It sound good, except for the excess of grave using, with already 4 snap, 4 delve creatures and 2 K.command.
V-clique is sideboard. Good for match-ups where you REALLY want to take their turn 3 bomb away (i.e. combo). Young Peezy is good, but essentially replaces v-clique. Depending on your meta you can main 1 or the other then sideboard additional Pyro's. Don`t worry too much on creature volume, you have lots of cards to control the game, go aggressive with DD (bolt/k-command), or get back dead critters (k-command).
Mostly I really wanted to test out chart a course and with the added card advantage I thought I could get away with running disrupting shoal. It's a great tempo swing and very surprising for opponents who are trying to kill your turn 1 delver or chalice you on the draw.
I would love some opinions on the creature suite and the hand creature counter spell ratios and choices. Is a more aggressive desist with more burn and monetary swiftspear better for a build like this and maybe dropping black? Could I shave a land? More counter spells? I'm rather be too delver but absolutely love the card and haven't played it in modern yet 😔 but there is nothing I like more than tempo decks and grixis Shadow is too mid-rangy for my ideal fun (plus young pyromancer is a pet card if mine.) Any thoughts and opinions are very welcome!
Why run Death Shadow at all if you said you prefer pyro and delver? I haven't seen too many delver/shadow variants have much success. One or the other is much more solidified. My biggest criticism is only 2 snapcasters. If you had a more aggressive game plan then having only 2 is ok I think. Otherwise, I personally haven't played with disrupting shoal myself but I gotta imagine it's just not gonna be up to par. Easy to imagine it as a pseudo force of will until your opponent played eldrazi and it's totally dead
I'm a bit surprised you elected to revoke thought scour and the delve creature package since it's so powerful, but it does make you less graveyard reliant which is a plus! List certainly doesn't look bad! I'm not sure about the counterspells you chose but I'm not sure what I'd replace them with. What I am sure is that 2 dismembers and 1 push looks veeerrrryyyyy light on hard removal (exempting bolt). Might wanna add another push or a terminate or 2.
Thanks for the reply! My main thought process with Shadow is too mitigate the damage from the men's base by embracing it and gaining some flexibly with thoughtsiezes and dismembers (maybe should up to 3). The 2 Snapcasters are replaced by 3 chart a course which ups the spell count and gets cards in hand for shoal. I was thinking shoal would be a great trade of cards for tempo especially in the play against a turn 2 chalice on the okay after dropping a delver or a removal spell. I should probably add a couple dark confidant. I was drawn to delver largely to reduce reliance on the grave yard and ease the hate available to other decks which is why I didn't go with a delve package (and with only 2 Snapcasters I figured opt > scour).
This is all theory craft ATM so it might not work but those are my main thoughts on those choices. I really struggled with balancing hand disruption, counter-magic, and removal and I don't feel strongly like I hit the right balance.
Thanks again for the reply everything helps 🙂
ive dropped pyro down to 2 which has been decent for me. v.cliquie i think should be either 1 or 0 its good but the 3 mana cost can create awkward lines of play.
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Hey all, first time poster in this thread. I've been wanting to tinker with Grixis Delver in Modern for some time now, so I'm happy to read through lists that have had moderate success. One thing I've noticed, though, is that none of them run discard. Can someone explain why that is the case? Is it because T1 is "always" a T1 Delver of Secrets or T1 Serum Visions? Or is there something more to it? Considering how powerful discard is (information and pseudo removal-wise) I'm just surprised to not see any in the 60 or the SB. Thanks!
Hey all, first time poster in this thread. I've been wanting to tinker with Grixis Delver in Modern for some time now, so I'm happy to read through lists that have had moderate success. One thing I've noticed, though, is that none of them run discard. Can someone explain why that is the case? Is it because T1 is "always" a T1 Delver of Secrets or T1 Serum Visions? Or is there something more to it? Considering how powerful discard is (information and pseudo removal-wise) I'm just surprised to not see any in the 60 or the SB. Thanks!
Although some lists DO include discard (anything with death's shadow), generally I would say discard is not a very good tempo play; you sacrifice a card, to take away the opponents best card. Delver prefers to draw cards and cost the opponent resources by slowing them down with counter spells. A well timed counter spell or removal spell will cost the opponent the turn AND a card.
