And Humans wins! This deck will no longer be a secret to many. I have learned that maybe the Mantis Rider list (Bant Red?) is very solid. I'm still not so sure about Aether Vial and 0 Collected Company. That card is so insane, but I guess the Ancient Ziggurats don't really line up well vs. it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yeah, like I said earlier, it looks like he decided to take the power level of the 5C shell and just do away with the stuff that made the mana difficult by cutting the colored spells and running Aether Vial instead. I guess this is the bittersweet day we've seen coming for a little while now; our secret is out. I'm not looking forward to playing mirrors on MTGO cause I hate mirrors . I'm also hoping that people take some time to realize that Torpor Orb effects would be good against us . Man...after doing so well at FNM and seeing Humans crush this weekend, I'm increasingly sad that I couldn't make it to Charlotte last weekend. I really feel like the deck could've had a big performance there.
Yeah, I think he's mainly just the first player to have finally capitalized on what we've known since we started testing Kitesail Freebooter - Humans is a real deck now. He also managed to avoid a lot of tough matchups. I'm not convinced that Aether Vial is the optimal build, but it certainly has its merits. I think we're right there with the Bant Black shell and the current work being done on the 5C Collected Company shell. I haven't had much time the last several days, but I've had it on my to-do list to try out the 5 Color CoCo list with headminerve's mana base suggestion, which would look like this:
Yeah, I think he's mainly just the first player to have finally capitalized on what we've known since we started testing Kitesail Freebooter - Humans is a real deck now. He also managed to avoid a lot of tough matchups. I'm not convinced that Aether Vial is the optimal build, but it certainly has its merits. I think we're right there with the Bant Black shell and the current work being done on the 5C Collected Company shell. I haven't had much time the last several days, but I've had it on my to-do list to try out the 5 Color CoCo list with headminerve's mana base suggestion, which would look like this:
EDIT: The Primer has been updated with new information and updated decklists
7 fetch lands? Might be right because I often draw a ton of lands in the mid to endgame. I think the aether vial version is extremely good if you open with vial. This is the same with mono white dnt. However we have a problem with coco in a mirror with 4 meddling mage because they can name coco and path. I like the fact that the vial list can have all humans in the sb which doesn't decrease our creature count
GG to Collins. His performance is really surprising, like he didn't lose a single match, right ? He probably dodged the worst MUs (did he encounter UWx, Bogles, Living End, Burn or Counters Company ?), and his list was very good for non-creature MUs. I have to watch is matches on camera once it's on YT, I missed Day 2 entirely. His win VS Merfolk must be interesting to watch btw, the MU is close.
Freebooter really gives Vial a bit more credibility, the same way Sculler does in D&T. I think it's a bit short though, and I don't see myself switch to Vial yet. On the other hand, it makes me wanna try it along with a couple Hostage Takers. After all, Merfolk plays 4-drops too...
I personally still like the 2-2 split of Med Mage and Thalia V1. Playing 4-of each seems ballsy, but I can see Med Mage as a 4-of somewhere in the 75.
I mean, the list won so there is obviously something there, but I'm not personally ready to give up my RIPs and Silences even if they are my only non human cards in the sideboard
I also know this semifinal opponent and friend, Jeremy on UG Merfolk.
I think Jeremy could have won. He messed up the attacks by attacking with Lord of Atlantis and Merrew Rejewery. I think a build without Path to Exile has big troubles against Lords and Master of Waves. He has Fiend Hunter to compensate a bit for that, but I don't know if this is enough. I am also very surprised that he was able to win against Elves without CoCo and Path.
Yeah, I definitely think there was a combination of avoiding bad matchups and having just enough luck and of course skill to navigate the few difficult ones he did face.
I still don't see the value of Stony Silence. Affinity is easily beatable without it and we most certainly don't want to slow ourselves down against Eldrazi Tron. I highly recommend people compare Mullen's games against Eldrazi Tron to the one last week where the Humans player sided into Stony and slowed himself way down with it and lost. It's an absolutely unnecessary card for Humans lists, imo. Rest in Peace is generally fine, because the decks you bring it in against have a really difficult time functioning with it on the battlefield (note: referring to decks like Dredge and Living End. I wouldn't recommend it against decks that are only situationally affected by it). Stony Silence can very often be a do-nothing card, even in its best matchups, where the opponent just ignores and kills you anyway.
Ok so I watched the top 8. VS D&T obviously he lost G1 because his maindeck isn't prepared for creature MUs anyway. VS Merfolk same conclusion. Thing is he keeps the Freebooters, which is a pretty bad choice, so if we consider the Merfolk player played poorly and Collins sided poorly (and mulliganed more), I'm not sure we can decide which player deserved the win anyway. G3 was not a relevant example of how the MU should go.
