Hey folks, I'm curious about how you approach the Counters Company matchup. The matchup feels very winnable, but the match can swing dramatically in their favor if something slips through. I feel that being aggressive is the best solution, since they seem to outgrind us eventually. Collected Company is obviously their most important card, so countering that gets priority. How do you guys sideboard against them?
I'm conflicted on Dispel, Brutality and Anger of the Gods. Dispel only hits 8 cards in their deck, but 4 of those are their best card. Brutality's Duress and -2/-2 mode are always relevant versus them but the card can feel clunky at times. Then there's Anger, I thought I'd try swapping them for my 2 KCommands so I can hit Finks but that makes our grindyness worse. I'd definitely side in Thoughtseize and some Surgicals though.
I'd have to say that this deck is more like an alternate build of the Grixis Death's Shadow builds and isn't honestly much of Delver. Dark Confidant is just too risky in our deck. Revealing a Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Gurmag Angler in the traditional build would more likely kill us big time. Without them in your build, why have Thought Scour?
Question to those running Young Pyromancer: How often do you find yourself tapping out on turn 2 to play the dude? And when you do, what are some of the best signs to look for that it's safe? Only against entirely uninteractive decks like storm or Ad Nauseum or is this something I should be ok doing against other strategies that may run removal?
One of the things I seem to get stuck doing is holding one in my hand for too long to try and get guaranteed value off of it. Sometimes I do wait though, and I've spent my cantrips and bolts already so I have little gas to fuel the little firey dude or I'm just at a stage of the game where he doesn't seem like much of a threat now and I would rather hold up countermagic. Pyro has been fun, and when he's good he's awesome but I get stuck sometimes with when I should be casting him.
If I have two in my hand, I will jam one asap, into removal if need be.
Otherwise, i look to see what threats I have. If I have a resolved delver and my hand is mostly cantrips, I'll run her out. If I don't, I'll spend some cantrips to find the 3rd land to jam her plus cantrip/removal. If I have a Tasigur and no delver, I will jam her to eat the removal spell for tas, since I could very likely end up getting her back.
If she is your only threat, though, I'd hold her until you can get value or can cast her with protection against removal or counters, depending on the matchup. This deck is particularly weak to sweepers, so if you find that one resolved, don't play the second until you are ready to race by spamming cantrips.
why the discard mainboard and not more tempo oriented cards?
I asked myself the same question and cut them. After doing more research (specifically reading some higher level SCG articles), I realized that discard should be an "all or nothing" type of action. Considering that I only played two, it was very easy for me to take them out. When I compounded that thought with the fact that I prefer remand and other "counters" (not mana leak), I cut them without hesitation.
thanks for sharing your list and thoughts. I really like your list, except for the murderous cut (i just believe push is better) and the dreadbore. Gonna give the 3x remand a try. Im also curious how maindeck discard is working out for you, been toying with the idea, but i keep going back to my 7 counters.
18 lands is quite tight, i think i prefer 19, but maybe with the 3x remand, and the electrolyze, its manageable.
Would you be so kind to make a little sideboard guide(lines)
cheers, and thanks for sharing.
Hey mate, I changed my list to this after doing some more research, reading this thread (mostly older posts) and some more testing.
So, a couple of changes, I added an extra land and switched up the mana base. I currently have 17/13/13 for sources, but I am debating on changing the Sulfur Falls for another fetch land (either another blue or just another Bloodstained Mire). The mana base was too painful at 18 and getting stuck on two lands is a terrible feeling. Swapping out one Young Pyromancer for a Vendilion Clique is more of a personal choice, but I really like having "some" sort of information, and certain cards are hard to beat with this deck. Moving the Dreadbore to the sideboard allows me to play 24 instants with Serum Visions being the only main deck sorcery. I cut the discard for a Deprive and Logic Knot as they aren't noticeably more difficult to cast than Mana Leak and are far better against decks we struggle with; Tron and Spaceshift. For the sideboard, cutting down Disdainful Strokes wasn't easy, but my local meta does not have as many "big mana decks" as online, but still enough for the card to be useful.
My plan is to be able to interact for turns 1-3 (we almost always lose game 1), try and stick a threat turn 3-4 and then ride that threat out. I cut some of my 3 drops for cheaper spells, essentially trading our normal 2-1 or 3-1 in Kolaghan's Command and Electrolyze for Collective Brutality and then Terminate and a delver of secrets for counter magic.
