Hello, everyone! The concept of a Humans deck has peaked my interest ever since I've started playing MtG, but I never got around to building and playing it. I have a question before I begin building (and I'm sorry if anyone has brought it up recently), but is it really that hard to go straight 5C for the deck? From what I've gathered, the main reason for going Black Bant is Anafenza, The Foremost, while Red Bant has more interesting choices (I honestly would love to play Kari Zev, Skyship Raider in a deck, finally!). What are the main differences in card choices between Black and Red that make them so different (aside from the already mentioned Anafenza and Kari Zev, and Mantis Rider)? I could totally see using Sacred Foundry/Overgrown Tomb in tandem, or Godless Shrine/Stomping Ground.
All right all as probably the only Humans and Burn player on here that posts some what regularly. A couple of points to help y'all.
1. Burn wins with redundancy and consistent damage however whats even more key is the timing. Example, if you bring in Feed the Clan beware most people dont have more then 2 to 3 life gain Instants yet Burn runs 4 to 8 Skullcrack/Atarka's so timing when you gain that life is key cause lots of times Burn is waiting for it. 2 to 3 vs 4 to 8, odds favor Burn.
2. Skullcrack and Path has helped neutralize some what Kor and Auriok and can do to Burn.
3. Leyline is a good card when you can get it turn 0 to slow Burn a few turns but good luck if you have to hard cast it as Burn generally sides in Artifact/Enchantment answers.
4. Burn preys on decks like Humans cause it has a bunch of 2 for 1 cards that give it advantage like Searing Blaze and/or Searing Blood creature kill face damage, Smash to Smithereens/Destructive Revelry knock out a hate card and do damage, Skullcrack/Atarka's stop life gain and damage to face.
5. Multi color decks that take 4-6 damage the first 2 turns really help Burn. Heck 1 guy who knew I was playing Burn and still did 9 damage for me.......I know fetching basics isnt always an option but cards like Inspiring Vantage do help.
So how to beat Burn using the Human shell....
Option 1 out race using a midrange or 22-24 land build, not likely.
Option 2 side in life gain or anti Burn stuff, possible but got to time it right and heck just draw that card, 2 or 3 out of 60 when you need it, rough.
Option 3 accept the loss and just fold, no way Im a fighter
Consider your meta and how much you see Burn, is it worth it to waste spots on an already tough match cause ya cant side for everything.
When I run Humans and have to deal with Burn, game 1 if Burn goes first its almost always a loss unless they mana flood or just have 1 land until I own the board and attack quick. I run a 20 land speed/blitz style Humans and if I go first the match up isnt as bad as I can sometimes out race. In games 2 and 3 since I run 4 Leylines for Grixis and a few other decks I use them here but if I dont get it turn 0 it wont do much.
Now each situation is different and this is some general info/tips but not hard fast rules for those that run a midrange/22-24 land build.
1. Lets say Burn goes first and drops turn 2 Eidolon taping them out then on your turn 2 you drop land if you have Feed the Clan or Hereos' Reunion use it even if its an Instant and on your turn. That extra life can buy you and extra turn or 2 will help you stabilize the board and possibly get that 4 or 5 land out to do something big like your creatures are now out of Bolt range and you can over run Burn. Watch for Deflecting Palm if your in game 2 or
3. If in game 2 or 3 you and wanna cast lifegain and you see 2 or 3 open mana good chance you could be baited into Skullcrack. There are times its better to cast it their turn after their tapped out or in response to something that taps them out.
2. Burn has trouble with the redundancy of Merfolk and all those Lords pumping creatures out of Bolt range and the ability to lock out their White or Green mana source slowing down Burn since at least 1/3 of the deck needs that 2nd color land. How does this apply to Humans, Land destruction lands and stabilizing the board.
3. The majority of Burn players do not run sweepers like Anger, Flamebreak, Volcanic Fallout at this time but has done so in the past and will again in the future if needed. Other decks that are quick like Elves, Affinity, Speed Zoo can give Burn issues. What can a slower deck take from that, Burn is more worried about Tron, Shadow and big creatures so Path can help them there and Palm can be a game ender. Try to focus more on equal pumping with Thalia's to whatevers on the board rather then having Thalia get big and attacking with 1 big creature that can be hit with Palm.
Now please dont pull the "well if you do this I can do that" stuff cause we can go on all day with you counter my move then I counter your counter and so on. These are tips not the gospel. Good luck I hope some of this helps.
Very interesting read, and this is why I insist on managing humans as coco and non coco.
Speaking about the non coco...
Since they are mostly RW they usually pack hate in a more consistent way since they only have to worry about 2 colors.
I can see the on coco boros humans outracing red because of pumpable creatures AND burn. It wont be easy to decide for the RDW players to burn a 1/1 creature that will get bigger or the player.
Turn 0 leyline will be a nightmare for the burn player (Ive had a few scoop at this ) after G1 and allow you to somewhat freely gain life.
I think there's enough overlap in tools that you can get what you want from any 3-4 color combo, and it's not really worth running the full 5C with rainbow lands.
As you mentioned, if you're running red you're probably running Mantis Rider. Mantis Rider synergizes poorly with Avacyn's Pilgrim, so most Red players (AFAIK) have cut down the ramp, shaved off some 3 drops, and filled in more 2-drops relative to GWu(b) lists. Shaving ramp also causes you to run into more problems with Thalia GoT, so you'll probably end up cutting her. Overall this pushes you down more of an aggressive route, whereas GWu(b) aligns more with hatebears. Both builds are faced with an ongoing optimization problem of identifying the best 2-drops, but this question is much more central to red builds since they usually run more 2-drops. These approaches both have their own match-up spreads so picking an optimal base is probably a meta call -- if you let us know what you expect to be facing we can try to be more helpful.
Hello, everyone! The concept of a Humans deck has peaked my interest ever since I've started playing MtG, but I never got around to building and playing it. I have a question before I begin building (and I'm sorry if anyone has brought it up recently), but is it really that hard to go straight 5C for the deck? From what I've gathered, the main reason for going Black Bant is Anafenza, The Foremost, while Red Bant has more interesting choices (I honestly would love to play Kari Zev, Skyship Raider in a deck, finally!). What are the main differences in card choices between Black and Red that make them so different (aside from the already mentioned Anafenza and Kari Zev, and Mantis Rider)? I could totally see using Sacred Foundry/Overgrown Tomb in tandem, or Godless Shrine/Stomping Ground.