He can easily do -1 Thalia V1 / + 1 Ref Mage in his maindeck.
I still don't see the value of Stony Silence.
Well Affi is a close MU, it's not "easily" winnable post-SB, especially G3 on the draw. Stony is good when Lantern and Tron are also around, that's where the card has the most value. In short, in a wide metagame. Now it's true the current meta may let us play Renegades and/or Qasali instead. In that case, I would recommend Eternal Witness over Tireless Tracker (which is probably a bad choice in Collins list, running only 3/4 fetchlands).
We got to take into account Collins tried the Human tribe for the event (he's probably new to the archetype), so his suboptimal choices are overall very excusable, and his performance very promising.
Rest in Peace is generally fine, because the decks you bring it in against have a really difficult time functioning with it on the battlefield (note: referring to decks like Dredge and Living End. I wouldn't recommend it against decks that are only situationally affected by it
Dredge is such a good MU (with Staticaster, Auriok / Mirran in the side, it's already enough) that RIP isn't needed. Living End is tough and that's the only deck I see where we want the card, but still, our board gets wrathed by LE anyway (Med Mage + Freebooter is a better approach imo). Death's Shadow is a deck we prey on and Storm can be handled with Thalia, Med Mage and Freebooter, and maybe Ethersworn Canonist (good VS LE too).
I came to the conclusion Stony was more wanted than RIP overall. And I'm not at all against the idea we need none of these cards. I think they're always fine choices when we expect certain decks and that they must not be put aside because the deck wants creatures for Coco / Vial. The same conclusion applies for Elves that I've been playing for a while, it's a deck that finds merits in some non-creature spells in the SB.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Glad to see Humans doing well! I've been lurking for a while, playing the deck in paper and it's good to have some results to point to now (even if I think Collected Company is way better than Aether Vial most of the time). I've been running a list similar to kingcars from the previous page and I'd like to hear any thoughts on the list, and I have a few specific questions as well.
I see Arashin Cleric in a lot of sideboards; is that just for the Burn match up or are there other times it comes in? I haven't played the match up much but I'd think you could either beat them without the extra help, or if you really want an anti-Burn card you'd play Auriok Champion instead.
@kingcars, how have you liked the Arid Mesa manabase? I thought I'd rather fetch Forest for mana dorks and/or CoCo against land hate but the deck does seem to be largely white-based.
Do you board in Rest in Peace vs. Grixis Shadow? I've been happy with it when running more controlling archetypes but I can see it being too slow for Humans to want it against them.
Are there any realistic options for enchantment hate? It's probably not necessary in the current metagame, but I ran into some prison/control deck running main deck Ghostly Prisons the other day and the match up was virtually unwinnable.
Thoughts on Fiend Hunter vs. Banisher Priest (in the sideboard)? The effects are virtually identical in most lists so I guess it's determined by how much you want to turn them sideways.
What do people think of Harsh Mentor? I seriously doubt it's worth it in the main deck (though maybe a bear that does incidental damage could find a place in sufficiently aggressive lists) but it seems pretty good as a sideboard card for Lantern, Displacer Taxes, and possibly Eldrazi Tron.
I see Arashin Cleric in a lot of sideboards; is that just for the Burn match up
Yes. And vs other occasional aggro decks (Zoo).
how have you liked the Arid Mesa manabase? I thought I'd rather fetch Forest for mana dorks and/or CoCo against land hate but the deck does seem to be largely white-based.
Arid Mesa goes along the green shockland you may want to add to your shockland package. If you prefer Breeding Pool for example, gor for Flooded Strand. In case of a Blood Moon revival in the format or in your local meta, green fetches come back into the discussion, indeed. It also depends on the spells you play. The more black cards you have, the more you're inclined to run fetchalnds that can bring black in addition to the Bant colors.
Do you board in Rest in Peace vs. Grixis Shadow?
Yes if you play it. The MU should be good anyway. If you don't want RIP in your SB, you can fit in another grindy card instead, in order to be more proactive (Crusader, Witness, etc...).
Are there any realistic options for enchantment hate?
Qasali Pridemage, Disenchant. Same case as Blood Moon, it's meta / tournament dependant. Now we hopefully have 4 Freebooters in the main, that helps.
Thoughts on Fiend Hunter vs. Banisher Priest (in the sideboard)?
I would play Hunter for its extra toughness. Matters VS Ballista, Bolt and Shock ranges, can block better in aggro MUs (Merfolk, Burn, Zoo, etc...).
