1 - Mana dorks help you cast Coco with a Thicket being your 1st ->> 3rd land drop. Perfect manabases don't exist in modern anyway, even less in an aggro deck that runs 4-drops and 4 colours.
1b - You're indeed running too many duals. Play 8 fetchlands and 4 shocklands, and you'll be good. You can play a fifth shockland but I don't advise it in Bant Black. Bant Red is another story because Mantis Rider is in 2 tertiary colors (U+R), while Anafenza is in only 1 tertiary color (B).
Collector isn't enough alone VS LE, Ad Naus, or Storm. Of course you bring the card in if you run it, it's probably better than Canonist overall. Med Mage is good too. The main thing about combo is you want several hate cards in one game to win, not just one. And a good clock.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Thanks for the reply - the extra fetches make sense to try and thin the deck for Collected Company, as do the Thickets for the early land drops. Will try cutting some Temple Gardens for Flooded Strands.
I guess Eldrazi is about having a wide aggressive start or a utility start into CoCo - I meant 3CMC Thalia, Heretic Cathar on turn 2 off a mana dork, particularly on the play.
Anything you think is majorly missing from my sideboard - I appreciate that you can't cover every deck in 15 cards, but any recommendations for the more 'unfair' matchups would be appreciated.
I played against Jeskai Saheeli and got spanked... Was wondering what I could do to improve the matchup? They also run a few angers and a supreme verdict in their side from my knowledge.
It's one of these MUs where you need your SB cards in addition to a decent clock. Mulligan aggressively.
What do you have in your SB for this MU ?
Mana Leak is a great counterspell because you want to be able to counter Saheeli and the cat. One of those Mus where it's better than Sin Collector or Negate. The latter is fine though since you'll keep Path in your main.
Thalias, Med Mage, Mantis, a great clock on the play, a key SB card on the draw, all this is good in my list.
The tricky part with the PW MUs (like all UWx decks) is that you need to stick to one plan pretty early and be sure you don't mess up. If you attack the PW, you gotta be sure that you have more chances to deal with it than kill your opponent. Their combo can be sequenced both ways and win on the spot, so they have twice as many chances to top deck the combo (in comp to say Counter Company, similar MU, rather unfavorable fyi), so I'd play as cautiously as possible, slow roll my plays and keep mana open, bluff counterspells and removal in the midgame.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I was playing WGub Humans last weekend vs GWru Saheeli Evolution and realized that Big Thalia shuts down twin-esque combos such as Copycat since all the copies enter the battlefield tapped and can't attack before getting exiled at end of turn. Getting Big T to stick against Jeskai will be harder, but she's a very reasonable main deck inclusion if you want to bolster your chances in game 1.
I was playing WGub Humans last weekend vs GWru Saheeli Evolution and realized that Big Thalia shuts down twin-esque combos such as Copycat since all the copies enter the battlefield tapped and can't attack before getting exiled at end of turn. Getting Big T to stick against Jeskai will be harder, but she's a very reasonable main deck inclusion if you want to bolster your chances in game 1.
Big Thalia is awesome that way. It's probably elicited more "oh..." responses than any other card, as opponents take a second look at her and realize that she needs to be dealt with before they can combo off.
I still only run her as a one-of, due to potential legendary clashes, her underwhelming nature in certain matchups, and the potency of other three-drop Humans, but she absolutely puts in work.
My SB has 2 unified wills and 2 mana leaks as my counter spells. Otherwise, I don't have much in the sb against control. I run 2 sin collectors mb. I also use big Thalia, but it usually dies before it does anything to stop the combo. I was thinking of running Thrun in the side out of desperation...
Little Thalia into Big Thalia is an interesting line against combo decks, had a scoop in response to it once!
Think Big Thalia has some good general utility, be it stopping land drops (tapped fetches are pretty brutal), or blockers coming in tapped she seems pretty useful. 2 toughness isn't great as she won't grow out of anger/bolt range easily, but 3 first strike power makes her good in combat. Talking myself into cutting the line Falconer for a 2nd Big Thalia.