You can also take away their turn 2 or whatever with a turn 1 discard. The most recent delver lists that made top 8 in major events had 3-4 IoKs in them. Im running 3 right now and i'm very happy since it makes control/burn a better match up for me.
I have been working on a GB Rock build, and have been testing Kitesail Freebooter. The guy is great in the deck. Great early game opener. Its definitely a tempo play. It got me thinking...I used to play delver before Tasigur existed. Is kitesail a tempo card that delver could use? His evasion fits the delver play style and IMO is what really pushes the card. Thinking of a grixis delver build with him in it. Delver would probably be good in my meta as well. Struggling with my midrange builds at the moment. Lots of big decks in my meta, Eldrazi, Scapeshift, Tron, etc.
TL/DR: Is Delver still a tempo deck? Or is it more midrangy these days? And thoughts on kitesail freebooter to support tempo play?
I have been working on a GB Rock build, and have been testing Kitesail Freebooter. The guy is great in the deck. Great early game opener. Its definitely a tempo play. It got me thinking...I used to play delver before Tasigur existed. Is kitesail a tempo card that delver could use? His evasion fits the delver play style and IMO is what really pushes the card. Thinking of a grixis delver build with him in it. Delver would probably be good in my meta as well. Struggling with my midrange builds at the moment. Lots of big decks in my meta, Eldrazi, Scapeshift, Tron, etc.
TL/DR: Is Delver still a tempo deck? Or is it more midrangy these days? And thoughts on kitesail freebooter to support tempo play?
It is difficult to explain how delver is different from mid-range, other than to say we win by virtual card advantage and not ramping to larger threats like a mid-range deck. There are a number of articles on virtual card advantage if googled, that are an interesting read. Every time we wipe away an opponents resource at instant speed, it's like they never had a turn, and we gained another draw; remand is a super good example of this.
Kitesail has a good effect, evasive, on a stick, but what do you take out for it? If you run discard, I suppose that, but kitesail has to take early game removal or disruption, keeping in mind, they are almost guaranteed to get the card back. I don't run discard, I'm happier with counterspells. If someone has used it, hopefully they can report back.
You can also take away their turn 2 or whatever with a turn 1 discard. The most recent delver lists that made top 8 in major events had 3-4 IoKs in them. Im running 3 right now and i'm very happy since it makes control/burn a better match up for me.
I agree discard is good against those match-ups. Depends on your meta. In other match-ups, those later game kozileks hurt; I hate having dead cards and as luck would have it, I seem to always draw them when I don't need them.
I have been having great success with the following build. I did poorly at my last event (lcq), but that was more due to my opponent topdecking the perfect answer than the deck underperforming. For instance, I had my 5c humans opponent locked out of Mana under a blood moon with a Tasigur against an empty board. He was at 14 life. I got him to 2, but the turn after I resolved blood moon, he was able to topdeck an aether vial two turns in a row and stabilized. I had electrolyze and kommand in hand, so if I drew a bolt, an island, or a swamp, I would have won. These type of clutch topdecks happened all day and it was just bad beats.
Chart a course is phenomenal. Absolutely a powerhouse and should be played as a 2-of, minimum.
I wasn't taking notes so a full match report would be tough, but here are the highlights:
VS Affinity;
Lost the die roll and scooped on G1 turn 1 against the Affinity Godhand - memnite thopter vault skirge and steel overseer on the board T1. I have no 1 mana removal, am gripping a Delver, Serum and Terminate. Scoop to conceal info.
After boarding in Ceremonious rejections and Engineered Explosives, I proceed to crush games 2 and 3 with my cheap removals and counters. Anything short of a god hand is definitely easy with a full set of Fatal pushes, bolts and snaps. Ceremonious rejection is also strong here letting me counter threats on a cheap 1 mana while I play my own clocks.
MVP: Ceremonious Rejection, Fatal Push, Snapcasters
VS 8rack;
I get lucky in G1, he emptied my hand but drew no racks and my 3/2 flier finishes the game.
G2, I resolve an AV while beating with tasigur. Unable to empty my hand and faced with a clock, 8rack dies.