UW Control:
I have not faced this matchup very much. I would imagine bringing in 1 or 2 dispel and two 2 Countersquall for a fatal push, terminate, and electrolyze is the play here. Maybe even a 2nd terminate or Murderous Cut for a Disdainful Stroke.
Why the Brutality? We aren't beating a "resolved" Prime Time, so removal does not look like our friend. Brutality can strip a ramp spell or spaceshift, and deal two damage. My main goal here is to stick a threat and get a clock going ASAP. Disdainful Stroke hits Hour of Promise, Spaceshift, and Primetime.
I like to keep in my Fatal Push's to take out their creatures. Kolaghan's Command doesn't do enough in this matchup, and I would rather have counter magic. I tend to be very active with my counters, even trading one for one early with them can set them back far enough where they can't go off. Pay attention to their graveyard and hand size.
You need to Spell Snare chalice on two. You need counter magic on two for this matchup, which makes playing on the draw difficult, which is one of the reasons for the Smash to Smithereens.
GDS
I love this matchup for some reason. One, they do a lot of damage to themselves. Two, we have chump blockers and the same size creatures. Three, we have fliers. Four, we have a ton of cheap interaction. Five, we have a ton of reach. I don't know how many times I have bolt-snap-bolt and then bolt again and deal 9+ damage to close out a game here. I always try to keep heavy draw/filtering hands or a hand with Nihil Spellbomb. Remanding a delve threat feels great. Honestly, you don't need to sideboard here, but you can put in Nihil Spellbomb depending on your list.
Affinity
-1 Vendillion Clique
-2 Terminate
+1 Ceremonious Rejection
+1 Collective Brutality
+1 Smash to Smithereens
Yeah, this is an interesting one. When your removal lines up it feels great. I just try to keep them off of Cranial Plating and then try and race, which is actually rather each given our interaction and larger fliers. Electrolyze and Kolaghan's Command are always a 2-1. Make sure to keep interaction-heavy hands post-board. I like Brutality because it helps race and kills a majority of their threats while giving us bonus health. Rejection should be obvious, and Smash helps us race as well.
Side Note: I have my first "big" event this weekend and I am super excited. I have been jamming 1-2 leagues per day online and constantly changing 2-4 cards, but I am set with this 75 for the event. It is a PPTQ at the biggest store in the Twin Cities area so I expect there to be a big turnout. Unfortunately I don't have time to get extra practice in tomorrow or friday but I am feeling confident nonetheless.
2-0 Jeskai Nahiri, 0-2 GW Sigarda, 0-2 Affinity. No Fatal Push for me
Any tip for the Affinity matchup? How to play the first couple of turns? What to board out/in? I'm really terrible against Affinity. I feel like it's a bad matchup everytime!
2-0 Jeskai Nahiri, 0-2 GW Sigarda, 0-2 Affinity. No Fatal Push for me
Any tip for the Affinity matchup? How to play the first couple of turns? What to board out/in? I'm really terrible against Affinity. I feel like it's a bad matchup everytime!
Matchup is tough (but not unbeatable) because they spew out so much so fast then drop their pump dudes and its an uphill battle. Forked Bolt, Electrolyze and other 2 for 1 spells help a lot. A lot of their dudes only has 1 toughness. Izzet Staticaster is huge here. EE is super good here since that's pretty much the only way to get rid of Etched Champion for us. Spell snare is great in the matchup as well. I would try to focus my energy into playing the control game in the beginning. Try to outgrind him. Once he's in topdeck or you feel it's a good spot, the go into attack mode and close the game. But if the Champion hits the board it instantly becomes a race since we can't get rid of it.
I agree with focusing into playing control game in the beginning. I sided out Delvers for more hate, so basically becoming a Grixis Control deck. Is siding out Delver a good thing? I never want to play Delver/Serum T1 if I have Snare/Ceromonious.
I agree with focusing into playing control game in the beginning. I sided out Delvers for more hate, so basically becoming a Grixis Control deck. Is siding out Delver a good thing? I never want to play Delver/Serum T1 if I have Snare/Ceromonious.
That's a good question. I don't think I ever sided out Delvers in any situation. I always kept them in there for the quick beats. I could be wrong though. I never thought to side them out until I saw people on this thread suggesting so.
I usually sided out my thoughscours. I could be wrong for siding out the thoughscours though.