I have been interested in building a second modern deck for a while but I have not been able to find one that I could afford (or liked). However, I recently came across this combo-humans list that looks really fun to play. The decklist is as follows:
Would you guys be able to give me some advice on how to improve a deck like this, as I am not used to playing 'fair' decks in modern (I would idealy like to keep the saffi combo though).
Thanks,
You know we have so many good 3 drop options finding that right combo or balance is tough. A lot I guess depends on your meta and the way the rest of the deck is constructed. Now you can also make the clain 2 drop slot is also tough. Now the Lil Thalia into Big Thalia thing Im gonna try out cause that sounds like a lot of fun.
As for the 1 drop Champion is a given but I wish there were more options. I know some like Thraben, Student, Swiftspear, Noble or Pilgrim and heck I run Kytheon which is a good amount of options but Id like to see another power 1 drop that has that great synergy like power (not toughness cause that might be unfair as a 1 drop) equal to number of Humans in play. Maybe its just me but Champion is a great option while others are ok/good.
On the Blood Moon vs Magus I have found running Moon is a much better option because there is less creature removal. Now that doesnt mean if your having success with Magus your wrong its just that Ive run Moon in a few other decks also and in my experience found it as a better option.
Also have y'all run into Bontu's Last Reckoning. I havent seen it yet in Modern but a buddy asked about it since I run a creature heavy aggro Humans deck but I have seen it yet. So any y'all have experiences/info I can pass on.
Also have y'all run into Bontu's Last Reckoning. I havent seen it yet in Modern but a buddy asked about it since I run a creature heavy aggro Humans deck but I have seen it yet. So any y'all have experiences/info I can pass on.
Thanks
Yeah, I got smoked by Reckoning last week against a mill deck. Had no idea that card even existed, so getting my board wiped from 3 mana was very unexpected haha. It's just one of those things you have to be wary of as you commit the board, just like when playing against decks with Anger of the Gods, Supreme Verdict etc.
It's definitely unexpected, and you can't really outpump it like an Anger of the Gods.
At least them having to take a turn off gives us a really good chance to rebuild. If it comes down turn 3 we can CoCo next turn and then play another Human or two after, maybe hit a Sin Collector or Meddling Mage to prevent the second one.
On the Blood Moon vs Magus I have found running Moon is a much better option because there is less creature removal. Now that doesnt mean if your having success with Magus your wrong its just that Ive run Moon in a few other decks also and in my experience found it as a better option.
I'm in a very extreme minority of modern player(s?) that is not a fan of cards like Blood Moon and Stony Silence, at least not in aggressively slanted creature decks. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone drop one of those cards early in a game then still just lose due to the lack of pressure. This is why I prefer options like Kataki, War's Wage and Magus of the Moon - while the opponent is locked out, you put pressure on their life total. Sure, Kataki can be killed, but if he sticks against a deck like Affinity, it's all but impossible to lose. With Stony Silence, they just play some creatures and keep beating you down. Against decks like Tron or Scapeshift, they automatically bring in enchantment removal that you can leave dead in their hand by playing Magus of the Moon instead. In a Humans deck, you're unlikely to win through a resolved Anger of the Gods regardless, so might as well give yourself a better chance of pumping your Champs and Lieutenants to 4 toughness while requiring them to have an answer very quickly. I find that the Humans decks gain their biggest advantages by sticking threats to the board while also interacting with the opponent's gameplan; this is why I prioritize cards like Reflector Mage in the main and cards like War Priest of Thune in the side. Being able to bounce a creature or kill an enchantment while adding 2 power to the board and potentially pumping 1 or more creatures is a far bigger swing than people may realize. I think Magus of the Moon falls in a similar category. Creatures can even be made uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. This isn't even mentioning the fact that creature based cards can be found with Collected Company and Duskwatch Recruiter, which may be an even bigger reason to run them. Having a much higher percentage chance of finding your sideboard card versus it being slightly more vulnerable to removal - I'd personally rather draw them more often and force my opponent to have answers. I'm very much subscribed to the "make them have it" mentality.