MVP: AV
VS Jund;
Only 2 particular things stood out; resolving 2 Ancestral Visions, basically drowning the opp in card advantage and Claim // Fame totally making LOTV look weak. The play was: Claim and snap in hand, no instant worth snapcasting in GY (theres a bunch of lands, snap, scour and serum iirc). Opp drops Lily, upticks to 4. I discard snap. Untap, draw land, lay the land. Claim the snap I discarded, snap targets serum visions; aftermath Fame my snap, beat for 4 and kill Lily, flashback the serum visions to put a card back in my hand and scry 2. Cards spent: 1. Mana spent: 4. Got a 2/1 body on the board, killed lily, drew a card and scryed 2. So much value i cannot even
MVP: AV, Claim // Fame
VS UB Faeries
Faeries need something to push them to viability, they really do. Bitterblossom seems troublesome at first but as long as I have a cheap tasigur they need to chump every turn, and I protect him from their Go for the Throats (their fatal pushes cant hit him) with Squalls that make the bitterblossom clock run even faster, I'm gold. Later on, the creeping tarpits threaten to do something but by then the bitterblossom has put him in bolt-snap-bolt range. Even resolving 2 AV in G1 doesn't help the fae. Postboard, my own AV come in and its more of the same.
MVP: Tasigur, countersquall.
VS UW Control
This was probably the stickiest match up. My mana came under attack at many stages of the game, and it was not uncommon to have only 1 red mana to work with, or momentarily be out a color. AVs were definitely useful in this MU for either card advantage or force the opponent to tap out. The UW list wasn't running AV but Search for Azcanta instead; my observation was that Search did a lot of work but too late. For instance, my resolved Death's Majesty was going to win me the game but Azcanta helped find him a Detention Sphere - BUT I already had a snap and 2 zombie tokens on the board. The sideboard Dispels of course came in and did good work, replacing the terminates and 1 push which had few targets (I kept 3 pushes for celestial colonnades). In the end, the card advantage provided by Death's Majesty and AV carried the match in G2 and G3. Without these grinders, I lost G1 to Gideon Trials + emblem backed up by Jace Architect and a slew of Supreme Verdicts. Vendilion Clique pulled some weight in one of the games as well, bottoming a Gids and forcing a verdict (he couldn't find a path to exile!).
MVP: Death's Majesty, Dispel, AV
I didn't get to -3 DM that day. There were snaps I could have brought back, but the circumstances called for a token army to beat around wall of omens, so I wanted to get to ultimate loyalty.
I'm not sure I want to play without Delvers now, at most time I felt like my early threats were really important for closing, and I don't want manlands in a format where I have to practically use every single mana every turn just to stay in the game. Its cool to become a control deck after boarding, though.
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I see nearly 0 Opt in your lists, but Thought Scour. The Mill 2 is really better than Scry 1 ?
Thanks <3
Those larger finishers are better in the UR tempo decks, with delve, tasigur, the golden fang and gurmag angler come out a lot faster (see my response on thought scour).
Haven't used chart a course in delver, but it's a house in faeries. My would guess is that it would not be very good, since delver is a tempo deck, our hands are often full already. Chart a course would have to replace a counter spell or removal, which are way more important.
The mill 2 gives resources for delve threats and snapcaster mage. opt is good at making your sideboard more effective, as it 'reduces' deck size, but again, what are you taking out for it?
I tryed Ryan's "Delverless grixis delver" list, and it felt really weird to me. I guess it may be the meta, I was playing in the friendly league, the 4 snares sounded good only in a few matchups (affinity), and snares/vendilion got sided out a lot. I missed the delvers, and sometimes the overloading on removal didn't save me, while an early threat would have. I felt like it tried to get to a grindy stage, but with only snaps/kcommand as card advantage. Could be good in some metas, probably is very good against DS (didn't play against it), infect (heh), etc.
Nah, Delver is MVP in GDS so I'm skeptical about whether the delverless 20 land list is better against it. A 3/2 flier beating down while you keep shadows off the board with 4 pushes 4 snaps and 3 terminates is a steady route to victory. I enjoy playing the control game as much as the delver mode, but the current meta demands that we clock a little more consistently. I usually want to use my turn 1 playing a threat.
Just for you guys not to feel lost, I brought this discussion from grixis control since it was leaning towards grixis delver and I think it wouldn't be cool with people there to post it there, so:
Yeah Marc, I agree. I haven't played for 2 weeks when I started back last weekend, and grixis delver felt amazing. I won 2 leagues 5-0 in a row with it, and personally I think Delver kinda gets your game controlled, since with a more controlish deck you have to try getting the board 100% clear, and with some threat you can afford to leave some, if your clock is faster.