What do people think of Harsh Mentor?
Not for this archetype, not for this format. There's too many MUs where it does nothing, or not enough. Slots are tight, and there's always a card that helps better in the MUs where it could be good.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Glad to see Humans doing well! I've been lurking for a while, playing the deck in paper and it's good to have some results to point to now (even if I think Collected Company is way better than Aether Vial most of the time). I've been running a list similar to kingcars from the previous page and I'd like to hear any thoughts on the list, and I have a few specific questions as well.
I see Arashin Cleric in a lot of sideboards; is that just for the Burn match up or are there other times it comes in? I haven't played the match up much but I'd think you could either beat them without the extra help, or if you really want an anti-Burn card you'd play Auriok Champion instead.
Yeah, Arashin Cleric is mainly for burn, but also has utility against under low slung aggro decks like Goblins and Kird Ape style decks. The reason I personally use it over Auriok Champion is because it's easier to cast and doesn't require specific conditions to do what it needs to do. Champion needs to be played early and have creatures to follow it up. Cleric gives immediate value no matter when it's drawn, which can be huge when top decking against burn. We have enough good matchups that we can be very specific about our sideboard plans for bad matchups.
@kingcars, how have you liked the Arid Mesa manabase? I thought I'd rather fetch Forest for mana dorks and/or CoCo against land hate but the deck does seem to be largely white-based.
I unfortunately have not had the chance to test it yet. I'm hoping to get around to it this week and will post back with results/thoughts.
Do you board in Rest in Peace vs. Grixis Shadow? I've been happy with it when running more controlling archetypes but I can see it being too slow for Humans to want it against them.
I don't. I like to keep the deck threat-dense. We generally don't care that much about the delve creatures, and the occasional Snapcaster value isn't much of a concern when we're overwhelming their board.
Look at it this way - the Rest in Peace you played could have instead been a creature they needed to answer or an answer to one of their creatures, and could have further grown your other humans or been an extra lord target. The fact that they might get an extra Fatal Push off a Snapcaster Mage doesn't really make a big difference in many situations when the pressure starts to snowball.
Are there any realistic options for enchantment hate? It's probably not necessary in the current metagame, but I ran into some prison/control deck running main deck Ghostly Prisons the other day and the match up was virtually unwinnable.
Thoughts on Fiend Hunter vs. Banisher Priest (in the sideboard)? The effects are virtually identical in most lists so I guess it's determined by how much you want to turn them sideways.
Fiend Hunter is generally preferred due to its toughness. They're good effects to have, but aren't very necessary when running Paths and Reflector Mages. However, if matchups like Merfolk end up being more of a problem, we may want to side 1 or 2.
What do people think of Harsh Mentor? I seriously doubt it's worth it in the main deck (though maybe a bear that does incidental damage could find a place in sufficiently aggressive lists) but it seems pretty good as a sideboard card for Lantern, Displacer Taxes, and possibly Eldrazi Tron.
I think Harsh Mentor is just too narrow right now. It could be great in some matchups, but there are usually better sideboard options that cover more area.
Ok so I watched the top 8. VS D&T obviously he lost G1 because his maindeck isn't prepared for creature MUs anyway. VS Merfolk same conclusion. Thing is he keeps the Freebooters, which is a pretty bad choice, so if we consider the Merfolk player played poorly and Collins sided poorly (and mulliganed more), I'm not sure we can decide which player deserved the win anyway. G3 was not a relevant example of how the MU should go.
He can easily do -1 Thalia V1 / + 1 Ref Mage in his maindeck.
I thought it was a mistake to keep in Freebooter. I play that matchup a lot and it is very rare that you are actually able to hit something. Path to Exile however is very important in the Merfolk matchup. I think the main advantage of the vial list is that we can run 4 Thalia V1.0, 4 Freebooter and 4 Meddling Mages and that this improves our bad to mediocre matchups: Burn, Storm, Valakut. It takes a lot of speed imo. However, more people have sideboard hate against CoCo (because of Counters Company) then against Aether Vials. Therefore it might actually be the prefered build. A bit less explosive though
Would 2-3 Dark Confidant make more sense than Tracker as a card advantage tool in a Vial list?
I know some BW Eldrazi & Taxes players run 2x Bob in the main. Here we have the same advantage of being able to Vial him in EoT to guarantee drawing at least one card. I still need to get a sense for the pain levels of the Vial list manabase — depending on how bad it is I might try swapping 2x Meddling Mage in the main for Bob or leave him in the side.
Would 2-3 Dark Confidant make more sense than Tracker as a card advantage tool in a Vial list?