Obviously you will get some varying opinions on these things, but I've run all of the above: 5 color, "red bant" and "black bant" so hopefully I can help shed some light on the differences.
First of all, as Shelldell mentioned, the real core of the archetype is available in Bant colors, so there isn't enough reason to go 5 color due to how awful the mana gets. From there, it comes down to whether you want to splash black or splash red.
Of these, Anafenze and Necromancer are the least situational cards, and therefore the most suitable black-specific maindeck choices, aside from meta-specific variables. Anafenza is a beast and really puts on the pressure quickly while being resistant to most damage based removal. The counter ability is perfectly in line with the general Human theme and gameplan. You can even get incremental value by tapping mana dorks pre-combat so that Anafenza can add counters to them if she has to attack alone. Many people, including myself, are tempted by Dark Confidant, but it just doesn't work out very well. Games get grindy and the opponent lets your own Bob kill you. Or you get into a damage race and lose. Etc. The 3 drops are the draw here. The Black splash is great if you want to beat Living End/Dredge (graveyard-centric creature decks) using Anafenza and sweeper decks using Necromancer and Sin Collector. Kambal out of the side is great against Storm. Pontiff performs mostly the same job that Izzet Staticaster does in the "red bant" sideboard with shooting down x/1s. Compared to the red list, you sacrifice some speed but gain some resilience and hand disruption. The weakest point of the black deck to be is the lack of top notch stand alone 2 drops. Skyship Plunderer is a card I've been currently running in my black list, which works really well with Anafenza. But it's not quite at the level of the 2 drops you get from red. The other issue with the black version is that it has a harder time dealing with planeswalkers due to the lack of evasion and haste.
In the games I have played over the last few months, I continue to be impressed with Mantis Rider. It doesn't have the Legendary downside that Anafenza has in the black list, which is great, and it is very aggressive and evasive. So many decks are weak to this card, with their only hope being that they have or quickly draw a removal spell that can deal with it. I honestly have not had any issues running it with Avacyn's Pilgrim as my mana base is mostly fetch/shock based, meaning that I can set up the correct mana quite easily. Kari Zev and Brawler are more recent additions to my red list, but I have been very happy with them. They are both hard to block, and the curve of turn 1 Champion of the Parish into turn 2 Brawler/Kari Zev into turn 3 Mantis Rider is absolutely brutal. It's a very aggressive, hard to block onslaught that a lot of decks cannot deal with. Even "just" a turn 2 Mantis Rider is brutal, especially off a Noble Hierarch where you get the exalted trigger. The red bant list has the ability to put the opponent under a LOT of pressure very quickly, making it much better at getting under decks at the expense of some of the resilience of cards like Anafenza and Necromancer out of the black deck. Without the hand disruption from Sin Collector, you'll want to run some counter spells like Negate or Mana Leak in the sideboard to help fight pesky non-creature strategies.
My current "red bant" list, as an example (note: sideboard is very experimental right now):
@kingcars, that was an excellent write up. Any post that can get you to open up explore the many possibilities a deck can be is excellent. Ive been tinkering with different builds also. Just so many ideas but lots of fun playtesting.
Each color combo will give you access to different answers/tools/threats. Ive seen list and heard people with success in 2/3 color and 5 color builds. Ive yet to see a Mono White outside of some rogue brews that looked more like DnT rougue builds. Im neither for or against 5 color but I got some good feedback from another player I spoke with and here are thoughts to consider when choosing colors.
1. Will 5 color be too difficult for me/have me run into too many issues of I needed that land but wasnt able to get it or it got taken out.
2. Would packing in too much stuff/colors dilute and make your deck too situation ally dependent/consistent enough.
3. Make sure you look into the advantages/disadvantages/challenges different colors can bring to Humans. Is it worth it long run.
4. Will 2 colors not have enough answers and limit you in your meta or in a blind meta.
5. Blood Moon or Magus can be your friend or a brutal annoyance.
6. Will having 5 color cost too much or worth the cost of mana base.
7. Just because 2/3/4/5 color works for one dosent mean it will work for you cause of variables like meta, play style, skill level, etc.
There are many good posts on here on the benefits of each color and why 1 players prefers 2/3/4/5. And this thread is still new and doesnt have 100's of pages to scroll through.
At this time Im still running Boros/Human Blitz version however it ha sits limitations and strengths that so far is worth it. Im experimenting with either a Naya or American build. Black has some good stuff but its not as good for me is Path > Push yet the hand disruption helps against combo. Ah the choices we make
Unfortunately, mono white just doesn't have enough pieces to be a complete deck. A green or red splash at minimum is usually needed.
On that note, would anyone be interested in a live stream where we test out some different Humans decks in Competitive or Friendly leagues on MTGO? I've got several Humans decks built out (including the two lists in my previous post) and would really like to be able to have some live games where we can discuss lines of play, card choices, sideboarding etc. And to be able to directly compare some of these decks. If there is some interest, what would be a good day and time?
Agree with the thoughts here. Humans seems to be Green and White, with Blue a natural third colour due to Noble Hierarch and the current strength of Reflector Mage. Black for disruption/grind, red for aggression/evasion.
I was browsing the GP Birmingham lists after seeing 4 Colour Humans made it onto camera for Round 5, and then noticed that someone Top 8'd with Bant Human Knightfall. Any thoughts on adding the Knightfall package to a humans deck? Seems like an option to me, you lose black's grind/disruption and red's damage/evasion (although you could maybe up the red mana and go 4 colour?), but you do get a Human that can be a 4/4 on turn 2, as well as an 'oops I win' combo, which could allow you to steal some games, as well as a searchable source of trample late game.
Kari Zev is a sort of placeholder in the deck, I don't know if the manabase as it stands is reliable enough for her turn 2, as it has a high fetch count, but fetching for red/white turn 2 might mess up future turns where we need green/blue. Skyship Plunderer or Jhessian Infiltrator maybe, or the 4th Path from the sideboard?
Given that losing black removes the disruptive elements that colour brings, I think you're looking to just smash face as a plan B, with Reflector Mage and 3 Mana Thalia messing up your opponent's blockers and givnig you big tempo swings. You could easily drop the Retreats and 2 Knights for the Mirran Crusaders and Eternal Witnesses if you expect a lot of hate in games 2 and 3 and just focus on the beatdown.
This might belong over on the Knightfall thread, but given that this is a Humans list at heart that splashes a combo, I've put it here. Thoughts?