I see nearly 0 Opt in your lists, but Thought Scour. The Mill 2 is really better than Scry 1 ?
Thanks <3
In regards to serpent or reveler, I agree 100% on burningeffigy. About the other questions, I've been testing with opt for some time, and it's AMAZING. It's not just about what it does, but mainly about when. Thought scour is a good magic card for this deck, no doubt about it. But what makes it also great is that it's instant-speed. It lets you leave up mana for counters. If this deck ran discard over counters, I think it wouldn't be too great. In the beginning of the game, it's not unusual passing T1 with mana up for spell snare/bolt, and in case you don't have to use them, opt or thought scour. That mana in the first turn is something we don't want to waste, and also we don't want to be left unprotected. It could be worse in a UR delver with swiftspear/guide, which are good T1 plays. But here we got only delver, which will be there only abour 40% of the time (44 if I'm not mistaken).
One thing you have to keep in mind, is that you can cast it to scry to the bottom the bad card you revealed with delver. It came up A LOT. I really don't recall how my list was before opt (with only 8 cantrips), but I assure you it's better now. Still, I think the GY feeding from thought scour is more relevant for the beginning of the game (besides, it can do a lot of things opt can do: cast instant speed, draw a card you saw from the serum visions and you need now, and scry the bad card from delver TO THE GRAVEYARD, which is even better).
I've played 4 leagues this week. The first and second leagues I made 3-2 and 5-0 without chart a course and pyromancer. The other one I tried like that when I saw PyroDelver's comment. I'm not sure why I decided to put YP AND change that on the same league, I guess I was changing vendilion clique for something that would be at least good (YP and cut some other 2 things I don't recall right now).
Pyromancer has been the same as before. The fragile threat that left unresolved can run with games. I've been enjoying it, but I don't think I enjoy 14 creatures, maybe cut one of them. But definitely better than Vendilion Clique. I'd recommend running 2.
Chart a Course has been... weird. Usually you don't want to spend your first turns of the game casting a do-nothing spell, since we are grixis... Delver! BUT the raw card advantage is very cool. The downside hasn't been much of a downside, since I usually cast it longer in the game, when I don't need too many lands and end up discarding them. I guess I'd run 1 of it MB, and maybe replace painful truths with it.
Truths is almost impossible to cast back with snap (due to the 5 mana requirement and 6 damage total for both castings), it's often a bad card to play on the draw even against midrange/aggro decks (I dare you playing painful truths on the draw turn 3 or 4 against affinity and winning the game), and the extra mana AND 3 life for 1 extra card really don't compensate.
The deck is really good against combo the way it is now (flooded with disruption + early threats post-sideboard), against aggro the maindeck is cool and against control and midrange it's kinda ok, and it gets better after sideboarding. The problem is that against midrange decks, delver often isn't fast enough.
Anyway, all things considered I think I'd play something like this:
19 lands
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
2 Young Pyromancer
-1 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur
1 Gurmag Angler
Oh, and one more thing. When you play a lot of cantrips, your deck gets "smaller". With this list I was able to get only cards that are really relevant after sideboarding in every matchup I played. And you can always cut some cantrips after sideboarding, since your deck will be more directed, and need less card selection (as there will be more relevant cards for the matchup).
I see nearly 0 Opt in your lists, but Thought Scour. The Mill 2 is really better than Scry 1 ?
Thanks <3
RE: Cryptic Serpent
The "late game only" clause on this one is the killer. With Tasigur I can play him T2 consistently, and Delver is almost always a T1 player. And even if I do cast this guy for UU, a vanilla 6/5 in the late game is pretty disappointing, not to mention he's a nonbo with Tasigur, and Tasigur offers early game beats and late game CA, so if it were to come down to Tas or Serpent, it'd have to be the Sultai Khan.
RE: Bedlam reveler
I've tested this and its good, but it also suffers from "late game only", and likewise is nonbo with Tas. Can it replace Tas? For the late game, yes. However, the inability to work in the early game meant Tasigur continued to be my fatty of choice.
