Maybe something weird with lands in Naya CoCo, borrowing ideas from the GW Company lists with both Thalias, Magus of the Moon, Ghost Quarter, Knight of the Reliquary, Tracker, Eternal Witness, Renegade Rallier.
Magus of the Moon is a little bit of a problem for a 3 colour deck as you could turn off your own lands, but the rest of the cards above give you a recursive land tax effect with Witness and Rallier to bring your Ghost Quarters back, then using Trackers and Knights to take advantage of land drops and fetches. Maybe a few Harsh Mentors to add some more ability hate. Probably too many 3 drops in my list, but an interesting idea!
It looks like it would do well when you're drawing the right ratio of humans and spells, and have some explosive starts (a la Burn) that get under some decks that other slower Human builds have trouble with. But at 22 humans I worry about running into hands with more burn than creatures, where Champion and Lieutenant become suboptimal. How often does this come up?
3 copies of Always Watching seems a little clunky outside of its payoff with Initiate. With enough Prowess triggers would Seeker of the way become better than Initiate? If so, it might be worth trading Always Watching for something like 2 more spells (Boros Charm? Smuggler's Copter?) and another Human (Magus of the Moon? Grim Lavamancer?)
The deck can have its good and slow starting hands, still the flexibility of burn to work as removal is great and can often give enough time for the finishers to enter the battle field.
Also, the multiple life gaining sources support this plan. It isnt bad to crash an exerted Glory-Bound Initiate for it.
There are times that lategame Champions and Lieutenants are just bodies for blocking... while the burn clock keeps ticking
After reading all pages, I suggest that the humans topic should be split into CoCo (several color combinations) and non-CoCo (mostly RW)
Personally, im using a boros brew that takes advantage of several cards in Ammonkhet. And its good to have choices, while CoCo relies on beat down to win, mine can both beat down and burn. That flexibility is worth exploring more IMHO
The main difference is that I choosed to replace PtE with more burn, which thanks to Soul-Scar Mage's influence allows my humans to take down fatties in combat (if they appear) or just aim it to my opponent's face for faster games.
I also primarily run Boros.....I run PtE as a must because of some fo the big threats that we need moved that Burn spells cant help. I run Burn as my primarily for a long time and over on the Burn forum PtE has become a must at least in side because 3 damage just isnt enough then factor in possible cards that bring creatures back fast or card like Kitchen Finks that can combo off into infinite life or delay us enough for them to do other stuff. I understand your reasoning for running Burn stuff over PtE and from my experience running many different Zoo variants PtE has been more handy in the long run. That said if your finding the Burn cards more helpful more power to ya.
All in all I really like you deck. As for splitting the discussion, the Company build has been the most talked about/uesd on here but other veraitions like mine have trickled in and out. I mentioned in another post the awesome versatility Human builds can be from 5 color to 1 color from quick/speed zoo to midrange or even a DnT/Control/denial type build. Options are a plenty. Whenever people popped into here with different builds I enjoy hearing their experiences and reasoning as also others do too. There is now specific 75 you have to use. We can all help each other, get different ideas and see whats work/no worked.
I also primarily run Boros.....I run PtE as a must because of some fo the big threats that we need moved that Burn spells cant help. I run Burn as my primarily for a long time and over on the Burn forum PtE has become a must at least in side because 3 damage just isnt enough then factor in possible cards that bring creatures back fast or card like Kitchen Finks that can combo off into infinite life or delay us enough for them to do other stuff. I understand your reasoning for running Burn stuff over PtE and from my experience running many different Zoo variants PtE has been more handy in the long run. That said if your finding the Burn cards more helpful more power to ya.
All in all I really like you deck. As for splitting the discussion, the Company build has been the most talked about/uesd on here but other veraitions like mine have trickled in and out. I mentioned in another post the awesome versatility Human builds can be from 5 color to 1 color from quick/speed zoo to midrange or even a DnT/Control/denial type build. Options are a plenty. Whenever people popped into here with different builds I enjoy hearing their experiences and reasoning as also others do too. There is now specific 75 you have to use. We can all help each other, get different ideas and see whats work/no worked.
Remember that a bolted Kitchen Finks while Soul-scar mage is on the battlefield wont return.
I understand the worry about fatties, as there are several that are problematic however most of them require work to play or take some time to get in play, which means that you have some time to get the game close to be finished.
Personally im never sad to draw a Path, however I feel comfortable with it in the sb.
So after playing both the redless version and blackless versions of the 4C Company deck, I still find myself leaning towards the blackless Mantis Rider list. It just seems to attack slightly faster and from more angles. As I've posted several times in here, I have been very pleased with Kari Zev, Skyship Raider at the 2 drop slot. I've also been experimenting with adding two more 3 drop creatures alongside the playsets of Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage, both of which continue to be allstars. The first card I tried there was Thalia, Heretic Cathar which has been very good in some circumstances, but not as good in others. I do like having the higher 3 drop density and the aggressiveness at the 2 drop slot, which got me exploring some other possible card choices. Alongside some sideboard tweaking, I am currently testing out the following list:
As you can see, there have been a few shifts at the 2 drop slot. Gone are the grindy card advantage engines of Duskwatch Recruiter and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and in their spot is the highly aggressive Voltaic Brawler. With that change, I wanted to find a way to keep at least some card advantage in the deck, as I don't like relying purely on Collected Company. So I'm trying out Rogue Refiner. It's nice because it simply draws a card on ETB. No need for it to untap, no need for something juicy to be in the graveyard...no external conditions required. Not only that, but it's a decent body AND it provides extra energy to pump into Voltaic Brawler. So I think those additions go very nicely hand in hand.
In the sideboard, you'll notice the addition of Vithian Renegades. I wanted targeted artifact removal for annoying stuff like Aether Vial and Ensnaring Bridge. And while I could get more card coverage with something like Reclamation Sage, I really like sticking with the Humans theme as much as possible. And heck, it paid off in my very first game drawing it - I had 2 Champion of the Parish on board against BW Death and Taxes with a Vial on 2 and an otherwise empty board. I play Renegades, target the Vial, pump the two Champs (one of them to 3/3). They Vial in a Thalia in response and I attack with the 3/3 Champ. A couple of turns later, I Collected Company into a pair of Thalia's Lieutenants, making Renegades a 5/4 and forcing them to double block it with the aforementioned Thalia along with a Wasteland Strangler, effectively making Renegades a 3 for 1. Scenarios like that are exactly why I wanted to stick with the Human theme, as it ended up being very relevant. Obviously it may or may not be worth the extra sideboard slots, especially in modern, but I've built the deck in a way that I have a couple of flex spots to play with.
All in all, in my initial testing with Voltaic Brawler and Rogue Refiner, I've been quite pleased. Brawler is a brick house on its own, and is great against otherwise annoying road blocks like Young Pyromancer and various other token spells. With any single lord or exalted trigger, it's a 5/4 trampler for 2, which is pretty dang close to being a Tarmogoyf when attacking. I think the aggressive slant of the 2 drop slot is going to pay dividends - as much as I love Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and to a lesser extent, Duskwatch Recruiter, they're often not what I want in the early game when I wanna get the opponent on the back foot. But I still love my card advantage, so we'll see how Rogue Refiner does. So far it's been a card that I am very happy to draw and play, so it's promising so far. I'll definitely be testing out both Mantis Rider decks and see how they compare in the long run.
Round 1 vs. Affinity. I keep a 1 lander on the draw. I peel 7 lands in 8 draws and lose to mana flood. He draws some gas and his Etched Champion has my 1 threat in check (a Thalia's Lieutenant). In the next game, I have a Collected Company and play it, putting double Orzhov Pontiff into play. He had to read the card. Before that was some Path to Exile and Reflector Mage and I get there with some medium beats. In the last game, I have some defense again, but he goes in for 6 poison with a Cranial Plating while I'm tapped out. I don't mind much because I have pressure AND Path to Exile for next turn. Casting an Orzhov Pontiff for +1/+1 will knock him down 14 life to 3, so I hold up Path to Exile instead (I only have 1 White source and 2 Cavern of Souls (drew a total of 7 to 1 CoCo in this match). He draws and then plays...wait for it...Thoughtseize and I scoop. Maybe I should make him take the Path to Exile, but I doubt he is that stupid to take the Pontiff over it when I have nothing else. I told him that it was good he had that in his opener. He said he top decked it. 1-2.