I will cut Trackers for Arashin Cleric, or War Priest of Thune, or another Big Thalia.
Tracker will be bad with just this lands, the other dudes will incress the MU when you don't need the Freebooters or Mini Thalia.
I guess another 2 drop is better to switch with Freebooter/Thalia in some MU, but I don't know the best option yet.
Dark Confidant has been a trap card in many cases with these builds. I ran him for a while and found myself dying to him far more often than any opponent did. Without having some built in lifegain, he's a major liability. You end up having to race your opponent and your own Bob.
I've agreed that he's badly positioned in the CoCo builds for some time, but I haven't been completely convinced that he'd be bad in the new Vial lists yet.
To continue the BW Taxes comparison, 72% of competitive BW Eldrazi & Taxes decks ran 2-3x copies of Dark Confidant over the last ~2 months. Our mana base is probably slightly more painful, but our clock is also probably faster than theirs and the curve is a bit lower. They also don't run any lifegain in the MB.
I think he should be tested cautiously in the new Vial list before labeling him a trap. I'll try to get the physical cards together in the next couple weeks and provide real data.
I wouldn't call it "collins" deck. ..I posted that list some days ago..it is basically the deck.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Meddling Mage
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
EDIT: The Primer has been updated with new information and updated decklists
7 fetch lands? Might be right because I often draw a ton of lands in the mid to endgame. I think the aether vial version is extremely good if you open with vial. This is the same with mono white dnt. However we have a problem with coco in a mirror with 4 meddling mage because they can name coco and path. I like the fact that the vial list can have all humans in the sb which doesn't decrease our creature count
CoCo lists should be doing this as well. I've been advocating for creature-heavy sideboards from the beginning.
Freebooter really gives Vial a bit more credibility, the same way Sculler does in D&T. I think it's a bit short though, and I don't see myself switch to Vial yet. On the other hand, it makes me wanna try it along with a couple Hostage Takers. After all, Merfolk plays 4-drops too...
I personally still like the 2-2 split of Med Mage and Thalia V1. Playing 4-of each seems ballsy, but I can see Med Mage as a 4-of somewhere in the 75.
Vithian Renegades more accurate than Stony Silence ? Specific to his list or meta call ?
I think Jeremy could have won. He messed up the attacks by attacking with Lord of Atlantis and Merrew Rejewery. I think a build without Path to Exile has big troubles against Lords and Master of Waves. He has Fiend Hunter to compensate a bit for that, but I don't know if this is enough. I am also very surprised that he was able to win against Elves without CoCo and Path.
I still don't see the value of Stony Silence. Affinity is easily beatable without it and we most certainly don't want to slow ourselves down against Eldrazi Tron. I highly recommend people compare Mullen's games against Eldrazi Tron to the one last week where the Humans player sided into Stony and slowed himself way down with it and lost. It's an absolutely unnecessary card for Humans lists, imo. Rest in Peace is generally fine, because the decks you bring it in against have a really difficult time functioning with it on the battlefield (note: referring to decks like Dredge and Living End. I wouldn't recommend it against decks that are only situationally affected by it). Stony Silence can very often be a do-nothing card, even in its best matchups, where the opponent just ignores and kills you anyway.
He can easily do -1 Thalia V1 / + 1 Ref Mage in his maindeck.
Well Affi is a close MU, it's not "easily" winnable post-SB, especially G3 on the draw. Stony is good when Lantern and Tron are also around, that's where the card has the most value. In short, in a wide metagame. Now it's true the current meta may let us play Renegades and/or Qasali instead. In that case, I would recommend Eternal Witness over Tireless Tracker (which is probably a bad choice in Collins list, running only 3/4 fetchlands).
We got to take into account Collins tried the Human tribe for the event (he's probably new to the archetype), so his suboptimal choices are overall very excusable, and his performance very promising.
Dredge is such a good MU (with Staticaster, Auriok / Mirran in the side, it's already enough) that RIP isn't needed. Living End is tough and that's the only deck I see where we want the card, but still, our board gets wrathed by LE anyway (Med Mage + Freebooter is a better approach imo). Death's Shadow is a deck we prey on and Storm can be handled with Thalia, Med Mage and Freebooter, and maybe Ethersworn Canonist (good VS LE too).
I came to the conclusion Stony was more wanted than RIP overall. And I'm not at all against the idea we need none of these cards. I think they're always fine choices when we expect certain decks and that they must not be put aside because the deck wants creatures for Coco / Vial. The same conclusion applies for Elves that I've been playing for a while, it's a deck that finds merits in some non-creature spells in the SB.