RE: Chart a Course
I know some players have been singing its praises, and I think it boils down to whether you're a proactive or reactive player. I like leaving mana up. This means my card draw of choice (if I'm going to have it at all) is AV. Swinging for 3 on turn 2 and then spending 2 mana to draw 2 sounds OK, but in this meta turn 2 is where baral is played. If a queller eats your Chart a Course its going to feel terribad. Overall, 2 mana for 2 is a decent deal, but I wouldn't recommend it unless your list is very proactive with Discard and lilies in the main. It certainly doesn't play well with countersqualls and leaks, which is what I'm doing.
RE: Opt vs Thought Scour
There is no competition here - Scour every time. I'd sooner swap Serum Visions for Opt, since at least the argument can be made that you can hold up Spell Snare T1 on the draw, and Opt if the opponent doesn't do anything you can snare, bolt or push (or worth reacting to). However, T1 delver, T2 Serum Visions and hold up a mana while setting up for Delver if he didn't flip is a very powerful sequence and I'm not ready to give that up.
Never drop thought scour. It does too much work and synergizes with every threat in the deck - mana for tasigur, scouring something you peeked at with Delver's trigger and do not wish to draw, snapcaster targets. Just an interesting note - Thought Scour has locked me out of black by milling my Swamp and Watery Grave, and a second Thought Scour hit my Blood Crypt. I know, its crazy. But it makes a good story. And I also learnt that I should make sure to fetch before I scour.
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so I've been thinking of possibly going this route with Modern. I play BUG Delver in Legacy and I love it. But what I imagined for Grixis Delver is not even close to what everyone is running modern. Without free ways to protect Delver (i.e. Force of Will and Daze) it's almost impossible for you to drop him on 1. You are just walking into a kill spell. I feel the way to mitigate this is to run discard spells, that way you can go turn 1 Thoughtseize or Inquisition, take the removal spell, play Delver on 2 and hope to have spell pierce or Spell snare in case they draw another removal spell or have multiples. The thing is, I notice almost no one is running hand disruption. Another idea I had was possibly not running the big delve dudes and running Bobs to keep your hand full of interaction. I've never played Delver in Modern, but in all honesty it just seems like a worse Death's Shadow. Someone please convince me lol. I want to like Delver.
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The whole point of Logic Knot is that it is versatile, with the drawback on requiring 2 blue mana. It can be used as a force spike early, Mana Leak mid-game, and counterspell late game. It has a flexibility that other 2 mana "counters" dont.
One aspect that you seem to be overlooking is its ability to coincide and compliment with tasigur. Sculpting your graveyard in long, grindy games is crucial, and the ability to delve away 5, or even 10 cards in the late game can be game changing.
I am under the belief that 4 or 5 delve spells are ideal, and the choice between murderous cut or logic knot is generally that 5th spell. Logic Knot gives you a hard counter while Murderous Cut gives you a Path to Exile.
But then again, I also think Young Pyromancer is underperforming, I've started with 4 copies, and I'm wondering if I should still run the 1 I am running. Was it a meta change or something I didn't get? A year ago (when I used to play it as a 4 of) pyromancer sounded very sweet when I played it.
I'm having 4 delver, 4 snapcaster, 2 anglers and 2 tasigurs as my creature base, but I don't really know what else to get, and only 12 creatures sound way too low. Maybe 1 lavamancer? It sound good, except for the excess of grave using, with already 4 snap, 4 delve creatures and 2 K.command.
V-clique is sideboard. Good for match-ups where you REALLY want to take their turn 3 bomb away (i.e. combo). Young Peezy is good, but essentially replaces v-clique. Depending on your meta you can main 1 or the other then sideboard additional Pyro's. Don`t worry too much on creature volume, you have lots of cards to control the game, go aggressive with DD (bolt/k-command), or get back dead critters (k-command).
2 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Watery Grave
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
Creatures 15
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Snare
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Disrupting Shoal
1 Fatal Push
1 Countersquall
2 Dismember
4 Opt
Sorceries 11
4 Serum Visions
3 Chart a Course
4 Thoughtseize
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dreadbore
1 Pyroclasm
2 Collective Brutality
Mostly I really wanted to test out chart a course and with the added card advantage I thought I could get away with running disrupting shoal. It's a great tempo swing and very surprising for opponents who are trying to kill your turn 1 delver or chalice you on the draw.