Round 2 vs. Abzan Traverse. After some mulls, I get run over by a Grim Flayer and a Tarmogoyf. In the next game, I mull again, but come back with 3 consecutive Collected Company. Does that make up for Round 1? I get there, despite the first one getting a single Thalia's Lieutenant. The others are ridiculous. In the last game, Rest in Peace just destroys him. I draw another, but don't play it. I think that was a mistake, but I have enough pressure to get past a few Souls tokens. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Zoo. In the first game, he just rushes me. I Collected Company for some defense, but with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben being my largest creature, I can't get there. In the next game, he keeps the pressure on, but I have some Reflector Mages. The problem? After I Sin Collector him, taking a Lightning Bolt, his next 3 draws are Dromoka's Command and double Path to Exile, which take both of my Mirran Crusaders. I CoCo, getting a Noble Hierarch and an Avacyn's Pilgrim. It's somewhat close again, but he just has larger creatures. I seriously need something like double Thalia's Lieutenant and some early Champion of the Parish. Rough beats. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. BW Planeswalker Pox. He gets stuck on 2 land, but I have no pressure. I Sin Collector a Fatal Push to see double Liliana of the Veil, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Sorin. I don't have much pressure and when he's at 2 life, he gets the lands, makes me sacrifice some creatures with Lilies and then gets me low with the other Planeswalkers. He's over 20 when he wins. In the next game, I land a turn 2 Mayor of Avabruck. It ends up flipping. He ends up doing triple Smallpox, which has ruined me in the past, but I draw some lands, have a Noble Hierarch and keep sacrificing Wolves to the Pox. I end up getting there with that Werewolf. In the last game, I have just enough disruption, with a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to him having 4 land in play with double Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Wrath of God. Whew! Lucky me. I only had 2 land in play, but the next card was a land to put in Mirran Crusader if I got board wiped. I don't know if it would have been enough, but I don't have to know because he had 3 five drops because of the Thalia tax and only 4 land. 2-1.
Rough evening for me as I have been going 3-1 for the past 2 months or so here. But I'm usually on Titanshift.
Private Mod Note
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
One player here recommanded (or at least was very pleased with) Engineered Explosives and I believe that it's a very good card in the archetype.
It hits Merfolk, Elves, Affi, and more out of the radar decks like Infect, Cheerios, Bogles, Lantern. It fixes the issue of Izzet Staticaster not being able to do its job through lord effects or pump effects. The MUs I quote are mostly even or slightly unfavorable (depending on the toss and how G1 went), so EE ain't a cute option. It is denied by our own Stony Silences but it doesn't matter, any of these cards alone wins us the game.
I did make a split with Blessed Alliance, because besides Burn and E Tron, the applications of both cards overlap.
Another card I want to bring to the table is the good old Disenchant. In case of Blood Moon and Nexus environments, it's clearly a better choice than Rec Sage, Fragmentize, Vithian Ren. In my list, I don't run a basic Forest, so Qasali Pridemage became awkward against Moon effects, Spreading Seas, Fulminator Mages and such. Decks that involve such problematic matters are Merfolk, Elves, LE, U Moon, Ponza, Boros Prison, some BGx decks, Affi, Infect, Delver, Saheeli combo, various Jeskais....
Just food for thought.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I don't think that watering down the creature count with a spell that can be easily replaced by a creature is a good idea. And not running a basic forest seems like a bad idea. Having a green non-Cavern source of mana is needed to cast Collected Company, and it will give you more/better outs against Blood Moon when you can hit creatures like Rec Sage, War Priest, etc.
I'm definitely on 2 Explosives and am not going back until I see a meta shift. The cards so good in our bad matchups. I'm just struggling with hard control and any Valakut based deck. I'm consistently 4-1 ing friendly leagues on MTGO I just need to find a way to push through Valakut and Control. Any suqqesrions are good. I'd prefer flexible cards though. I'm in bant
headminerve have you tried Trinket Mage + EE? Making EE findable by CoCo could be strong. But Trinket Mage does become a bad card if you already have EE. Perhaps already having EE puts you in a favorable enough position for this to not matter, though?
On that note. I wonder if Trinket Mage with more than just Engineered Explosives has any merit.
For instance, running a single Mishra's Bauble and Darksteel Citadel to make the first one significantly less bad main deck in the case where you don't need Engineered Explosives (Either to just draw a card and see your opponent's next draw if you don't really need anything in particular, or Citadel if you really want to guarantee that you make that 4th mana drop for Collected Company on the next turn), and in the side deck using Dispeller's Capsule and Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt as enchantment/graveyard hate, along with a single Pithing Needle for devoted druid combo, as well Gavony Township/Knightfall/Planeswalker based win conditions and a Chalice of the Void for Restore Balance and Living End (X=0) or control (x=1) (which can be cast through using Cavern of Souls) as they can be fetched by Trinket Mage.
I gave this a quick try online against Naya Zoo and Jeskai Control, and Trinket Mage was a star in both matches, getting Engineered Explosives against Zoo, which completely turned around round 1. I didn't draw it round 2, but I would have been happy to topdeck at any point in the game, but the deck just won on its own before I drew it.
Against Jeskai Control I played it turn 2, but I went had no idea what they were playing, so I just grabbed my Darksteel Citadel which let me Collected Company Turn 3, for a Sin Collector and a Thalia, which showed Emrakul, Double Reflector Mage, and land with no non-creature spells. So I just went full aggro and ran them over before they topdecked verdict.
Game 2 I put in Pithing Needle, and Chalice of the Void. I got a fairly good aggro start though, and went with that, playing turn 3 Sin Collector to scout for Verdict/Wrath of God instead of Trinket Mage. Turn 4 was Collected Company, which hit Trinket mage #2 and a Hierarch, so I grabbed Chalice of the Void, then on 5 went for Sin Collector taking Cryptic Command, and then Chaliced for X = 1, at which point they conceded.
Very small sample size, and I did get quite fortunate, but I did like the feel of the Trinket Mage package, and I'll definitely test it some more once I have the time.
I attended GP Birmingham last weekend – my first GP – and ended up going 5-4 with Bant Black Humans, losing Round 9 for my chance to make Day 2. I learnt a lot about playing Modern in general, and made some bad decisions that I’ll learn from (City of Brass is not an okay 1 land keep against Burn!). I think it was really helpful to play the deck in a big tournament, to get a feel of how the deck plays out and which cards you want to see and which you’re not as keen on.
General thoughts/comments
• The Humans deck can be “fast”, which was a comment several of my opponents made. In some games having the Champion, Mana dork, Lieutenant, Mayor, 3 land opening hand felt pretty unbeatable on the play.
• The Humans deck can also disrupt and stall. I played Grixis Death’s Shadow Round 8, and fought through Kolaghan’s Command, Fatal Push, Thoughtseize, both three drop Lili’s, Gurmag Angler and Death’s Shadows. Even with all of this, I was able to keep the pressure up with Reflector Mages bouncing things, making big threats, and then landing Mirran Crusader, which is the trump card. A high creature count definitely helps to keep topdecking something to put on the board until you hit a Collected Company.
• Thalia and Thalia are great. Thalia Guardian of Thraben is sometimes a pain for us, but I feel she definitely messes up things for our opponents more often than for us. They really slow our opponent down, and help us press home a quick start and keep the pressure on.
Matchups I’d like thoughts/help on
• Valakut/Scapeshift.
This feels like a terrible matchup. I was 1-2 against it, but my win came from my opponent having 8-9 ands and no payoff in either game. The other two games I couldn’t do anything, they just gathered their lands, played a Sakura Tribe Elder and then boom 18 damage pointed at my head (you’re almost certainly taking 2 damage from lands in this deck every game, and usually more). As Canuckistan1 posted, I’m in need of ideas for this matchup. Specific hate through a Meddling Mage is no good as they have so many ways to ramp (Khalni Heart, Sakura Tribe, Hour of Promise, Scapeshift, Primetime, Farseek, Search for Tomorrow), and you probably need to save the hate for Anger of the Gods. I can’t see a creature that fits what we need, Kambal and Sin Collector are helpful along with the Thalia’s, but it just doesn’t feel enough. Do we have to go for a non-creature spell like Negate or Unified Will to give us the catch-all answer we need in this matchup, or a Repel the Abominable or two?
• Burn.
With our land base I think we help them quite a bit, and we need a quick start to keep up. My opponent played the match well I thought as he went after my creatures early to stop me developing any kind of threat, and then went after my face in the later turns. He also had mainboard Searing Blood which did good work against me. I didn’t bring much in the sideboard for Burn – Kambal was my hope, but I didn’t see him. I know people have talked about life-gaining Humans on here as a sideboard option, maybe something in that as our mana base typically leaves us at 18 if not 15 some games. What do people bring in for Burn?
The other matchups I had felt okay.
• Affinity is a race, being on the play is huge to develop a board or get disruption down before they dump their hand.