I agree with focusing into playing control game in the beginning. I sided out Delvers for more hate, so basically becoming a Grixis Control deck. Is siding out Delver a good thing? I never want to play Delver/Serum T1 if I have Snare/Ceromonious.
That's a good question. I don't think I ever sided out Delvers in any situation. I always kept them in there for the quick beats. I could be wrong though. I never thought to side them out until I saw people on this thread suggesting so.
I usually sided out my thoughscours. I could be wrong for siding out the thoughscours though.
I only side delver out in mirror matches (usually only on the draw). I used to side them out against grixis and UWx control decks when I had ancestral vision in the SB, but don't anymore.
I wouldn't cut thoughtscours out entirely, but trimming a copy or two is okay if you can't find other cuts. I like to trim flex slots (spell pierce and shadow of doubt) first. Next to go is land 19, terminate 3, and (very rarely) snapcaster 4. Bring in 3x ceremonious and a Staticaster. Holding delver until turn 2-3 is perfectly fine against affinity. Although I'll jam it T1 if I have hand heavy on removal and light on counter magic
If you're playing 7 sorcery speed creatures that cost 2 cmc its no wonder you feel the tension for leaving mana up. You're basically playing blue jund here, in which case, is young P better than Goyf? Is LotV better than JVP?
Draw-go isn't for everyone, but one thing is for sure; to enjoy draw-go your threats need to match that spirit and not give you tension. This is why the successful counterspell based Delver lists run Delve threats, because they typically cost 1 mana, leaving the rest of your land up and waiting. At worst, you can play Flash threats like Vendilion Clique. When your typical hand demands you invest 2 mana NOW to enjoy having either a planeswalker or a young pyro that will give value for spells AFTERWARD, it is no wonder there is a tension in your decision tree.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
you don't want to tap out at 3 turn for 2/2, even with flying/prowess. if you want to play additional budget threats, i guess, even Stormchaser Mage or Nimble Obstructionist would be better, let alone Young Pyromancer.
what do u guys think about the deck?do you like 20 lands?or should i go to 19?Moreover what do you think about the 2 cliques mainboard?
Depends on your meta. Clique is good against certain decks. Noticed no young pyromancer in the main or sideboard; again, meta dependent. Don't like electrolyze in favour of a fatal push; if you need more tempo, why not more remand? I prefer 19 lands, the extra spell is super important and since delver runs lots of draw and cheap spells, I find it gets away with it. It is often ok to keep a 1 land opening hand.
Well, well, a new cantrip of interest. Opt is getting a reprint in Ixalan, bringing smiles to blue players like ourselves. The question is where does it slide into the deck? Replacement for visions or for scour? Visions sets up our delvers better and thought scour enables our fast Tasigurs or fish. But opt is clearly a fantastic addition so surely it goes somewhere...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
RESULT : 3-0-0
ROUND 1: UG Infect // 2-0.
ROUND 2: Ad Nauseam // 2-1, lost G1.
ROUND 3: Abzan Midrange // 2-1, lost G1.
Deck is really great at my LGS. Although, I didn't see much YPs and Thoughtseize tonight, I'm happy that this list is working well for me.
// 14 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer
// 19 Instant
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
2 Fatal Push
1 Murderous cut
2 Spell Snare
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
2 Flooded Strand
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
// 8 Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dismember
1 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Negate
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Crumble to Dust
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Dispel
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Spell Pierce
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Thoughtseize
I'm conflicted on Dispel, Brutality and Anger of the Gods. Dispel only hits 8 cards in their deck, but 4 of those are their best card. Brutality's Duress and -2/-2 mode are always relevant versus them but the card can feel clunky at times. Then there's Anger, I thought I'd try swapping them for my 2 KCommands so I can hit Finks but that makes our grindyness worse. I'd definitely side in Thoughtseize and some Surgicals though.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Death's Shadow
4 Dark Confidant
Spells
2 Spell Snare
4 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Remand
4 Serum Visions
3 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Bloodstained Mire
Thoughts? I really like bob and shadow together
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
I'd have to say that this deck is more like an alternate build of the Grixis Death's Shadow builds and isn't honestly much of Delver. Dark Confidant is just too risky in our deck. Revealing a Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Gurmag Angler in the traditional build would more likely kill us big time. Without them in your build, why have Thought Scour?