I would love some opinions on the creature suite and the hand creature counter spell ratios and choices. Is a more aggressive desist with more burn and monetary swiftspear better for a build like this and maybe dropping black? Could I shave a land? More counter spells? I'm rather be too delver but absolutely love the card and haven't played it in modern yet 😔 but there is nothing I like more than tempo decks and grixis Shadow is too mid-rangy for my ideal fun (plus young pyromancer is a pet card if mine.) Any thoughts and opinions are very welcome!
I'm a bit surprised you elected to revoke thought scour and the delve creature package since it's so powerful, but it does make you less graveyard reliant which is a plus! List certainly doesn't look bad! I'm not sure about the counterspells you chose but I'm not sure what I'd replace them with. What I am sure is that 2 dismembers and 1 push looks veeerrrryyyyy light on hard removal (exempting bolt). Might wanna add another push or a terminate or 2.
This is all theory craft ATM so it might not work but those are my main thoughts on those choices. I really struggled with balancing hand disruption, counter-magic, and removal and I don't feel strongly like I hit the right balance.
Thanks again for the reply everything helps 🙂
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Although some lists DO include discard (anything with death's shadow), generally I would say discard is not a very good tempo play; you sacrifice a card, to take away the opponents best card. Delver prefers to draw cards and cost the opponent resources by slowing them down with counter spells. A well timed counter spell or removal spell will cost the opponent the turn AND a card.
TL/DR: Is Delver still a tempo deck? Or is it more midrangy these days? And thoughts on kitesail freebooter to support tempo play?
It is difficult to explain how delver is different from mid-range, other than to say we win by virtual card advantage and not ramping to larger threats like a mid-range deck. There are a number of articles on virtual card advantage if googled, that are an interesting read. Every time we wipe away an opponents resource at instant speed, it's like they never had a turn, and we gained another draw; remand is a super good example of this.
Kitesail has a good effect, evasive, on a stick, but what do you take out for it? If you run discard, I suppose that, but kitesail has to take early game removal or disruption, keeping in mind, they are almost guaranteed to get the card back. I don't run discard, I'm happier with counterspells. If someone has used it, hopefully they can report back.
I agree discard is good against those match-ups. Depends on your meta. In other match-ups, those later game kozileks hurt; I hate having dead cards and as luck would have it, I seem to always draw them when I don't need them.
Chart a course is phenomenal. Absolutely a powerhouse and should be played as a 2-of, minimum.
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Spell Snare
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Chart a Course
2 Logic Knot
2 Terminate
3 Mana Leak
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants (25)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fatal Push
4 Thought Scour
3 Spell Snare
3 Terminate
3 Mana leak
2 Countersquall
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Serum Visions
1 Claim // Fame
Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Countersquall
2 Dispel
2 Collective Brutality
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Engineered Explosives
I wasn't taking notes so a full match report would be tough, but here are the highlights:
VS Affinity;
Lost the die roll and scooped on G1 turn 1 against the Affinity Godhand - memnite thopter vault skirge and steel overseer on the board T1. I have no 1 mana removal, am gripping a Delver, Serum and Terminate. Scoop to conceal info.
After boarding in Ceremonious rejections and Engineered Explosives, I proceed to crush games 2 and 3 with my cheap removals and counters. Anything short of a god hand is definitely easy with a full set of Fatal pushes, bolts and snaps. Ceremonious rejection is also strong here letting me counter threats on a cheap 1 mana while I play my own clocks.
MVP: Ceremonious Rejection, Fatal Push, Snapcasters
VS 8rack;
I get lucky in G1, he emptied my hand but drew no racks and my 3/2 flier finishes the game.
G2, I resolve an AV while beating with tasigur. Unable to empty my hand and faced with a clock, 8rack dies.
MVP: AV
VS Jund;
Only 2 particular things stood out; resolving 2 Ancestral Visions, basically drowning the opp in card advantage and Claim // Fame totally making LOTV look weak. The play was: Claim and snap in hand, no instant worth snapcasting in GY (theres a bunch of lands, snap, scour and serum iirc). Opp drops Lily, upticks to 4. I discard snap. Untap, draw land, lay the land. Claim the snap I discarded, snap targets serum visions; aftermath Fame my snap, beat for 4 and kill Lily, flashback the serum visions to put a card back in my hand and scry 2. Cards spent: 1. Mana spent: 4. Got a 2/1 body on the board, killed lily, drew a card and scryed 2. So much value i cannot even
MVP: AV, Claim // Fame
VS UB Faeries
Faeries need something to push them to viability, they really do. Bitterblossom seems troublesome at first but as long as I have a cheap tasigur they need to chump every turn, and I protect him from their Go for the Throats (their fatal pushes cant hit him) with Squalls that make the bitterblossom clock run even faster, I'm gold. Later on, the creeping tarpits threaten to do something but by then the bitterblossom has put him in bolt-snap-bolt range. Even resolving 2 AV in G1 doesn't help the fae. Postboard, my own AV come in and its more of the same.