• UR Tron was interesting, but felt too slow against us if they don’t Tron – I got caught out with Kozilek’s Return as I wasn’t familiar with the matchup, and Ugin is game over, but it seemed to take a while to get itself setup, which we can take advantage of.
• Dredge was fine, lose game 1, bring in hate, and draw your disruptive creatures. Again, Thalia put in work here, making creatures enter tapped and then bouncing them back to my opponent’s hand with a Reflector Mage.
• Death’s Shadow is a grindfest, Rest in Peace did a lot of work, as did Eternal Witness bringing back a Thoughtseized 2mana Thalia to slow him down. Reflector Mage is great here too, and Mirran Crusader forces them to be running Bolt or a sweeper.
Moving Forward
• The 2 drop slot is a bit of an issue for Bant Black. Red has some good choices here – Harsh Mentor, Kari Zev, Voltaic Brawler all have merit, and I’d consider any of them if they were Bant colours. Of the available options, Dark Confidant interests me because card draw is fantastic, but my main concern is that he is black, which is our 4th colour (mainly due to Noble Hierarch not tapping for black), which could be awkward if we want him out turn 2. Anyone have any spicy tech at 2CMC? On my shortlist are Grand Abolisher, Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Skyship Plunderer.
• Some draws can feel a little awkward as our curve takes a dip at 2CMC. The hands where you have a mana dork, 2 lands and three drops feel awful if they have removal for your dork. Not sure what the answer is here, I think it’s a result of the colours and deck. Functional reprint of Thalia’s Lieutenant in Ixalan would be nice!
• Mayor of Avabruck. I guess he kind of sums up the previous two points. I feel for some people he is just in as the 59th and 60th cards because he is a two drop and offers an anthem. I do like him, and played three in my list. He is pretty bad on his own, but also won me several games due to his extra pump.
• Changes to mainboard – I want to try something more aggressive. Until someone finds a good idea for Valakut/Scapeshift I think the best way forward is to get under some of these problematic decks, and as Kingcars said be more proactive. I’m going to go up to 4 Mayors, and add in a couple of Silverblade Paladins. Giving double strike to a big Champion or Lieutenant seems ideal for speeding up the clock, and 3 Mana Thalia and Anafenza are more than happy to have double strike. Drop an Avacyn’s Pilgrim and move the Mirran Crusaders to the side, as they are good against Death's Shadow and Dredge, but worse against other decks that don't run heavy green or black.
Ramble over, I’ll try and tidy this up later.
Also - thoughts on 3 or 4 Path to Exile main deck? I think we want the 4 copies in the 75, but is a good idea to put the 4th in the sideboard so we have another slot for control/non-interactive matchups?
^Nice post. I'm on a very similar list to yours, and can corroborate most of your impressions based on my own testing.
Anyone have any spicy tech at 2CMC? On my shortlist are Grand Abolisher, Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Skyship Plunderer.
My spice of choice at 2 CMC over the last few weeks has been Saffi Eriksdotter, Qasali Pridemage, and Phantasmal Image. Image is one of the highest-upside cards in the deck, but it's also terrible in other situations. I'll almost certainly end up cutting it for a Mayor before bringing it to the local tourney in a few days. Saffi isn't a very aggressive card, but the wording on her ability means that we can protect important creatures like Anafenza or either Thalia while generating another EtB trigger for Champs and Lieutenants. Pridemage's utility is well known; whether one merits a maindeck slot is a meta call, and for me, the answer is yes.
Also - thoughts on 3 or 4 Path to Exile main deck? I think we want the 4 copies in the 75, but is a good idea to put the 4th in the sideboard so we have another slot for control/non-interactive matchups?
I've been playing a 3/1 main/side split for Path. 3 Paths and the massive advantage of Reflector Mage is more than enough for creature-heavy matchups, which tend to be favorable in the first place. In place of the 4th Path, I'm maining an Echoing Truth, which provides a second maindeck answer (alongside Pridemage) to cards like Bridge, Worship, and Phyrexian Unlife, along with its other applications: sweeping tokens, bouncing planeswalkers, Delve creatures, Griselbrand, or multiples of whatever the enemy is running.
^Nice post. I'm on a very similar list to yours, and can corroborate most of your impressions based on my own testing.
Anyone have any spicy tech at 2CMC? On my shortlist are Grand Abolisher, Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Skyship Plunderer.
My spice of choice at 2 CMC over the last few weeks has been Saffi Eriksdotter, Qasali Pridemage, and Phantasmal Image. Image is one of the highest-upside cards in the deck, but it's also terrible in other situations. I'll almost certainly end up cutting it for a Mayor before bringing it to the local tourney in a few days. Saffi isn't a very aggressive card, but the wording on her ability means that we can protect important creatures like Anafenza or either Thalia while generating another EtB trigger for Champs and Lieutenants. Pridemage's utility is well known; whether one merits a maindeck slot is a meta call, and for me, the answer is yes.
Also - thoughts on 3 or 4 Path to Exile main deck? I think we want the 4 copies in the 75, but is a good idea to put the 4th in the sideboard so we have another slot for control/non-interactive matchups?
I've been playing a 3/1 main/side split for Path. 3 Paths and the massive advantage of Reflector Mage seems to be more than enough for creature-heavy matchups, which tend to be favorable in the first place. In place of the 4th Path, I'm maining an Echoing Truth, which provides a second maindeck answer (alongside Pridemage) to cards like Bridge, Worship, and Phyrexian Unlife, along with its other applications: sweeping tokens, bouncing planeswalkers, Delve creatures, Griselbrand, or multiples of whatever the enemy is running.
Matchups I’d like thoughts/help on
• Valakut/Scapeshift.
This feels like a terrible matchup. I was 1-2 against it, but my win came from my opponent having 8-9 ands and no payoff in either game. The other two games I couldn’t do anything, they just gathered their lands, played a Sakura Tribe Elder and then boom 18 damage pointed at my head (you’re almost certainly taking 2 damage from lands in this deck every game, and usually more). As Canuckistan1 posted, I’m in need of ideas for this matchup. Specific hate through a Meddling Mage is no good as they have so many ways to ramp (Khalni Heart, Sakura Tribe, Hour of Promise, Scapeshift, Primetime, Farseek, Search for Tomorrow), and you probably need to save the hate for Anger of the Gods. I can’t see a creature that fits what we need, Kambal and Sin Collector are helpful along with the Thalia’s, but it just doesn’t feel enough. Do we have to go for a non-creature spell like Negate or Unified Will to give us the catch-all answer we need in this matchup, or a Repel the Abominable or two?
I think that Negate is a generally good sideboard card to have regardless, as it hits a lot of the decks we're weak against. But outside of that, we'd really have to look at something like Runed Halo or Leyline of Sanctity to increase percentage points in this matchup. It's just a case of the metagame of Modern being super wide, so it's hard/impossible to prepare for EVERYTHING.
• Burn.
With our land base I think we help them quite a bit, and we need a quick start to keep up. My opponent played the match well I thought as he went after my creatures early to stop me developing any kind of threat, and then went after my face in the later turns. He also had mainboard Searing Blood which did good work against me. I didn’t bring much in the sideboard for Burn – Kambal was my hope, but I didn’t see him. I know people have talked about life-gaining Humans on here as a sideboard option, maybe something in that as our mana base typically leaves us at 18 if not 15 some games. What do people bring in for Burn?
You'll get a lot of differing opinions on this, but I'm a fan of Arashin Cleric. It's cheap, easy on the mana, blocks well, and has very concrete value since its effect is upon ETB. A lot of the other options are too expensive or too situational for my liking and don't provide enough upside to make up for it. I like to lean out my deck (take out the slower, more expensive stuff) against Burn because our individual card quality is higher, so the main thing we'll lose to is not being able to hold off the early pressure. Things should be stabilized by turn 3 or turn 4. You want to get on the board early and easily against decks like Burn and force them to have specific answers at specific times.
Moving Forward
• The 2 drop slot is a bit of an issue for Bant Black. Red has some good choices here – Harsh Mentor, Kari Zev, Voltaic Brawler all have merit, and I’d consider any of them if they were Bant colours. Of the available options, Dark Confidant interests me because card draw is fantastic, but my main concern is that he is black, which is our 4th colour (mainly due to Noble Hierarch not tapping for black), which could be awkward if we want him out turn 2. Anyone have any spicy tech at 2CMC? On my shortlist are Grand Abolisher, Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Skyship Plunderer.
