I played Vial Humans in recent tournaments and I wasn't happy because I had little choices in a lot of matchups and naming with Meddling Mage was usually a coin-flip that I have lost.
I prefer CoCo over Vial too
I'm not a fan of 2drop Thalia in CoCo lists though, especially at 21 lands. I also run 1 less dork. I'm nowhere near the same caliber of player as the author though so take that with a grain of salt
I prefer Anafenza over RiP too. Obviously she's more narrow as GY hate goes, but more broad in general and a solid above curve threat
I'm on vial for some time now and have had some games with it.
I like the vial list a lot more in the control-style matchups. We discussed Jeskai earlier, this is an example of one of those matchups. Maindeck is quite strong against those decks.
However, I don't like the deckbuilding and sideboard restrictions to be fair.
Also, against other aggro decks things get of the ground a little to slow with Vial, especially in the mirror.
I felt the CoCo deck gave me more options, though I do think a 5c version can be somewhat inconsistent.
Does anyone have any sort of sideboard guide for the Phantasmal Image version of the deck? I've been mostly playing a version with Mayor, but the PI version seems to be doing well, and is a little less straight forward as far as side boarding.
2) Phantasmal Image is great for every reason I used it before, so it's back, as a singleton. Cut Anafenza, the Foremost from the main. Been trying 4, gets awkward sometimes, and for reasons stated above, I don't want to make room for more.
3) Chalice of the Void is great versus Grixis and Jeskai type control decks and just breaks the new Living End deck. So it should be in the board, I'm on one for now.
4) We are very, if not, too heavy on three drop creatures in the sideboard and we realy need some two drop answers for decks like Burn. Arashin Cleric and Auriok Champion come to mind. Currently Kambal, Consul of Allocation is my only extra in that matchup.
5) Fringe decks are hard to beat. These are the matches where Meddling Mage is just mediocre. usually naming some type of removal spell in the colors of your opponents deck.
6) On the mana, even with 4 Horizon Canopy flooding can happen, Obviously. But I have been thinking along other lines. The mana base was very, VERY white heavy. I've tried to make it so that in most situations any combination of 2 lands on turn 2 and 3 lands on turn 3 can cast our t2 and t3 play's respectivily. Downside is our life total, but it might be done with fastlands too. Given we only even want to get to three lands.
the inclusion, Watery Grave alongside fetches. Not sure if the second Horizon Canopy should be a third Marsh Flats for extra thinning instead of drawing.
Casual results (some paper, some online):
Wins versus GB Tron, E-Tron, RW Humans, Humans Mirror, GW Company, Death and Taxes, Mardu Midrange, Jeskai, Ponza, Trough the Breach.
Loss versus Burn, GW Company (Fringe), Affinity, RB Storm (Waste Not), Jund
Especially Jund is VERY strong against us for having main deck answers to everything we can play against them.
Ancient Ziggurat is not great in multiples in your opener when we want to cast Aether Vial or some of our side tech. On the other hand it's great with Phantasmal Image.
Cutting one in favor of the third fetch solves both these problems. But will it lead to inconsistency?
Aether Vial seems a must, but we can win without drawing it, right? Is it an automatic loss drawing too many Vials? Drawing it too late is certainly not very useful when in top deck mode. Could the right number of Vial be 3 instead of 4?
Has Descendants' Path been explored in this deck? Dark Confidant seems to be the favored card draw engine for the tribe, but there are strong incentives to seriously consider Descendants' Path instead. Not only is it super hard to remove, but it's free mana (of any color) on top of card advantage. It won't kill you in the long run, and will filter out non-Human cards to the bottom deck. It's obviously no better than Aether Vial the turn you cast it, but it can take over the game if you top deck it in the mid or long game. Will it be that hard to cast a 2G spell given our mana base?
Nope. The plan with a Vial deck is to get one in your opening hand so you can have more threats onto the battlefield faster, and also get them at instant speed. If you play only 3, you lower the chances of having one in your opening hand.
Has Descendants' Path been explored in this deck?
It has not in this thread.