Although not Knightfall, I experimented with a Devoted Vizier Human (Naya) build a few months back (if you were interested, scroll back a few pages in this thread) I had mixed success, but being able to constantly threaten a infinite mana combo was pretty good. It also meant that my Champions didn't see as much spot removal because this was reserved for devoted druid. This also applied to knight of the reliquary which gave me a really good beater.
The list that I was developing definitely needed some work (I.e. Dropping lightning mauler etc) but I liked the overall concept.
Would be interested to hear how you get on with the Human Knightfall list. I'm working on an Abzan Human list so will feedback results when I get to test it
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Don't hate the idea. Any time after 5 mountain time for me. I also have my list built on MTGO. With slight changes to the sideboard due to the difference in metas
Although not Knightfall, I experimented with a Devoted Vizier Human (Naya) build a few months back (if you were interested, scroll back a few pages in this thread) I had mixed success, but being able to constantly threaten a infinite mana combo was pretty good. It also meant that my Champions didn't see as much spot removal because this was reserved for devoted druid. This also applied to knight of the reliquary which gave me a really good beater.
The list that I was developing definitely needed some work (I.e. Dropping lightning mauler etc) but I liked the overall concept.
Would be interested to hear how you get on with the Human Knightfall list. I'm working on an Abzan Human list so will feedback results when I get to test it
Will do. Early thoughts seem to be that it retains a lot of the Bant Humans style, but is slanted more towards an aggressive turning sideways plan rather than the disruption of Bant Black, but in the main deck it's not a major difference. I was running Mirran Crusader main, so you get plus points against certain decks there, but having a Knight of the Reliquary enter as a 4/4 oftentimes is helpful to avoid Bolt. Plus once you have a Knight or two out you can threaten a Kessig Wolf Run end of turn to trample over any blocker.
Although having to learn how the Retreat combo sequencing works is a bit of a headache for me starting out.
Effort has helped me vs ETron, Shadow and Knightfall. And Atarka's gives much more punch to a faster version. Still comparing whether the Boros or Naya version is a better option for me. Now I know we dont have generally a lot of slots for non creature cards in the main outside Path and Company for those in the CoCo version.
Round 1 vs. GB Tron. In the first game, he wins the die roll, then Tron piece 1-3, Karn, Ulamog, O Stone, another Ulamog. I had him at 7 life, but I literally have no chance. In the next game, he does Tron piece and Star, 2nd Tron piece and crack, Fatal Push a Champion of the Parish, turn 3 can't play Karn because Thalia is in play. Plays O Stone, then Ugin, then Ulamog and still has Wurmcoil Engine and Worldbreaker in hand. Scoop phase. I was a bit on tilt after this round, but honestly you can't do much about this. I remembered all of the complaining in the ban thread about Tron and I decided to just move on with my life. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. Burn with Shrine. In the first game, he starts off quickly, but I have Champion of the Parish and many Noble Hierarchs, which I pump with Gavony Township. I end up getting there, as he needed to crack the Shrine to kill the big Champion. Gavony gets my Hierarchs big enough to withstand the Goblin Guides that he drew. In the next game, I get Kambal, Consul of Allocation. He can't kill it and it wrecks him. His hand was a bit slow too, but Deflecting Palm on a Champ makes him lose 2 life and me only take 3 total. Kambal basically made this game easy, as a large Champion of the Parish ends up getting there. Good draws for me. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Jund Vine. This is the deck that Todd Anderson piloted this past weekend. I think there was a deck tech at SCG if anyone's interested. In the first game, he makes my 4 land hand discard a Champ. But I have another Champ and Noble Hierarch. He gets out Hollow One, but ends up getting severely mana flooded, as I Sin Collector him to see 3 lands in hand with 4 already in play. In the next game, he gets out 2 Vengevine and 2 Hollow One on turn 2. I look at my board and hand and scoop. In the final game, I play Noble Hierarch into Meddling Mage on Hollow One. I end up using Path to Exile EoT to remove a Goblin Guide from a potential block on my lethal Mirran Crusader. I show him the other Path to Exile and he scoops. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. Merfolk. Three Folk players here today. Nearly made me play Affinity today, but I figured I'd rather not dodge playing each of them. Game 1, I keep with 3 land, 2 creatures, and 2 Collected Company. I draw 2 more Company, but no 4th land. His creatures are too big for me. In the next game, I basically nut draws him with Champ into Noble Hierarch into Collected Company 2 Sin Collectors into Mayor of Avabruck and Thalia's Lieutenant. He looks at his turn 4 play and scoops. In the final game, I punted pretty badly. Firstly, I probably should have sided Orzhov Pontiff for his Master of Waves. But I figured 4 Reflector Mage and 4 Path to Exile should be enough, especially with Collected Company for at least 4 of those. Nope. He got one down, which was fine, but I attacked with my Thalia, Heretic Cathar, which allowed for him to draw and cast a Lord, activate Mutavault (he was at 4 mana), and attack with everything for exact lethal (5 Elementals get through and I'm at 10 life; he's at 3). The Thalia basically makes sure the Master of Waves can't attack because of his First Strike, at least until he casts a Lord and a Spreading Seas. I have 3 Reflector Mage (cast one mistakenly on a Vendilion Clique that I probably could have raced anyway) and 4 Path to Exile left in the deck to bounce the Master and swing for lethal. But I take the chance that he won't attack with the Master, but he makes the correct play of attacking with all of his creatures. The sad part is that I probably would have played it the same if given another chance. I was sick of battling top decks (he could draw 2-3 more Master of Waves to me not finding Path to Exile or Reflector Mage) and I felt that he wouldn't attack with the Master of Waves, for fear of losing it and all of the Elementals. Doesn't matter since it's lethal. I was somewhat upset about this, more so that I felt that I wouldn't take it back if I could. 1-2.
I finish 2-2 for the 2nd time. The 4th round was an obvious punt and should have been an easy victory probably. Oh well...
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Thanks for the report. To be fair, Pontif and Staticaster must be brought in against Merfolk, always. In the early game it can kill Silvergil Adept and Cursecatcher (they may wanna side that one though), and eventually elementals. It can also mess up combat in our favour.
It's a MU where EE on 2 is insane.
One question: why did you keep Sin Col x2 post-SB ? To me, it seems like this is the card you wanna cut for Pontif...
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Thanks for the report. To be fair, Pontif and Staticaster must be brought in against Merfolk, always. In the early game it can kill Silvergil Adept and Cursecatcher (they may wanna side that one though), and eventually elementals. It can also mess up combat in our favour.
It's a MU where EE on 2 is insane.
One question: why did you keep Sin Col x2 post-SB ? To me, it seems like this is the card you wanna cut for Pontif...