The bant black list that I have been trying, which I posted a page or two back, runs Skyship Plunderer at the 2 spot. The redless 4C deck definitely struggles with evasion, so Plunderer helps fill that gap. It also has the ability to take over a game by itself, which is nice. But it's still not quite to the level of Kari Zev, Skyship Raider or Voltaic Brawler. This is one of the reasons why I prefer the Mantis Rider deck; it aggros much better at the 2 drop slot, and the 3 drop slot is also more aggressive and less situational. Sin Collector is simply not good enough to be maindeck in my opinion (outside of specific metas, obviously). Anafenza, the Foremost (the #1 biggest draw to splashing black, imo) is a total house but can't be played in multiples. The rest of the good 3 drop options are also available to the Mantis Rider deck. The main upside of the black version is the sideboard, which isn't *THAT* much better. Blue gets counter spells, Izzet Staticaster and Meddling Mage, so it's close.
• Some draws can feel a little awkward as our curve takes a dip at 2CMC. The hands where you have a mana dork, 2 lands and three drops feel awful if they have removal for your dork. Not sure what the answer is here, I think it’s a result of the colours and deck. Functional reprint of Thalia’s Lieutenant in Ixalan would be nice!
This could be for most likely one of two reasons:
1) Keeping too many hands that are soft to T1 removal.
2) The curve of the deck is a bit off.
I obviously can't comment on #1, but on #2, I personally run 10 1 drops, 11 2 drops and 10 3 drops. It looks like your configuration is 11 1 drops, 9 2 drops and 11 3 drops. So maybe the 2 cmc spot is a little bit light.
As for the last part, I actually don't think Humans needs more lords. I think Humans needs more standalone great 2 drops (and I would love a 3 drop that could better fill the 9th and 10th 3 drop slots, but that's another discussion), which is why I've been advocating Kari Zev, Skyship Raider and Voltaic Brawler. It's great to have lord effects, but with how much removal is out there, we need threats that can stand on their own. As I discussed above, this is one of the reasons to run red instead of black, in my opinion.
• Mayor of Avabruck. I guess he kind of sums up the previous two points. I feel for some people he is just in as the 59th and 60th cards because he is a two drop and offers an anthem. I do like him, and played three in my list. He is pretty bad on his own, but also won me several games due to his extra pump.
Even though I have been slowly trimming him from my lists (started at 4, now at 2), I still think it's a great card. There is a bit of an art when it comes to knowing when to flip him and when not to flip him. Do not underestimate the flip side of Mayor, as it can very easily take over a game.
• Changes to mainboard – I want to try something more aggressive. Until someone finds a good idea for Valakut/Scapeshift I think the best way forward is to get under some of these problematic decks, and as Kingcars said be more proactive. I’m going to go up to 4 Mayors, and add in a couple of Silverblade Paladins. Giving double strike to a big Champion or Lieutenant seems ideal for speeding up the clock, and 3 Mana Thalia and Anafenza are more than happy to have double strike. Drop an Avacyn’s Pilgrim and move the Mirran Crusaders to the side, as they are good against Death's Shadow and Dredge, but worse against other decks that don't run heavy green or black.
Ramble over, I’ll try and tidy this up later.
As I mentioned before, the red splash is definitely more aggressive than the black splash, so if you have the ability and desire to make the switch, I would definitely recommend it. Silverblade Paladin is a tricky proposition with how much removal is floating around these days, but I'd be interested in hearing how it performs. I feel like the double strike would be most relevant with evasive cards, as the ground pounders can easily be chump blocked.
Also - thoughts on 3 or 4 Path to Exile main deck? I think we want the 4 copies in the 75, but is a good idea to put the 4th in the sideboard so we have another slot for control/non-interactive matchups?
I run 4 in the main. We will always need a card that can unconditionally clear a wide swath of blockers in the format. I wouldn't run less than 3 main and would highly recommend the 4th if it can be squeezed in. I also think that, especially in such a wide meta like Modern, it's very important to have a "generically good" main deck configuration with cards that are also easy to side out. When I'm up against a control deck, for example, it's easy to take out 4 Paths and bring in 4 Negate. But against almost every other deck, Path is a key piece to have regularly.
I don't think that watering down the creature count with a spell that can be easily replaced by a creature is a good idea. And not running a basic forest seems like a bad idea. Having a green non-Cavern source of mana is needed to cast Collected Company, and it will give you more/better outs against Blood Moon when you can hit creatures like Rec Sage, War Priest,
It's not a bad idea to play the better SB card in a given list. As long as I play 27 creatures, I'm fine with 4 Cocos, and I usually cut 1 when I go lower than 27, which is specific to a very few MUs. With better stand-alone creatures and no combo, we're not a Coco deck comparable to Elves or Vizier, where they need the critical mass of creatures even post-SB.
Not running a basic Forest has nothing to do with casting Coco in a non-Moon situation. I play all the green sources I need to cast Coco: it's highly unlikely to have 4 mana sources but no green.
Now yes, Moon is a problem, and it is one even with a basic forest to be fair. Fulmi is also incredibly annoying from the moment there's a fourth colour in the list. My cut of the forest is greedy, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's a mistake in my list or in the current metagame, where Moon decks aren't at the top. I just bring the good news it's doable, and that I'll get back to a forest when the meta shifts to Moons.
headminerve have you tried Trinket Mage + EE? Making EE findable by CoCo could be strong. But Trinket Mage does become a bad card if you already have EE. Perhaps already having EE puts you in a favorable enough position for this to not matter, though?
No and I won't. Explosives are a great answer to fast decks (see the archetypes I mentionned), while Trinket is the slowest thing ever. It's already bad in UB Tezz, and hardly decent in Ux Tron, plus the SB slots are super tight in Humans.
Very small sample size, and I did get quite fortunate, but I did like the feel of the Trinket Mage package, and I'll definitely test it some more once I have the time.
Citadel in a 4 colour deck is bad. Bauble is only playable when built around (Artifact-centric, Delirium, Tarmo), not as a random target for a bad creature.
Playing 4 in your list is obviously a stretch to test the card, but even as a one-of, there's too many MUs where Explosives is useless. If I were you I'd drop the idea right away, the card received not enough support these last years, and is played nowhere because it became obsolete material a while ago.
@WanganMidnight
Your impressions are accurate, SavageGaul and Kingcars brought trustful advice.
I would add the 2-drop slot is also a matter of meta at this point. Most options players propose here (along with a great personal feedback) are playable and can make the cut. So either a bomb is printed and everybody will play 4 copies (2-3 for a Legend), or each meta we expect will drive our choices.
Burn consistency is its numero uno strength in the format. While Humans need to draw good SB cards, Burn players just have to draw average. Path in the opening hand is the best start to have. If you deal with their only beater, then you don't have to play creatures in curve, so you can fetch tapped lands and curve your creatures one turn late.
The one card that may break them in half is Leyline of Sanctity, all the other cards just help but don't steal the game on their own. Auriok Champion on T2 is probably the best play you can make, as it's a X-for-1 they can't compensate easily: it blocks their first attacker, punishes them for playing creatures, and can't prevent all the lifegain since there's more creatures than Skullcrack effects in the game.
Valakut isn't a bad MU if your deck is built to fight combo decks. Kambal is over-estimated, so even though it seems to fight combos well, it doesn't combat them all equally well. Counterspells do. Collective Brutality would be a fine option for Burn, creatureless combos and control. The obvious and brainless human/creature options aren't necessarily the better SB options, which leads back to my comment about Disenchant...
The 4th Path in the SB is completely fine, it's a metagame call.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Thanks everyone for the feedback and discussion. Definitely lots to think about and try!
Agree that my curve was a little off, which probably led to some weak keeps. I think that a strong 2-drop could make a big difference, maybe a pirate from Ixalan will help this slot? I do like the idea of Skyship Plunderer, I had a WU Humans deck in standard which I was trialling when Marvel was legal, and Plunderer was an good card there.
Some good points made about evasion, which Bant Black lacks. I'll try Silverblade Paladin, but might need to try something else to get the damage through. My trawl through Gatherer threw up some weird and wonderful humans - Captain of the Mists, Bant Battlemage and Skinshifter, which offer evasion for mana. Maulfist Revolutionary is certainly strong in standard WG Humans, and trample is helpful.
@WanganMidnight
Your impressions are accurate, SavageGaul and Kingcars brought trustful advice.
I would add the 2-drop slot is also a matter of meta at this point. Most options players propose here (along with a great personal feedback) are playable and can make the cut. So either a bomb is printed and everybody will play 4 copies (2-3 for a Legend), or each meta we expect will drive our choices.
Burn consistency is its numero uno strength in the format. While Humans need to draw good SB cards, Burn players just have to draw average. Path in the opening hand is the best start to have. If you deal with their only beater, then you don't have to play creatures in curve, so you can fetch tapped lands and curve your creatures one turn late.