D's path is very slow at 3 cmc. You can't cast it via Ziggurat and you need a green source. To play this card, you have to rebuild your manabase from the scratch. You might want your early drops to be somewhat resilient or protected (Deft Duelist, Kytheon, Hero of Akros) so you're sure to trigger the enchantment ; maybe it's irrelevant. Your pay-off creatures might lean your list towards a more aggressive shell (maybe even a combo package). You also can't take advantage of Cavern of Souls uncounterable clause with that enchantment.
To me it's a combo card, and if not, it doesn't really fit the existing Coco and Vial shells. Feel free to work on it though !
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
You're probably right. I've only tested Descendants' Path a bit on XMage. It was a great card to take over wide boards, or to come back from a sweeper (hold a creature or two in you hand). It certainly was amazing with Hostage Taker (cast for free from the top deck, and all your mana is available to cast the exiled card).
I'm trying to explore new ideas for Humans... so, what about Huntmaster of the Fells in the SB vs Burn? Or Ninja of the Deep Hours to get some card advantage and bounce back Humans with ETB abilities?
About Phantasmal Image : naming Humans with Cavern of Souls and Unclaimed Territory makes it harder to cast, no?
what about Huntmaster of the Fells in the SB vs Burn
Against Burn you want a low cmc creature that gains you at least 3 life over the course of a game so it cancels at least one of your opponent's spell (Arashin Cleric, Auriok Champ, Lantern Scout, etc...). Huntmaster has a better impact against grindy decks because you put 2 creatures on the board (spot removal insurance), one of them is immune to Decay / unrevolted Push, and once you flip it, it becomes a real clock.
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Here you'd have to rebuild your manabase cause you can't get blue via Cavern / Territory for Ninjutsu and can't use Ziggurat either. I think the card is obsolete nowadays, the set up is complicated and the reward not powerful enough, since you used 2 mana to draw a card you might not be able to cast in the same turn. At least, Bob costs you no mana and is a sure card every turn.
About Phantasmal Image : naming Humans with Cavern of Souls and Unclaimed Territory makes it harder to cast, no?
Yup, and you have very few blue sources in the deck. You can play some copies though, but 4x is certainly too many. 2 is safe, 3 is already quite greedy. Make your own experience with the card !
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I played monowhite humans a lot last year and it was good until April 2017, where I was no longer able to win with it because of the change in the Meta.
I'm sort of waffling between this and Counters Company. I'm leaning towards Hoomans hoping that it can slow down Tron? There is TONS of Tron in my area. An "I win button" sure is appealing though!
In my recent games i've encountered and beat several Tron variants and I feel as it's one of the more favorable matchups for us.
Just don't let them resolve All is dust or Karn Liberated and you are solid.
I try to keep Vithian Renegades for Oblivion Stone and keep Reflector Mage for Wurmcoil Engine or it's tokens. A resolved one can be a pain though.
You'll need the disruptive part of your deck in this match. Booter, Mage and Big Thalia are MVP here!
I've not had a chance to play many games over the Christmas period, but this deck is still in slot#1 in my "grab on my way out the door" deckbox.
I've got a few questions for the thread as I haven't been keeping up on changes over the last couple of weeks (every modern diehard knows change is rapid and subtle in this format):
1) Kytheon. Considered running a singleton in the main. Seems good as a one-of maybe? What are people's thoughts on this.
2) hostage taker. I stuck two in my sideboard and haven't had the opportunity to cast them yet, or really get a feel for whether four mana is too much or not. Huntmaster was another option I've yet to try. I really like the text on both cards and feel that they could significantly boost any grindy matchups, but can anyone weigh in and let me know how either of these has played out for them in practice? Hostage taker particularly seems like a synergy-win in this deck performing a whole range of utilities as well as presenting a nice clock, but I could be underestimating how restrictive the cmc of 4 is for us.
3) Chalice of the void in the side; Chalice is a pet card of mine & before anyone even mentioned it for the humans deck I was brewing in that direction. I even used to run it in elves (4x cavern). I know I'll be testing this card heavily going forward but you guys will have results and insight I haven't yet had the opportunity to glean. What's your perspective on Chalice at the moment and what are the issues/stumble points I need to be aware of? E.g. Whether or not to side out vials when bringing in chalices; seems counter intuitive (vial helps play one drops through Chalice) but then how often do we keep a vial on one and how worse are our topdecks if we are running 8 artifacts rather than 4? See what I mean?