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
3x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Kitesail Freebooter
4x Mantis Rider
1x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Reflector Mage
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
Land (21)
1x Breeding Pool
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
4x Unclaimed Territory
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2x Meddling Mage
2x Rest in Peace
3x Sin Collector
2x Stony Silence
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Vithian Renegades
Yes. And vs other occasional aggro decks (Zoo).
Arid Mesa goes along the green shockland you may want to add to your shockland package. If you prefer Breeding Pool for example, gor for Flooded Strand. In case of a Blood Moon revival in the format or in your local meta, green fetches come back into the discussion, indeed. It also depends on the spells you play. The more black cards you have, the more you're inclined to run fetchalnds that can bring black in addition to the Bant colors.
Yes if you play it. The MU should be good anyway. If you don't want RIP in your SB, you can fit in another grindy card instead, in order to be more proactive (Crusader, Witness, etc...).
Qasali Pridemage, Disenchant. Same case as Blood Moon, it's meta / tournament dependant. Now we hopefully have 4 Freebooters in the main, that helps.
I would play Hunter for its extra toughness. Matters VS Ballista, Bolt and Shock ranges, can block better in aggro MUs (Merfolk, Burn, Zoo, etc...).
Not for this archetype, not for this format. There's too many MUs where it does nothing, or not enough. Slots are tight, and there's always a card that helps better in the MUs where it could be good.
Welcome to the party! Nice list. How has the 5C setup been working out for you?
Headminerve answered your questions well, but I'll add in my two cents as well.
Yeah, Arashin Cleric is mainly for burn, but also has utility against under low slung aggro decks like Goblins and Kird Ape style decks. The reason I personally use it over Auriok Champion is because it's easier to cast and doesn't require specific conditions to do what it needs to do. Champion needs to be played early and have creatures to follow it up. Cleric gives immediate value no matter when it's drawn, which can be huge when top decking against burn. We have enough good matchups that we can be very specific about our sideboard plans for bad matchups.
I unfortunately have not had the chance to test it yet. I'm hoping to get around to it this week and will post back with results/thoughts.
I don't. I like to keep the deck threat-dense. We generally don't care that much about the delve creatures, and the occasional Snapcaster value isn't much of a concern when we're overwhelming their board.
Look at it this way - the Rest in Peace you played could have instead been a creature they needed to answer or an answer to one of their creatures, and could have further grown your other humans or been an extra lord target. The fact that they might get an extra Fatal Push off a Snapcaster Mage doesn't really make a big difference in many situations when the pressure starts to snowball.
Kitesail Freebooter and Meddling Mage are the primary plan for such matchups, but if you want enchantment specific hate, War Priest of Thune has done a lot of work for me in the past.
Fiend Hunter is generally preferred due to its toughness. They're good effects to have, but aren't very necessary when running Paths and Reflector Mages. However, if matchups like Merfolk end up being more of a problem, we may want to side 1 or 2.
I think Harsh Mentor is just too narrow right now. It could be great in some matchups, but there are usually better sideboard options that cover more area.
I thought it was a mistake to keep in Freebooter. I play that matchup a lot and it is very rare that you are actually able to hit something. Path to Exile however is very important in the Merfolk matchup. I think the main advantage of the vial list is that we can run 4 Thalia V1.0, 4 Freebooter and 4 Meddling Mages and that this improves our bad to mediocre matchups: Burn, Storm, Valakut. It takes a lot of speed imo. However, more people have sideboard hate against CoCo (because of Counters Company) then against Aether Vials. Therefore it might actually be the prefered build. A bit less explosive though
I know some BW Eldrazi & Taxes players run 2x Bob in the main. Here we have the same advantage of being able to Vial him in EoT to guarantee drawing at least one card. I still need to get a sense for the pain levels of the Vial list manabase — depending on how bad it is I might try swapping 2x Meddling Mage in the main for Bob or leave him in the side.
I will cut Trackers for Arashin Cleric, or War Priest of Thune, or another Big Thalia.
Tracker will be bad with just this lands, the other dudes will incress the MU when you don't need the Freebooters or Mini Thalia.
I guess another 2 drop is better to switch with Freebooter/Thalia in some MU, but I don't know the best option yet.
To continue the BW Taxes comparison, 72% of competitive BW Eldrazi & Taxes decks ran 2-3x copies of Dark Confidant over the last ~2 months. Our mana base is probably slightly more painful, but our clock is also probably faster than theirs and the curve is a bit lower. They also don't run any lifegain in the MB.
I think he should be tested cautiously in the new Vial list before labeling him a trap. I'll try to get the physical cards together in the next couple weeks and provide real data.