It's an interesting discussion to have, given that the Humans Company deck revolves around having a critical mass of creatures, ideally Humans, to go wide and tall, whilst disrupting our opponent's plans. I guess it's finding a balance between having the right answer/effect on a Human/creature, that isn't significantly worse/more expensive than a similar effect on a non-creature card, and accepting that putting effects on creatures opens them up to creature removal.
Playing Collected Company gives us the chance to play some of these answers at instant speed if we need to, and if they are Humans, they also further our plan of pumping Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant. Another interesting point is that creatures such as Sin CollectorReflector Mage and War Priest of Thune are one time effects, so the opponent is maybe less incentivised to remove them if they resolve as 'the damage is done'. None of them have the stats of say an Anafenza, but leaving bodies on the battlefield to be pumped is a nice bonus.
I've found myself building more towards your line of thinking, being proactive is what this deck wants to be, so not diluting your creature count unless you have to seems sensible. That said, I do have 2 Rest in Peace (with a Qasali Pridemage) and 2 Stony Silence (alongside a Kataki, War's Wage), as I feel they are more powerful than creature equivalents and are persistent effects, and do force your opponent to side in their enchantment removal rather than doubling down on creature removal and sweepers, which I assume most decks would like to board in more of against us (and against decks that run them, is probably our main priority to navigate a turn 3 Anger or turn 4 Verdict).
Follow up 'new to Modern' question - are there enough enchantments in Modern for War Priest of Thune to be a general sideboard option, or is he more for certain metas?
Very fair points you bring up. The whole "damage is already done" aspect of the ETB effects is a large part of what makes those cards so good. As for War Priest of Thune, it is more fore the wider MTGO metagame. The most common stuff I hit is along the lines of Blood Moon, Worship and Doubling Season, but there are a lot of fringe decks running around with enchantments that need to be answered. I also fully recognize that something like Reclamation Sage has more coverage on a single card (I run Vithian Renegades in the side as well) but I'm a slight stickler for keeping to the Humans theme as much as possible.
After reading all pages, I suggest that the humans topic should be split into CoCo (several color combinations) and non-CoCo (mostly RW)
Personally, im using a boros brew that takes advantage of several cards in Ammonkhet. And its good to have choices, while CoCo relies on beat down to win, mine can both beat down and burn. That flexibility is worth exploring more IMHO
The main difference is that I choosed to replace PtE with more burn, which thanks to Soul-Scar Mage's influence allows my humans to take down fatties in combat (if they appear) or just aim it to my opponent's face for faster games.
It looks like it would do well when you're drawing the right ratio of humans and spells, and have some explosive starts (a la Burn) that get under some decks that other slower Human builds have trouble with. But at 22 humans I worry about running into hands with more burn than creatures, where Champion and Lieutenant become suboptimal. How often does this come up?
3 copies of Always Watching seems a little clunky outside of its payoff with Initiate. With enough Prowess triggers would Seeker of the way become better than Initiate? If so, it might be worth trading Always Watching for something like 2 more spells (Boros Charm? Smuggler's Copter?) and another Human (Magus of the Moon? Grim Lavamancer?)
1b - You're indeed running too many duals. Play 8 fetchlands and 4 shocklands, and you'll be good. You can play a fifth shockland but I don't advise it in Bant Black. Bant Red is another story because Mantis Rider is in 2 tertiary colors (U+R), while Anafenza is in only 1 tertiary color (B).
2 - Eldrazi decks aren't bad MUs. You should be favoured actually. Path to Exile, Reflector Mage and eventually big enough Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant are good. Collected Company is obviously great at building a bigger board than your opponent's.
Thalia isn't what helps you, they mostly cast creatures.
Collector isn't enough alone VS LE, Ad Naus, or Storm. Of course you bring the card in if you run it, it's probably better than Canonist overall. Med Mage is good too. The main thing about combo is you want several hate cards in one game to win, not just one. And a good clock.
I guess Eldrazi is about having a wide aggressive start or a utility start into CoCo - I meant 3CMC Thalia, Heretic Cathar on turn 2 off a mana dork, particularly on the play.