Definitely agree that Pontiff is better than Sin Collector post board. Though I will say that I never bring in my Staticaster against Merfolk, because it is completely useless unless you manage to get it down before they drop one of their bazillion Lords. Seems to be mainly useful for Master of Waves tokens, I guess.
Thanks for the report. To be fair, Pontif and Staticaster must be brought in against Merfolk, always. In the early game it can kill Silvergil Adept and Cursecatcher (they may wanna side that one though), and eventually elementals. It can also mess up combat in our favour.
It's a MU where EE on 2 is insane.
One question: why did you keep Sin Col x2 post-SB ? To me, it seems like this is the card you wanna cut for Pontif...
Yeah, you're certainly right. I had punted before I even began playing the 3rd game (perhaps even the 2nd game on the play, although I wanted to be aggressive in that one).
My thought for some number of Sin Collector was this. I just wanted to see his hand so it would make it easier for me to do an important Meddling Mage. Otherwise, I see a scenario where I name Lord of Atlantis and then lose to triple Master of the Pearl Trident. A fringe situation was that I wanted to also make sure that Vapor Snag was not in his hand, because I can see this messing up combat for me and swinging the game. The reason I didn't side in Orzhov Pontiff was because I felt it was not needed. I felt it was overkill since I have 4 Reflector Mage and 4 Path to Exile. Collected Company can also potentially pick up a Reflector Mage as well. I thought that the -1/-1 effect would be terrible in the mid game when there are 3-4 Lords out already. I failed to realize that I can't save Path to Exile for Master of Waves if I'm getting beat down by 3 Lords on turn 3. So that basically leaves me with 4 Reflector Mage, which I would also want to do on the potential Lords. I want more answers to Master of Waves than just that. I also figured that if a potential Master of Waves resolves with a lot of Elementals, I've probably lost already because there's multiple Lords out. I underestimated the card in the matchup. I don't actually have Izzet Staticaster in my list. I assumed that players either played Staticaster or Pontiff as a 2 of.
Thinking back, I should have sided differently. I probably shouldn't have even sided in Meddling Mage. It was kind of a cheeky play that I had hoped would work out okay for me. I ended up siding out 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and 1 Sin Collector for 2 Meddling Mage and Reclamation Sage (also saw Smuggler's Copters in the first game). Kind of an embarrassing side, but I'll admit it.
The sad part is that I assumed that he would draw a lot of Lords, but he only drew 2 Merrow Reejery and a Lord of Atlantis in game 1, a Lord of Atlantis in game 2 albeit he scooped before playing out turn 4, and a Lord of Atlantis in game 3 (I had locked up a Merrow Reejery with Meddling Mage).
*This is part of the problem with not testing with SB. I only tested the deck for 2 weeks against myself at home vs. around 3 decks (GDS, Titanshift, and Knightfall). This was my 2nd tournament with the deck, going 2-2 last FNM. But it's no excuse. I should have played a lot better. Not much I can do in Round 1, but shuffle my opponent's deck better, but Round 4 definitely was mine to win or lose.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
A couple of weeks ago I put together Bant Human Knightfall. It was only a few cards different from Ivan de Castro Sanchez's GP Birmingham top 8 list, so I feel like I was on the right track at least. I have taken his list as a baseline, some of the advice Ari Lax gave in his video set, and my own experience to arrive at my current list. I went 4-0 at FNM, beating Seismic Swans (I know, right?!? If you are unfamiliar, look it up, it's hilarious), G/r Ponza, Burn, and Counters Company.
This deck feels really sweet, especially the sideboard. I made a couple of notable changes from Sanchez's list. I removed Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and moved a copy of Retreat to Coralhelm to the sideboard. I added one Gavony Township because there are few cards better when going wide in modern. The third Eternal Witness was added because I wanted another three-drop and she is likely better than any of the alternatives.
On Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: The decks she's best against are in a downswing currently. There is also the ever-present friction with our own cards, Path to Exile and Collected Company. This sideboard is better against the 'unfair' decks than what I had been running, so the disruption provided by her just wasn't needed as much.
On Retreat to Coralhelm: This card can win games out of nowhere but takes quite a bit of life to combo off. That makes it somewhat of a liability against any kind of aggressive strategy. It is a card that gets sided out fairly often because of this. Bring the second copy in against decks that don't threaten life totals quickly or when you need to combo off faster than an opponent. If your local metagame doesn't have many aggro decks then feel free to run the second copy main over the third Eternal Witness. I did get to combo off turn three on the play against Ponza. That felt good.
On Reflector Mage: The last time I tried this card I didn't like it. Right now, I think it's busted. The format has become a bit more creature-dense and as a result there are few better tempo plays. I also have to admit that board interaction with Collected Company is pretty ruthless.
The Burrenton-Forge Tenders won me at least two games, one against Ponza and one against Burn. I don't know why I didn't have them before. Izzet Staticaster is ridiculous against Counters Company. Just remember that it will kill every Noble Hierarch on the battlefield, not just theirs - unless Thalia's Lieutenant has boosted your own Nobles. My opponent was kind of salty about that one. The body count Staticaster racked up in one game was pretty ridiculous. First activation, two Vizier of Remedies died. Second was three Birds of Paradise. Finally found Lieutenant and got two Nobles with the third activation, which prompted a concession. Negate is one of the best cards we can have against pretty much any of the combo decks and any deck with non-Supreme Verdict sweepers. If we have pressure on board, open mana, and one of these in hand, it often reads "you win the game". Unified Will is a card that I have been warming up to the more often I run into Primeval Titan. Obviously, you only want to board this card in when your opponent isn't running many creatures or removal. When it's good, though, it is a hard counter and is rarely seen coming.
Overall, my initial take on this list is that it feels more powerful and harder to beat than any of the other humans lists I have sleeved up, enough so that I am planning on tuning this for a SCG Modern Classic next month.
Have you considered using a split of Renegade Rallier and Eternal Witness ?
Having played Traditional Knightfall for almost 10 months, I understand the strengths of witness in the deck. That said, Humans Knightfall is a more aggressive/explosive version of the deck that is quite similar to my current favourite deck Rallier Zoo.
Regular Humans company can't really run rallier because they lack ways to trigger revolt reliably outside of the opponent's removal spells, the knightfall shell however with 8 fetchlands and Knight shenanigans can do so quite easily, and the humans part of the deck has multiple high value targets to recur like lieutenant, mayor, even just random dorks to double trigger a champion, utility lands and even some of the sideboard bullets.