One of the things I seem to get stuck doing is holding one in my hand for too long to try and get guaranteed value off of it. Sometimes I do wait though, and I've spent my cantrips and bolts already so I have little gas to fuel the little firey dude or I'm just at a stage of the game where he doesn't seem like much of a threat now and I would rather hold up countermagic. Pyro has been fun, and when he's good he's awesome but I get stuck sometimes with when I should be casting him.
If I have two in my hand, I will jam one asap, into removal if need be.
Otherwise, i look to see what threats I have. If I have a resolved delver and my hand is mostly cantrips, I'll run her out. If I don't, I'll spend some cantrips to find the 3rd land to jam her plus cantrip/removal. If I have a Tasigur and no delver, I will jam her to eat the removal spell for tas, since I could very likely end up getting her back.
If she is your only threat, though, I'd hold her until you can get value or can cast her with protection against removal or counters, depending on the matchup. This deck is particularly weak to sweepers, so if you find that one resolved, don't play the second until you are ready to race by spamming cantrips.
I asked myself the same question and cut them. After doing more research (specifically reading some higher level SCG articles), I realized that discard should be an "all or nothing" type of action. Considering that I only played two, it was very easy for me to take them out. When I compounded that thought with the fact that I prefer remand and other "counters" (not mana leak), I cut them without hesitation.
Hey mate, I changed my list to this after doing some more research, reading this thread (mostly older posts) and some more testing.
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Young Pyromancer
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Gurmag Angler
Instants (24)
4x Thought Scour
2x Spell Snare
2x Fatal Push
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Remand
3x Terminate
1x Logic Knot
1x Deprive
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Electrolyze
1x Murderous Cut
4x Serum Visions
Mana Base (19)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Watery Grave
1x Steam Vents
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x mountain
1x Spirebluff Canal
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Countersquall
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Dreadbore
1x Smash to Smithereens
So, a couple of changes, I added an extra land and switched up the mana base. I currently have 17/13/13 for sources, but I am debating on changing the Sulfur Falls for another fetch land (either another blue or just another Bloodstained Mire). The mana base was too painful at 18 and getting stuck on two lands is a terrible feeling. Swapping out one Young Pyromancer for a Vendilion Clique is more of a personal choice, but I really like having "some" sort of information, and certain cards are hard to beat with this deck. Moving the Dreadbore to the sideboard allows me to play 24 instants with Serum Visions being the only main deck sorcery. I cut the discard for a Deprive and Logic Knot as they aren't noticeably more difficult to cast than Mana Leak and are far better against decks we struggle with; Tron and Spaceshift. For the sideboard, cutting down Disdainful Strokes wasn't easy, but my local meta does not have as many "big mana decks" as online, but still enough for the card to be useful.
Sideboard:
Burn:
-1 Kolaghan's Command
-3 Terminate
-1 Delver of Secrets
-1 Electrolyze
+2 Countersquall
+2 Dispel
+2 Collective Brutality
My plan is to be able to interact for turns 1-3 (we almost always lose game 1), try and stick a threat turn 3-4 and then ride that threat out. I cut some of my 3 drops for cheaper spells, essentially trading our normal 2-1 or 3-1 in Kolaghan's Command and Electrolyze for Collective Brutality and then Terminate and a delver of secrets for counter magic.
UW Control:
I have not faced this matchup very much. I would imagine bringing in 1 or 2 dispel and two 2 Countersquall for a fatal push, terminate, and electrolyze is the play here. Maybe even a 2nd terminate or Murderous Cut for a Disdainful Stroke.
-1 fatal push
-1 terminate
-1 electrolyze
+1 dispel
+2 Countersquall
TitanShift
Pray
-2 Fatal Push
-2 terminate
-1 Murderous Cut
-1 Electrolyze
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Countersquall
Why the Brutality? We aren't beating a "resolved" Prime Time, so removal does not look like our friend. Brutality can strip a ramp spell or spaceshift, and deal two damage. My main goal here is to stick a threat and get a clock going ASAP. Disdainful Stroke hits Hour of Promise, Spaceshift, and Primetime.
UR Storm
-3 Terminate
-1 Electrolyze
-1 Murderous Cut
-2 Kolaghan's Command
+2 countersquall
+2 Dispel
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
I like to keep in my Fatal Push's to take out their creatures. Kolaghan's Command doesn't do enough in this matchup, and I would rather have counter magic. I tend to be very active with my counters, even trading one for one early with them can set them back far enough where they can't go off. Pay attention to their graveyard and hand size.