MVP: Tasigur, countersquall.
VS UW Control
This was probably the stickiest match up. My mana came under attack at many stages of the game, and it was not uncommon to have only 1 red mana to work with, or momentarily be out a color. AVs were definitely useful in this MU for either card advantage or force the opponent to tap out. The UW list wasn't running AV but Search for Azcanta instead; my observation was that Search did a lot of work but too late. For instance, my resolved Death's Majesty was going to win me the game but Azcanta helped find him a Detention Sphere - BUT I already had a snap and 2 zombie tokens on the board. The sideboard Dispels of course came in and did good work, replacing the terminates and 1 push which had few targets (I kept 3 pushes for celestial colonnades). In the end, the card advantage provided by Death's Majesty and AV carried the match in G2 and G3. Without these grinders, I lost G1 to Gideon Trials + emblem backed up by Jace Architect and a slew of Supreme Verdicts. Vendilion Clique pulled some weight in one of the games as well, bottoming a Gids and forcing a verdict (he couldn't find a path to exile!).
MVP: Death's Majesty, Dispel, AV
I didn't get to -3 DM that day. There were snaps I could have brought back, but the circumstances called for a token army to beat around wall of omens, so I wanted to get to ultimate loyalty.
I'm not sure I want to play without Delvers now, at most time I felt like my early threats were really important for closing, and I don't want manlands in a format where I have to practically use every single mana every turn just to stay in the game. Its cool to become a control deck after boarding, though.
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Those larger finishers are better in the UR tempo decks, with delve, tasigur, the golden fang and gurmag angler come out a lot faster (see my response on thought scour).
Haven't used chart a course in delver, but it's a house in faeries. My would guess is that it would not be very good, since delver is a tempo deck, our hands are often full already. Chart a course would have to replace a counter spell or removal, which are way more important.
The mill 2 gives resources for delve threats and snapcaster mage. opt is good at making your sideboard more effective, as it 'reduces' deck size, but again, what are you taking out for it?
Just for you guys not to feel lost, I brought this discussion from grixis control since it was leaning towards grixis delver and I think it wouldn't be cool with people there to post it there, so:
Yeah Marc, I agree. I haven't played for 2 weeks when I started back last weekend, and grixis delver felt amazing. I won 2 leagues 5-0 in a row with it, and personally I think Delver kinda gets your game controlled, since with a more controlish deck you have to try getting the board 100% clear, and with some threat you can afford to leave some, if your clock is faster.
In regards to serpent or reveler, I agree 100% on burningeffigy. About the other questions, I've been testing with opt for some time, and it's AMAZING. It's not just about what it does, but mainly about when. Thought scour is a good magic card for this deck, no doubt about it. But what makes it also great is that it's instant-speed. It lets you leave up mana for counters. If this deck ran discard over counters, I think it wouldn't be too great. In the beginning of the game, it's not unusual passing T1 with mana up for spell snare/bolt, and in case you don't have to use them, opt or thought scour. That mana in the first turn is something we don't want to waste, and also we don't want to be left unprotected. It could be worse in a UR delver with swiftspear/guide, which are good T1 plays. But here we got only delver, which will be there only abour 40% of the time (44 if I'm not mistaken).
One thing you have to keep in mind, is that you can cast it to scry to the bottom the bad card you revealed with delver. It came up A LOT. I really don't recall how my list was before opt (with only 8 cantrips), but I assure you it's better now. Still, I think the GY feeding from thought scour is more relevant for the beginning of the game (besides, it can do a lot of things opt can do: cast instant speed, draw a card you saw from the serum visions and you need now, and scry the bad card from delver TO THE GRAVEYARD, which is even better).