In short, I think a 2-1 or 1-2 split instead of 3 eternal witness can provide humans knightfall with a very good mix of explosiveness and grind.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
The first deck i brought to my LGS was a "Naya Humans Aggro" list. It relies on the old "combo" of T1 Champion of the Parish, Burning-Tree Emissary into Lightning Mauler and a huge swing. Backed up with some Lightning Bolt and Atarka's Command.
It was a fun deck and i even did a 6-3 finish, after tilt in the last round, on a bigger tournament. My main problem with the Deck was that there was no "plan B" and it relied to heavy on the 2-Drops. The deck looked something like this:
After trying other decks like "Revolt Zoo", wich was a similar style of play, i want to focus on "Humans" again. I'm now playing the BantBlack version.
Now some questions:
In some situations I don't know if it is better to play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or a 3-Drop (mostly Anafenza, the Foremost). What do you recommend? I am aware that it's always situationally but maybe there is a norm.
What do you think about Meddling Mage? I am not sure with this card. In wich match-ups is it good and what cards i want to name?
Sin Collector? If yes, how many in the main? Or in the board? In my testing it was one of the worst cards...
Is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben that good? Don't get me wrong... I love this card! Sometime she hits super hard but sometimes she does nothing.
What is your opinion on the Mana Dorks? I saw lists running 6 other 8. Would you run 4x Avacyn's Pilgrim and 2x Birds of Paradise in favor of two more 3-Drops? If so, wich 3-Drops? Please let me know.
What do you think on "Naya"? I saw this girl playing Naya at the GP in Birmingham. She played Magus of the Moon over Reflector Mage to mess with the opponents manabase. Also another sideboard plan. Is an aggro build like the Blitz version viable in the current meta (with some major tweaks of course)?
That should be all for now. Sorry if you find some mistakes... english is not my native language.
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Modern: 5c Humans//Devoted Company
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Overall, my initial take on this list is that it feels more powerful and harder to beat than any of the other humans lists I have sleeved up, enough so that I am planning on tuning this for a SCG Modern Classic next month.
Thanks for the post, I'm looking to take my Bant Black list and try the Knightfall package.
In terms of your list, how has running 8 mana dorks and fewer two drops felt? I'm always wary of having to make the jump from one to three mana in the face of removal, but I think most Humans lists suffer from too many options at 3CMC and not enough at 2. Thalia is the card that comes up in these discussions, as she can mess up our CoCos, which is frustrating, but in my limited experience our opponent is less happy to see her. I can see why you would take her out, but I'd be interested as to how you find your curve.
Thoughts on Eternal Witness? I agree that she is useful, and in my view better than Rallier in your list as CoCo and the 3 drops are what you probably want back most of the time rather than Lieutenant, which she can get anyway. Wondering how 3 copies has worked for you as statswise she doesn't offer much in terms of damage, so you rely a bit more on Knight to do the heavy lifting. Thalia, Heretic Cathar has always put in work for me.
It's also probably difficult to quantify, but have you noticed anything moving from 21 to 22 lands?
Interesting sideboard too, I agree hard counters like Negate are what I think the deck needs against our bad matchups to stop a combo or removal piece. I like the idea of being flexible with the two copies of Retreat, as I've been playing with two in main, but have also boarded them out for aggressive matches.
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Very interesting read, and this is why I insist on managing humans as coco and non coco.
Speaking about the non coco...
Since they are mostly RW they usually pack hate in a more consistent way since they only have to worry about 2 colors.
I can see the on coco boros humans outracing red because of pumpable creatures AND burn. It wont be easy to decide for the RDW players to burn a 1/1 creature that will get bigger or the player.
Turn 0 leyline will be a nightmare for the burn player (Ive had a few scoop at this ) after G1 and allow you to somewhat freely gain life.
As you mentioned, if you're running red you're probably running Mantis Rider. Mantis Rider synergizes poorly with Avacyn's Pilgrim, so most Red players (AFAIK) have cut down the ramp, shaved off some 3 drops, and filled in more 2-drops relative to GWu(b) lists. Shaving ramp also causes you to run into more problems with Thalia GoT, so you'll probably end up cutting her. Overall this pushes you down more of an aggressive route, whereas GWu(b) aligns more with hatebears. Both builds are faced with an ongoing optimization problem of identifying the best 2-drops, but this question is much more central to red builds since they usually run more 2-drops. These approaches both have their own match-up spreads so picking an optimal base is probably a meta call -- if you let us know what you expect to be facing we can try to be more helpful.
Obviously you will get some varying opinions on these things, but I've run all of the above: 5 color, "red bant" and "black bant" so hopefully I can help shed some light on the differences.
First of all, as Shelldell mentioned, the real core of the archetype is available in Bant colors, so there isn't enough reason to go 5 color due to how awful the mana gets. From there, it comes down to whether you want to splash black or splash red.
Black Splash:
The key creatures you get are Anafenza, the Foremost, Sin Collector, Kambal, Consul of Allocation, Orzhov Pontiff and Xathrid Necromancer.
Of these, Anafenze and Necromancer are the least situational cards, and therefore the most suitable black-specific maindeck choices, aside from meta-specific variables. Anafenza is a beast and really puts on the pressure quickly while being resistant to most damage based removal. The counter ability is perfectly in line with the general Human theme and gameplan. You can even get incremental value by tapping mana dorks pre-combat so that Anafenza can add counters to them if she has to attack alone. Many people, including myself, are tempted by Dark Confidant, but it just doesn't work out very well. Games get grindy and the opponent lets your own Bob kill you. Or you get into a damage race and lose. Etc. The 3 drops are the draw here. The Black splash is great if you want to beat Living End/Dredge (graveyard-centric creature decks) using Anafenza and sweeper decks using Necromancer and Sin Collector. Kambal out of the side is great against Storm. Pontiff performs mostly the same job that Izzet Staticaster does in the "red bant" sideboard with shooting down x/1s. Compared to the red list, you sacrifice some speed but gain some resilience and hand disruption. The weakest point of the black deck to be is the lack of top notch stand alone 2 drops. Skyship Plunderer is a card I've been currently running in my black list, which works really well with Anafenza. But it's not quite at the level of the 2 drops you get from red. The other issue with the black version is that it has a harder time dealing with planeswalkers due to the lack of evasion and haste.
My current "black bant" list, as an example:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Skyship Plunderer
3 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Reflector Mage
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Sin Collector
1 Rest in Peace
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 War Priest of Thune
2 Meddling Mage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Arashin Cleric
Red Splash:
The key creatures you get are Mantis Rider, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, Voltaic Brawler Izzet Staticaster. There are other various sideboard cards like Vithian Renegades to note as well.