The one card that may break them in half is Leyline of Sanctity, all the other cards just help but don't steal the game on their own. Auriok Champion on T2 is probably the best play you can make, as it's a X-for-1 they can't compensate easily: it blocks their first attacker, punishes them for playing creatures, and can't prevent all the lifegain since there's more creatures than Skullcrack effects in the game.
Valakut isn't a bad MU if your deck is built to fight combo decks. Kambal is over-estimated, so even though it seems to fight combos well, it doesn't combat them all equally well. Counterspells do. Collective Brutality would be a fine option for Burn, creatureless combos and control. The obvious and brainless human/creature options aren't necessarily the better SB options, which leads back to my comment about Disenchant...
Some interesting points here, which I agree with. The two drop slot could do with a standout card alongside the pump and Thalia options.
Auriok Champion is on my radar as an anti-red card. As you said, Burn just needs an average draw and they feel like they are favoured, they definitely punish weak or slow keeps. She's not quite Ondu Cleric for Allies, but might be worth a try for red matchups.
I think you might be right, for Valakut countermagic is the answer. Kambal, Sin Collector and Negate/Mana Leak/Unified Will should be enough disruption to slow them down.
As for Disenchant, it's a great single card answer, albeit one that does not come attached to a creature. Meta call I guess if you really need single target removal over broader artifact hate like Stony and Kataki, and narrower options like Qasali, Rec Sage, War Priest and Renegades don't fit your deck.
All right all as probably the only Humans and Burn player on here that posts some what regularly. A couple of points to help y'all.
1. Burn wins with redundancy and consistent damage however whats even more key is the timing. Example, if you bring in Feed the Clan beware most people dont have more then 2 to 3 life gain Instants yet Burn runs 4 to 8 Skullcrack/Atarka's so timing when you gain that life is key cause lots of times Burn is waiting for it. 2 to 3 vs 4 to 8, odds favor Burn.
2. Skullcrack and Path has helped neutralize some what Kor and Auriok and can do to Burn.
3. Leyline is a good card when you can get it turn 0 to slow Burn a few turns but good luck if you have to hard cast it as Burn generally sides in Artifact/Enchantment answers.
4. Burn preys on decks like Humans cause it has a bunch of 2 for 1 cards that give it advantage like Searing Blaze and/or Searing Blood creature kill face damage, Smash to Smithereens/Destructive Revelry knock out a hate card and do damage, Skullcrack/Atarka's stop life gain and damage to face.
5. Multi color decks that take 4-6 damage the first 2 turns really help Burn. Heck 1 guy who knew I was playing Burn and still did 9 damage for me.......I know fetching basics isnt always an option but cards like Inspiring Vantage do help.
So how to beat Burn using the Human shell....
Option 1 out race using a midrange or 22-24 land build, not likely.
Option 2 side in life gain or anti Burn stuff, possible but got to time it right and heck just draw that card, 2 or 3 out of 60 when you need it, rough.
Option 3 accept the loss and just fold, no way Im a fighter
Consider your meta and how much you see Burn, is it worth it to waste spots on an already tough match cause ya cant side for everything.
When I run Humans and have to deal with Burn, game 1 if Burn goes first its almost always a loss unless they mana flood or just have 1 land until I own the board and attack quick. I run a 20 land speed/blitz style Humans and if I go first the match up isnt as bad as I can sometimes out race. In games 2 and 3 since I run 4 Leylines for Grixis and a few other decks I use them here but if I dont get it turn 0 it wont do much.
Now each situation is different and this is some general info/tips but not hard fast rules for those that run a midrange/22-24 land build.
1. Lets say Burn goes first and drops turn 2 Eidolon taping them out then on your turn 2 you drop land if you have Feed the Clan or Hereos' Reunion use it even if its an Instant and on your turn. That extra life can buy you and extra turn or 2 will help you stabilize the board and possibly get that 4 or 5 land out to do something big like your creatures are now out of Bolt range and you can over run Burn. Watch for Deflecting Palm if your in game 2 or
3. If in game 2 or 3 you and wanna cast lifegain and you see 2 or 3 open mana good chance you could be baited into Skullcrack. There are times its better to cast it their turn after their tapped out or in response to something that taps them out.
2. Burn has trouble with the redundancy of Merfolk and all those Lords pumping creatures out of Bolt range and the ability to lock out their White or Green mana source slowing down Burn since at least 1/3 of the deck needs that 2nd color land. How does this apply to Humans, Land destruction lands and stabilizing the board.
3. The majority of Burn players do not run sweepers like Anger, Flamebreak, Volcanic Fallout at this time but has done so in the past and will again in the future if needed. Other decks that are quick like Elves, Affinity, Speed Zoo can give Burn issues. What can a slower deck take from that, Burn is more worried about Tron, Shadow and big creatures so Path can help them there and Palm can be a game ender. Try to focus more on equal pumping with Thalia's to whatevers on the board rather then having Thalia get big and attacking with 1 big creature that can be hit with Palm.
Now please dont pull the "well if you do this I can do that" stuff cause we can go on all day with you counter my move then I counter your counter and so on. These are tips not the gospel. Good luck I hope some of this helps.
(probably another brew idea that'll end up being terrible )
Magus of the Moon is a little bit of a problem for a 3 colour deck as you could turn off your own lands, but the rest of the cards above give you a recursive land tax effect with Witness and Rallier to bring your Ghost Quarters back, then using Trackers and Knights to take advantage of land drops and fetches. Maybe a few Harsh Mentors to add some more ability hate. Probably too many 3 drops in my list, but an interesting idea!
The deck can have its good and slow starting hands, still the flexibility of burn to work as removal is great and can often give enough time for the finishers to enter the battle field.
Also, the multiple life gaining sources support this plan. It isnt bad to crash an exerted Glory-Bound Initiate for it.
There are times that lategame Champions and Lieutenants are just bodies for blocking... while the burn clock keeps ticking
Interesting suggestions, I will try them
I also primarily run Boros.....I run PtE as a must because of some fo the big threats that we need moved that Burn spells cant help. I run Burn as my primarily for a long time and over on the Burn forum PtE has become a must at least in side because 3 damage just isnt enough then factor in possible cards that bring creatures back fast or card like Kitchen Finks that can combo off into infinite life or delay us enough for them to do other stuff. I understand your reasoning for running Burn stuff over PtE and from my experience running many different Zoo variants PtE has been more handy in the long run. That said if your finding the Burn cards more helpful more power to ya.
All in all I really like you deck. As for splitting the discussion, the Company build has been the most talked about/uesd on here but other veraitions like mine have trickled in and out. I mentioned in another post the awesome versatility Human builds can be from 5 color to 1 color from quick/speed zoo to midrange or even a DnT/Control/denial type build. Options are a plenty. Whenever people popped into here with different builds I enjoy hearing their experiences and reasoning as also others do too. There is now specific 75 you have to use. We can all help each other, get different ideas and see whats work/no worked.
Remember that a bolted Kitchen Finks while Soul-scar mage is on the battlefield wont return.
I understand the worry about fatties, as there are several that are problematic however most of them require work to play or take some time to get in play, which means that you have some time to get the game close to be finished.
Personally im never sad to draw a Path, however I feel comfortable with it in the sb.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Voltaic Brawler
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Rogue Refiner
4 Mantis Rider
4 Reflector Mage
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Negate
1 Rest in Peace
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 War Priest of Thune
2 Vithian Renegades
3 Arashin Cleric
As you can see, there have been a few shifts at the 2 drop slot. Gone are the grindy card advantage engines of Duskwatch Recruiter and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and in their spot is the highly aggressive Voltaic Brawler. With that change, I wanted to find a way to keep at least some card advantage in the deck, as I don't like relying purely on Collected Company. So I'm trying out Rogue Refiner. It's nice because it simply draws a card on ETB. No need for it to untap, no need for something juicy to be in the graveyard...no external conditions required. Not only that, but it's a decent body AND it provides extra energy to pump into Voltaic Brawler. So I think those additions go very nicely hand in hand.
In the sideboard, you'll notice the addition of Vithian Renegades. I wanted targeted artifact removal for annoying stuff like Aether Vial and Ensnaring Bridge. And while I could get more card coverage with something like Reclamation Sage, I really like sticking with the Humans theme as much as possible. And heck, it paid off in my very first game drawing it - I had 2 Champion of the Parish on board against BW Death and Taxes with a Vial on 2 and an otherwise empty board. I play Renegades, target the Vial, pump the two Champs (one of them to 3/3). They Vial in a Thalia in response and I attack with the 3/3 Champ. A couple of turns later, I Collected Company into a pair of Thalia's Lieutenants, making Renegades a 5/4 and forcing them to double block it with the aforementioned Thalia along with a Wasteland Strangler, effectively making Renegades a 3 for 1. Scenarios like that are exactly why I wanted to stick with the Human theme, as it ended up being very relevant. Obviously it may or may not be worth the extra sideboard slots, especially in modern, but I've built the deck in a way that I have a couple of flex spots to play with.