The list I'm running is:
19 lands
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Terminate
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Countersquall
4 Thought Scour
3 Opt
3 Serum Visions
2 Chart a course
SB
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Countersquall
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
1 Painful Truths
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Blood Moon
1 By Force
1 Rise//Fall
I've played 4 leagues this week. The first and second leagues I made 3-2 and 5-0 without chart a course and pyromancer. The other one I tried like that when I saw PyroDelver's comment. I'm not sure why I decided to put YP AND change that on the same league, I guess I was changing vendilion clique for something that would be at least good (YP and cut some other 2 things I don't recall right now).
Pyromancer has been the same as before. The fragile threat that left unresolved can run with games. I've been enjoying it, but I don't think I enjoy 14 creatures, maybe cut one of them. But definitely better than Vendilion Clique. I'd recommend running 2.
Chart a Course has been... weird. Usually you don't want to spend your first turns of the game casting a do-nothing spell, since we are grixis... Delver! BUT the raw card advantage is very cool. The downside hasn't been much of a downside, since I usually cast it longer in the game, when I don't need too many lands and end up discarding them. I guess I'd run 1 of it MB, and maybe replace painful truths with it.
Truths is almost impossible to cast back with snap (due to the 5 mana requirement and 6 damage total for both castings), it's often a bad card to play on the draw even against midrange/aggro decks (I dare you playing painful truths on the draw turn 3 or 4 against affinity and winning the game), and the extra mana AND 3 life for 1 extra card really don't compensate.
The deck is really good against combo the way it is now (flooded with disruption + early threats post-sideboard), against aggro the maindeck is cool and against control and midrange it's kinda ok, and it gets better after sideboarding. The problem is that against midrange decks, delver often isn't fast enough.
Anyway, all things considered I think I'd play something like this:
19 lands
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
2 Young Pyromancer
-1 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Terminate
2 Spell Snare
+1 spell pierce
1 Spell Pierce
1 Countersquall
4 Thought Scour
3 Opt
+1 Opt
3 Serum Visions
1 Chart a course
-1 Chart a course
SB
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Countersquall
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
-1 Painful Truths
+1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Blood Moon
1 By Force
1 Rise//Fall
PS.: Spell pierce overperformed. I think I'll try the second copy. It also works pretty well with opt and thought scour.
RE: Cryptic Serpent
The "late game only" clause on this one is the killer. With Tasigur I can play him T2 consistently, and Delver is almost always a T1 player. And even if I do cast this guy for UU, a vanilla 6/5 in the late game is pretty disappointing, not to mention he's a nonbo with Tasigur, and Tasigur offers early game beats and late game CA, so if it were to come down to Tas or Serpent, it'd have to be the Sultai Khan.
RE: Bedlam reveler
I've tested this and its good, but it also suffers from "late game only", and likewise is nonbo with Tas. Can it replace Tas? For the late game, yes. However, the inability to work in the early game meant Tasigur continued to be my fatty of choice.
RE: Chart a Course
I know some players have been singing its praises, and I think it boils down to whether you're a proactive or reactive player. I like leaving mana up. This means my card draw of choice (if I'm going to have it at all) is AV. Swinging for 3 on turn 2 and then spending 2 mana to draw 2 sounds OK, but in this meta turn 2 is where baral is played. If a queller eats your Chart a Course its going to feel terribad. Overall, 2 mana for 2 is a decent deal, but I wouldn't recommend it unless your list is very proactive with Discard and lilies in the main. It certainly doesn't play well with countersqualls and leaks, which is what I'm doing.
RE: Opt vs Thought Scour
There is no competition here - Scour every time. I'd sooner swap Serum Visions for Opt, since at least the argument can be made that you can hold up Spell Snare T1 on the draw, and Opt if the opponent doesn't do anything you can snare, bolt or push (or worth reacting to). However, T1 delver, T2 Serum Visions and hold up a mana while setting up for Delver if he didn't flip is a very powerful sequence and I'm not ready to give that up.
Never drop thought scour. It does too much work and synergizes with every threat in the deck - mana for tasigur, scouring something you peeked at with Delver's trigger and do not wish to draw, snapcaster targets. Just an interesting note - Thought Scour has locked me out of black by milling my Swamp and Watery Grave, and a second Thought Scour hit my Blood Crypt. I know, its crazy. But it makes a good story. And I also learnt that I should make sure to fetch before I scour.
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