In the games I have played over the last few months, I continue to be impressed with Mantis Rider. It doesn't have the Legendary downside that Anafenza has in the black list, which is great, and it is very aggressive and evasive. So many decks are weak to this card, with their only hope being that they have or quickly draw a removal spell that can deal with it. I honestly have not had any issues running it with Avacyn's Pilgrim as my mana base is mostly fetch/shock based, meaning that I can set up the correct mana quite easily. Kari Zev and Brawler are more recent additions to my red list, but I have been very happy with them. They are both hard to block, and the curve of turn 1 Champion of the Parish into turn 2 Brawler/Kari Zev into turn 3 Mantis Rider is absolutely brutal. It's a very aggressive, hard to block onslaught that a lot of decks cannot deal with. Even "just" a turn 2 Mantis Rider is brutal, especially off a Noble Hierarch where you get the exalted trigger. The red bant list has the ability to put the opponent under a LOT of pressure very quickly, making it much better at getting under decks at the expense of some of the resilience of cards like Anafenza and Necromancer out of the black deck. Without the hand disruption from Sin Collector, you'll want to run some counter spells like Negate or Mana Leak in the sideboard to help fight pesky non-creature strategies.
My current "red bant" list, as an example (note: sideboard is very experimental right now):
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Voltaic Brawler
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
Spells (8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arashin Cleric
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Negate
1 Rest in Peace
2 Vithian Renegades
2 War Priest of Thune
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
I hope that breakdown helps!
1. Will 5 color be too difficult for me/have me run into too many issues of I needed that land but wasnt able to get it or it got taken out.
2. Would packing in too much stuff/colors dilute and make your deck too situation ally dependent/consistent enough.
3. Make sure you look into the advantages/disadvantages/challenges different colors can bring to Humans. Is it worth it long run.
4. Will 2 colors not have enough answers and limit you in your meta or in a blind meta.
5. Blood Moon or Magus can be your friend or a brutal annoyance.
6. Will having 5 color cost too much or worth the cost of mana base.
7. Just because 2/3/4/5 color works for one dosent mean it will work for you cause of variables like meta, play style, skill level, etc.
There are many good posts on here on the benefits of each color and why 1 players prefers 2/3/4/5. And this thread is still new and doesnt have 100's of pages to scroll through.
At this time Im still running Boros/Human Blitz version however it ha sits limitations and strengths that so far is worth it. Im experimenting with either a Naya or American build. Black has some good stuff but its not as good for me is Path > Push yet the hand disruption helps against combo. Ah the choices we make
On that note, would anyone be interested in a live stream where we test out some different Humans decks in Competitive or Friendly leagues on MTGO? I've got several Humans decks built out (including the two lists in my previous post) and would really like to be able to have some live games where we can discuss lines of play, card choices, sideboarding etc. And to be able to directly compare some of these decks. If there is some interest, what would be a good day and time?
I was browsing the GP Birmingham lists after seeing 4 Colour Humans made it onto camera for Round 5, and then noticed that someone Top 8'd with Bant Human Knightfall. Any thoughts on adding the Knightfall package to a humans deck? Seems like an option to me, you lose black's grind/disruption and red's damage/evasion (although you could maybe up the red mana and go 4 colour?), but you do get a Human that can be a 4/4 on turn 2, as well as an 'oops I win' combo, which could allow you to steal some games, as well as a searchable source of trample late game.
List here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpbir17/first-days-9-0-decks-grand-prix-birmingham-2017-08-13
My Starting List based on the above link
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
Spells (10)
3 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
2 Forest
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Path to Exile
2 Negate
2 Burrenton Forge Tender
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Stony Silence
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Eternal Witness
Kari Zev is a sort of placeholder in the deck, I don't know if the manabase as it stands is reliable enough for her turn 2, as it has a high fetch count, but fetching for red/white turn 2 might mess up future turns where we need green/blue. Skyship Plunderer or Jhessian Infiltrator maybe, or the 4th Path from the sideboard?
Given that losing black removes the disruptive elements that colour brings, I think you're looking to just smash face as a plan B, with Reflector Mage and 3 Mana Thalia messing up your opponent's blockers and givnig you big tempo swings. You could easily drop the Retreats and 2 Knights for the Mirran Crusaders and Eternal Witnesses if you expect a lot of hate in games 2 and 3 and just focus on the beatdown.
This might belong over on the Knightfall thread, but given that this is a Humans list at heart that splashes a combo, I've put it here. Thoughts?
The list that I was developing definitely needed some work (I.e. Dropping lightning mauler etc) but I liked the overall concept.
Would be interested to hear how you get on with the Human Knightfall list. I'm working on an Abzan Human list so will feedback results when I get to test it
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Will do. Early thoughts seem to be that it retains a lot of the Bant Humans style, but is slanted more towards an aggressive turning sideways plan rather than the disruption of Bant Black, but in the main deck it's not a major difference. I was running Mirran Crusader main, so you get plus points against certain decks there, but having a Knight of the Reliquary enter as a 4/4 oftentimes is helpful to avoid Bolt. Plus once you have a Knight or two out you can threaten a Kessig Wolf Run end of turn to trample over any blocker.
Although having to learn how the Retreat combo sequencing works is a bit of a headache for me starting out.
Effort has helped me vs ETron, Shadow and Knightfall. And Atarka's gives much more punch to a faster version. Still comparing whether the Boros or Naya version is a better option for me. Now I know we dont have generally a lot of slots for non creature cards in the main outside Path and Company for those in the CoCo version.