All in all, in my initial testing with Voltaic Brawler and Rogue Refiner, I've been quite pleased. Brawler is a brick house on its own, and is great against otherwise annoying road blocks like Young Pyromancer and various other token spells. With any single lord or exalted trigger, it's a 5/4 trampler for 2, which is pretty dang close to being a Tarmogoyf when attacking. I think the aggressive slant of the 2 drop slot is going to pay dividends - as much as I love Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and to a lesser extent, Duskwatch Recruiter, they're often not what I want in the early game when I wanna get the opponent on the back foot. But I still love my card advantage, so we'll see how Rogue Refiner does. So far it's been a card that I am very happy to draw and play, so it's promising so far. I'll definitely be testing out both Mantis Rider decks and see how they compare in the long run.
Round 1 vs. Affinity. I keep a 1 lander on the draw. I peel 7 lands in 8 draws and lose to mana flood. He draws some gas and his Etched Champion has my 1 threat in check (a Thalia's Lieutenant). In the next game, I have a Collected Company and play it, putting double Orzhov Pontiff into play. He had to read the card. Before that was some Path to Exile and Reflector Mage and I get there with some medium beats. In the last game, I have some defense again, but he goes in for 6 poison with a Cranial Plating while I'm tapped out. I don't mind much because I have pressure AND Path to Exile for next turn. Casting an Orzhov Pontiff for +1/+1 will knock him down 14 life to 3, so I hold up Path to Exile instead (I only have 1 White source and 2 Cavern of Souls (drew a total of 7 to 1 CoCo in this match). He draws and then plays...wait for it...Thoughtseize and I scoop. Maybe I should make him take the Path to Exile, but I doubt he is that stupid to take the Pontiff over it when I have nothing else. I told him that it was good he had that in his opener. He said he top decked it. 1-2.
Round 2 vs. Abzan Traverse. After some mulls, I get run over by a Grim Flayer and a Tarmogoyf. In the next game, I mull again, but come back with 3 consecutive Collected Company. Does that make up for Round 1? I get there, despite the first one getting a single Thalia's Lieutenant. The others are ridiculous. In the last game, Rest in Peace just destroys him. I draw another, but don't play it. I think that was a mistake, but I have enough pressure to get past a few Souls tokens. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. Zoo. In the first game, he just rushes me. I Collected Company for some defense, but with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben being my largest creature, I can't get there. In the next game, he keeps the pressure on, but I have some Reflector Mages. The problem? After I Sin Collector him, taking a Lightning Bolt, his next 3 draws are Dromoka's Command and double Path to Exile, which take both of my Mirran Crusaders. I CoCo, getting a Noble Hierarch and an Avacyn's Pilgrim. It's somewhat close again, but he just has larger creatures. I seriously need something like double Thalia's Lieutenant and some early Champion of the Parish. Rough beats. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. BW Planeswalker Pox. He gets stuck on 2 land, but I have no pressure. I Sin Collector a Fatal Push to see double Liliana of the Veil, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Sorin. I don't have much pressure and when he's at 2 life, he gets the lands, makes me sacrifice some creatures with Lilies and then gets me low with the other Planeswalkers. He's over 20 when he wins. In the next game, I land a turn 2 Mayor of Avabruck. It ends up flipping. He ends up doing triple Smallpox, which has ruined me in the past, but I draw some lands, have a Noble Hierarch and keep sacrificing Wolves to the Pox. I end up getting there with that Werewolf. In the last game, I have just enough disruption, with a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to him having 4 land in play with double Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Wrath of God. Whew! Lucky me. I only had 2 land in play, but the next card was a land to put in Mirran Crusader if I got board wiped. I don't know if it would have been enough, but I don't have to know because he had 3 five drops because of the Thalia tax and only 4 land. 2-1.
Rough evening for me as I have been going 3-1 for the past 2 months or so here. But I'm usually on Titanshift.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It hits Merfolk, Elves, Affi, and more out of the radar decks like Infect, Cheerios, Bogles, Lantern. It fixes the issue of Izzet Staticaster not being able to do its job through lord effects or pump effects. The MUs I quote are mostly even or slightly unfavorable (depending on the toss and how G1 went), so EE ain't a cute option. It is denied by our own Stony Silences but it doesn't matter, any of these cards alone wins us the game.
I did make a split with Blessed Alliance, because besides Burn and E Tron, the applications of both cards overlap.
Another card I want to bring to the table is the good old Disenchant. In case of Blood Moon and Nexus environments, it's clearly a better choice than Rec Sage, Fragmentize, Vithian Ren. In my list, I don't run a basic Forest, so Qasali Pridemage became awkward against Moon effects, Spreading Seas, Fulminator Mages and such. Decks that involve such problematic matters are Merfolk, Elves, LE, U Moon, Ponza, Boros Prison, some BGx decks, Affi, Infect, Delver, Saheeli combo, various Jeskais....
Just food for thought.
For instance, running a single Mishra's Bauble and Darksteel Citadel to make the first one significantly less bad main deck in the case where you don't need Engineered Explosives (Either to just draw a card and see your opponent's next draw if you don't really need anything in particular, or Citadel if you really want to guarantee that you make that 4th mana drop for Collected Company on the next turn), and in the side deck using Dispeller's Capsule and Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt as enchantment/graveyard hate, along with a single Pithing Needle for devoted druid combo, as well Gavony Township/Knightfall/Planeswalker based win conditions and a Chalice of the Void for Restore Balance and Living End (X=0) or control (x=1) (which can be cast through using Cavern of Souls) as they can be fetched by Trinket Mage.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Sin Collector
4 Reflector Mage
4 Trinket Mage
Artifacts:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mishra's Bauble
3 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
Lands:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Darksteel Citadel
3x Stony Silence
3x Aven Mindcensor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Path to Exile
2x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1x Disenchanter's Capsule
2x Dusk // Dawn
I gave this a quick try online against Naya Zoo and Jeskai Control, and Trinket Mage was a star in both matches, getting Engineered Explosives against Zoo, which completely turned around round 1. I didn't draw it round 2, but I would have been happy to topdeck at any point in the game, but the deck just won on its own before I drew it.
Against Jeskai Control I played it turn 2, but I went had no idea what they were playing, so I just grabbed my Darksteel Citadel which let me Collected Company Turn 3, for a Sin Collector and a Thalia, which showed Emrakul, Double Reflector Mage, and land with no non-creature spells. So I just went full aggro and ran them over before they topdecked verdict.
Game 2 I put in Pithing Needle, and Chalice of the Void. I got a fairly good aggro start though, and went with that, playing turn 3 Sin Collector to scout for Verdict/Wrath of God instead of Trinket Mage. Turn 4 was Collected Company, which hit Trinket mage #2 and a Hierarch, so I grabbed Chalice of the Void, then on 5 went for Sin Collector taking Cryptic Command, and then Chaliced for X = 1, at which point they conceded.
Very small sample size, and I did get quite fortunate, but I did like the feel of the Trinket Mage package, and I'll definitely test it some more once I have the time.
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Reflector Mage
2 Sin Collector
Spells (8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Razorverge Thicket
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Stony Silence
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Eternal Witness
General thoughts/comments
• The Humans deck can be “fast”, which was a comment several of my opponents made. In some games having the Champion, Mana dork, Lieutenant, Mayor, 3 land opening hand felt pretty unbeatable on the play.
• The Humans deck can also disrupt and stall. I played Grixis Death’s Shadow Round 8, and fought through Kolaghan’s Command, Fatal Push, Thoughtseize, both three drop Lili’s, Gurmag Angler and Death’s Shadows. Even with all of this, I was able to keep the pressure up with Reflector Mages bouncing things, making big threats, and then landing Mirran Crusader, which is the trump card. A high creature count definitely helps to keep topdecking something to put on the board until you hit a Collected Company.
• Thalia and Thalia are great. Thalia Guardian of Thraben is sometimes a pain for us, but I feel she definitely messes up things for our opponents more often than for us. They really slow our opponent down, and help us press home a quick start and keep the pressure on.
Matchups I’d like thoughts/help on
• Valakut/Scapeshift.