Cheers guys
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I've not had a chance to play many games over the Christmas period, but this deck is still in slot#1 in my "grab on my way out the door" deckbox.
I've got a few questions for the thread as I haven't been keeping up on changes over the last couple of weeks (every modern diehard knows change is rapid and subtle in this format):
Welcome back, there are a few new results on MTGtop8 regarding Humans. What strikes me is they all play the fetchless manabase, 4copies of Phantasmal Image and a sideboard with several silver bullets. I've never been a fan of this strategy. Maybe Phantasmal Image multiplies the total amount but still, you have to draw the one of first. I'm still on one copy.
1) Kytheon. Considered running a singleton in the main. Seems good as a one-of maybe? What are people's thoughts on this.
I might not see its potential, but i've never felt it's inclusion to be worth the try. What would you say is the role of kytheon in the deck?
2) hostage taker. I stuck two in my sideboard and haven't had the opportunity to cast them yet, or really get a feel for whether four mana is too much or not. Huntmaster was another option I've yet to try. I really like the text on both cards and feel that they could significantly boost any grindy matchups, but can anyone weigh in and let me know how either of these has played out for them in practice? Hostage taker particularly seems like a synergy-win in this deck performing a whole range of utilities as well as presenting a nice clock, but I could be underestimating how restrictive the cmc of 4 is for us.
I play a pair of Hostage Takers in standard and it's a great card when you are actually able to cast the taken creature. Either directly or the turn after and protect it. I consider it a 5 mana play because the problem is, it gets Fatal Push online and in modern it takes any other removal spell. When it gets destroyed immediately, you've wasted a whole turn, or ticked up Vial to 4, which is otherwise useless. Hoatage Taker one of those very low floor, very high ceiling cards with no inbetween. Tread with care.
3) Chalice of the void in the side; Chalice is a pet card of mine & before anyone even mentioned it for the humans deck I was brewing in that direction. I even used to run it in elves (4x cavern). I know I'll be testing this card heavily going forward but you guys will have results and insight I haven't yet had the opportunity to glean. What's your perspective on Chalice at the moment and what are the issues/stumble points I need to be aware of? E.g. Whether or not to side out vials when bringing in chalices; seems counter intuitive (vial helps play one drops through Chalice) but then how often do we keep a vial on one and how worse are our topdecks if we are running 8 artifacts rather than 4? See what I mean?
Cheers guys
Challice is great, I have one in the side for random 0 and 1 cmc spells in Affinity, Jeskai, Grixis and like yesterday, Bushwhacker aggro.
4 Phantasmal image has been nothing short of amazing. Getting more copies of thalia's lieutenant or reflector mage main board, plus the utility of copying your hatebears post board is very powerful. There have been countless situations in which I just wanted more of what I already had on board.
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So I went back to the CoCo version.
Now this article came out:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-road-to-finding-the-best-humans-list-in-modern/
Thoughts?
I'm not a fan of 2drop Thalia in CoCo lists though, especially at 21 lands. I also run 1 less dork. I'm nowhere near the same caliber of player as the author though so take that with a grain of salt
I prefer Anafenza over RiP too. Obviously she's more narrow as GY hate goes, but more broad in general and a solid above curve threat
I like the vial list a lot more in the control-style matchups. We discussed Jeskai earlier, this is an example of one of those matchups. Maindeck is quite strong against those decks.
However, I don't like the deckbuilding and sideboard restrictions to be fair.
Also, against other aggro decks things get of the ground a little to slow with Vial, especially in the mirror.
I felt the CoCo deck gave me more options, though I do think a 5c version can be somewhat inconsistent.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I've been tweaking my list somewhat, mainly manabase and ratios of various MD and SB cards.
A few observations.