Round 1 vs. GB Tron. In the first game, he wins the die roll, then Tron piece 1-3, Karn, Ulamog, O Stone, another Ulamog. I had him at 7 life, but I literally have no chance. In the next game, he does Tron piece and Star, 2nd Tron piece and crack, Fatal Push a Champion of the Parish, turn 3 can't play Karn because Thalia is in play. Plays O Stone, then Ugin, then Ulamog and still has Wurmcoil Engine and Worldbreaker in hand. Scoop phase. I was a bit on tilt after this round, but honestly you can't do much about this. I remembered all of the complaining in the ban thread about Tron and I decided to just move on with my life. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. Burn with Shrine. In the first game, he starts off quickly, but I have Champion of the Parish and many Noble Hierarchs, which I pump with Gavony Township. I end up getting there, as he needed to crack the Shrine to kill the big Champion. Gavony gets my Hierarchs big enough to withstand the Goblin Guides that he drew. In the next game, I get Kambal, Consul of Allocation. He can't kill it and it wrecks him. His hand was a bit slow too, but Deflecting Palm on a Champ makes him lose 2 life and me only take 3 total. Kambal basically made this game easy, as a large Champion of the Parish ends up getting there. Good draws for me. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Jund Vine. This is the deck that Todd Anderson piloted this past weekend. I think there was a deck tech at SCG if anyone's interested. In the first game, he makes my 4 land hand discard a Champ. But I have another Champ and Noble Hierarch. He gets out Hollow One, but ends up getting severely mana flooded, as I Sin Collector him to see 3 lands in hand with 4 already in play. In the next game, he gets out 2 Vengevine and 2 Hollow One on turn 2. I look at my board and hand and scoop. In the final game, I play Noble Hierarch into Meddling Mage on Hollow One. I end up using Path to Exile EoT to remove a Goblin Guide from a potential block on my lethal Mirran Crusader. I show him the other Path to Exile and he scoops. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. Merfolk. Three Folk players here today. Nearly made me play Affinity today, but I figured I'd rather not dodge playing each of them. Game 1, I keep with 3 land, 2 creatures, and 2 Collected Company. I draw 2 more Company, but no 4th land. His creatures are too big for me. In the next game, I basically nut draws him with Champ into Noble Hierarch into Collected Company 2 Sin Collectors into Mayor of Avabruck and Thalia's Lieutenant. He looks at his turn 4 play and scoops. In the final game, I punted pretty badly. Firstly, I probably should have sided Orzhov Pontiff for his Master of Waves. But I figured 4 Reflector Mage and 4 Path to Exile should be enough, especially with Collected Company for at least 4 of those. Nope. He got one down, which was fine, but I attacked with my Thalia, Heretic Cathar, which allowed for him to draw and cast a Lord, activate Mutavault (he was at 4 mana), and attack with everything for exact lethal (5 Elementals get through and I'm at 10 life; he's at 3). The Thalia basically makes sure the Master of Waves can't attack because of his First Strike, at least until he casts a Lord and a Spreading Seas. I have 3 Reflector Mage (cast one mistakenly on a Vendilion Clique that I probably could have raced anyway) and 4 Path to Exile left in the deck to bounce the Master and swing for lethal. But I take the chance that he won't attack with the Master, but he makes the correct play of attacking with all of his creatures. The sad part is that I probably would have played it the same if given another chance. I was sick of battling top decks (he could draw 2-3 more Master of Waves to me not finding Path to Exile or Reflector Mage) and I felt that he wouldn't attack with the Master of Waves, for fear of losing it and all of the Elementals. Doesn't matter since it's lethal. I was somewhat upset about this, more so that I felt that I wouldn't take it back if I could. 1-2.
I finish 2-2 for the 2nd time. The 4th round was an obvious punt and should have been an easy victory probably. Oh well...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It's a MU where EE on 2 is insane.
One question: why did you keep Sin Col x2 post-SB ? To me, it seems like this is the card you wanna cut for Pontif...
Definitely agree that Pontiff is better than Sin Collector post board. Though I will say that I never bring in my Staticaster against Merfolk, because it is completely useless unless you manage to get it down before they drop one of their bazillion Lords. Seems to be mainly useful for Master of Waves tokens, I guess.
Yeah, you're certainly right. I had punted before I even began playing the 3rd game (perhaps even the 2nd game on the play, although I wanted to be aggressive in that one).
My thought for some number of Sin Collector was this. I just wanted to see his hand so it would make it easier for me to do an important Meddling Mage. Otherwise, I see a scenario where I name Lord of Atlantis and then lose to triple Master of the Pearl Trident. A fringe situation was that I wanted to also make sure that Vapor Snag was not in his hand, because I can see this messing up combat for me and swinging the game. The reason I didn't side in Orzhov Pontiff was because I felt it was not needed. I felt it was overkill since I have 4 Reflector Mage and 4 Path to Exile. Collected Company can also potentially pick up a Reflector Mage as well. I thought that the -1/-1 effect would be terrible in the mid game when there are 3-4 Lords out already. I failed to realize that I can't save Path to Exile for Master of Waves if I'm getting beat down by 3 Lords on turn 3. So that basically leaves me with 4 Reflector Mage, which I would also want to do on the potential Lords. I want more answers to Master of Waves than just that. I also figured that if a potential Master of Waves resolves with a lot of Elementals, I've probably lost already because there's multiple Lords out. I underestimated the card in the matchup. I don't actually have Izzet Staticaster in my list. I assumed that players either played Staticaster or Pontiff as a 2 of.
Thinking back, I should have sided differently. I probably shouldn't have even sided in Meddling Mage. It was kind of a cheeky play that I had hoped would work out okay for me. I ended up siding out 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and 1 Sin Collector for 2 Meddling Mage and Reclamation Sage (also saw Smuggler's Copters in the first game). Kind of an embarrassing side, but I'll admit it.
The sad part is that I assumed that he would draw a lot of Lords, but he only drew 2 Merrow Reejery and a Lord of Atlantis in game 1, a Lord of Atlantis in game 2 albeit he scooped before playing out turn 4, and a Lord of Atlantis in game 3 (I had locked up a Merrow Reejery with Meddling Mage).
*This is part of the problem with not testing with SB. I only tested the deck for 2 weeks against myself at home vs. around 3 decks (GDS, Titanshift, and Knightfall). This was my 2nd tournament with the deck, going 2-2 last FNM. But it's no excuse. I should have played a lot better. Not much I can do in Round 1, but shuffle my opponent's deck better, but Round 4 definitely was mine to win or lose.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Reflector Mage
Spells
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Negate
1 Unified Will
1 Stony Silence
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
This deck feels really sweet, especially the sideboard. I made a couple of notable changes from Sanchez's list. I removed Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and moved a copy of Retreat to Coralhelm to the sideboard. I added one Gavony Township because there are few cards better when going wide in modern. The third Eternal Witness was added because I wanted another three-drop and she is likely better than any of the alternatives.
On Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: The decks she's best against are in a downswing currently. There is also the ever-present friction with our own cards, Path to Exile and Collected Company. This sideboard is better against the 'unfair' decks than what I had been running, so the disruption provided by her just wasn't needed as much.