Anything you think is majorly missing from my sideboard - I appreciate that you can't cover every deck in 15 cards, but any recommendations for the more 'unfair' matchups would be appreciated.
Sin Collector has applications here, as do counterspells like Negate or Mana Leak.
What do you have in your SB for this MU ?
Mana Leak is a great counterspell because you want to be able to counter Saheeli and the cat. One of those Mus where it's better than Sin Collector or Negate. The latter is fine though since you'll keep Path in your main.
Thalias, Med Mage, Mantis, a great clock on the play, a key SB card on the draw, all this is good in my list.
The tricky part with the PW MUs (like all UWx decks) is that you need to stick to one plan pretty early and be sure you don't mess up. If you attack the PW, you gotta be sure that you have more chances to deal with it than kill your opponent. Their combo can be sequenced both ways and win on the spot, so they have twice as many chances to top deck the combo (in comp to say Counter Company, similar MU, rather unfavorable fyi), so I'd play as cautiously as possible, slow roll my plays and keep mana open, bluff counterspells and removal in the midgame.
Big Thalia is awesome that way. It's probably elicited more "oh..." responses than any other card, as opponents take a second look at her and realize that she needs to be dealt with before they can combo off.
I still only run her as a one-of, due to potential legendary clashes, her underwhelming nature in certain matchups, and the potency of other three-drop Humans, but she absolutely puts in work.
Think Big Thalia has some good general utility, be it stopping land drops (tapped fetches are pretty brutal), or blockers coming in tapped she seems pretty useful. 2 toughness isn't great as she won't grow out of anger/bolt range easily, but 3 first strike power makes her good in combat. Talking myself into cutting the line Falconer for a 2nd Big Thalia.
I have been interested in building a second modern deck for a while but I have not been able to find one that I could afford (or liked). However, I recently came across this combo-humans list that looks really fun to play. The decklist is as follows:
Creatures (30)
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Meddling Mage
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Reflector Mage
4 Renegade Ralier
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Trophy Mage
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
Artifacts (2)
2 Blasting Station
Lands (20)
2 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Dispel
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Stony Slience
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Adaptive Automaton
2 Chord of Calling
2 Leyline of Sanctity
Would you guys be able to give me some advice on how to improve a deck like this, as I am not used to playing 'fair' decks in modern (I would idealy like to keep the saffi combo though).
Thanks,
Danr2000
source of decklist: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/722628#paper
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
As for the 1 drop Champion is a given but I wish there were more options. I know some like Thraben, Student, Swiftspear, Noble or Pilgrim and heck I run Kytheon which is a good amount of options but Id like to see another power 1 drop that has that great synergy like power (not toughness cause that might be unfair as a 1 drop) equal to number of Humans in play. Maybe its just me but Champion is a great option while others are ok/good.
On the Blood Moon vs Magus I have found running Moon is a much better option because there is less creature removal. Now that doesnt mean if your having success with Magus your wrong its just that Ive run Moon in a few other decks also and in my experience found it as a better option.
Thanks
Yeah, I got smoked by Reckoning last week against a mill deck. Had no idea that card even existed, so getting my board wiped from 3 mana was very unexpected haha. It's just one of those things you have to be wary of as you commit the board, just like when playing against decks with Anger of the Gods, Supreme Verdict etc.
At least them having to take a turn off gives us a really good chance to rebuild. If it comes down turn 3 we can CoCo next turn and then play another Human or two after, maybe hit a Sin Collector or Meddling Mage to prevent the second one.