1) A list without Mayor of Avabruck is not done in my book. Together with Aether Vial both Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck make for great battle tricks which help in the creature matchup's, sometimes taking Tarmogoyf and Reality Smasher by surprise.
2) Phantasmal Image is great for every reason I used it before, so it's back, as a singleton. Cut Anafenza, the Foremost from the main. Been trying 4, gets awkward sometimes, and for reasons stated above, I don't want to make room for more.
3) Chalice of the Void is great versus Grixis and Jeskai type control decks and just breaks the new Living End deck. So it should be in the board, I'm on one for now.
4) We are very, if not, too heavy on three drop creatures in the sideboard and we realy need some two drop answers for decks like Burn. Arashin Cleric and Auriok Champion come to mind. Currently Kambal, Consul of Allocation is my only extra in that matchup.
5) Fringe decks are hard to beat. These are the matches where Meddling Mage is just mediocre. usually naming some type of removal spell in the colors of your opponents deck.
6) On the mana, even with 4 Horizon Canopy flooding can happen, Obviously. But I have been thinking along other lines. The mana base was very, VERY white heavy. I've tried to make it so that in most situations any combination of 2 lands on turn 2 and 3 lands on turn 3 can cast our t2 and t3 play's respectivily. Downside is our life total, but it might be done with fastlands too. Given we only even want to get to three lands.
the inclusion, Watery Grave alongside fetches. Not sure if the second Horizon Canopy should be a third Marsh Flats for extra thinning instead of drawing.
This is the list I've been rocking lately.
1 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Ancient Ziggurat
Creatures
4 Aether Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Meddling Mage
3 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Vithian Renegades
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
Casual results (some paper, some online):
Wins versus GB Tron, E-Tron, RW Humans, Humans Mirror, GW Company, Death and Taxes, Mardu Midrange, Jeskai, Ponza, Trough the Breach.
Loss versus Burn, GW Company (Fringe), Affinity, RB Storm (Waste Not), Jund
Especially Jund is VERY strong against us for having main deck answers to everything we can play against them.
Merry Christmas to you all!
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
See you all in the new year
Ancient Ziggurat is not great in multiples in your opener when we want to cast Aether Vial or some of our side tech. On the other hand it's great with Phantasmal Image.
Cutting one in favor of the third fetch solves both these problems. But will it lead to inconsistency?
Damping Matrix can be our Stony Silence while also providing the upside of Harsh Mentor versus Knightfall/Vizier company. At 3cmc though.......
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Has Descendants' Path been explored in this deck? Dark Confidant seems to be the favored card draw engine for the tribe, but there are strong incentives to seriously consider Descendants' Path instead. Not only is it super hard to remove, but it's free mana (of any color) on top of card advantage. It won't kill you in the long run, and will filter out non-Human cards to the bottom deck. It's obviously no better than Aether Vial the turn you cast it, but it can take over the game if you top deck it in the mid or long game. Will it be that hard to cast a 2G spell given our mana base?
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Nope. The plan with a Vial deck is to get one in your opening hand so you can have more threats onto the battlefield faster, and also get them at instant speed. If you play only 3, you lower the chances of having one in your opening hand.
It has not in this thread.
D's path is very slow at 3 cmc. You can't cast it via Ziggurat and you need a green source. To play this card, you have to rebuild your manabase from the scratch. You might want your early drops to be somewhat resilient or protected (Deft Duelist, Kytheon, Hero of Akros) so you're sure to trigger the enchantment ; maybe it's irrelevant. Your pay-off creatures might lean your list towards a more aggressive shell (maybe even a combo package). You also can't take advantage of Cavern of Souls uncounterable clause with that enchantment.
To me it's a combo card, and if not, it doesn't really fit the existing Coco and Vial shells. Feel free to work on it though !
I'm trying to explore new ideas for Humans... so, what about Huntmaster of the Fells in the SB vs Burn? Or Ninja of the Deep Hours to get some card advantage and bounce back Humans with ETB abilities?
About Phantasmal Image : naming Humans with Cavern of Souls and Unclaimed Territory makes it harder to cast, no?