On Retreat to Coralhelm: This card can win games out of nowhere but takes quite a bit of life to combo off. That makes it somewhat of a liability against any kind of aggressive strategy. It is a card that gets sided out fairly often because of this. Bring the second copy in against decks that don't threaten life totals quickly or when you need to combo off faster than an opponent. If your local metagame doesn't have many aggro decks then feel free to run the second copy main over the third Eternal Witness. I did get to combo off turn three on the play against Ponza. That felt good.
On Reflector Mage: The last time I tried this card I didn't like it. Right now, I think it's busted. The format has become a bit more creature-dense and as a result there are few better tempo plays. I also have to admit that board interaction with Collected Company is pretty ruthless.
The Burrenton-Forge Tenders won me at least two games, one against Ponza and one against Burn. I don't know why I didn't have them before.
Izzet Staticaster is ridiculous against Counters Company. Just remember that it will kill every Noble Hierarch on the battlefield, not just theirs - unless Thalia's Lieutenant has boosted your own Nobles. My opponent was kind of salty about that one. The body count Staticaster racked up in one game was pretty ridiculous. First activation, two Vizier of Remedies died. Second was three Birds of Paradise. Finally found Lieutenant and got two Nobles with the third activation, which prompted a concession.
Negate is one of the best cards we can have against pretty much any of the combo decks and any deck with non-Supreme Verdict sweepers. If we have pressure on board, open mana, and one of these in hand, it often reads "you win the game". Unified Will is a card that I have been warming up to the more often I run into Primeval Titan. Obviously, you only want to board this card in when your opponent isn't running many creatures or removal. When it's good, though, it is a hard counter and is rarely seen coming.
Overall, my initial take on this list is that it feels more powerful and harder to beat than any of the other humans lists I have sleeved up, enough so that I am planning on tuning this for a SCG Modern Classic next month.
Having played Traditional Knightfall for almost 10 months, I understand the strengths of witness in the deck. That said, Humans Knightfall is a more aggressive/explosive version of the deck that is quite similar to my current favourite deck Rallier Zoo.
Regular Humans company can't really run rallier because they lack ways to trigger revolt reliably outside of the opponent's removal spells, the knightfall shell however with 8 fetchlands and Knight shenanigans can do so quite easily, and the humans part of the deck has multiple high value targets to recur like lieutenant, mayor, even just random dorks to double trigger a champion, utility lands and even some of the sideboard bullets.
In short, I think a 2-1 or 1-2 split instead of 3 eternal witness can provide humans knightfall with a very good mix of explosiveness and grind.
First of all i really like this thread! Cool to see Humans in modern again
Now... I wanted to share some thoughts and experience about modern humans with you.
I started playing humans back in standard 2013. I played the "Naya Blitz" list with Champion of the Parish, Burning-Tree Emissary, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc. Since than it is a pet deck of mine. Since 2016 i'm back into MTG and into modern!
The first deck i brought to my LGS was a "Naya Humans Aggro" list. It relies on the old "combo" of T1 Champion of the Parish, Burning-Tree Emissary into Lightning Mauler and a huge swing. Backed up with some Lightning Bolt and Atarka's Command.
It was a fun deck and i even did a 6-3 finish, after tilt in the last round, on a bigger tournament. My main problem with the Deck was that there was no "plan B" and it relied to heavy on the 2-Drops. The deck looked something like this:
Creatures (32)
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Experiment One
4x Monastery Swiftspear
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Thalia's Lieutnant
4x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Lightning Mauler
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Atarkas Command
2x Boros Charm
1x Path to Exile
Lands (19)
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
2x Temple Garden
2x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
After trying other decks like "Revolt Zoo", wich was a similar style of play, i want to focus on "Humans" again. I'm now playing the BantBlack version.
Creatures (31)
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Thalia's Lieutnant
4x Mayor of Avabruck
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Reflector Mage
2x Mirrancrusader
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Plains
2x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
1x Temple Garden
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Brass
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Meddling Mage
2x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Main problems:
Yeah, the lack of Noble Hierarch and Cavern of Souls. I know the cards are crazy good but i am to stingy to pay so much for 7 cards. I convinced myself to buy a Cavern of Souls each month. Maybe I will do the same with the Noble Hierarch. I replace them for now with Birds of Paradise. I like the colorfixing a lot wich allows to play either Reflector Mage or Anafenza, the Foremost. What else should I change in the Main?
Now some questions:
In some situations I don't know if it is better to play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or a 3-Drop (mostly Anafenza, the Foremost). What do you recommend? I am aware that it's always situationally but maybe there is a norm.
What do you think about Meddling Mage? I am not sure with this card. In wich match-ups is it good and what cards i want to name?
Sin Collector? If yes, how many in the main? Or in the board? In my testing it was one of the worst cards...
Is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben that good? Don't get me wrong... I love this card! Sometime she hits super hard but sometimes she does nothing.
What is your opinion on the Mana Dorks? I saw lists running 6 other 8. Would you run 4x Avacyn's Pilgrim and 2x Birds of Paradise in favor of two more 3-Drops? If so, wich 3-Drops? Please let me know.
What do you think on "Naya"? I saw this girl playing Naya at the GP in Birmingham. She played Magus of the Moon over Reflector Mage to mess with the opponents manabase. Also another sideboard plan. Is an aggro build like the Blitz version viable in the current meta (with some major tweaks of course)?
That should be all for now. Sorry if you find some mistakes... english is not my native language.
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Thanks for the post, I'm looking to take my Bant Black list and try the Knightfall package.
In terms of your list, how has running 8 mana dorks and fewer two drops felt? I'm always wary of having to make the jump from one to three mana in the face of removal, but I think most Humans lists suffer from too many options at 3CMC and not enough at 2. Thalia is the card that comes up in these discussions, as she can mess up our CoCos, which is frustrating, but in my limited experience our opponent is less happy to see her. I can see why you would take her out, but I'd be interested as to how you find your curve.
Thoughts on Eternal Witness? I agree that she is useful, and in my view better than Rallier in your list as CoCo and the 3 drops are what you probably want back most of the time rather than Lieutenant, which she can get anyway. Wondering how 3 copies has worked for you as statswise she doesn't offer much in terms of damage, so you rely a bit more on Knight to do the heavy lifting. Thalia, Heretic Cathar has always put in work for me.
It's also probably difficult to quantify, but have you noticed anything moving from 21 to 22 lands?
Interesting sideboard too, I agree hard counters like Negate are what I think the deck needs against our bad matchups to stop a combo or removal piece. I like the idea of being flexible with the two copies of Retreat, as I've been playing with two in main, but have also boarded them out for aggressive matches.