I'm in a very extreme minority of modern player(s?) that is not a fan of cards like Blood Moon and Stony Silence, at least not in aggressively slanted creature decks. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone drop one of those cards early in a game then still just lose due to the lack of pressure. This is why I prefer options like Kataki, War's Wage and Magus of the Moon - while the opponent is locked out, you put pressure on their life total. Sure, Kataki can be killed, but if he sticks against a deck like Affinity, it's all but impossible to lose. With Stony Silence, they just play some creatures and keep beating you down. Against decks like Tron or Scapeshift, they automatically bring in enchantment removal that you can leave dead in their hand by playing Magus of the Moon instead. In a Humans deck, you're unlikely to win through a resolved Anger of the Gods regardless, so might as well give yourself a better chance of pumping your Champs and Lieutenants to 4 toughness while requiring them to have an answer very quickly. I find that the Humans decks gain their biggest advantages by sticking threats to the board while also interacting with the opponent's gameplan; this is why I prioritize cards like Reflector Mage in the main and cards like War Priest of Thune in the side. Being able to bounce a creature or kill an enchantment while adding 2 power to the board and potentially pumping 1 or more creatures is a far bigger swing than people may realize. I think Magus of the Moon falls in a similar category. Creatures can even be made uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. This isn't even mentioning the fact that creature based cards can be found with Collected Company and Duskwatch Recruiter, which may be an even bigger reason to run them. Having a much higher percentage chance of finding your sideboard card versus it being slightly more vulnerable to removal - I'd personally rather draw them more often and force my opponent to have answers. I'm very much subscribed to the "make them have it" mentality.
Playing Collected Company gives us the chance to play some of these answers at instant speed if we need to, and if they are Humans, they also further our plan of pumping Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant. Another interesting point is that creatures such as Sin Collector Reflector Mage and War Priest of Thune are one time effects, so the opponent is maybe less incentivised to remove them if they resolve as 'the damage is done'. None of them have the stats of say an Anafenza, but leaving bodies on the battlefield to be pumped is a nice bonus.
I've found myself building more towards your line of thinking, being proactive is what this deck wants to be, so not diluting your creature count unless you have to seems sensible. That said, I do have 2 Rest in Peace (with a Qasali Pridemage) and 2 Stony Silence (alongside a Kataki, War's Wage), as I feel they are more powerful than creature equivalents and are persistent effects, and do force your opponent to side in their enchantment removal rather than doubling down on creature removal and sweepers, which I assume most decks would like to board in more of against us (and against decks that run them, is probably our main priority to navigate a turn 3 Anger or turn 4 Verdict).
Follow up 'new to Modern' question - are there enough enchantments in Modern for War Priest of Thune to be a general sideboard option, or is he more for certain metas?
Personally, im using a boros brew that takes advantage of several cards in Ammonkhet. And its good to have choices, while CoCo relies on beat down to win, mine can both beat down and burn. That flexibility is worth exploring more IMHO
This is my list
4x Arid Mesa (MM3)
2x Boros Charm (C16)
2x Cavern of Souls (MM3)
4x Champion of the Parish (ISD)
4x Flagstones of Trokair (TSP)
4x Glory-Bound Initiate (AKH)
1x Hazoret the Fervent (AKH)
4x Inspiring Vantage (KLD)
4x Lightning Bolt (MM2)
4x Lightning Helix (MMA)
4x Monastery Swiftspear (KTK)
3x Plains (AKH)
1x Ranger of Eos (MM3)
4x Rift Bolt (MMA)
4x Sacred Foundry (GTC)
4x Soul-Scar Mage (AKH)
4x Thalia's Lieutenant (SOI)
Sideboard
2x Grafdigger's Cage (MM3)
3x Harsh Mentor (AKH)
3x Leyline of Sanctity (MM2)
2x Path to Exile (MM3)
2x Rest in Peace (RTR)
1x Revoke Existence (BNG)
The main difference is that I choosed to replace PtE with more burn, which thanks to Soul-Scar Mage's influence allows my humans to take down fatties in combat (if they appear) or just aim it to my opponent's face for faster games.
More details here at tappedoout
It looks like it would do well when you're drawing the right ratio of humans and spells, and have some explosive starts (a la Burn) that get under some decks that other slower Human builds have trouble with. But at 22 humans I worry about running into hands with more burn than creatures, where Champion and Lieutenant become suboptimal. How often does this come up?
3 copies of Always Watching seems a little clunky outside of its payoff with Initiate. With enough Prowess triggers would Seeker of the way become better than Initiate? If so, it might be worth trading Always Watching for something like 2 more spells (Boros Charm? Smuggler's Copter?) and another Human (Magus of the Moon? Grim Lavamancer?)