Eldrazi Tron
Pray
-1 Electrolyze
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Ceremonious Rejection
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+1 Smash to Smithereens
You need to Spell Snare chalice on two. You need counter magic on two for this matchup, which makes playing on the draw difficult, which is one of the reasons for the Smash to Smithereens.
GDS
I love this matchup for some reason. One, they do a lot of damage to themselves. Two, we have chump blockers and the same size creatures. Three, we have fliers. Four, we have a ton of cheap interaction. Five, we have a ton of reach. I don't know how many times I have bolt-snap-bolt and then bolt again and deal 9+ damage to close out a game here. I always try to keep heavy draw/filtering hands or a hand with Nihil Spellbomb. Remanding a delve threat feels great. Honestly, you don't need to sideboard here, but you can put in Nihil Spellbomb depending on your list.
Affinity
-1 Vendillion Clique
-2 Terminate
+1 Ceremonious Rejection
+1 Collective Brutality
+1 Smash to Smithereens
Yeah, this is an interesting one. When your removal lines up it feels great. I just try to keep them off of Cranial Plating and then try and race, which is actually rather each given our interaction and larger fliers. Electrolyze and Kolaghan's Command are always a 2-1. Make sure to keep interaction-heavy hands post-board. I like Brutality because it helps race and kills a majority of their threats while giving us bonus health. Rejection should be obvious, and Smash helps us race as well.
Side Note: I have my first "big" event this weekend and I am super excited. I have been jamming 1-2 leagues per day online and constantly changing 2-4 cards, but I am set with this 75 for the event. It is a PPTQ at the biggest store in the Twin Cities area so I expect there to be a big turnout. Unfortunately I don't have time to get extra practice in tomorrow or friday but I am feeling confident nonetheless.
2-0 Jeskai Nahiri, 0-2 GW Sigarda, 0-2 Affinity. No Fatal Push for me
Any tip for the Affinity matchup? How to play the first couple of turns? What to board out/in? I'm really terrible against Affinity. I feel like it's a bad matchup everytime!
Matchup is tough (but not unbeatable) because they spew out so much so fast then drop their pump dudes and its an uphill battle. Forked Bolt, Electrolyze and other 2 for 1 spells help a lot. A lot of their dudes only has 1 toughness. Izzet Staticaster is huge here. EE is super good here since that's pretty much the only way to get rid of Etched Champion for us. Spell snare is great in the matchup as well. I would try to focus my energy into playing the control game in the beginning. Try to outgrind him. Once he's in topdeck or you feel it's a good spot, the go into attack mode and close the game. But if the Champion hits the board it instantly becomes a race since we can't get rid of it.
That's a good question. I don't think I ever sided out Delvers in any situation. I always kept them in there for the quick beats. I could be wrong though. I never thought to side them out until I saw people on this thread suggesting so.
I usually sided out my thoughscours. I could be wrong for siding out the thoughscours though.
I only side delver out in mirror matches (usually only on the draw). I used to side them out against grixis and UWx control decks when I had ancestral vision in the SB, but don't anymore.
I wouldn't cut thoughtscours out entirely, but trimming a copy or two is okay if you can't find other cuts. I like to trim flex slots (spell pierce and shadow of doubt) first. Next to go is land 19, terminate 3, and (very rarely) snapcaster 4. Bring in 3x ceremonious and a Staticaster. Holding delver until turn 2-3 is perfectly fine against affinity. Although I'll jam it T1 if I have hand heavy on removal and light on counter magic
Draw-go isn't for everyone, but one thing is for sure; to enjoy draw-go your threats need to match that spirit and not give you tension. This is why the successful counterspell based Delver lists run Delve threats, because they typically cost 1 mana, leaving the rest of your land up and waiting. At worst, you can play Flash threats like Vendilion Clique. When your typical hand demands you invest 2 mana NOW to enjoy having either a planeswalker or a young pyro that will give value for spells AFTERWARD, it is no wonder there is a tension in your decision tree.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Depends on your meta. Clique is good against certain decks. Noticed no young pyromancer in the main or sideboard; again, meta dependent. Don't like electrolyze in favour of a fatal push; if you need more tempo, why not more remand? I prefer 19 lands, the extra spell is super important and since delver runs lots of draw and cheap spells, I find it gets away with it. It is often ok to keep a 1 land opening hand.