This feels like a terrible matchup. I was 1-2 against it, but my win came from my opponent having 8-9 ands and no payoff in either game. The other two games I couldn’t do anything, they just gathered their lands, played a Sakura Tribe Elder and then boom 18 damage pointed at my head (you’re almost certainly taking 2 damage from lands in this deck every game, and usually more). As Canuckistan1 posted, I’m in need of ideas for this matchup. Specific hate through a Meddling Mage is no good as they have so many ways to ramp (Khalni Heart, Sakura Tribe, Hour of Promise, Scapeshift, Primetime, Farseek, Search for Tomorrow), and you probably need to save the hate for Anger of the Gods. I can’t see a creature that fits what we need, Kambal and Sin Collector are helpful along with the Thalia’s, but it just doesn’t feel enough. Do we have to go for a non-creature spell like Negate or Unified Will to give us the catch-all answer we need in this matchup, or a Repel the Abominable or two?
• Burn.
With our land base I think we help them quite a bit, and we need a quick start to keep up. My opponent played the match well I thought as he went after my creatures early to stop me developing any kind of threat, and then went after my face in the later turns. He also had mainboard Searing Blood which did good work against me. I didn’t bring much in the sideboard for Burn – Kambal was my hope, but I didn’t see him. I know people have talked about life-gaining Humans on here as a sideboard option, maybe something in that as our mana base typically leaves us at 18 if not 15 some games. What do people bring in for Burn?
The other matchups I had felt okay.
• Affinity is a race, being on the play is huge to develop a board or get disruption down before they dump their hand.
• UR Tron was interesting, but felt too slow against us if they don’t Tron – I got caught out with Kozilek’s Return as I wasn’t familiar with the matchup, and Ugin is game over, but it seemed to take a while to get itself setup, which we can take advantage of.
• Dredge was fine, lose game 1, bring in hate, and draw your disruptive creatures. Again, Thalia put in work here, making creatures enter tapped and then bouncing them back to my opponent’s hand with a Reflector Mage.
• Death’s Shadow is a grindfest, Rest in Peace did a lot of work, as did Eternal Witness bringing back a Thoughtseized 2mana Thalia to slow him down. Reflector Mage is great here too, and Mirran Crusader forces them to be running Bolt or a sweeper.
Moving Forward
• The 2 drop slot is a bit of an issue for Bant Black. Red has some good choices here – Harsh Mentor, Kari Zev, Voltaic Brawler all have merit, and I’d consider any of them if they were Bant colours. Of the available options, Dark Confidant interests me because card draw is fantastic, but my main concern is that he is black, which is our 4th colour (mainly due to Noble Hierarch not tapping for black), which could be awkward if we want him out turn 2. Anyone have any spicy tech at 2CMC? On my shortlist are Grand Abolisher, Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Skyship Plunderer.
• Some draws can feel a little awkward as our curve takes a dip at 2CMC. The hands where you have a mana dork, 2 lands and three drops feel awful if they have removal for your dork. Not sure what the answer is here, I think it’s a result of the colours and deck. Functional reprint of Thalia’s Lieutenant in Ixalan would be nice!
• Mayor of Avabruck. I guess he kind of sums up the previous two points. I feel for some people he is just in as the 59th and 60th cards because he is a two drop and offers an anthem. I do like him, and played three in my list. He is pretty bad on his own, but also won me several games due to his extra pump.
• Changes to mainboard – I want to try something more aggressive. Until someone finds a good idea for Valakut/Scapeshift I think the best way forward is to get under some of these problematic decks, and as Kingcars said be more proactive. I’m going to go up to 4 Mayors, and add in a couple of Silverblade Paladins. Giving double strike to a big Champion or Lieutenant seems ideal for speeding up the clock, and 3 Mana Thalia and Anafenza are more than happy to have double strike. Drop an Avacyn’s Pilgrim and move the Mirran Crusaders to the side, as they are good against Death's Shadow and Dredge, but worse against other decks that don't run heavy green or black.
Ramble over, I’ll try and tidy this up later.
Also - thoughts on 3 or 4 Path to Exile main deck? I think we want the 4 copies in the 75, but is a good idea to put the 4th in the sideboard so we have another slot for control/non-interactive matchups?
My spice of choice at 2 CMC over the last few weeks has been Saffi Eriksdotter, Qasali Pridemage, and Phantasmal Image. Image is one of the highest-upside cards in the deck, but it's also terrible in other situations. I'll almost certainly end up cutting it for a Mayor before bringing it to the local tourney in a few days. Saffi isn't a very aggressive card, but the wording on her ability means that we can protect important creatures like Anafenza or either Thalia while generating another EtB trigger for Champs and Lieutenants. Pridemage's utility is well known; whether one merits a maindeck slot is a meta call, and for me, the answer is yes.
I've been playing a 3/1 main/side split for Path. 3 Paths and the massive advantage of Reflector Mage is more than enough for creature-heavy matchups, which tend to be favorable in the first place. In place of the 4th Path, I'm maining an Echoing Truth, which provides a second maindeck answer (alongside Pridemage) to cards like Bridge, Worship, and Phyrexian Unlife, along with its other applications: sweeping tokens, bouncing planeswalkers, Delve creatures, Griselbrand, or multiples of whatever the enemy is running.
My spice of choice at 2 CMC over the last few weeks has been Saffi Eriksdotter, Qasali Pridemage, and Phantasmal Image. Image is one of the highest-upside cards in the deck, but it's also terrible in other situations. I'll almost certainly end up cutting it for a Mayor before bringing it to the local tourney in a few days. Saffi isn't a very aggressive card, but the wording on her ability means that we can protect important creatures like Anafenza or either Thalia while generating another EtB trigger for Champs and Lieutenants. Pridemage's utility is well known; whether one merits a maindeck slot is a meta call, and for me, the answer is yes.
I've been playing a 3/1 main/side split for Path. 3 Paths and the massive advantage of Reflector Mage seems to be more than enough for creature-heavy matchups, which tend to be favorable in the first place. In place of the 4th Path, I'm maining an Echoing Truth, which provides a second maindeck answer (alongside Pridemage) to cards like Bridge, Worship, and Phyrexian Unlife, along with its other applications: sweeping tokens, bouncing planeswalkers, Delve creatures, Griselbrand, or multiples of whatever the enemy is running.
I think that Negate is a generally good sideboard card to have regardless, as it hits a lot of the decks we're weak against. But outside of that, we'd really have to look at something like Runed Halo or Leyline of Sanctity to increase percentage points in this matchup. It's just a case of the metagame of Modern being super wide, so it's hard/impossible to prepare for EVERYTHING.
You'll get a lot of differing opinions on this, but I'm a fan of Arashin Cleric. It's cheap, easy on the mana, blocks well, and has very concrete value since its effect is upon ETB. A lot of the other options are too expensive or too situational for my liking and don't provide enough upside to make up for it. I like to lean out my deck (take out the slower, more expensive stuff) against Burn because our individual card quality is higher, so the main thing we'll lose to is not being able to hold off the early pressure. Things should be stabilized by turn 3 or turn 4. You want to get on the board early and easily against decks like Burn and force them to have specific answers at specific times.
The bant black list that I have been trying, which I posted a page or two back, runs Skyship Plunderer at the 2 spot. The redless 4C deck definitely struggles with evasion, so Plunderer helps fill that gap. It also has the ability to take over a game by itself, which is nice. But it's still not quite to the level of Kari Zev, Skyship Raider or Voltaic Brawler. This is one of the reasons why I prefer the Mantis Rider deck; it aggros much better at the 2 drop slot, and the 3 drop slot is also more aggressive and less situational. Sin Collector is simply not good enough to be maindeck in my opinion (outside of specific metas, obviously). Anafenza, the Foremost (the #1 biggest draw to splashing black, imo) is a total house but can't be played in multiples. The rest of the good 3 drop options are also available to the Mantis Rider deck. The main upside of the black version is the sideboard, which isn't *THAT* much better. Blue gets counter spells, Izzet Staticaster and Meddling Mage, so it's close.
This could be for most likely one of two reasons:
1) Keeping too many hands that are soft to T1 removal.
2) The curve of the deck is a bit off.
I obviously can't comment on #1, but on #2, I personally run 10 1 drops, 11 2 drops and 10 3 drops. It looks like your configuration is 11 1 drops, 9 2 drops and 11 3 drops. So maybe the 2 cmc spot is a little bit light.
As for the last part, I actually don't think Humans needs more lords. I think Humans needs more standalone great 2 drops (and I would love a 3 drop that could better fill the 9th and 10th 3 drop slots, but that's another discussion), which is why I've been advocating Kari Zev, Skyship Raider and Voltaic Brawler. It's great to have lord effects, but with how much removal is out there, we need threats that can stand on their own. As I discussed above, this is one of the reasons to run red instead of black, in my opinion.
Even though I have been slowly trimming him from my lists (started at 4, now at 2), I still think it's a great card. There is a bit of an art when it comes to knowing when to flip him and when not to flip him. Do not underestimate the flip side of Mayor, as it can very easily take over a game.