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Against Burn you want a low cmc creature that gains you at least 3 life over the course of a game so it cancels at least one of your opponent's spell (Arashin Cleric, Auriok Champ, Lantern Scout, etc...). Huntmaster has a better impact against grindy decks because you put 2 creatures on the board (spot removal insurance), one of them is immune to Decay / unrevolted Push, and once you flip it, it becomes a real clock.
Here you'd have to rebuild your manabase cause you can't get blue via Cavern / Territory for Ninjutsu and can't use Ziggurat either. I think the card is obsolete nowadays, the set up is complicated and the reward not powerful enough, since you used 2 mana to draw a card you might not be able to cast in the same turn. At least, Bob costs you no mana and is a sure card every turn.
Yup, and you have very few blue sources in the deck. You can play some copies though, but 4x is certainly too many. 2 is safe, 3 is already quite greedy. Make your own experience with the card !
It is featured on TCG Articles this morning
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14362&writer=Adam Yurchick&articledate=12-28-2017
I played monowhite humans a lot last year and it was good until April 2017, where I was no longer able to win with it because of the change in the Meta.
What do you think? A real come back or just luck?
4 Field Marshal
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Ranger of Eos
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Thraben Inspector
2 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Mutavault
6 Plains
1 Shefet Dunes
3 Disenchant
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Pithing Needle
4 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
Just don't let them resolve All is dust or Karn Liberated and you are solid.
I try to keep Vithian Renegades for Oblivion Stone and keep Reflector Mage for Wurmcoil Engine or it's tokens. A resolved one can be a pain though.
You'll need the disruptive part of your deck in this match. Booter, Mage and Big Thalia are MVP here!
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I've got a few questions for the thread as I haven't been keeping up on changes over the last couple of weeks (every modern diehard knows change is rapid and subtle in this format):
1) Kytheon. Considered running a singleton in the main. Seems good as a one-of maybe? What are people's thoughts on this.
2) hostage taker. I stuck two in my sideboard and haven't had the opportunity to cast them yet, or really get a feel for whether four mana is too much or not. Huntmaster was another option I've yet to try. I really like the text on both cards and feel that they could significantly boost any grindy matchups, but can anyone weigh in and let me know how either of these has played out for them in practice? Hostage taker particularly seems like a synergy-win in this deck performing a whole range of utilities as well as presenting a nice clock, but I could be underestimating how restrictive the cmc of 4 is for us.
3) Chalice of the void in the side; Chalice is a pet card of mine & before anyone even mentioned it for the humans deck I was brewing in that direction. I even used to run it in elves (4x cavern). I know I'll be testing this card heavily going forward but you guys will have results and insight I haven't yet had the opportunity to glean. What's your perspective on Chalice at the moment and what are the issues/stumble points I need to be aware of? E.g. Whether or not to side out vials when bringing in chalices; seems counter intuitive (vial helps play one drops through Chalice) but then how often do we keep a vial on one and how worse are our topdecks if we are running 8 artifacts rather than 4? See what I mean?
Cheers guys
Welcome back, there are a few new results on MTGtop8 regarding Humans. What strikes me is they all play the fetchless manabase, 4copies of Phantasmal Image and a sideboard with several silver bullets. I've never been a fan of this strategy. Maybe Phantasmal Image multiplies the total amount but still, you have to draw the one of first. I'm still on one copy.
I might not see its potential, but i've never felt it's inclusion to be worth the try. What would you say is the role of kytheon in the deck?
I play a pair of Hostage Takers in standard and it's a great card when you are actually able to cast the taken creature. Either directly or the turn after and protect it. I consider it a 5 mana play because the problem is, it gets Fatal Push online and in modern it takes any other removal spell. When it gets destroyed immediately, you've wasted a whole turn, or ticked up Vial to 4, which is otherwise useless.
Hoatage Taker one of those very low floor, very high ceiling cards with no inbetween. Tread with care.
Challice is great, I have one in the side for random 0 and 1 cmc spells in Affinity, Jeskai, Grixis and like yesterday, Bushwhacker aggro.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Seen some different builds als i've read the article of Joël on CFB about cutting the Vial.
What are your thought on this?
Wich 60 MB is a good way to start building?