As I mentioned before, the red splash is definitely more aggressive than the black splash, so if you have the ability and desire to make the switch, I would definitely recommend it. Silverblade Paladin is a tricky proposition with how much removal is floating around these days, but I'd be interested in hearing how it performs. I feel like the double strike would be most relevant with evasive cards, as the ground pounders can easily be chump blocked.
I run 4 in the main. We will always need a card that can unconditionally clear a wide swath of blockers in the format. I wouldn't run less than 3 main and would highly recommend the 4th if it can be squeezed in. I also think that, especially in such a wide meta like Modern, it's very important to have a "generically good" main deck configuration with cards that are also easy to side out. When I'm up against a control deck, for example, it's easy to take out 4 Paths and bring in 4 Negate. But against almost every other deck, Path is a key piece to have regularly.
It's not a bad idea to play the better SB card in a given list. As long as I play 27 creatures, I'm fine with 4 Cocos, and I usually cut 1 when I go lower than 27, which is specific to a very few MUs. With better stand-alone creatures and no combo, we're not a Coco deck comparable to Elves or Vizier, where they need the critical mass of creatures even post-SB.
Not running a basic Forest has nothing to do with casting Coco in a non-Moon situation. I play all the green sources I need to cast Coco: it's highly unlikely to have 4 mana sources but no green.
Now yes, Moon is a problem, and it is one even with a basic forest to be fair. Fulmi is also incredibly annoying from the moment there's a fourth colour in the list. My cut of the forest is greedy, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's a mistake in my list or in the current metagame, where Moon decks aren't at the top. I just bring the good news it's doable, and that I'll get back to a forest when the meta shifts to Moons.
No and I won't. Explosives are a great answer to fast decks (see the archetypes I mentionned), while Trinket is the slowest thing ever. It's already bad in UB Tezz, and hardly decent in Ux Tron, plus the SB slots are super tight in Humans.
Citadel in a 4 colour deck is bad. Bauble is only playable when built around (Artifact-centric, Delirium, Tarmo), not as a random target for a bad creature.
Playing 4 in your list is obviously a stretch to test the card, but even as a one-of, there's too many MUs where Explosives is useless. If I were you I'd drop the idea right away, the card received not enough support these last years, and is played nowhere because it became obsolete material a while ago.
@WanganMidnight
Your impressions are accurate, SavageGaul and Kingcars brought trustful advice.
I would add the 2-drop slot is also a matter of meta at this point. Most options players propose here (along with a great personal feedback) are playable and can make the cut. So either a bomb is printed and everybody will play 4 copies (2-3 for a Legend), or each meta we expect will drive our choices.
Burn consistency is its numero uno strength in the format. While Humans need to draw good SB cards, Burn players just have to draw average. Path in the opening hand is the best start to have. If you deal with their only beater, then you don't have to play creatures in curve, so you can fetch tapped lands and curve your creatures one turn late.
The one card that may break them in half is Leyline of Sanctity, all the other cards just help but don't steal the game on their own. Auriok Champion on T2 is probably the best play you can make, as it's a X-for-1 they can't compensate easily: it blocks their first attacker, punishes them for playing creatures, and can't prevent all the lifegain since there's more creatures than Skullcrack effects in the game.
Valakut isn't a bad MU if your deck is built to fight combo decks. Kambal is over-estimated, so even though it seems to fight combos well, it doesn't combat them all equally well. Counterspells do. Collective Brutality would be a fine option for Burn, creatureless combos and control. The obvious and brainless human/creature options aren't necessarily the better SB options, which leads back to my comment about Disenchant...
The 4th Path in the SB is completely fine, it's a metagame call.
Agree that my curve was a little off, which probably led to some weak keeps. I think that a strong 2-drop could make a big difference, maybe a pirate from Ixalan will help this slot? I do like the idea of Skyship Plunderer, I had a WU Humans deck in standard which I was trialling when Marvel was legal, and Plunderer was an good card there.
Some good points made about evasion, which Bant Black lacks. I'll try Silverblade Paladin, but might need to try something else to get the damage through. My trawl through Gatherer threw up some weird and wonderful humans - Captain of the Mists, Bant Battlemage and Skinshifter, which offer evasion for mana. Maulfist Revolutionary is certainly strong in standard WG Humans, and trample is helpful.
Also Jhessian Infiltrator is all about evasion.
Some interesting points here, which I agree with. The two drop slot could do with a standout card alongside the pump and Thalia options.
Auriok Champion is on my radar as an anti-red card. As you said, Burn just needs an average draw and they feel like they are favoured, they definitely punish weak or slow keeps. She's not quite Ondu Cleric for Allies, but might be worth a try for red matchups.
I think you might be right, for Valakut countermagic is the answer. Kambal, Sin Collector and Negate/Mana Leak/Unified Will should be enough disruption to slow them down.
As for Disenchant, it's a great single card answer, albeit one that does not come attached to a creature. Meta call I guess if you really need single target removal over broader artifact hate like Stony and Kataki, and narrower options like Qasali, Rec Sage, War Priest and Renegades don't fit your deck.
1. Burn wins with redundancy and consistent damage however whats even more key is the timing. Example, if you bring in Feed the Clan beware most people dont have more then 2 to 3 life gain Instants yet Burn runs 4 to 8 Skullcrack/Atarka's so timing when you gain that life is key cause lots of times Burn is waiting for it. 2 to 3 vs 4 to 8, odds favor Burn.
2. Skullcrack and Path has helped neutralize some what Kor and Auriok and can do to Burn.
3. Leyline is a good card when you can get it turn 0 to slow Burn a few turns but good luck if you have to hard cast it as Burn generally sides in Artifact/Enchantment answers.
4. Burn preys on decks like Humans cause it has a bunch of 2 for 1 cards that give it advantage like Searing Blaze and/or Searing Blood creature kill face damage, Smash to Smithereens/Destructive Revelry knock out a hate card and do damage, Skullcrack/Atarka's stop life gain and damage to face.
5. Multi color decks that take 4-6 damage the first 2 turns really help Burn. Heck 1 guy who knew I was playing Burn and still did 9 damage for me.......I know fetching basics isnt always an option but cards like Inspiring Vantage do help.
So how to beat Burn using the Human shell....
Option 1 out race using a midrange or 22-24 land build, not likely.
Option 2 side in life gain or anti Burn stuff, possible but got to time it right and heck just draw that card, 2 or 3 out of 60 when you need it, rough.
Option 3 accept the loss and just fold, no way Im a fighter
Consider your meta and how much you see Burn, is it worth it to waste spots on an already tough match cause ya cant side for everything.
When I run Humans and have to deal with Burn, game 1 if Burn goes first its almost always a loss unless they mana flood or just have 1 land until I own the board and attack quick. I run a 20 land speed/blitz style Humans and if I go first the match up isnt as bad as I can sometimes out race. In games 2 and 3 since I run 4 Leylines for Grixis and a few other decks I use them here but if I dont get it turn 0 it wont do much.
Now each situation is different and this is some general info/tips but not hard fast rules for those that run a midrange/22-24 land build.
1. Lets say Burn goes first and drops turn 2 Eidolon taping them out then on your turn 2 you drop land if you have Feed the Clan or Hereos' Reunion use it even if its an Instant and on your turn. That extra life can buy you and extra turn or 2 will help you stabilize the board and possibly get that 4 or 5 land out to do something big like your creatures are now out of Bolt range and you can over run Burn. Watch for Deflecting Palm if your in game 2 or
3. If in game 2 or 3 you and wanna cast lifegain and you see 2 or 3 open mana good chance you could be baited into Skullcrack. There are times its better to cast it their turn after their tapped out or in response to something that taps them out.
2. Burn has trouble with the redundancy of Merfolk and all those Lords pumping creatures out of Bolt range and the ability to lock out their White or Green mana source slowing down Burn since at least 1/3 of the deck needs that 2nd color land. How does this apply to Humans, Land destruction lands and stabilizing the board.
3. The majority of Burn players do not run sweepers like Anger, Flamebreak, Volcanic Fallout at this time but has done so in the past and will again in the future if needed. Other decks that are quick like Elves, Affinity, Speed Zoo can give Burn issues. What can a slower deck take from that, Burn is more worried about Tron, Shadow and big creatures so Path can help them there and Palm can be a game ender. Try to focus more on equal pumping with Thalia's to whatevers on the board rather then having Thalia get big and attacking with 1 big creature that can be hit with Palm.
Now please dont pull the "well if you do this I can do that" stuff cause we can go on all day with you counter my move then I counter your counter and so on. These are tips not the gospel. Good luck I hope some of this helps.